Secrets of the City

I get the feeling you didn’t even read the Dirty Curls piece on the use of sexual violence in comedy that you’re commenting on.

I was raped. For a while, everyday I would wake up trying to think about anything else instead of what happened: How I couldn’t feel… anything. How I felt like my soul had floated out of my body, and had its eyes closed during it.
I would think, “Don’t think about it. Don’t think about it. Don’t think about it.” Eventually, I stopped thinking about it.
I never think about it. Never talk about it. I didn’t tell anyone for years. I know it would kill my family if they found out, so I would never, ever tell them. I love them so much and I don’t want to make them sad.

For the record, Cristina. <a href=”http://www.dirtycurls.com/2010/05/on-rape-jokes.html”>this</a> addresses all of your questions. Also, I’m insulted that you are directing this toward Max — there are two women that were highly involved in the writing process of that blog post.
We — yes, everyone in Courtney McClean & The Dirty Curls — never said don’t tell the joke.  We explicitly say that such a topic simply deserves much more care. We’re not asking that people stop telling rape jokes, merely suggesting that everyone consider the joke before telling it. Is it worth it.
We are also saying that in no way do we think sexual violence is funny. 
Your post on this, Cristina, could have at least taken the time and consideration that we took in crafting our thoughts about rape jokes that we posted on the Dirty Curls blog (link above)

Count me in for not finding rape jokes funny, especially when men tell them.  Maybe I’m sensitive, but I find them a cheap way to get a laugh.

I think Max may have a tendancy to overanalyze. They’re not funny, they’re just desperate for a laugh and the laugh is only goal. Probably because they hate their day jobs. That, and we’re a nation in decline.

I didn’t overanalyze that, did I?

I did a story based on Gran Torino about why we laugh when we “shouldn’t.”  Basically it’s a cognitive dissonance thing.
In the media, it’s interesting how rape is held to a different standard from all other crimes. We don’t name rape victims, while we would name the victim of pretty much any other crime. Some people think that’s a bad thing – as Cristina suggests – the act of “protecting” the victim is another form of victimization.
I’m not sure.  At any rate, I’m not in favor of telling comedians that a certain topic is off limits.  But I wouldn’t mind if the funny people could find something other than rape jokes and racist jokes.

This kind of humor is what I call “Franken Funny.”

Sometimes we laugh out of great discomfort. Maybe that’s the case with something like rape jokes?
 
Also, in this era of self-destructing celebrities, maybe laughter is generated not by the joke itself but by the black humor we see when someone do something so blatantly outrageous. E.g., some of Sam Kinison’s comedy was arrived at by simply watching him have a near-coronary as he worked himself into a “rage.” Bobcat Goldwaite’s early “schtick” was as much about his apparent performance nervousness as it was what was coming out of his mouth.

The British version of The Office deftly used the medium of humor that made you uncomfortable. But it was done with some flair. The jokes cited here is just classless crap. We give them too much credit by holding them up to some analysis.

Well, as a survivor of a life-threatening rape, as a hospital and legal advocate for male and female victims of rape, as a sexual violence prevention educator for university students, and as a child protection worker who helps a lot of raped kids (aka sexual abuse victims), I don’t find rape jokes funny. Rape is a hell of a lot more than unwanted sex. It upends your entire sense of self and safety. After rape, the world is simply not the same. Rape is about power and control, and it feels a lot like emotional/symbolic rape when someone co-opts the terrifying, panic-inducing, out-of-control experience of rape and uses it as currency to buy laughs, even if the joke-teller is him/herself a survivor.
One in 4 women and 1 in 6-10 men have experienced sexual assault (US DOJ, 2001). When you tell a rape joke, someone around you has lived it. Even if you are a survivor and can handle joking about your trauma, do really want to retraumatize someone who survived rape — and who isn’t able to handle joking about it — just for a laugh?
If you think telling rape jokes is progressive and shouldn’t be off limits, fine. Tell jokes about your own rape experience. Don’t generalize it to the rape experiences of others, because in doing so you’re putting other victims/survivors in a position where they again find themselves helpless and at the mercy of the person in control…you. You are going to trigger somebody’s PTSD and send them into a panic attack, or give them night terrors, or make them afraid to leave their house. As a crisis advocate, I work with women all the time who are triggered by a sly rape joke in the back of a classroom, or in a bar, or on a stage, and it sends them into an anxiety tailspin. Those risks alone should be enough to convince you to find a different kind of joke to tell.
By telling rape jokes, you are contributing to a culture that finds rape funny and perpetuating rape myths. YOU find rape funny. YOU believe that victims of serious crimes don’t deserve protection from having their terror made light of. And contrary to the idea that by joking about rape, we are able to begin a dialogue about it, there is absolutely no empirical evidence indicating that attitudes about rape have been improved by rape jokes. On the contrary, copious social science research notes that rape jokes perpetuate rape myths and desensitize people to the horror of rape.

