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EBT, Huge Families and Junk Food
I was at Cub on lake the other day, and at checkout, I noticed a Somali family buying several hundred dollars worth of junk food using EBT. One line over was a another morbidly obese white family buying the same type of crap, only worse. No produce, or even meat was in the cart. Instead, TGI Fridays snack food, frozen pizzas, chips, and candy were mounded high. They also used EBT. My question is, should there be limits on the types of food taxpayer money covers? Should we really be responsible for their food budget, as well as their hospital bills? I'm all about helping people, but this is the sort of reasoning I use to not give money to alcoholic bums. I don't want to pay for someone to harm themselves even more.
142 Reader Comments
Right on! Of course, we have to make sure this applies to students and their financial aid money and government employees with their pay checks. Oh, and any farmer who gets help from the government should be able to turn their foods into junk food either, right?
Let's do it.
Uhh, make that shouldn't be able to make their food into junk foods, not should.
why shouldn't these people be able to die of diabetes like the rest of us?
Mind your own business, marshaeq.
Funny, one of my friends got the stinkeye for buying organic produce with her EBT card. Everyone's a critic, I guess.
And why does the race of the fatty matter?
I'm all for educating everyone, even non-EBT families, about the benefits of healthy eating.
But wealthy and middle class people have the luxury of buying expensive produce, fresh meat and fruit. It's not like an EBT card on the 1st and 15th is the same as having several hundred dollars in cash every month to spend on food. They also have the luxury of not working more than one job and having time to cook healthy meals.
More and more, obesity is a sign of poverty. Not because people are misspending their money, but because in fact they are managing the meager allowance they get from min. wage jobs and crappy gov. checks in the best way they can (by stretching a dollar on junk food instead of spending it on pricey good stuff).
That said, there are wars, a military industrial complex and corporate bailouts all being funded on the taxpayer dollar. These are a lot more expensive and better things to complain about than some poor fat dude nabbing some Doritos at Cub.
I thought that there were already rules in place about the use of foodstamps and WIC for certain types of foods and not others.
Are you sure they didn't pay with the EBT card for some stuff and then use cash for other things which didn't qualify? Because I see that a lot at the grocery store myself...
More and more, obesity is a sign of poverty.
For real.
I know when I take my clients shopping they need to take into consideration their tiny dorm size refrigerators when deciding what to buy for the next couple weeks.
As much as I nag them I realize that paying $5.00 for a pound or 2 of grapes is not high on their list of priorities.
But wealthy and middle class people have the luxury of buying expensive produce, fresh meat and fruit. It's not like an EBT card on the 1st and 15th is the same as having several hundred dollars in cash every month to spend on food. They also have the luxury of not working more than one job and having time to cook healthy meals.
Actually, a healthy diet is cheaper than an unhealthy one. Water is cheaper than soda. Fresh fruits and vegetables are cheaper than processed foods. Rice is cheaper than bread. Pasta with olive oil is cheaper than most fast food dishes. And there are tv dinners that sell for two dollars a pop that are better for you than a burger at burger king.
Presuming you have access to a grocery store (and, poor as I have been, I have never been more than a bus ride from one), the food is available. Preparation time for a bowl of soup is no longer than for unhealthy food. Preparation time for fruit is nil. Speaking as a person who has been poor, and who doesn't have the patience to make a meal that takes longer than 15 minutes, I think I can fairly say that the problem with the poor is not a lack of access to good food or the time to make it. It's a social issue, not one of poverty. And it is one that very badly needs to be addressed, or else the poor are consigned to a future of diabetes, heart disease, stroke, and vastly shortened life spans.
But you can't force a diet on someone, and eating habits, especially habits developed over a lifetime, are hard to change. Better we spend money on education and create real incentives for buying good food than we waste our time trying to bully people. Trust me, if they want bad food, they'll get it.
WIC is only good for certain types of food. EBT is more open.
At the Mpls farmers' market, some vendors take some form of assistance payments. That's a good program, at least for 3 months out of the year.
My family was food stamp poor back in the day, and we ate mac 'n cheese and other processed crap. As our economic situation improved, so did the food.
Also, I have seen plenty of fat people in higher economic classes. The American diet, as a whole, is abominable. And I am speaking as someone who could stand to lose a few dozen pounds.
Everyone has access to good food and the ability to exercise, Matt.
My brother and his family are on WIC in Wisconsin. The benefit is provided to the mother and children in the form of checks that allow the purchase of certain items including milk, formula, eggs, peanut butter, dried beans, and other relatively healthy things.
They are regularly verbally harassed by other shoppers when they make their purchases. One time my sis-in-law was alone with the three kids while shopping and the people in line behind her had the nerve to criticize her purchase of chicken (not a WIC item) because, they said, she shouldn't be allowed to buy something so costly when she was taking government money for her other purchases. I wonder what they would have had her buy instead?
Of course there are fat people in all socio-economic levels. However, according to Greg Critser's FATLAND (which I just finished yesterday,)
"...as the studies trickled in, and as various interest groups parsed their meaning, one fact stuck out above all others, at least to those who were on the front lines of studying and treating the phenomenon: In late-twentieth-century America, it was the poor, the underserved, and the underrepresented who were most at risk for excess fat."
Actually, a healthy diet is cheaper than an unhealthy one.
I bet you I can feed a family of five with a $10 bill on processed junk. It's impossible to do that and feed them fruits, vegetables and fresh meat.
But it IS possible when you incorporate rice, beans, and bread products made from scratch.
But anyway, that's really beside the point.
" bet you I can feed a family of five with a $10 bill on processed junk. It's impossible to do that and feed them fruits, vegetables and fresh meat."
- - -
Yeah. You can do that once. One meal.
But if you buy basic veggies, basic breads, cheap cuts of meat and bird, rice and beans, and the like, you can stretch that $10 over quite a few meals.
