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MNSpeak: Talk
The $400 Bar
Where else can I see white-hot indie squeakster Joanna Newsom manhandle her giant harp? Where else can I see Bright Eyes and Peter Buck hop up on stage for an impromptu set, with Michael Stipe looking on from the back? Owners Bill and Tom Sullivan, both admired and reviled by scenester cognoscenti, conjure an air of exclusivity at the 400 that some find tantalizing, and others find coldly uninviting. But they bring in some wicked cool national shows, and allow local artists to push the envelope anyone catch last years edgy Vaudeville Laundry dance/comedy/music show? From the Elvis lamp above the bar to the horror-movie basement greenroom, it's the bar everyone loves to hate. But does it really deserve so much collective ire?
133 Reader Comments
hipsters take themselves way too seriously. I've also never even been to the 400. In fact, I kind of miss the viking.
I like going to shows at the 400 Bar. I've seen a lot of great acts there. I've never had a problem with the bar service. It seems like shows at "cool" clubs like the Triple Rock or the Turf Club are full of a bunch of people there to chat with their friends rather than listen to the music. The layout of the 400 Bar keeps the talkers by the bar and away from the audience that goes to music shows to listen to music.
Also, I want that Elvis lamp.
I've played at the 400 many times, and I suppose my reviews are mixed. On the good side: the stage set-up and on-stage sound is excellent. Consistently good sound guys.
On the bad side, it's pretty deafening in the audience and as far as I can tell the bartenders hate everyone.
We played our CD release there earlier this fall with The Alarmists and Spymob and had a ridiculously good time, but that might be despite the club rather than because of the club. Overall, a great local rock club that has avoided Cities 97-ing itself.
Unless you want your local hipster music venue to look and feel like the spanking new coffee shop from Friends, you have to embrace the old-bar scuzz. Bad sightlines are as much a part of the atmosphere at the 400 as bad sitelines are at Fenway Park.
The $6 beer served in a Nyquil cup, however, is totally inexcusable.
hipsters hate paying a lot for drinks because then they can't afford those totally sweet new kicks or tight pants.
I can't even get a beer in my neighbourhood for less than $5.50 unless I want to hang out with old dudes that look like they're truckers/homeless or annoying dipshit college students who live too far from dinkytown to go to frat parties/the library.
I gave it many chances several years ago. The help was way too scowly and/or condescending with too few exceptions, and the drinks were way too expensive. It's not like they did anything that made me want to come back. I'd rather be at a place with a friendlier vibe. I reckon they've lost a fair amount of business due to the attitude & prices, so I can't feel sorry for 'em too much.
This is bordering on the MNSpeak Glossary thread, but what do we mean by "hipster" in this conversation? What is the Twin Cities composite portrait of a hipster? If the Fine Line is "Eden Prairie" is the Triple Rock "hipster"?
I think it is scensters we're talking about here.
Ahhh&400 club management. I remember arriving late for an early - Vic Chesnutt show (in 2000 or 2001). I paid $15 to get in, spent $10 for 2 beers, heard 3 songs and then was told to slam my drink and leave so that they could start collecting money for the next show that night. I was going to get charged another $12 for that show. It was nuts.
On the bright side I saw many incredible shows there, the greatist being Neutral Milk Hotel.
There are music venues without scowling, elitist employees?
I appreciated the fact that they would serve me at the 400 when I was underaged.
Wait. There are "scenesters" and "hipsters"? I liked the world better in high school where we only had to figure out nerds, jocks, greasers, skeezos, stoners, dweebs, dickheads, punks, wangers, wingnuts, poopy faces, dillweeds, and hoes.
This "new" nomenclature is too hard to follow. When I go out, I mostly wear cardigans with zippers. That means I'll a nerdy dillweed.
Jim, the main point is that at the 400 almost every single employee was a scowler. At the other places it's more 50-50.
The opposed take hipsters way more seriously than hipsters themselves do - not to argue semantics, though.
Actually that statement doesn't argue them, but whatever...
All this talk of hipsters and scowling employees is completely beside the point. Let's address the 400 Bar as a music venue, which is the issue that is most important. The 400 Bar is fine as a music venue if there are fewer than 40 people in the room, but it is a complete mess if there are more than that. Kudos to the bookers in that they get good acts with some regularity--but you are doing music fans a disservice by booking high interest acts here. I know you're trying to give us good shows, but the sightlines and crowd control is an utter nightmare. I HEARD Joanna Newsom there, but I didn't even come close to actually seeing any more of her than the top 1/2 inch of her head. I saw the Handsome Family there, only to be stuck with a column more or less up my ass and unable to get away from people talking very loudly around me (unable, in fact, to move at all). When I saw E.L.No there recently I was delighted to discover that it actually has booths (who knew!?), and I enjoyed the show immensely, as I do the Koerner et al shows. But I largely avoid any show that I know will be busy, or else go to those I just can't miss (like Newsom) and leave bitterly disappointed that it wasn't at a better venue, like the Turf Club, the Varsity, the Triple Rock, or First Avenue.
I think I've only been to one show at the 400 over the past year or so -- as opposed to dozens of shows at First Ave, the Entry, the Turf, the Triple Rock, etc. Frankly, I forget the place exists, because they're only open for shows and they seem to book shows for an older audience.
As for the employees, I am fairly certain that at least one of the "bartenders" working the Lemonheads show was not, in fact, a bartender by trade or even by hobby. Learn to mix a drink, kids.
kate - I'm not hip enough to know what a hipster is though. Some questions: is there an age limit on being a hipster? Is a hipster also a "white belter" or is that a scenester or perhaps just a desperate cry for help?
yes, nate, for all practical purposes, a white belter is a hipster. a hipster is almost always a scenester, but a scenester isn't necessarily a hipster . . .
I think some real life examples are required...
hipsters will also never admit to being hipsters, and often times shit talk hipsters
Well then you just go ahead and start calling 'em out, Tmay!
nah, I might accidentally implicate myself and my past life
Goddammit.
Fine. I'm going back to work then!
I would hypothesize that scenesters complain about bad/busy shows at the 400 Bar just to namedrop the band they saw. It's bad when it's busy, but where isn't? The drink prices are kind of high, and I have heard that same sentiment from pretty much everyone, so there's probably some ring of truth to it. Same with the employees...