i have to agree with noodleman’s comment “Sometimes we laugh out of great discomfort”. over the past 6 months, i’ve found myself making jokes about my Mom who passed away after a 90 day battle with cancer. yeah, she probably had the cancer for years, but from day of diagnosis to her death it was less than 3 months. anyway, i notice i have been making jokes about my Mom dying and cancer and hospice and all the stuff she dealt with before her passing. it’s obvious it makes a lot of people uncomfortable, and i don’t know why i do it, but for a few minutes it makes me (and some of my close friends) laugh and i feel some relief from the grief of my Mom’s death.
not sure how you can relate/equate this with rape jokes (which i don’t like) but that’s just my contribution to all of this.

Leave it to Kwatt to inject politics in to this thread.  Loser.

That’s SENATOR Franken Funny to you, kwatt.

Don’t attend comedy shows where rape jokes are told.  I do not see it as funny but some people do, it is not anyones place to tell others what is and is not funny.  The politically correct police are out again and on the hunt for another “cause”.  This is showmanship and a way for Max to get attention.  Life is a cruel mean game and often times it is quite ironic and funny.  I hope Max provides us all a list of material HE thinks is appropriate. 

Michele Bachmann’s a bit of a comedienne herself. I laugh at a lot of what she says, e.g. asking why GM got a bailout but not Ford. ROTFLMAO But the moron act is wearing a bit thin now and she needs to find a new schtick. Sarah Palin, who should also be enshrined in a comedy Hall of Fall, has got the redneck market all wrapped up. Maybe MB could instead become a “domestic goddess,” like Rosanne was in her days? We need more comediennes out there willing to play housewives. Lucille Ball had great success doing that, and Phyllis Diller can still knock them dead talking about her husband, Fang.
 
Pawlenty’s a joke, too.

Rape jokes are cheap.  A rape joke is about shock value, and not about the wit and finesse of a comedian.   I don’t assume rape is in a category separate from, as you put it, “niggers, pollacks, genocide, terror, incest, abortion, poverty, violence…”  All of those things are triggering to those who have suffered through such traumas and persecution.  I’m not a prude, and enjoy dark humor, but I do not see the value of jokes made simply to shock.  Re-traumatizing people for a laugh? Is this what our society has come to?  It’s desensitizing our society to the terrifying experience of rape, and the long term mental/emotional after-effects of rape.

For anyone who hasn’t seen The Aristocrats and is considering it, don’t bother.  The South Park telling is more straight up and hilarious than the rest of the movie combined.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyKGHVA6rb0

swandog’s “cynic” act is showmanship, and nothing more than a ploy to get attention.
 
Nobody can ever be wronged, or legitimately offended. No, everything is always merely an act to gain false sympathy and attention.
Sure it might be easy to avoid IF you know that a certain comic always tells those kinds of jokes, and is listed in the line up, or you know enough about the venue to know that material is likely. But that’s not always the case. Maybe it’s a new comic, or a new comedy joint that you’re not familiar with, maybe you’ve seen him before in a place with different policies that kept him from using part of his material, but this time doesn’t have that limitation. Maybe he’s changing his material. Maybe you’re in a city that you’re not familiar with the venues.

Maybe it’s open-mic night.
 

@ mnblrmkr – You assume people give a shit if you or other people are offended at a comedy club. Maybe you should avoid comedy clubs if you are so afraid of socially inappropriate material.

uhm, swanie, that’s kind of what kicked this whole thing off: someone DID “give a shit” and in trying to open a dialog about this, has spoken up.

swandog must not be offended by anything. Ever.
 