One thing that stops The Poor from doing this, though, is that they usually lack the very basic essential ingredients in their kitchens. If you're living in a "oh, good, I have $10, I can buy food" mode, you're not likely going to have the bag of flour, or sugar, or corn starch, or cooking oil, or baking soda, or dish soap, or broth, or spices, or . . . all those little things that allow us to make a meal out of basic ingredients, that most people have and take for granted.
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Don't even try it, man. Receipients and their defenders saiy this money is theirs and they can do with it as they please. Don't even waste your time trying to say otherwise. Pick another fight.
why shouldn't these people be able to die of diabetes like the rest of us?
»» Submitted by sayin' at 10:36 PM on February 12
And why does the race of the fatty matter?
»» Submitted by yepnope at 10:51 PM on February 12
One time my sis-in-law was alone with the three kids while shopping and the people in line behind her had the nerve to criticize her purchase of chicken (not a WIC item) because, they said, she shouldn't be allowed to buy something so costly when she was taking government money for her other purchases. I wonder what they would have had her buy instead?
»» Submitted by Question at 11:21 PM on February 12
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Max, I think you hit it on the head in the Macalester post:
You don't have to be from the south to be grotesquely insensitive.
»» Submitted by »»» msparber at 10:48 PM on February 11
I've used an EBT card (I was in AmeriCorps) at Seward Co-op a few times and no one in line or at the register seemed fazed at all if they even noticed.
My mother was on WIC for each of her three children and while the program for purchases is very limiting, it's still great to force particular items on parents that are new or not-so-great parents. Then whatever other income they have can supplement those purchases.
My initial reaction is: sure, why not require specific purchases using EBT foodstamps, but I'd have to think that over more. I'm sure there are ways for capitalists to exploit that and I'd want to figure out how they would first, since the poor are already their lifeblood, no matter how much they complain about paying for their food ;)
I'm with the Rat on this one. No one ever died of secondhand junk food.
I also agree with other commenters that it is a lot harder for someone on a very limited food budget to eat healthy. I've been there. While I never took food stamps, I was certainly poor enough to qualify for them.
Yes, I know obesity is a big health problem, and I too am shocked at what is in some people's shopping carts. But I don't think additional restrictions on foodstamps is the answer.
The tendency for New Americans to embrace bad eating habits is well documented. I remember hearing one nutritionist explain that how Americanized versions of "Mexican food," which included a lot of cooking with lard became so commonplace that even many people living in Mexico began to adopt it. She traced many of the dishes back to their roots and found them much healthier than the versions many of us eat today.
In fact, if we are not looking at improving eating habits across ALL economic, cultural and racial groups, we are focusing on the wrong things.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
In fact, if we are not looking at improving eating habits across ALL economic, cultural and racial groups, we are focusing on the wrong things.
I would disagree. Buy and eat whatever you want, for godsake we don't need the government telling us what we can and can't eat. Leave us a little personal freedom if you would please.
Unless you pay for groceries with taxpayer-subsidized money. Then we have every right to tell you what you can and can't buy. If you don't like it, don't take the help. WE aren't asking YOU to take the money.
She traced many of the dishes back to their roots and found them much healthier than the versions many of us eat today
Full disclosure: I was eating a microwave burrito for breakfast as I wrote this. Pot, meet kettle!
I guess the other item that needs to be considered is the definition of junk food. Potato Chips are junk food, but what if they are to be used on top of an otherwise healthy hot dish? Candy bars are junk food, but what about granola bars with chocolate chips? Is popcorn junk food or a high fiber, low cal, low fat snack? Fruit juice isn't that healthy for you if you drink more than a small amount in a day.
Oh, and so the poor family who allows there kids one bag of chips, or cookies, or can of soda a week for doing well in school shouldn't be allowed to do that either? What if someone was asked to bring chips and salsa to a work function? Should they have to inform thier co workers that they can't because they are on foodstamps?
Then there are the homeless. Where exactly would they be cooking their rice and beans? Where should they store their parishables?
Not everyone buys all junk food only. Why should we punish everyone for the problems of a few instead of looking for solutions (like education) for the few?
Kevin, when the government provides your healthcare, you will be told what you can and cannot eat because your unhealthy eating habits will be costing all of us. Just like you will be banned from tobacco and alcohol use when the government provides you with your health care ... it's for the good of the collective.
Why stop there, Kevin? You drove to work today on a road subsidized by MY tax dollars. Stand by while WE instruct YOU which vehicles are on state-approved list.
PS: You get a Prius. Hot pink, with a Hilary for President bumper sticker.
I sometimes wonder if most of us have a very skewed vision of what is actually healthy.
Pasta with Olive Oil - Terrible for you. Empty Calories with little to no nutritional value.
Fruit Juice - Most is highly processed with a single serving having as many calories as a regular soda and just as few nutrients.
Fresh Beans - If these are not cooked within about 48 hours of picking there is little to no nutrition left in them.
Meat - how many antibiotics and crazy things have been injected into these animals.
I sort of gave up on tracking how good things are for me and decided it was better to just track the over all calories I ate every day with little respect to where those calories come from be it fat or protein. It seems to be working. Now if I can just cut out those 1000 calories of alcohol each day!
What if the users of EBT were only allowed to buy certain items in the stores; along the lines of limitations of items covered under the WIC program. Someone spent the time to say what is and isn't allowable under that program and tag the items in stores; why not the same for EBT?
If you are using government funds to aid in your survival, there should be rules.
You know, I hate to say it, but as much as I'd love socialized health care, mazasapa's concern with it is one that I've had.
One thing that stops The Poor from doing this, though, is that they usually lack the very basic essential ingredients in their kitchens.