I guess I second the thoughts above: too expensive, cold and unpleasant, claustrophobic if it's crowded and echo-y if it's not. Just not fun to see bands there. (Oh yeah, and the parking....) But paradoxically I've had a lot of fun seeing bands there. Doesn't matter. They're an institution, they don't care.
My moniker refers to the fact that I was once a hipster, for a short time.
Also, the 400 Bar is going to collapse. Seriously. Look at the brick wall that faces Riverside -- it's bulging a good 6 inches out of plumb. That's trouble, dude.
How about dipster for 'dumbass hipster'.
I think at the Very First Ever MNSpeak Get Together we will notice that very few MNSpeakers are actually hipsters, even if you do wear a white belt.
The 400 just plain sucks on many levels, in my opinion. Loud-in-small-room does not equal good. Especially when you've got the Triple Rock down the street. The Varsity is the best audience spot in town for music (plus it's the only one with a good lighting board which makes even lame bands at least look good). Shoot, ya can even get dry ice on stage at the Varsity!
I'm a hipster. There's no use denying it. I can quote Lenny Bruce and listen to Charlie Parker, and I just can't help myself.
"for all practical purposes, a white belter is a hipster. a hipster is almost always a scenester, but a scenester isn't necessarily a hipster . . ."
- - -
Thank you. For a minute there, I was getting confused.
.
I've only been to the 400 once (The Wedding Present) but had a good experience. I had a stool at one of the side tables, and if I stood on the rungs, I had a pretty good view. I appreciate the character of old bars,
and kind of like dives...but the 400 was much nicer inside than I had any reason to believe it would be from the outside.
Sometimes the Fine Line books shows that draw lots of partying college kids, other times sort of a yuppie/Cities 97...kind of hard to nail down the vibe. But it's also the only place where I've seen musicians smoking cigs/weed on stage during their sets. And this is post-smoking ban. So there's some kind of hippie/screw the man thing going on, the club doesn't seem to sweat it.
The Triple Rock is more a hard-drinkin, loud and volatile crowd in my experience. 3R is whiskey, all the way. First Ave. has more of a typical Minnesotan club vibe, stoic-cool, so hipsters fit in there really well. It's the vodka of MSP clubs--understated, low-key, doesn't try too hard, deceptively smooth but knocks you on your ass.
The white belt went out with the Make-Up in 2000. You kids need to update your referencing.
It's a great place to buy one beer and see a show if you really like the band and they can't get booked anywhere else in a sardine can-like intimate setting with piss-poor unconventional sight lines and EPA Superfund Site slightly neglected bathrooms.
On the other hand, if you really just want to see a band you really like, spend the $12 on a thimble of beer and don't go back till the next band you really like comes to the place. Seems pretty simple.
I miss Bob the bartender, he of the shaved head and 8 inch goatee. Before I got to know him, he scared the living shit out of me, but he turned out to be a great guy. He left and took a job with the railroad, last I heard. Since then it's been tough to get a proper pour on a cocktail.
I love the fact that the 400 pisses so many people off. I love seeing shows there, and even more so, I love playing shows there. Great sound, and great soundguys. Always cold beer on ice in the basement, maybe a dish of M&Ms or trail mix, and no worries about smoking... they treat the bands well.
Sarah Askari wore a white belt to one of the first ever MNSpeak get togethers. The jury is still out on whether it was ironic or not. But then, isn't irony a main tool of the hipster?
Also, I'm going to venture to guess that maybe the staff isn't friendly because:
1) dealing with hipsters
2) hipsters are cheap, and when they feel ripped off by expensive drinks probably won't tip well or at all
3) dealing with hipsters
I love First Ave, Triple Rock and Turf Club the best.
By the way, the bartenders at the Triple Rock are totally friendly and actually show interest in helping the customers.
Having some friends who tour through the Twin Cities once or twice a year, I know they prefer to play the 400, where they have the chance to make some money, rather than the Triple Rock, which apparently pays (next to) jack, ironically enough.
I like a good dive bar, but the 400 puts me over the edge with plastic cups and without Summit on tap. It's like going to Halek's Bar, except you're there to catch a show, not score some meth.
So what's the protocol on talking at shows anyway? I was at a show where some guy was shushing the people around him and boy did that seem odd to me. My friend and I were occasionally swapping quips about the band we were seeing (not often or even very loudly) and the guy interrupted us to tell us to watch and listen rather than talk. I felt like throwing him through the window but we basically just ran him off to the other side of the bar. My thinking is you're at a bar, in public, not your personal listening room. Isn't it to be expected to encounter some ambient noise around you and doesn't that go with the territory of seeing live music at a bar. Am I crazy?
Perhaps MNSpeakers should seek out to create a MNSpeak home bar. A place where blipsters, hipsters, braided-leather-belters, golfers, angry pollsters, gangsters, lamesters, annoyingsters, and awesomesters could all gather in peace, unity, and shared "er-ness."
I vote for the Terminal.
Would the news bunnies be welcome there?
I'm in.
ahaha, people actually go to the terminal?
I think proper protocol would depend on how loud the band is, although Adam, it sounds like you and your buddy were talking but still pretty respectful of those around you.
Generally if you're at a show with a quieter artist/band, I think it's tactful for the people who are talking A LOT to go toward the back of the room and let the people who came to mainly enjoy the music do so up closer to the front of the stage.
If it's Motorhead or Total F***ng Blood, then obviously it doesn't even matter.
At Whiskeytown's show many years ago in the Entry, the ever-cantankerous Ryan Adams chewed out a bunch of yakkers in the Entry, basically saying "we're trying to do a concert here, if you wanna talk there's a coffee shop a couple blocks away," or something to that effect. He was really pissed, but then again, what doesn't piss that guy off?
I don't really mind when people talk a little at a quieter show, but you've gotta admit some people really push the limits. As if we pay money to come and hear you talk, know what I'm sayin'?
By the same token, some of the "shushers" can get a little big for their britches, too.
Also, sidenote: That Bob dude at the 400 was the biggest prick of them all IMO. It seemed like he was having a bad night every night.