Clarification – i DO think that any grossly gratuitous joke is USUALLY not funny. And I do believe that rape jokes, race jokes, incest jokes, terror jokes, violent jokes… are usually only funny when they are essentially turning things on their head and using humor to point out just how incredibly fucked up we are.

@ mnblrmkr – The person that did give a shit, Max, is and always was offended by the wind blowing.  It is his opinion and my point is, if you do not like what is said at a given venue, then don’t go to that venue.  We have a right to offend people, if we so chose to do so.                  I would argue that rape jokes when it comes to the religious people are completely fine and on the table.  They make a point that needs to be made.   I still think this is a new cause for Max to get attention.   
 
@noodleman – I don’t get offended by others because I could care less what other people think of me.   

Let’s not turn this into a Max attack, swandog. That was not my intention AT ALL. I rather like the dapper fella’. Stick to the topic at hand.

Frankly, I think if we’re going to question comedy — and what should or should not be the target for humor — than we might as well question The Daily Show and the Cobert Report (which I LOVE). I mean, should we really be laughing at the nation’s problems? This is SERIOUS shit! This is where it’s important to consider the true function and purpose of comedy. While I find it troublesome at some level that we’re laughing at this shit, I think it’s some of the most intelligent and poignant commentary about society — and our fuckedupedness.

I’m struggling to find a point here…
Are we advocating censorship as to not offend people?
 

“The person that did give a shit, Max, is and always was offended by the wind blowing. “
 
Hardly. You should read the lyrics he writes. Or his plays. And he’s hardly the only one offended, if that’s even the right word.
 
And you totally missed my point. Of course you should avoid venues or comedians if their brand of humor offends  you. And if you were actually following this, you would understand that is what he and the band he is in does.   But you don’t always know in advance that is the case. Like I said, maybe it’s a new place, or a new comic, or you’re in an unfamiliar town, or as noodleman pointed out, it’s open-mic night.

@swandog: You obviously have little concern, then, for how other people are treated.

i find you incredibley lame for not posting any of the intellectual responces. way to win a fight.

baker, no.
 
But that doesn’t mean one is immune to criticism if you choose to engage in that kind of “humor” or that you’re entitled to someone’s soapbox to spew it.

Cristina,
 
I think it comes down to a couple of things: the relative “power” of the target, and the ability of the target to alter their condition. When it comes to the Daily Show etc., the US is still one of the most powerful countries in the world, and much of our problems are self inflicted. You can’t really say the same thing about a rape victim (in the present discussion) or a persons disability, for another example.
That’s not to say that a person in either case can’t use humor to take ownership/power of their position or condition, but when someone else does it, it generally strikes me as a form of bullying or intimidation, meant to keep the target in a weaker position.

What I find hilarious is when people think you have to try that hard to be funny.
Fortunately, I come from a culture where we tend to laugh when we’re dead serious and look ashen when things are funny. 
This whole discussion is just the flip side of ennui, the incredible luxury that comes from people who think they have experienced just about anything but have done it all as voyeurs, from a distance.  It’s largely about pretenders and posers.
There’s a kind of funny in watching people preen that hard, yes.  The jokes?  Stupid, really.

What I find hilarious is when people think you have to try that hard to be funny.
Fortunately, I come from a culture where we tend to laugh when we’re dead serious and look ashen when things are funny. 
This whole discussion is just the flip side of ennui, the incredible luxury that comes from people who think they have experienced just about anything but have done it all as voyeurs, from a distance.  It’s largely about pretenders and posers.
There’s a kind of funny in watching people preen that hard, yes.  The jokes?  Stupid, really.

The few comedians that I’ve heard use rape jokes tend to schew to the younger, frat boy demographic.  I’m not sure what it is about rape that they find funny, other than the shock value, but the second I hear a joke like that, my esteem of that person instantly drops off the map.  I like dark humor a lot, and I’m hardly a member of the PC police, but rape jokes are, IMO, hardly ever well thought out enough to be even close to amusing.
 
“why is it OK to joke about niggers, pollacks, genocide, terror, incest, abortion, poverty, violence, younameit, but rape is somehow off limits?”
I rarely find these subjects humorous, either, unless done by an incredibly good comic like Chris Rock or Lewis Black.
 