Ain't that the truth. My roommates and I had this same problem when we moved into a house for the first time, and weren't living in dorms or at home. You never want ot cook anything because you look at a recipe, and you don't just need one ingredient, you need ALL of them. Next thing you know you've spent $50 and two hours and are wondering why you didn't just go out. But I guess as you simply go out and buy what you need more and more, you build up those basic things and it gets better.
what are you marshaeq, the food police?
why don't you mind your own business? I'm with The Rat, renrhino and others on this one.
or better yet, why not volunteer at a rec center in a poor neighborhood and teach the kids about healthy eating? I used to do that through community ed programs. it was pretty fun. I also helped set up an after-school snack program through Second Harvest, so the kids could have juice, fruit and healthier snacks.
you can carp and make class assumptions or you can get off your fanny and do something.
now, me, I'd prefer you go to the Wedge and taunt the clerks about repetitive stress disorder. . .
The truth of the matter is, ingredients that are nutritious cost more than ones that are not, and most americans are not willing to pay the higher cost for processed food products that are healthier. Some companies (wink wink) are trying to just force it on consumers anyway out of a sense of social responsibility (and for the good PR), but only so much can be done when you're still beholden to stockholders and wall street.
I love that some of the same people that are always complaining about the 'nanny state' are completely ok with telling poor people how to eat because "they're spending my tax dollars!!!1111"
Yes, if they're poor they must be second-class citizens who have less rights to choose how they live than you, Misters I'm so successful.
Oh, and the costs of providing healthcare to fat people are still absolutely miniscule compared to the costs of waging a pointless indefinite war overseas.
now, me, I'd prefer you go to the Wedge and taunt the clerks about repetitive stress disorder. . .
Heh! They don't seem to have any problem getting RSIs from taking your money, though!
Hey I just read that veggie seeds (for planting, or I suppose sprouting too) are covered under food stamps.
I think that's kinda cool.
I love that some of the same people that are always complaining about the 'nanny state' are completely ok with telling poor people how to eat because "they're spending my tax dollars!!!
You got something there, Wayne. Consider this bill from a few years back.
Seifert is one of the loudest critics of the Freedom To Breathe Act, BTW.
Well, not that I'm necessarily advocating it, but last time I checked, many govt assistance programs had some sort of educational component designed to (theoretically) reduce the need for that assistance and/or improve the lives/health of the recipients.
Not that such stuff works, just saying.
I was on the WIC program and food stamps on and off during the 1980's and used to be infuriorated when I saw people buying Fritos, Twinkies, and candy on food stamps while I was using them on meat, fruits, and vegetables. I would always buy the meat, fruits, vegetables, and Cheerios first with them, and then if there were food stamps left (they were actual stamps) then I would buy non-essentuals (cakes, cookies). On a similar subject--food shelves (which I will occasionally visit) I have found that people basically donate the items they don't want--sometimes it's outdated. A lot of people use the food donation bins at Cub or Rainbow as dumpsters for what they don't want. They don't think that maybe low income people may want to eat healthy or quality food. There were times I visited the food shelf and was only able to use 50% of the food, because it was too spicy or outdated. People who visit food shelves are not looking for gourmet items, only healthy and basic items. When I donate food to a food shelf, I try to donate things I'd like to receive myself--things like chunky soups and packaged dinners that can make a family a healthy meal. Poor people, whether they use food stamps (EBT) or food shelves, have a right to healthy food.
And Maz steps in with an alarmist and completely unjustified position.
Thanks, Maz. Since we also pay for the fire department, it's a wonder that this terrifying nanny state of yours hasn't also declared smoking in houses and fireplaces illegal. It's for the good of the collective!
Oh, wait. Government isn't always the intrusive communist entity your paranoid philosophy seems certain it is.
I love that some of the same people that are always complaining about the 'nanny state' are completely ok with telling poor people how to eat because "they're spending my tax dollars!!!
The nanny state is when the government pokes its head in and tells you how to live your life. Unless I'm missing something, food stamps have to be requested.
Why stop there, Kevin? You drove to work today on a road subsidized by MY tax dollars. Stand by while WE instruct YOU which vehicles are on state-approved list.
PS: You get a Prius. Hot pink, with a Hilary for President bumper sticker.
I rode the bus. Haha. We already do have an approved list of automobiles. I think the term is street-ready, or something like that.
it's a wonder that this terrifying nanny state of yours hasn't also declared smoking in houses and fireplaces illegal. It's for the good of the collective!
Do you honestly think either of those things are out of the question? Burning leaves is illegal in st. paul, and people have proposed making wood-burning fireplaces illegal here (I have one) and declaring smoking illegal in houses is already n place in apartment buildings ... private homes to follow. A person on this board will argue that second-hand smoke around children (your own, mind you) is comparable to child abuse. That's a half-step from banning smoking in your own home. The health and safety nazis need to be taken out back and shot for the good of the collective.
The government declared smoking illegal in apartment buildings or they allowed landlords that ability to do so?
Nice try, maz, but we are wise to your troll-bait on this forum.
it's the american way! something for nothing, junk food, and capitalism. what's not to like? when is this thread going to address "give(ing) money to alcoholic bums"?
The health and safety nazis need to be taken out back and shot for the good of the collective.
I would be all for this, but you also have to let those people dying of smoking related illness die in the street. People are all about personal responsibility until they need the state assistance. Also smokers should not be allowed into health plans with non-smokers. Why should I have to foot the bill for someone else's self destructive behavior?
Also if I smell smoke and it adversely affects me I should be able to sue the smoker for the inconvenience and suffering that has been inflicted on me. I tend to have pretty severe allergies during the spring and fall and the drugs make be sensitive enough where I can smell cigarette smoke on the freeway if someone is smoking in a car ahead of me.
If this society was based on survival of the fittest, most liberals would be gone.
If this society was based on survival of the fittest, most liberals would be gone.
»» Submitted by »»» mazasapa at 10:33 AM on February 13
What does this have to do with the thread?
And its moronic, unsupported, and unverifiable.
Oh you aint seen nothin' buddy. I worked at Cub for a while when I first moved here and if you think TGIF is a bad choice. Well, it gets better.
- I have seen families spending up to $250.00 EBT money on Crab legs, King shrimp and Lobster tails, stuffing them in the trunk and selling them for cash on street sides.