I think lots of bands get annoyed by people standing down front shouting at each other during the whole set. So do the people standing around them. I'm talking about people who push and shove their way to the front then never even GLANCE at the stage. WTF?
Then how about that one guy who always gets crazy drunk and starts moshing and shaking his sweat onto everyone, and the crowd clears this leper circle around him? Or maybe you only notice that dude if you're five-feet and a buck o five.
Hmm. I've definitely been annoyed, onstage, by people who stand right in front and yammer incessantly, especially since our music's on the mellow side...in the end, it really comes down to the venue. If its a bar, you have to expect it. Alcohol strips common sense from people quickly. Play a show at a place like the Cedar, however, and you know you'll be able to hear a pin drop between songs. Adjust expectations accordingly, be you performer or onlooker.
...Bob the Bartender was a prick, but only by necessity -- dealing with piss drunk idiots night after night will help you develop that particular impression. If you ever got the chance to talk to him, though, he was a gentle bear of a guy, soft spoken and genuinely courteous.
Seeing Chris Koza at the Cedar last month, it was uncomfortably quiet. It was like going to a recital, complete with golf claps.
I'm not saying you should be disrespectful to the performers or others, but some of those really hardcore shushers are a little off base. Plus, certain venues simply don't give off the vibe of a nice, quiet show. A quiet 400 show, for example, seems like eating lobster at a White Castle. It just don't fit!
About Koza though, it didn't seem to make him or the band uncomfortable and the show was quite kick ass. I think it all takes a little fluidity on the part of the audience to accept any given night of music for what it is. While quiet, it also was one of the best shows I've seen in a long time.
One of the best shows I've ever seen was at the 400 Bar. Other than that, I've only been there a handful of times (which I suppose works to the benefit that I can remember every show I've seen there).
The problem with the bar is that it isn't exactly welcoming, and while it does book local bands, it doesn't really seem to give a shit about being a part of the local music community. It's very standoffish and cold. The drinks are too expensive, which I can generally accept if the staff is friendly, but they're not. Last time I was there, it was $5 for a Budweiser, and also, I overheard someone ask the door guy if they could leave and come back, and he said they could if they left their ID, so they also prevent you from going somewhere cheaper to drink if you're not into the band that's playing.
In essence, let's hope MunsingW is right and that place falls in on itself, sooner rather than later.
As for talking during shows, I generally don't have a problem with it, but that's something that's more dependent on what kind of music is playing. If it's something quiet/mellow, and your conversation is louder than the music, I'm going to feel quite bothered by it.
The ambient noise of conversations going on does make for a better experience overall, though, between songs, than if nobody is talking at all.
The last time I went to the 400 Bar I got toilet paper stuck in my ear. I couldn't get it out for days.
mmmmm, alcohol strips... just pop 'em your mouth and go!
Those 400 Club bartenders are bad news. Turf Club, 331 Club, Triple Rock all have over 50% friendly bartenders - in fact, I think even Hexagon does.
someday, I'm gonna start the 500 bar just to best them
Bob the Bartender was a prick, but only by necessity -- dealing with piss drunk idiots night after night will help you develop that particular impression.
Haven't we established it's damn near impossible to actually get drunk at the 400?
Alcohol Strips... patent pending!
nateek, glad you liked the Cedar show. It was crazy-quiet between songs, which is always kind of disconcerting, and makes me feel like I'm under a magnifying glass. But at the same time the vibe was so electric, and the crowd seemed to really be soaking everything up. When you're forced to sit in chairs, it makes everyone a little meeker, but the energy was still there despite the quietude. Recently we had a show at the Entry, which was complete 180 of course, but equally fun.
I personally enjoy the shifting vibes from venue to venue... on tour, it's like a social experiment of some kind, seeing how different crowds (er, scant gatherings might be more truthful) act in different venues. The key is to keep your expectations low. That way, you're almost always gonna be pleasantly surprised by something.
i 've seen great shows at the 400 bar, but it was not because of the bar. 5 bucks for a bottle of bud, come'on. The sneer was free though, and so was being ignored.
Argh, the 400 and the Terminal are both low on my list of good rock and roll dive bars. If there's wood paneling on the walls, you shouldn't pay $17 for a pitcher (Terminal) or $5 for a PBR or Bud or whatever it was (400). The bartenders are nicer at the Terminal, though. At least a shit show at the Terminal is $5, instead of $10.
Last time I went to the 400, they had advertised advanced tickets for $2 less so I popped in the night before. When I asked the door guy for advanced tickets, he said they didn't sell them. When I pointed to the giant fucking poster over his head which said they did, he said he didn't know where they were. After an awkward pause, I asked where I could get them (hey, I had to buy several tickets) and he said I could get them online. The catch? There was a $2 service charge for each ticket. WTF? Also, I hear they can be incredibly snotty with bands trying to catch a break, which is wholly unnecessary.
First Ave's staff is incredible, the Turf is great, and Triple Rock tends to have awesome drink specials that offset the slightly higher door prices.
All that being said, I saw Man or Astroman at the 400, and when some smug, drunk blonde chick climbed onstage, they pelted her with Twinkies. That was worth the price of admission.
Re: white belts... Grant Johnson used to wear white belts exclusively, for a very long time in the early to mid-90s. (He still might, for all I know.) It was kind of his trademark. I remember seeing some unknown touring band opening for someone in the Entry, and one of their band members had the same short blond hair and white belt look. It was funny because a lot of people commented on it. "There's only room for one white belt in this town", that kind of thing. Times change, apparently. And while Grant (being a man-about-town in multiple bands) may have worn his white belt with irony like all the hipsters after him, he'e definitely not the preening fashion victim sort like the hipsters so frequently derided on MNSpeak.
Ha. "Hipster." As if such a thing even existed anymore. I love it.
everyone hates the 400 and the sullivans. wasn't that established on this board like a year ago?
luckily for all you p*ssies, there are 350 other bars in the twin cities you can go to.
the 400 charges what it can get away with, and treats you in the way they can get away with, because they book(and apparently actually pay) the bands you want to see.
why don't you blame the bands that elect to play there? those ahole musicians who actually want to make some cash. screw them!
there are plenty of unused stages in town. your heros must play there for a reason
I guess I'm more utilitarian in my approach to music shows. Friendly bartenders? The last thing I want when I'm at a show (especially a crowded one) is to engage in idle chitchat with the bartender. I want them to pour me my drink ASAP so I can get back to the show. Bob was awesome at this. I did chat with him a bit after a show with maybe 15 people in the audience, and he seemed like a nice enough guy then.