Just to clarify, the post was authored by all three Dirty Curls (I wrote the actual text, but the ideas were all of us), and it’s not an argument against rape jokes. We explicitly say that we think sexual violence is not off-limits for comedy, but, because it is a subject that can potentially cause a lot of pain, it’s worth examining the joke before you tell it. We then discuss some of the possible ethics in telling a joke, and some questions that may be worth asking in writing a joke about sexual violence. And we simply addressed that subject because we’ve been hearing a lot of rape jokes lately; we feel the same way about any jokes that could potentially target somebody who has already been victimized.
Thank you for Clarifying, Cristina. The subject of what can and cannot be jokes about is an interesting one, but not the one the Dirty Curls were addressing.
And it’s not about what is offensive and isn’t; there are few things on earth more offensive than Courtney McClean & The Dirty Curls. That is also addressed in the essay, which you are welcome to read or not to, as you prefer. I would, however, ask that you not assume my viewpoints, or the viewpoints of the Dirty Curls, before reading what we wrote. I know that’s an unusual request to make of Swandog, but I really prefer criticism of me to be educated, rather than invented on the spot:
http://www.dirtycurls.com/2010/05/on-rape-jokes.html

mnblrmkr, I don’t see how institutionalized violence is somehow more OK than individual violence.

As per Max’s post it is, perhaps, about who the TARGET of the joke is. If the target is the cocksucker(s) committing the violence, then OK. If the target is the victim, then it’s NOT OK. The problem is that the way comedy works, the target appears to be all of the above most of the time.

But the Rat is right; I tend to overanalyze things.

“mnblrmkr, I don’t see how institutionalized violence is somehow more OK than individual violence.”
 
Not sure what  you’re referring to here.
 
 

I don’t know, call me a simpleton but my baseline for something being funny is if it makes me laugh.
It seems to me that the most obvious thing you can do if you don’t find something funny is not laugh and then perhaps afterward tell the comc that you were offended and why. Tell them why directly, don’t make a blanket statement. Tell them why directly.
I’ve had a similar conversation with another black comic and white comics about race, which is a extremely volitile topic to discuss. I’ve told comics something has offended me and there’s a recording of me stating me opinion on a particularly offensive word to me (that’s not race related). Somehow it managed not to be the clusterfuck I’m seeing on facebook.
I’ve also discussed this issue with a rape victim, I’ve been around a rape victim when a rape-related joke has been told. I’m not going to say this persons opinion is right or wrong because individuals should not speak for entire groups of people but they concur with me that if they don’t find something funny they don’t laugh, that’s pretty fucking powerful in and of itself. Trust me, if they aren’t getting laughs, someone will eventually stop telling the joke. Some people are dumb and it takes longer but pretty much everyone, will stop telling a joke (offensive or not) or at least rewrite it, if it is not getting laughs.
I’m never going to make a blanket statement on a topic, including rape and including saying nigger. I’ll just say this, if you’re going to do it, you better think that shit out and have a good reason for saying it in your joke and be prepared for the consequences. As in, it doesn’t work if you substituted something else or didn’t say it.
Also, I agree with many unpopular opinions on this thread. And some popular opinions. I laughed at the propellor scene in Titanic, also.
 

@Max -  I read your manifesto, great you are against rape jokes.  Me too,  So what.  So your comedy group will not perform at locations you and your group deems as cruel to a given group of people, again so what.  It is great that you are against a given type of joke but who really cares.  Humor is often times mean and cruel, you are not going to change that by pretending to be some kind of humor activist against a given type of joke or comedian.  If people laugh, the joke is funny, if they do not laugh the joke is not funny.  The article you wrote is a means of gaining notice to sell your shows.   You are targeting a given type of person that agrees with your point of view and are inviting them to be part of your show vs some more politically incorrect show.  That is just good old fashioned marketing.  Good luck with your show.

man, I’d hate to see what sawndog would have been saying in the 1850′s, or during the civil rights movenments: “King is just whoring to get people to come to his speeches so he can cell books. Life’s a bitch,who cars if you can’t vote, suck it up and get back to… ”
 
Believe it or not swandog, people do have honest opinions and care about things. And that often translates into honest discussions and actions to address those things.
 