- I have seen families (just about every EBT family does this) - whilest you can't purchase alcohol and tobacco products with the cash portion of your EBT, you can get cash back with $25 limit. They turn around, go to the customers service rep and get a carton of Pall Malls.
- I have seen families who buy a bunch of crap on their EBT and come back the next day - while having "lost the receipt" exchange or return all of their stuff for higher value/rain check/ or cash.
Didn't you mean "survival of the FATTEST?"
And its moronic, unsupported, and unverifiable.
We call that a Mazasapa Hat Trick.
MAZ SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU INSUFFERABLE TROLL!
They turn around, go to the customers service rep and get a carton of Pall Malls.
Yuck. That is a bad choice. The government should put a stop to it I tells ya.
Amazing how Maz questions anything that the government does that might actually be good for people, but loves it when they do things that are bad for people, like bomb them. I guess it's not the nanny state if it's killing strangers, and it's not unfair taxation if it goes to making graves.
He is very clear that his tax money should go only to hurting and never to helping. Nevermind the rest of us who pay taxes. The gubment be stealin' his moneh!
It's called principle...duh, Max.
- I have seen families (just about every EBT family does this) - whilest you can't purchase alcohol and tobacco products with the cash portion of your EBT, you can get cash back with $25 limit. They turn around, go to the customers service rep and get a carton of Pall Malls.
You can't get cash back on EBT Food Stamp benefits. If you gave cash back for the Food Stamp benefits (not the cash ones, also on EBT) you were violating Federal Law.
And, again, antidoctal evidence. How many families did you see come in and buy food to eat? Probably lots of them. Again, a couple people abuse and we should just stop the program. Hey, I put a down payment on a condo with financial aid, we should take that away too.
Nevermind the rest of us who pay taxes
What are the taxes on $18k a year, $200?
"what are you marshaeq, the food police? Why don't you mind your own business?"
- - -
Contrary unsupported assertions and insults aside, I and most other working people see anywhere from a quarter to a third of our paychecks disappearing and the money going into these programs, so I don't think it unfair or unjust or intrusive for those same payors to want to have some input on the efficacy of the uses of that money.
No one is calling an aid recipient a second-class citizen, or less of a person, or unworthy, or . . . whatever. That's simply an attempt to shut down the blasphemous talk, I guess. Point is, though, welfare - meaning, you're in dire need, and I have some money I can spare, and so we decide as a society to share - is basically a gift. You don't get an ownership share in my labor simply because you have the skill and worth and value to manage to be born, and you certainly don't gain an even higher moral stature than the people who are giving up that money for you simply because you can't provide for yourself. The reality is, for whatever reason - some reasons being very understandable and valid and meritorious, others not so much - an aid recipient is someone who, in the systemic exchange and trade of talent and work and skill with others in order to earn one's sustenance, isn't producing a value sufficient to sustain themself.
So, this attitude that the recipients of public largesse have an absolute right not to be bothered by anyone about how they use that largesse is wrong, or at least is not accepted by the majority of our society. Societies that fail to foster a reason for people to work and to perform and to compete eventually die. A society that allows someone to be a net taker, and then grants to that act of taking an equal moral stature simply so we don't hurt the takers' feelings, is also devaluing the worth of the people whose work provides the means for the takers to survive, and works against itself.
(This rant brought to you by John Galt, I guess.)
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Contrary unsupported assertions and insults aside, I and most other working people see anywhere from a quarter to a third of our paychecks disappearing and the money going into these programs, so I don't think it unfair or unjust or intrusive for those same payors to want to have some input on the efficacy of the uses of that money.
You nailed it bob...precisely my feelings on the War...oh, wait, we're talking about social engineering here?
The irony of bobby's conservative argument of course, is that when the collectivists insist on a society that is centered on government distribution of resources, it is THEY who will insist on determining the appropriate use of said resources. That's what a nanny state is after all, control of the people. It'll be the conservatives and libertarians who will be the ones fighting for your liberty, not the collectivists ...YOU MORON WAYNE!!!!!
I and most other working people see anywhere from a quarter to a third of our paychecks disappearing and the money going into these programs,
Does the Military count as one of these programs? I sort of think they take the biggest chunk of your taxes every year. If I was US Today you would see a Pie Chart here!
If maz is going to call us "collectivists," something no one here, to the best of my knowledge actually calls themselves, then we get to call him something in return.
My suggestion: lunaticcranktivist.
God damn it annoys the shit out of me when neoncon tards bitch about how their poor widdle paychewks are being stowen by the big bawd gubbement man to give to poor people who are *so* undeserving because they can't just get a job and quit freeloading! Then they go and defend a war that costs MANY TIMES OVER AS MUCH. If you're so worried about getting 'taxed to death,' why don't you go after the huge expenses like the military-industrial complex or completely mismanaged wars where 8 billion dollars in cash disappears mysteriously and the only answer is 'oops?'
Seriously, whining about welfare and food stamps is like complaining a vending machine stole your dollar when a pickpocket just lifted your entire wallet.
I guess maz doesn't understand the concept of wanting to protect both well being and personal choice. It's got to be one or the other for him.
How's that black&white tv set looking, maz? You should really upgrade, there's a whole new world of colours out there you're missing out on.
Call when you've evolved from your first-ever job, wayne. Then perhaps we can discuss economics in the real world.
Well in the spring of 2009 his black and white TV will no long work without a new digital converter!
Wait is the government trying to control the airwaves?
Someone better let people know that the government has control over portions of our lives!
I find it amusing and highly telling that it would occur to someone to relate the accountable use of welfare benefits to the defense of freedom and liberty.
Just a thought.
Better run down to Best Buy! the government wanted to ban traditional analog tv signals in 1997 until cooler heads prevailed and pushed it to 2009.
Ad hominem.
I find it amusing and highly telling that it would occur to someone to relate the accountable use of welfare benefits to the defense of freedom and liberty.
I was only refuting that 25-33% of your taxes go to Welfare Programs.