Same goes with the audience. Want a catch-up session with your friends with some background music? Stay at home and put a CD in, or go to a bar with a juke. The Turf Club seems to be the worst for this. The last time I was there it was a crowded show and there were also a bunch of people taking up extra space up front with their laptops so they could blog live from the show (or surf the net, I guess). Get over yourselves.
I don't drink swill, and the prices of the beers I do drink seemed to be fairly in-line with other venues. Prior to the smoking ban, most places wouldn't let you skip out of an early set and come back in later, because they make their money on drinks. Now I see you can get your hand stamped and come back in. Then again, I'm not a smoker and I haven't tried this at the 400 Bar.
The thing that drove me nuts about the 400 Bar was the shower curtain in lieu of a stall door in the women's restroom for like 2 years. But that's fixed now.
Oh, and the other thing that drives me nuts is that they give Matt Jennings a lot of opening gigs. I don't think he's talented, and after his set is done, he ignores the later bands and is a chatty Cathy.
I've seen about a dozen shows at the 400, but the one that always stands out for me was being shown the door because I was talking too loud at the bar. First of all, it's a bar not the Orchestra. Second, I wasn't shouting across the room-I was talking to my buddies next to me. And third, Dan Bern who was playing that night stopped his show to answer his cell phone. I guess that's what I get for going to a Dan Bern show, though.
The 400's problem is its sound. There are horrendous dead spots in the room where vocals are nonexistant, the bar chatter seems amplified killing quieter acts, and the posts chop out the high end if you are in the back. The Sullivan's could spend a few dollars making it better, of course, but why would they? They hate me and you too.
I'll be back for certain shows, and I will search out the few sweet spots. . . . But I wish the 400 would go the way of the Quest and all the good shows they get now would move down the road to the Triple Rock--which has great sound and good beer.
I'm quite sure I'm already on record 'round these parts expressing my disdain for the goddamned 400 Bar. But that doesn't mean I won't chime in with my goddamned 2 cents anyway.
I hate the goddamned 400 Bar. I've seen a bunch of really good bands there (in my world that's The Decemberists, Apples in Stereo, Violet, Brendan Benson, Paul K, um, there's more...) but I found that even if I miss really good bands that are playing there (most recently, Pernice Brothers), I'm a happier person if I just don't go.
I decided a couple years ago that I don't care who's playing; I will not give that place any more of my money. It just encourages them to continue to be a**holes.
I'm far too old to wear a white belt and I'm probably far too old to even waste my time thinking about it.
So yeah, the sight lines suck, the drinks are microscopic and the employees are/were dicks.
To answer the original question: Yes, I think the 400 does deserve so much collective ire. I'm honestly surprised that anyone wants to defend that hole.
In fairness to the 400 Bar, I was wearing a polo shirt (small p) when I was bounced so I probably got what I deserved. Stupid, stupid.
What shows are you guys going to where talking during the performance is even possible?
I've heard from musicians that play there that they do indeed get paid better, which is great. I'm all for musicians making fair cash when they deserve it.
But after:
-looking for parking for 40 minutes
-walking 6 blocks through the ghetto that is "Little Somalia"
-shelling out a portion of my 401K for admission and a Dixie cup of watery beer
-getting treated by every employee there like I'm an ugly, stupid, idiot asshole rube when I'm a pretty, polite, well-spoken and unpretentious young woman
-suffering through 4 opening acts who sucked their way onto that stage to torture us all with their singer-songwriter masturbation fantasy
-not being able to see even the drummer on a tall riser
-not being able to sit down anywhere for the whole 4 hours because there's like, 4 chairs there total
-wading through 2 inches of toilet back-up in the bathroom that has no hot water
-getting herded out 20 minutes before bar close by rudely shouting fat slobs with pit stains who actually had the gall to TOUCH PEOPLE as they did it
.........after all that I'm not really giving two shits if the 400 set the bands up with Swiss bank accounts and paid them in solid diamond cock rings. I just want to get the fuck outta there and never have to think about coming back, even if there was a triple-bill Hoopsnakes/Menudo/Peter Cetera one-off reunion show there some day. I'd have to pass.
P.S. I hope the building collapses too. DURING the triple bill reunion show I just mentioned. Please God. For my birthday.
The 400 is not a dive bar.
Bx, will you marry me?
Huh. I love the 400 Bar and the Sullivans.
- There is rather ample parking in the ramp across Cedar, and if you stay late enough (late enough being the encore, or *gasp* bar close), there's no attendant and the gate arms go up, so the parking is FREE.
- There is no better place to see a loud rock-and-roll band in town because that place has the absolute loudest PA system in town.
- They cater very well to local bands, like my friend DJ's band, Hojas Rojas. They were offered a gig and ended up playing there every Wednesday through the month of December.
- The bartenders can be a little gruff, but they do have to put up with a lot of assholes. Working just a few doors down from one of the nastiest bars in town might toughen you up a bit, especially if you don't have the luxury of an army of gratuitously-tattooed bouncers standing outside, arbitrarily refusing entry to people, like at the Triple Rock (a bar which I love, don't get me wrong, but I'm just saying the riff-raff that flows into the 400 never has a chance to get in the Triple Rock's door).
- Harp on tap.
i've seen a crapload of amazing shows at the 400 but still am bummed when a cool act like joanna newsome is booked there since i know it will probably sell out and i will have to fight with folks to get anywhere near the stage to see and i'm like 6'
but i do have to tell my fav. 400 bar show story. i saw barbara manning there with about 10 other people. but we all danced our fuckin' asses off and it was an amazing show. barbara manning was so jazzed that we danced with such a small crowd that she came down afterwards and gave us all hugs. it was great.
Also, the 400 is cleaner and better-smelling than the majority of the rock clubs I've been to in Chicago, Seattle, or San Francisco. I think we're a little spoiled here in that department.
And I'll echo Elizabeth's comment: "The layout of the 400 Bar keeps the talkers by the bar and away from the audience that goes to music shows to listen to music." Very true!