Oh, and there’s really nothing “politically correct” about a Dirty Curls song or show. I’m; sure Max would be the first to tell you that.

“If people laugh, the joke is funny, if they do not laugh the joke is not funny.”
 
Thanks, Captain Obvious.

Seems like an oftly in depth conversation to determine whether or not Sarah Silverman is funny or not.
I generally fall on the not side of the arguement, but she is pretty hot.
On a side note…Larry the Cable guy is Coming….are you all SUPER PSYCHED!!!!
 

Thank you internet, I’m glad that I was able to find this documentary from the now defunct (I think), Trio network called “Sick Jokes”.
http://smashingtelly.com/2007/07/25/sick-humor/

Sick Humor, I mean.

What if the comic is a rape victim? Is it then ok to tell rape jokes?

Rape jokes are only funny if they’re told by somebody you can tell has been raped.
Am I right, ladies?

I don’t think it’s ever OK. It’s sad, pathetic and desperate for a laugh. That’s why watching standup comedy is mostly painful. The political ones are the worst.

Rat would also like you kids to stop horsing around on his lawn, no talking in the hallway and stop smiling at each other.
Rat, I’m not arguing with you when I ask this, I am truly inquiring out of curiousity. And I hate this question when I get asked it, so feel free to name specific bits or whatever but – who do you find funny? What comics, sitcoms, funny movies, satirical writing, etc do you find funny?

You need a laugh? You call a Wise Guy

Good grief, Rat. I’m going to go watch Dogville Shorts now.

Not just that, I like(d) a lot of Billy Murray humor. I watched a lot of Chaplin, Buster Keaton. Otherwise it’s gotta be wry and dry.

For some reason I found Beavis and Butthead funny, in small doses. I don’t like South Park as much.

There was this episode of “Jackass” where some guy dressed in a panda suit and ran around with a skate board and just goofed around and hugged people on the street.  For some reason, I found this HI-larious (and I usually find Jackass stupid).

Rosanna Arquette was funny in Desperately Seeking Susan. She was cute and kinda slapstick funny.  

“Rat would also like you kids to stop horsing around on his lawn,”
Kids are on The Rat’s lawn every weekend. He tolerates it.

I ain’t gonna front, I can’t get enough of the clip “Dog Milking A Goat”. I don’t know why but every time I watch it, I end up laughing hysterically. I don’t know why. I honestly don’t know why it kills me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8SLTvA39xI

I bet you tolerate because you spray your lawn with toxic chemicals, dontcha?

Alie is that a winky face or is that a drunk emoticon?

“What if the comic is a rape victim? Is it then ok to tell rape jokes?”
 
I would say yes.  If it’s a way for them to “own”/take control of their experience. Same thing applies to race, gender, disability, etc.  To me, it’s similar to parts of the gay community embracing Queer.

@alie: No. The whole neighborhood has some kind of It Takes a Village thing going. It go along, but I wasn’t consulted for my opinion.
 
Haven’t sprayed the lawn in couple years. What’s the half-life of that stuff?

I was raped and I just wanted to thank Max for his stance and starting this conversation. I really appreciate it, because I’m too chickenshit and scared to say anything about rape. I never ever talk about it, and would never ever tell my family. It is too painful. They would die. I don’t even remember the guys looked like. I hope they are dead or in jail, but at least I know they’re going to hell. Every time I hear a rape joke, I feel like I’m being raped again.

Swandog:  “I read your manifesto, great you are against rape jokes.” Read it again:  that’s not what was said. 
Again:  WHO IS YOUR TARGET? The perpetrator?  or the victim?  If it’s the victim, I’m afraid there’s no way around it:  you are okay with the violence and the perpetrator you are supposedly making fun of. 
Also – speaking of marketing tactics – you’re still using the term “politically (in)correct?”
“If people laugh, the joke is funny, if they do not laugh the joke is not funny.”  Actually, this is a total fallacy.  People laugh out of shock and horror too. 
 
 
 
 

Someone who has survived sexual assault and using a joke to reclaim their voice and experience is ok and given the joke, funny.
Someone who has never experienced that using rape as a joke because obviously, dude, she wanted it, is not funny. I think this boils down to the embedded sexism in society where women’s bodies and lives are secondary, disposable, “trade-offs” to “people” aka men by default. For example: http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2010/05/what-about-menz-indeed.html

My apologies to all for previously unpublished comments that got somehow caught in our spam filter.