Ad hominem.
gasp, I'm young! Please do share your wisdom, o olden one!
sorry, experience doesn't always translate into knowing what the bloody fuck you're talking about, you old coot.
also, let's examine here
point about how war costs more than foodstamps
counterpoint about how I am young and don't understand economics
wait, what? where the fuck did he learn how to argue anyway? the bill o'reilly school of ad hominem attacks and shouting people down?
And we haven't been able to defend liberty for a whole. Our troops are otherwise engaged in a monstrous war of aggression. We don't even have enough troops to protect our shores at the moment, and we're sending our National Guard into endlessly recycle tours of duty.
Don't try to reframe this debate, buddy. Our tax money that is supposed to be used to protect our liberty is being wasted in a ghastly war of attrition.
While, rather.
This nation was born as a result of war. The map of the world is a result of wars. Why you tutu-wearing pacifists don't get that is beyond me. War is a good thing when the result is liberty and the alternative is slavery. But you middleclass white guys wouldn't know anything about that.
Or .. you're a babbling, war-hungry lunatic.
I'm not anti-war. I'm anti this war. And I think they must be fought ethically. You seem to love them all, and any tactics is all right, as long as it wins. That doesn't make you strong, Maz. It makes you a war criminal.
I remember hearing one nutritionist explain that how Americanized versions of "Mexican food," which included a lot of cooking with lard became so commonplace that even many people living in Mexico began to adopt it. She traced many of the dishes back to their roots and found them much healthier than the versions many of us eat today.
I just discovered the glory of the huarachazo so please don't ruin it for me.
Also, you can smoke in apartment buildings. You can in mine, anyway. And my rental company offers a discount for non-smokers.
Er, I should say: That type of thinking doesn't make you strong, Maz. It makes you a war criminal.
I don't mean to suggest Maz actually is a war criminal.
maza: What are the taxes on $18k a year, $200?
maza: Call when you've evolved from your first-ever job, wayne. Then perhaps we can discuss economics in the real world.
Maza, to be consistent with your beloved logical fallacies, we're apparently going to need to see a C.V., income statement, and balance sheet. Would you kindly shut the fuck up until your documents have been submitted to Matt?
Maza, to be consistent with your beloved logical fallacies, we're apparently going to need to see a C.V., income statement, and balance sheet. Would you kindly shut the fuck up until your documents have been submitted to Matt?
I'm actually guessing this is public information already. If Maza has ever taken advantage of being a Minority owned business and actually secured a contract with the state providing some sort of Windows ME training, he would have had to submit all of this data. I don't care enough to do the leg work. Anyone else?
wayne is really on his game today. Good stuff.
I'm more a fan of the carrot rather than the stick. My preference would be to allow folks the freedom to buy whatever they like with their EBT dollars but set up some incentive system such that fruits and veggies are 1/2 off when you buy them with an EBT card.
Actually I'd like to see this sort of carrot be used more generally. Government subsidies for fruits and veggies that lowered their price would encourage everyone to eat healthier. And it's not like the govenment doesn't already spend a gazillion dollars subsidizing other foods.
Another former AmeriCorps EBT user here, and at the time, I used mine about 70/30 at Rainbow and the Wedge. I remember not really understanding the concept of EBT at first, and being sort of surprised that I could A) use it at the co-op, but moreover B) use it without restriction at the grocery store.
I'm a lot less of a small-goverment libertarian since I had occasion to use EBT and more-or-less have my life saved by the MinnesotaCare state insurance program. Now I see my tax bucks as a pretty worthwhile investment (minus the chunk that funds unprompted military escapades, but that's another story).
Anyway, that being said, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to place some guidelines on what can and cannot be purchased with EBT. I always thought it would be good policy for EBT to incentivise or even mandate the purchase of a certain amount of locally-produced foods. State money goes back into the state, instead of to Frito-Lay and Pepsi (same company, maybe?), and I imagine it would push people towards healthy eating habits just by virtue of the choices.
And of course he has. If anybody else does it, they're gaming the system, if he does it, he's sticking it to the Wasichu. Never mind that the actual definition of Wasichu is "greedy man," which means, you know, he's describing himself.
Ad hominem. heh.
I'm a lot less of a small-goverment libertarian since I had occasion to use EBT and more-or-less have my life saved by the MinnesotaCare state insurance program.
Yup. Hypocrites are a dime a dozen. That's why folks like me are in the minority.
Yep. But am I wrong?
I think I've made a pretty good case for your hypocrisy with my ad hominem attacks, so now you're making a case for self-delusion.
I've had one contract with the state, and another with a tribal (government) college. Neither was due to any so-called minority-owned bidness government status. Word of mouth references is how I roll. heh.
Here's a quote from the Thief River Falls Times article on Freedom to Breathe Act will freeze the blood of maz and his pro-smoke buddies:
Efteland said a smoking ban will have a very negative impact on the hospitality industry in the area. He also said that he sells fewer cigarettes inside the bar now, than he did 21 years ago. During that time period, the number of people who smoke in the bar has also decreased.
Fewer cigarettes!!! Less smokers!!! My God, can anyone stop this madness!!!
You still don't get it. I'm not pro-smoking (I don't smoke). I'm not even anti-government. I'm pro-freedom.
I am also for generalized nouns.
I'm pro-freedom
Me too, maz. I just don't believe it is right to wrap the secondhand smoke issue under the blanket of freedom. Our freedoms and rights do need to be protected. We also need justice -- the same rights and protection for all.
We passed the Clean Indoor Air Act of 1975 to protect the health of workers, but we left a lot of good people behind. Now 30 years later, just about everyone agrees that smokefree offices and retail stores are a good idea that works, and doesn't hurt business (many foes warned of disaster in 1975, as they do today) or personal liberties.
Can't we just think of social programs as an insurance policy? We pay (taxes) into it in case we ever need to take advantage of it. It's not so different from a private insurance plan in a lot of ways, except there's no CEO skimming a billion off the top. Just republicans constantly trying to kill it. So ... not so different after all.