Oh my God, Somalis!
Random reasons I will always love the 400 Bar:
the West Bank
the Sullivans
I met Toasty there
Finding out Bob the bartender was a nice mountain biker and a dad
Tim
sexiest lighting in town
the layout
beer tastes better there
the sound (bring your own earplugs)
that Elliot Smith show in '99 or so
Neutral Milk Hotel
Brian Jonestown Massacre
talking to Joe Strummer in the basement after Lifter Puller
flirting with Meg White
closing time
I had no idea Bx was a pretty, polite, well-spoken and unpretentious young woman. I'm shocked. And a little giddy.
I'll second (third? fourth?) the complaints about the drink prices, rude bartenders, nasty bathrooms, and being herded out almost immediately after the last note, but also the praise for the layout and sound. Though I've not done it, it seems intuitive to do some early drinking within walking distance (Red Sea, Palmer's, even 7 Corners) before the show.
Never had a problem with the view, unless I got stuck down in the bar area during a crowded show.
Duderino, I was at that Whiskeytown show at the Entry, as well. Thought Ryan Adams was going to punch somebody. (Saw them at the 400, as well, but other than my friend blowing soap bubbles to try to piss Adams off, not as memorable as the Entry show.)
saw ryan adams at first ave. complete fucking douche. turned a 2 hour set into 4 hours cuz he kept bitching about his stupid hand between every song. i finally had enough and left early. he sounded good, though. dammit.
i hate surly bartenders. that's such a played out schtick (sp?). we don't need to be best friends, but christ, don't act like your better than me cuz you're on that side of the bar. retarded.
don't be a dirty old man, maz. you're a disgusting enough human being as it is.
and bx, that was all pretty entertaining except for the 'little somalia' part. Please, it's the crack stacks. Let's be sensitive here.
I was watching the last band of the night. They were playing to a nearly empty bar (they were a last minute booking to fill a cancellation). It was a really nasty cold January night and about half way through the band's set the staff flings opens all the doors so those of us who were there were blasted with cold air. They then began sweeping and putting the chairs up while they gave us looks that said, "Are you ready to get out of here yet?" We had paid a cover charge and we had purchased drinks. I don't think it was too much to ask that we get to enjoy the music and finish our beverages during regular business hours.
I'm always a bit saddened when a band I really want to see plays at the 400 bar since I hate that place so much. But that Barbara Manning show in 2001 (?) was really awesome.
One night I was there at a sparsely attended show. I had already ordered three beers and tipped the standard buck a bottle. Decided I didn't need anymore alcohol and tried to order a root beer. The bartender snarled at me, "We don't have any! Go back to the Foxfire, kid!" and just turned around and walked away (and no one else was at the bar at that time, and I had a root beer there the week before).
Why are we excusing the bartenders for being a-holes because they have to deal with A-holes everyday. So do all the other bartenders at the 3Rock, Turf, Hex, or any other bar you can name! Those people still manage to be cool to their customers (for the most part), so why can't the 400 bartenders at least give it a shot.
By the way, I'm not looking for idle chit-chat with the bartender, I'm just looking for some common courtesy. What a concept.
That's hilarious about Ryan Adams.
Why are we excusing the bartenders for being a-holes because they have to deal with A-holes everyday. So do all the other bartenders at the 3Rock, Turf, Hex, or any other bar you can name! Those people still manage to be cool to their customers (for the most part), so why can't the 400 bartenders at least give it a shot.
By the way, I'm not looking for idle chit-chat with the bartender, I'm just looking for some common courtesy. What a concept.
That's hilarious about Ryan Adams.
Oops, sorry for the double-post.
What's shitty about the $400 Bar isn't the bartenders. Bartenders are understandably cranky. The problem at the 400 is the mean, elitist attitude of the Sullivans, Bill particularly.
What they do is, they're nice to bigshots (critics, popular bands, etc.) and extremely mean to people who they don't consider to be "important."
I'd rather someone was an asshole to everybody rather than pick favorites like that.
Because they're nice to the bigshots, some people think they're nice people. But if you're one of the unfortunate, say, musicians who've been treated like dirt by the Sullivans, stiffed on the pay, made to feel like less than a human being, etc. - well, that tends to give you a different perspective.
So congratulations to all of you who think Bill Sullivan is a great guy - some of us have reason to think otherwise.
Karma's a bitch - treat people like crap and it comes around and bites you in the ass. Funny, I don't see any 80+ responses to posts on how bad the Turf or Lee's or other bars are - maybe because the people who own and run those places are nice to everyone, not just their "cool friends."
Word.
Word to your grandmother, loser.
I liked Bob the bartender--he lived across the alley from me--but I can see how he came off like a prick. But he hasn't been there for two or three years. And how can anybody think Jim Weber's an asshole? You guys must be anti-semitic. And the pillars and the sightlines are kind of a pain in the ass, but most packed small clubs suck if you're a whiny 5'1" hipster chick. Give me a surly bartender over a whiny "the world isn't fair!" hipster chick any day. Stay at the Turf. I'm sure the sightlines are great for those Superhopper shows.
Ooooooooooohhh!
Tough talk, Duderino!
It's not meant as tough talk, maybe you've never heard the expression before. I meant that I agreed with you wholeheartedly, sorry my slang didn't connect.
What the hell's wrong with Superhopper?
(No, I'm not in that band).
that was a cheap shot though - but then again, when you're an "important" person who the Sullivans are nice too, you'll defend them to your dying day - never mind the poor souls who get treated like shit by them
Reminds me of playground bullies - some kids wouldn't mind that the bullies picked on weaker (or disabled) kids, saying "well, they're nice to ME!"
Nobody said you 400 Bar lovers had to hate the place, but step outside yourselves for a minute and try to understand the animosity that the Sullivans have bred in the scene by being such complete assholes to so many musicians in "lesser-known" bands.
Like I said before, there must be something to all this, otherwise the Internets would be full of message boards and angry threads about how bad Mayslack's is, right?
Sorry duderino,
misunderstood ya.
thanks for the support-
Loser
If you don't like their Hostilality don't go. If you don't like the prices bring a flask or smuggle in a can or two. I'm sure the Sullivans have done that back when they were hipsters.