Coco, when a post has an author’s name on it, I assume that author wrote it. My bad.

And stevemarsh, if you’re right about that then I have full rape-joke license. Coooooool. Still, I prefer dead baby jokes.

Hello! What an interesting and lively discussion. I work at the Brave New Workshop Theater in Uptown and as some of you may know, we specialize in satirical sketch comedy. 
The idea of what is “crossing the line in comedy” comes up quite often in our writing process. If we were to organize a round table discussion at the Brave New Workshop would people be interested? 
If not, carry on. Carry on. 

Can we just re-establish that women are not the only ones raped? Yes, statistically the majority of people raped are women but men are raped as well. Saying that this is a women’s issue or suggesting that women are the only victims doesn’t at all help men who are victims of rape heal or overcome any stigmas that they or others see as associated with male rape.  

Bixby – With a 90% rate of women getting raped and 97% of the perpetrators being men, sure, yeah, let’s remember to mention that men also get raped.  But it’s mostly by other men AND since 9 out of every 10 REPORTED rape victims is a woman (and how much money would you like to lay down that male victims are less scared to report than women?  I’ve got $1,000,000.)  Oh, and those are USA stats.  Ever heard of the Congo?  If you’re gonna make it “men vs. women” let’s not forget who the VAST majority of the perps are. 
Rape is an epidemic biased against women, for the most part.  Your concern-trolling is harshing my vibe. 

To all of you who have experienced sexual violence and have commented here (and even those that haven’t)… I hope you will always have a safe place to laugh and enjoy yourselves with The Dirty Curls.   Much love and healing. 

The first thing I thought when I read Max’s post was- “Oh- I’m *not* wrong about this.”  I stopped going out to see comedy because of the rape jokes, the sexist jokes, the racist jokes, the whoever you’re just being cruel to sort of jokes.  I figured I just didn’t get humor.  I want folks who perform to know this- people like me will just not go to your shows, and maybe you’re fine with that.  I now have a handful of local comedians whose work I really enjoy, will make me laugh and blush and think and forget and mostly just laugh my ridiculously loud guffaw at- but I’m done with the dude who badmouths his wife the entire time he’s on stage, the folks on stage who think it’s okay to make racist jokes because their best friend is black or asian- c’mon.  That stuff is cheap.
Comedy is something that I have a lot of respect for- it is NOT an easy thing to do, no kind of performance is easy, and humor is so nuanced that I can see how forcing people into that nervous laughter is easier than doing something less offensive.  I don’t think I could do any better than the folks who are trying, but humor can be so revolutionary- comedy can have fun and be piss and fart jokes, but there is so much power in being able to make people laugh.  Why beat up on people who are already being victimized?  This is such an important conversation to have.  I don’t know that ANY of this is about how much a whiner Max is or isn’t, and I appreciate that the Dirty Curls as a group had this discussion and then chose to bring it to the table for the rest of us to consider.

FYI:

An Open Letter to the Dirty Curls

Yup, we’ve seen that, Cristina, and I’ve been having a conversation with Patrick personally. 

Seems like a little perspective is long past due on this one. It has spiraled ridiculously out of control.

Maybe there’s a lesson here. Whether it’s the Dirty Curls or Bette Midler’s Divine Madness (NSFW) or the Aristocrats. When you let loose the smut there’s always one more who has to one-up the previous. That’s the lesson. The toothpaste is out of the tube at this point. Maybe the open letter is right. Shut up and do your bit and I’ll do mine. In the end we’ll all stink up the joint. 

I have to agree with Rat. Richard Pyror’s comedy was “edgy” back in the day but is tame now compared even to what Chris Rock does.
 
There also is the copycat factor, and I think that is at play here re: rape jokes more than than any kind of “evolutionary” concern, e.g. local comedian sees someone on Comedy Central who has an audience gut-busting (for its shock value?) and wants to emulate the same schtick.
 
Same thing happend in radio with the advent of shock jocks after the ascent of Howard Stern and The Greaseman.

I’m not buying the “we’ve been here longer and have seniority on the “Scene”" argruement.  It immediately shuts down valid discourse and makes you look defensive.