The bigotry was better when Rex was here.
Hey, here's some free junk food, courtesy of a family which prefers their junk to come in brand-name packaging.
Bon apetit.
ps, keep eating junk food and paying my salary.
keep eating junk food and paying my salary
That used to cause me a little bit of guilt. Which would be worse since I now work in pharmaceuticals except that I'm far more distanced from the marketing end of things, so it's not so bad.
I and most other working people see anywhere from a quarter to a third of our paychecks disappearing and the money going into these programs, so I don't think it unfair or unjust or intrusive for those same payors to want to have some input on the efficacy of the uses of that money.
Your beef is with the government, not the people making the purchases.
I just don't believe it is right to wrap the secondhand smoke issue under the blanket of freedom.
This doctor talks about the junk science of recent secondhand smoke study
I don't support the war, and I don't think that the EBT programs should be eliminated. Im asking for a bit of regulation. I just don't want to pay for someone to lead an unhealthy lifestyle.
I am not the food police, but I feel like I should have some say if I am helping people get their daily food. Just like I oppose spending my taxes on the war, the same applies here.
Junk food is not really cheap, BTW. It's cheaper than organic\imported food, to be sure, but try filling up your cart with TGI fridays and pizzas, and tell me it's cheap.
I don't want to be villifed for my post here. I'm liberal, and I agree in the necessity of some social programs. I just hate to see them abused. It's not fair to the rest of us.
Not from here, I'm 'off my fanny' more than 50 hours a week, contributing to society and the economy. Save your preaching and condescension, please.
Sometimes I wonder if the people that accept benefits even understand where the money comes from, though.
Thansk for all the comments, and I'm glad I wasn't attacked too badly--I was trying to craft this post to be somewhat sensitive, since I know this is a touchy subject.
Your beef is with the government, not the people making the purchases.
yup.
kc: "Then there are the homeless. Where exactly would they be cooking their rice and beans? Where should they store their parishables?"
Sterno (heck, a lot of them homeless are probably already drinkin' it) for cooking, and they should be sticking to canned food. When I was homeless, I sometimes heated food with tealights, which is even cheaper than sterno, and sometimes I ate my beans or spam cold.
aleshire: "There were times I visited the food shelf and was only able to use 50% of the food, because it was too spicy or outdated."
I think there's hardly any non-perishable foods out there that are "too spicy." I'd better not donate to the foodshelves, since I myself buy outdated (or near-date) food at discount grocers, to make my meager money go further. I guess people relying on foodshelves have a right to better food than I get, since I pay for it myself.
This is basically another grocery store thread! I love grocery store threads!
However, grocery store threads were better when they were about erect nipples.
>>I'm a lot less of a small-goverment libertarian since I had occasion to use >>EBT and more-or-less have my life saved by the MinnesotaCare state >>insurance program.
>Yup. Hypocrites are a dime a dozen. That's why folks like me are in the >minority.
I consider it less of a hypocritical move and more of a flip-flop. Or as it used to be called: learning something.
Folks like you are in the minority because when they needed an apendectomy between jobs, they nobly waived the surgery, out of devotion to John Locke and minimal statism. Then -- in a turn that only Darwin could have predicted -- they died.
What is responsible for brand new immigrants switching from their native healthy diet to American products with zero nutritional value. Is this their version of "adaptation"? Did someone tell them they had to learn all the favorites to pass the citizenship exam? Well, I guess my preference, as a taxpayer, is that people have to pay with their own money for these products just as they do for things like pop and candy. I mean what's the difference between a bag of Doritos and a bag of candy? I thought there must be penalties for grocers misusing food stamps since the cashiers usually give customers a cash total for purchases that are not eligible. Maybe I was wrong all along about that.
Folks like you are in the minority because when they needed an apendectomy between jobs, they nobly waived the surgery, out of devotion to John Locke and minimal statism. Then -- in a turn that only Darwin could have predicted -- they died
with their dignity intact.
Pride is one of the Seven Deadlies, Maz.
You know Ratty, I'm a descendent of those who fought at Little Big Horn. My warrior name (Black Iron) is partially in honor of my ancestor whose warriors were sent to fight there (Red Iron) with Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse.
After the battle, the sioux headed north to escape the coming wrath of the u.s. army. Many sioux people were rounded up and the survivors were brought to an army fort and kept in pens within the compound. They were fed army food and were given army blankets. They soon became warm and comfortable in their new fort surroundings.
Crazy Horse was eventually captured and brought to this fort. When he saw his people wrapped in army blankets and eating army food and seemingly content in their safe surroundings, he cried. He cried not for joy, but in the sad knowledge that his people would never be free again.
What is responsible for brand new immigrants switching from their native healthy diet to American products with zero nutritional value. Is this their version of "adaptation"?
I'm totally guessing here, but I think some of the things in their native countries that are cheap staples are much more expensive here. For Somalis, this means things like goat and fish. Also, I'm sure advertising and new found "wealth" has something to do with it too. Coke is known around the world, but here it is actually affordable (with food stamps.)
I still don't understand how maz's heritage is supposed to justify his being a batshit crazy neocon.
because you're 23 years old.
and in my first job
You can't eat dignity, bro. Principle won't keep you warm in the winter, and allegiance doesn't cover the procedure that keeps your appendix from exploding.
You know what was swell about your pre-Little Big Horn ancestors? They had absolutely no problem relying on the shared resources of their society in times of scarcity. Which is not to say that nobody ever froze or went hungry, but nobody ever froze or went hungry on account of dedication to a dead Scottish economist when there were food and blankets in the teepee right next door.
...but did they eat their neighbors' venison while the neighbors were eating cornmeal mush?
These people were eating better than I do, and I have to pay for my own food.
that's probably your own fault, then. either you can't cook or you covet their junk food. Either way, it's your problem. If you don't have as much money to spend on food every month as people get on EBT cards, you might look into signing up for one because it's not really that much money.
Maz:
What could the Great Chief offer them?