I DON'T go to the 400
haven't for years.
just speaking my peace...
Why are we excusing the bartenders for being a-holes because they have to deal with A-holes everyday. So do all the other bartenders at the 3Rock, Turf, Hex, or any other bar you can name!
Amen. The 400 Bar isn't even open unless there is a show, so those people they have to "deal" with are patrons. Patrons who not only paid admission but are willing to pay for beer and presumably tip the bartenders as well.
I also have chosen not to attend the 400 Bar for the last 8+ years and it has nothing to do with being a "hipster" but everything to do with being treated like crap on a number of occassions.
Wow. The collective ire is a lot stronger than I thought.
At the core, I really do think that the Sullivans are music lovers. They could care less about the bar-going experience. They just want to book good music. If your band is decent, they will give you a gig, unless you're knocking down their door every day and stuffing their mailbox with your bloated, self-important "press kit". If you suck, no matter how good you think you are, they won't. Not to say that crappy bands haven't stunk up the stage, but the 400's batting average is pretty good, I'd say.
I'm not an "important" guy by any stretch, but Tom has always been nice as hell to me. The dude can tell some hilarious stories. He gave my band a lot of opportunities back when we were unkown by everyone but our friends. But I totally get the animosity that some feel; I mentioned it in the orginal post, and in the end, it's an unfortunate reality of being a club owner: you can't, and won't, please everyone. The Sullivans breed more anger than other clubowners because they're so unwavering in their preferences: strongly opinonated, eccentric, stubborn and obstinate in their desire to run the club exactly how they want to. There is no Suggestion Box at the 400. Never will be. This sort of vision makes for a terrible President, but creates a pretty interesting local club that, for better or for worse, stays on the tips of a lot of tongues.
Besides, where else can I run down into the basement to grab a beer, and stumble into Sean "Har-Mar" Tillman ripping down a line of blow? ...oh, right... just about everywhere.
Sorry, it's not the "crack stacks" either, it's the "khat stacks."
And hey, hippies, defending the 400 is like, so 1970. Give it up already. The place sucks donkey kong, plain and simple. Oooo - Harp on tap. Can't get *that* anywhere else in town.
Golly, this is fun.
Other than the fact that a band I'd like to see plays there every so often, they are really not on the tip of my or anyone I know's tongues. It is easy enough to wait until the next time whatever artist comes back around to play at a proper venue.
Whatever, the place is lame and boring and operates in some alternate universe. Pete, I think you're putting far too much credence in the idea that you posited in your first post that the whole town is buzzing about the 400 Bar.
The only time I think of them is when someone brings them up because of a bad experience. Other than that, they're not even on the radar.
That was kind of a cheap shot you took at Har Mar there, Pete.
Also, you say the Sullivans "could care less about the bar-going experience." That's a peculiar attitude for a bar owner to have, wouldn't you say? At some point you'd think their apparent apathy and/or eagerness to alienate customers will come back to bite 'em in the keister.
I've been on a 7+ year boycott myself and judging from this thread so have many others. That can't be good for business.
This sort of vision makes for a terrible President, but creates a pretty interesting local club
I'm not sure the 400's particular vibe of sneering at their customers is really 'vision'.
Besides, where else can I run down into the basement to grab a beer, and stumble into Sean "Har-Mar" Tillman ripping down a line of blow? ...oh, right... just about everywhere.
Well, mostly in LA and maybe new york these days!
outed as a coke head on the inter-web.
that's so 2007.
This whole thread is giving the Sullivans a laugh, a hard-on, and more bad ideas.
They'll stay in business as long as sucker MCs keep trooping through the doors. And in the Twin Cities, there's at least a couple of those turning 21 every minute.
Hakuna Matata, motherfuckers.
"If your band is decent, they will give you a gig, unless you're knocking down their door every day and stuffing their mailbox with your bloated, self-important "press kit". If you suck, no matter how good you think you are, they won't."
Yep, those Sullivans, "fair" as can be. Because they gave YOUR band a gig and were nice to YOU, it's great that you can generalize so freely.
Last time I checked, press kits were important ways of promoting your band - lucky for you, you play for an artist who has a good buzz and thus you've been allowed to bypass some of the grind of getting gigs from assholes like the Sullivans.
But no, in your universe, the Sullivans are great because they were great to you - never mind all your fellow musicians who've been treated like shit by them.
There's a word for people with that kind of "hey, I've got mine, so screw the other guy" attitude, in political terms: Republican.
Keep defending the assholes - the GOP could use more good status quo defenders like yourself.
Bx-- sorry the West Bank isn't Eden Prairie or Edina. That ghetto comment was ignorant.
If you don't like 400, you probably shouldn't be going to shows. What do you expect? Stadium seating? Seltzer water? Spa treatments? It's a rock 'n roll bar not the Ritz.
Sweet, I relish a MnSpeak debate with Cat Power!
"If you don't like 400, you probably shouldn't be going to shows. What do you expect? Stadium seating? Seltzer water? Spa treatments? It's a rock 'n roll bar not the Ritz. "
Chan, I'm guessing you were treated well by the Sullivans. I don't expect any special, luxurious treatment - just to be treated like a human being. I'm glad they've been nice to you - some of us music business lowlies haven't been so lucky.
And that's really my point - if the Sullivans have been nice to you, great, I don't doubt it for a minute because I've seen it up close - we'd be opening for a band they liked and they would pay them well and give them free beer while we were treated like trespassers on their property.
Some people are nice to everybody. Some people are mean to everybody. And some people are nice to important people and mean to people who they consider to be "insignificant." Anyone who ever spent time on a playground as a child (or went to high school) knows this.
All I'm asking for is some understanding that maybe, even though the Sullivans were nice to some of you, they have been downright awful to people who clearly deserved better. No, not just "sucky bands." No, not just spoiled primadonnas. No, with my own eyes, I've seen them be total assholes to talented, nice musicians who they just felt they could shit all over.
Some of you rock stars might even remember what it's like to be treated like shit by mean club owners, before you were all famous and shit.
Chan - sorry you think the West Bank is a real dandy place to park and walk around alone at night these days. That Eden Prairie/Edina comment was ignorant.