There's such a thing as freedom from want, too. That's a freedom the right seems value very little.
I never agreed with the leftie-inspired, Norman Rockwell-endorsed notion of "freedom of want." What a bunch of nonsense. That implies that if you want something, whether you deserve it or earned it or not, you should have it. If I earned a loaf of bread, and you didn't, do you deserve half because you want it? I don't think so. Now, if I choose to give you half, that's another story. That's what ulee was referring to. People shared what they had because they wanted to ... not because some government was compelling them to. Christian conservatives give far more to charity that non-conservatives do. You can look it up, I'm too busy.
Yeah. God damn that Norman Rockwell. Fucking commie.
You have a cartoonishly selfish and simplistic understanding of the world, Maz.
max...once again you miss the point...it's called principle...duh.
If you don't have as much money to spend on food every month as people get on EBT cards, you might look into signing up for one because it's not really that much money.
Why should I get it? Just because I could? If I can get the government to take money from someone else and give it to me, that means it must be ok? Why don't I cut out the middleman and steal it for myself?
If I earned a loaf of bread
I have a hard time reconciling collecting casino profit with the concept of earning.
Frankly I would sure like to see the United States as a country with "freedom from need".
I need lovin'. The government should line up something for me.
That's what ulee was referring to. People shared what they had because they wanted to ... not because some government was compelling them to.
Yes and no. Although I hate to belabor the point, what I admire about your forebears isn't their sense of generosity so much as their systematic redistribution of resources meant to ensure the well-being of the entire social unit (which, in turn, ensured the well-being of the individual and bla bla bla bla...). It meant that sometimes, somebody got something that in the short run, they hadn't technically earned, but that they were nonetheless entitled to simply by virtue of their belonging to the group and of their contributions (potential or actual) in the long run.
Anyway, it's not super different from how I consider my foray with social welfare, that's all. And the work I was able to do on account of it did more for my "dignity" than any sort of claim to sociopolitical orthodoxy.
Yeah, why should MY tax dollars pay to educate kids? They haven't EARNED the right to my money yet!
uhhh
"God damn it annoys the shit out of me when neoncon tards bitch about how their poor widdle paychewks are being stowen by the big bawd gubbement man to give to poor people who are *so* undeserving because they can't just get a job and quit freeloading!"
- - -
Sometimes, I have to simply bow to the better reasoned, better presented argument.
- - -
"Then they go and defend a war that costs MANY TIMES OVER AS MUCH. If you're so worried about getting 'taxed to death,' why don't you go after the huge expenses like the military-industrial complex or completely mismanaged wars where 8 billion dollars in cash disappears mysteriously and the only answer is 'oops?"
- - -
I'm not worried at all about being taxed to death. I suspect you know that wasn't the thrust of my rant, but I understand that this re-reading makes it ever so much easier for you to respond.
I have no problem paying taxes for things that are necessary and prudent and are within the proper functions of government, plus, as a two-fer, I think the war in Iraq was justified, will reap huge benefits for the world, and should continue. I do have a problem watching my money get wasted on the whims and feel-good initiatives pursued by vote-buying pols who set up the spending without going to the trouble of first thinking through what will work and what won't (who cares, it's the government's money, right?) I also have a problem with the idea that the group of people who think that they have some "human right" to my labor simply because they're alive and so I must "owe" it to them is a fast growing group, primarily because the Democratic Party's vote-gathering theme is one of class warfare, of "vote for us, and we'll help you take the results of other people's work, and you not only don't have to feel guilty for always taking, we'll help you convince yourself that the people you're taking FROM are the ones who should feel guilty!"
(Was that all one sentence? Wow.)
But, you can go ahead now and claim that I'm arguing that the poor should only eat unripe kumquats, and then destroy such an obviously stupid . . what did you call it? . . . "tard" . . . idea. Maybe tell me how annoyed you are - I'm still not able to trump that. We'll all respect you the more for it.
(People still say " 'tard"?).
what exactly do CEOs do that results in their million dollar compensation? I'm pretty sure most of that money is produced by their workers and not any direct work the CEO does. But then, who takes it all home at the end of the day?
If you think the war in Iraq was such a great idea and whizz-bang success and money well spent, how do you feel about the 8 BILLION dollars on fucking pallets that mysteriously 'vanished' after being sent to Iraq? Is that money well spent? Cost of doing business? Oh, wait, that's the goverment's money, right?
And furthermore, please desist with the run-on sentences. That's painful to parse, man.
If you really want to see some "class warfare," you should see what would happen if you cut support to all those social welfare programs you hate so much. There's a lot of resentment under the surface, but television and food in the belly keeps most people from doing anything about it. Take those away and good luck keeping any sort of social order.
Put all those workers together in a large building. Give them desks, computers, phones, whatever. Walk away. See how much value they generate. Probably none, because they need ideas and leadership and structure. Biomass with free time makes no money by itself.
A good CEO is the leader of the company, the person charged with constantly reviewing where the company is and where it's going, directing it toward better paths, setting the right tone and atmosphere and imposing expectations and discipline, deciding what the company can do and should do. You can see, in profitability terms, how companies with good CEO's do compared to those without. As obscene as those pay rates look, in $/hour terms, the good ones are good investments. McGuire's compensation looks obscene, until you compare it to the profits the company made that are directly attributable to the decisions he made and the leadership he provided. (Of course, people can make dumb hiring-the-CEO decisions, too. Please don't respond with something like "but, look at Enron . . . !")
A billion dollars on pallets? (Sorry, could you type louder? I can't hear you over that straw man mumbling in the corner next to you.)
Agree about staving off revolution. But a valid need to provide some safety net is hardly justification for maintaining a permanent underclass through entitlement bribery, and when we're speaking of an underclass whose main symptom is obesity, I think we're way past the "We must take up arms to feed our children" stage. (No real worker's revolution can be founded on "more diet programs for our kids!") Yeah, some level of support keeps the social order. But there's also a level that discourages self-improvement, that makes any struggle to achieve something better appear to be simply a sucker's bet, and I think we're far closer to that point than we are to revolution.
.
It is very annoying to be in a supermarket line with nonEnglish speaking people using EBT with several kids while my husband and I both work 2 jobs each to support 2 kids at the University of Minnesota because we don't qualify for financial aid. We drive a 1997 truck and a 1994 car and have lived in the same 3 bedroom rambler for 27 years, but at least we know the value of working hard and supporting our own. Northwest Airlines is always hiring at $9.00 an hour-instead of mooching off the government payroll get yourself a job or 2.
It is very annoying to be in a supermarket line with nonEnglish speaking people using EBT with several kids while my husband and I both work 2 jobs each to support 2 kids at the University of Minnesota because we don't qualify for financial aid.
Gotta love jealousy-based xenophobia!
WTF does the family's language have to do with whether they deserve EBT relative to you?
And what does it matter how many kids they have?
And what do you really know about that family anyway?
...my husband and I both work 2 jobs each to support 2 kids at the University of Minnesota because we don't qualify for financial aid.
You conservatives still don't get it. Instead of working more, you should work less. Then you'll get financial aid. When my wife went back to school a few years back, I looked at all the things that would change for the better financially if I worked less. With less Income Tax, the Earned Income Credit and MN Working Family Credit, and Financial Aid, we came out only very slightly worse off than if I'd continued working full-time. Why work your ass off for what you can get for nothing?
FFS.
I give up.
IF EVERYONE-ESPECIALLY THE ORIGINAL AUTHOR OF THIS POSTING-AND ALL YOU CRYBABIES OUT THERE WHO ARE SO WORRIED ABOUT WHAT THE NEXT GUY IS DOING, SPENT MORE TIME TAKING YOUR OWN INVENTORIES AND TRYING TO BETTER YOURSELVES INSTEAD OF TAKING OTHER PEOPLE'S INVENTORIES AND PASSING JUDGEMENT - THE WORLD WOULD BE A HE** OF A BETTER PLACE !! LAST TIME I CHECKED THERE WAS ONLY ONE JUDGE AND YOU KNOW WHO I MEAN.
AS AN UNEMPLOYED PERSON, WHO IS USED TO BRINGING HOME AT LEAST 40,000/YR AND IS NOW DEPENDENT ON HITTING A FOOD SHELF TO PUT TOGETHER MEALS-AND YES I COOK FROM SCRATCH AND ALWAYS HAVE-THERE IS ONLY SO MUCH YOU CAN DO WITH 5 CANS OF PUMPKIN PIE FILLING, 3 CANS OF CRANBERRY SAUCE, AND DRIED BEANS, NO MEAT MIND YOU-YES THAT IS WHAT MOST MORONS BUY TO DONATE, LIKE THE POOR AND HOMELESS SIT AROUND TRYING TO GLEAN SOME SUSTINANCE FROM EATING PIE FILLING ALL DAY. I RESENT THE HE** OUT OF SOME OF THESE COMMENTS. IT IS ACTUALLY CHEAPER TO BUY MAC AND CHEESE AND 10-PKS OF FROZEN BURRITOS TO STRETCH A DOLLAR AND BELIEVE ME, I HAVE ALWAYS UNIT PRICED, USED EVERY COUPON I COULD GET MY HANDS ON EVEN WHEN I AM WORKING TO STRECH A DOLLAR AS I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN BUDGET MINDED.
ALSO, IF I EVER RUN INTO ANOTHER PERSON ON THE STREET THAT CALLS A HOMELESS PERSON AN "ALCOHOLIC BUM" I WILL PERSONALLY KICK THEIR A** ON THE SPOT. HOW IGNORANT ARE YOU ORIGINAL POSTER?? YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW THEY GOT IN THAT SITUATION, HOW DESPERATE THEY FEEL ALL OF THE TIME, FRANKLY, I DON'T BLAME THEM FOR WANTING TO TRY TO FORGET THE NIGHTMARE THEY ARE LIVING, I'D WANT A DRINK TOO! PERSONALLY, I HAVE MET MORE WEALTHY "ALCOHOLIC BUMS" THAN I HAVE PEOPLE THAT LIVE ON THE STREET OR IN SHELTERS. FRANKLY, I THINK I MAY JUST START FERVENTLY PRAYING THAT YOU, ORIGINAL POSTER FIND YOURSELF IN A POSITION OF HAVING 3 MAJOR DEVASTATIONS IN YOUR LIFE THAT CAUSE YOU TO BECOME HOMELESS. THEN WE'LL SEE JUST HOW YOU HANDLE YOUR FOOD STAMPS AND IF YOU FEEL A NEED TO TAKE A DRINK AFTER YOU HAVE HAD TO SPEND A FEW NIGHTS OUT ON THESE STREETS!! DO NOT KID YOURSELF!!! IT CAN HAPPEN TO ANYONE NO MATTER WHAT THEIR FINANCIAL STATUS AND RIGHT NOW I CAN'T THINK OF A BETTER PERSON FOR IT TO HAPPEN TO!!!!!!!!!!! WHY DON'T YOU CLIMB DOWN OFF OF YOUR PEDESTAL AND JOIN THE REAL F***ING WORLD-YOU HIGH AND MIGHTY JERK!
What, is internet access free now?
Thanks you for that, Lori, because writing everything in caps and making open threats does not make you at all seem to be crazy.
Amen Lori. Couldn't have said it better myself. I work full time, have two kids, but I depend on that food assistance every month to provide food for my kids. I, too, use every coupon I can, if I can live without it, I don't buy it, I buy generic or whatever is on sale, and I make every penny stretch until it can't stretch any more.
I will say it is the people who abuse the program that give it a bad name for everyone else. Some of us do hold down a job, sometimes two, sometimes both of them full time. It's the people who have multiple children with multiple men (in excess of 3), refuse to work, cannot hold down a job, lack a high school education, and the people who "work the system" that give this program a bad name.
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