If you don't like making good music, you probably shouldn't be recording albums. What do you expect? Not having to suck? The world needing another moody, boring, middlebrow singer/songwriter chick? Bar owners kissing your ass so you'll defend them in a lame online forum? It's a rock n' roll bar, not an opportunity for polishing musical turds.
Somehow I doubt that's really Chan Marshall who posted that.
seriously, anyone want to front me some cash to start the 500 bar?
the fact that so many people hate the 400 makes me like it even more. it's the rockstar of local clubs: pretentious, rude, self-serving, holier-than-thou. it's Axl Rose in brick-and-mortar (and without the stupid braids).
loser, you're gettin' a bit too serious. for one, we've been through (and continue to go through) the grind that every band endures. we started this thing 9 years ago. i've written plenty of terrible press kits, and over time learned (at the cost of plenty of unbooked gigs) how to do them right. we've been treated like shit by plenty of clubowners, and it'll happen again and again. it's the music biz, man! you've got to expect it. it's part of the deal. for some reason, the Sullivans were nice to us a long, long time ago, back before there was buzz of any kind. i never said they were fair: what club owner is? i know they can be dicks, and its a bummer that you and others have had bad experiences with the 400. but good lord man, you're way off when you claim that I have a "screw the other guy" attitude. that would be offensive if it weren't so downright hilarious. i defend one guy i happen to like, and you make it sound like I sit in a bunker with him and strategize the imminent doom of every band the 400 snubs! sorry to disappoint you, but Tom Sullivan ain't the Antichrist, and furthermore, i've always been hugely proud of the fact that the bands and artists in this town are nothing if not rabidly, frighteningly mutually supportive, cooperative and just plain filled with nice people. who cares if the 400 disses you? there are lots of venues in this town that lack all the horrific problems that you and others claim the 400 has in spades. why oh why, with all the kvetching, would you want to play a show there anyway?
finally, your characterization of me as a GOP "status quo defender" in a post about the merits of a local rock club? that made me smile... god, i love the internet. such a wonderfully anonymous ether for dorks to sling ridiculously free-associative, unintentionally funny garbage at other dorks. like me.
ok... rant is now over. loser, what band are you in? send me to your Myspace or whatever. maybe we can do a show sometime. (honestly, no sarcasm here!)
Pete-
"mutually supportive" would involve being a little more compassionate to those who aren't as lucky as you and showing some solidarity with those fellow musicians, rather than having an attitude like yours.
Thanks for the lecture on the ups and downs of the music biz - I've seen more of them than you, punk.
I'm choosing to remain anonymous here, but I'll be cryptic and say that we probably know each other. I might even be "sort of" well-known in town myself. Maybe I went a bit overboard with the GOP stuff, but your attitude just completely sticks in my craw. Jesus, man, you're playing with an artist that has a good buzz (and whose music I really like), but you ain't playing Carnegie Hall. Watch your big head - it's growing pretty fast, and that bubble can sure be painful if and when it bursts.
I don't want to play the 400. I didn't even want to talk about it, but I believe you started this thread and now you're finding out the full extent of the poison that the Sullivans have injected in the music scene.
Can't stand the heat? Don't start the MNSpeak thread (or so the saying goes, sort of).
I never said anybody was the Antichrist (well, nobody in the MN music scene). I just said the Sullivans' attitude and behavior towards certain people in this town - people who clearly don't deserve to be treated poorly - really sucks. I'm glad you think that's cool.
You seem to have an interesting attitude, revealed all too clearly with this line:
"The rockstar of local clubs: pretentious, rude, self-serving, holier-than-thou."
Is that what you aspire to be? An asshole rock star? Rock stars can be assholes, sure, but they don't have to be. I'm pretty sure there are quite a few who don't behave as cruelly to "less-important people" as the Sullivans have. In fact, I can't think of any local rock stars, even the ones who are friends with the Sullivans, who behave that way. It's ironic that some of the nicest people in the scene are pretty big names - and they probably wouldn't defend the Sullivans as vehemently as you do, because they're probably aware of the dark side of Bill & Co.
The sad part of all this acrimony is that I like your band and probably even like you. But you opened a can of worms with this thread, and your breezy attitude toward the 400 just doesn't square with some of the painful memories many of us have about the place in the last 10 years.
If I've gone overboard, I'm sorry, but the truth is, you kind of rubbed salt in an old wound for a lot of local musicians, and thus, the painful screaming.
do I detect the beginnings of a battle of the bands? or maybe a sweet thrash-off?
I'll even settle for a drunken knife fight in an alley, so long as we can spectate.
I think Total F***ng Blood could take anyone on in a Battle of the Bands. With a name like that, how can you lose?
One more thing, Pete...maybe instead of defending the Sullivans to all your fellow local musicians, you could - just once in a while (since you're so buddy-buddy with the Sullivans) - try to bring up (with the Sullivans) the subject of why so many local musicians bear such a grudge against the place.
Good luck with that! You thought we were harsh HERE???
One final note - a while back, Bill Sullivan was quoted in the City Pages as saying that bands that haven't made it after a number of years in the business should just "give up".....so, on that glorious day when the 400 Bar goes out of business (someday, maybe soon), I will ceremoniously dance on their grave (Soul Asylum "Grave Dancers' Union" pun definitely intended), after seeing the Sullivans "give up" after "not making it."
HA!
And I will never give up, so FUCK YOU BILL SULLIVAN!
Chan - sorry you think the West Bank is a real dandy place to park and walk around alone at night these days.
I don't have statistics, just a feeling, but I say this as someone who had his face punched by a stranger on the West Bank many years ago: I would bet good money that "the ghetto that is 'Little Somalia'" is safer than the "ghetto" it was before Africans started taking over the neighborhood. It feels safer, anyway.
Is this thread sponsored by Kleenex Tissue or The Wine Store?
Mr. or Ms. Anonymous Loser, it is now obvious that I am unaware of the extent of the Sullivans' offenses to you and others. Murder? Arson? Kidnapping? Cuckoldry?
I think you've most definitely gone overboard, and I'm glad you acknowledge it. You've turned a silly free-for-all about a local club into a scary, hate-filled Unabomber-like diatribe, and it's sad. You say you didn't want to talk about it. So stop. I don't even know you, how can I personally be rubbing salt into these "deep wounds" of yours? It's like TV: if you don't like what's on, just change the channel. And the name calling, man, I mean come on. Really? Is this what MNSpeak is usually like? I'm rather new here, so please, educate me if my expectations were out of whack.
It's astounding to me that you're calling my character, and my band's character, into question in the context of this ultimately pointless, but fun, discussion. We don't have any illusions: we're lucky to pull in a dozen people when we play out of town. We're just having a good time playing music, and couldn't be more appreciative that we get the chance to do so. Where do you get the impression that I think I'm playing Carnegie Hall? Maybe there is something to remaining anonymous on the web... sheesh!
I call for a truce. This is really dumb. Let's make up over a plastic-cupped beer at the 400. I'll buy!
Sounds like somebody's just cryin' cos the Sullivans don't like their band. Can we hear from some ACTUAL local musicians who've been snubbed by and now hate 400?
I've heard lots of bad things about the way some bands have been treated there, and I concur with the overpriced beer and bounced loudness of the joint.
That said, I've sure seen some of my fave all-time shows there.
Scholtes mentioned Neutral Milk Hotel - yeah!
Every Beulah show.
GBV.
Soundtrack of Our Lives.
Broadcast.
Too many to mention.
I also have fond memories of the old narrow 400, where I first saw Pleasure (aka Semisonic), Walt Mink, and a Beatles cover night that saw Willie Wisely get his butt kicked by Rich Mattson and the Glenrustles playing that old crappy piano.
I don't know. I've had a couple pretty tasty sets from Minnesota legends Spider John Koerner and Tony Glover in the past month (every Thursday, 8-9). $5 cover. Sierra Nevada in a glass pint. Smiling gal at the door. Fuck you "scenesters" or "hipsters" or whatever you think you are. Give the 400 back to the hippies if you don't like it!
"I don't know. I've had a couple pretty tasty sets from Minnesota legends Spider John Koerner and Tony Glover in the past month"
- - -
Seriously? They're still around? I used to go see them way back when I was in . . . well, way back. Back in the days before ear hair, is all I'll say.
Guess I'm going to the 400.
.
As a musician, I noticed a few things while playing the 400 Bar:
1. It *is* a real shithole. The bathrooms smelled worse than any I've been in. Dirty and dim everywhere.
2. Despite all complaints about sightlines, it's a great little venue. Someone else mentioned that it makes a difference that people actually have to sit in the stage area, making it more likely that there aren't a lot of loud, chattering girls in the front row of your show. Total agreement.
3. Unlike most bars, with their small platform in an unusable corner, 400 Bar has a real stage. The sound guy sucked that night, but otherwise it was a nice show.
4. Yeah, the bartenders are kinda dicks. This is never good, and its a shame that no one in the business has done anything about it. Has anyone here made an official complaint?
i do have an awesome memory of Elliot Smith's first show there, he played solo. there were only about 20 people there and we were all sitting on the floor looking at our shoes and listening. he barely said anything and it was so quiet in there it was beautiful..
I went there a few years ago to see my kid play. I thought everyone was real nice. A very friendly girl even went out of her way to find me a seat and I don't even know if she was employed by the bar. Maybe they're just nice to oldsters.
Pete Scholtes is sad because HarMar wouldn't cut him a line and because he didn't realize Meg White has rotted green teeth until after they sucked face. BTW, the 400 Bar is a SHIT HOLE.
Hey, grote, why don't you just STFU?
Just by entering a battle of the bands, you already lost
why don't you put this post out of it's misery....
I think if you're gonna see a show in a bar you have to expect people talking over the show and, in general, other things going on. I remember seeing Haley Bonar last spring at the Cedar (a couple of doors down from the 400) and she was awestruck at how quiet everyone was. She said she was so use to playing in bars and having people ignore her this was strange to her. She soon got use to it and loved the interaction.
As for the 400, it pisses people off but I still keep finding myself going back. Good sound and that's most important. A friend recently played there and commented on how well they got paid compared to a couple of other places they played.
The last time i played a show there, the sound guy was sleeping. Enough said.
'nough said about your act!?
a lot of venom from 1) people that haven't been in the 400 for 6+ years 2) people from bands that never could draw anyone and never will 3) people just plain ignorant about how to run a business and how to make for successful shows where a band can make money
the beer at the 400 ranges from $3-$5...since when is this expensive? the rail is $4 and is, perhaps, the best rail in town, with Bacardi, Dewar's, Windsor, Beefeater, and Schmirnoff. Enough said.
the bartenders have always been fine. i just want them to get me a drink, which they do as quickly as they can. if you think they're rude, you've likely never been to rock clubs in any major city in the country outside of the twin cities, so fuck off.
the bands that bitch about being treated well... they are the same bands that will play all over town a dozen times a month, or play for free, or both. do you think that they can then get a full room at the 400 bar? no. the bands that bitch about their experiences at the 400 likely had no one show up, wanted free drinks, and expected the bar to bring people in to the show. the BAND has to bring people. the 400 doesn't have walk-up traffic. the bar has to pay a sound guy, a door person, and bartenders, plus all the normal overhead of utilities, booze, etc. the bands that bitch are expecting to get paid when they bring 20 people????!!! idiots. plus they want free booze, and want 30 people on the guest list. how is a venue supposed to make $$ keep playing the hexagon, the terminal, and countless other crap-sounding rooms in town...play them ad infinitum, and pretend you are rock stars. bands that work with the 400 to build something are the ones trying to actually make a go of it and become more than just another band that wil never make it outside of the Cities.
the bands bitching have no idea how the business works, and they'll never be anything more than some dumb-ass band that their 5 friends, their girlfriends, and their parents want to listen to.
Wow, "realism." Project much? You don't even know the people posting here, how could you pretend that our complaints aren't valid? If you "know how the business works" so well, why aren't you rocking sold-out stadia instead of shilling for a shitty bar? You can pretend all you want, but no one who's played the 400 Bar is going to pretend that they're some sort of special place. They have a dedicated stage, and they're practically on the University campus. If it weren't for those two factors (neither of which have anything to do with the current ownership or management), that place would be a surface parking lot like the rest of the block.
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