Secrets of the City

Why has our state legislature not decided to tax her for every stupid thing she says because it harms our state? MN would be so rich!

A couple of points to keep in mind: first, it’s illegal to break the law, not to threaten to break it. She’s done nothing legally wrong, yet, so let’s go easy on rounding up the hangin’ posse.

Second, one does not have to agree with Representative Bachmann in order to believe that the long-form census form has gotten out of control in terms of the questions asked.

Perhaps more significantly, the 2010 census forms apparently all will be much less intrusive than usual — much of Ms. Bachmann’s concern likely would be removed by reading this:

http://2010.census.gov/2010census/about_2010_census/007622.html

I would think that much of Ms. Bachmann’s concern would be removed simply by reading.

Additionally, I don’t think Bachmann’s ever really “concerned” by any of these issues. She’s just trying to create a commotion and whip her peoples into a frenzy.

She’s really a waste of DNA.

She’s done nothing legally wrong, yet, so let’s go easy on rounding up the hangin’ posse.

I’m not seeing where anybody accused her of actually breaking the law, much less tried to gather a lynching party. Or you simoly trying to stem what you feel will certainly be a massive influx of people doing that? In which case, I would suggest to not worry about it until it actually happens.

What a cruel comment, g rote.

Max, I was referring to the linked page, where the blogger urges that Bachmann be deprived of her freedom and where the first commenter accused her of being mentally ill.

I know that everyone here won’t resort to such excesses.

Dusty’s closing comment, I think faurly self-evidently, is meant to be understood as humorous, rather than an exhortation to action.

As to the first comment — well, her behavior does raise a lot of questions, but I am not qualified to diagnose mental illness. I think it would be wise for the Republican party to keep her out of the limelight, though, as she either believes her inane pronouncements, which is bad, or doesn’t, which is worse.

I, for one, applaud g_rote’s cruelty.

There’s no ASPCB, so it’s fine by me!

Bixby,

Weren’t we talking just last week about the alleged rise in right-wing ‘hate’ rhetoric? When a left-winger decries someone as being a ‘waste of DNA,’ that sure sounds like the same sort of dehumanizing hate-speech that earlier caused much concern in these parts.

I am qualified to diagnose batshit-craziness and I say that she most certainly is.

Other things I am qualified to diagnose:

- If people “be trippin’”
- Sketchy-assedness
- Hot messes (of all sexual orientations)

first, it’s illegal to break the law, not to threaten to break it.

Not neccesarily.  You can be charged with conspiracy to commit an illegal act.

The reason why people were concerned by the hate speech is because of the real-world implications for the persons being talked about. There’s a difference between mean-spirited and riling up the angry mob.

I don’t care about your crazy uncle who bitches about the black people moving into his neighborhood, I care about your crazy cousin who advocates preparing for a race war.

Threatening to break the law is different than composing a plan to break the law — that’s why organizing a bank robbery is illegal (even if the robbery never occurs), but telling a newspaper reporter that you’re going to rob a bank isn’t illegal, just foolish.

Did someone just call me a left-winger?

“There’s a difference between mean-spirited and riling up the angry mob.”

It’s sometimes a smaller difference than we’d prefer to believe, I bet, and the distinction observes no political boundary.

Fascinating.

I have no idea why you are telling me this.

I am not making a legal argument, I am making an argument about what concerns me and what I consider threatening.

Again, I don’t care that your uncle says he doesn’t like black people. I do care if your cousin says that he doesn’t have black people and is acquiring the tools necessary to prepare for a racial war.

But to address the point you made about the legality of doing something, it is illegal to call up somewhere and claim that you are going to blow them up. They’re called terroristic threats. Making them is foolish AND illegal.

a publicly elected official waste of DNA is leading her constiutents to believe that it’s ok to break the law if said law offends their sensibilites. Why does Bachmann hate America?

If Dusty had said people need to be armed and dangerous and that Bachmann is a neo-Nazi, I would not have linked to him.

This is not a subtle difference is rhetoric, Jack. Do you think it is? What can you point to in Dusty’s column that you would say is a call to violent action?

You mean like Ellison getting arrested for his civil disobedience re: the Palestinian situation? Why does he hate America?

Look, you may not like Bachmann or her politics, but she apparently intends to join a large, honorable group of people for whom civil disobedience is a useful tool for fighting a wrongheaded government. Rosa, meet Michelle, and Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., your spirit lives on in Stillwater, MN.

When did Ellison get arrested for civil disobedience regarding Palestine?

Also, if you read the article, Bachmann clearly believes it is legal to refuse information to the census, and she’s wrong. She’s not calling for civil disobedience. She’s misstating the law, which could potentially get her listeners a very large fine. That seems like a rather significant issue to me.

Trust me, if Ellison had said, hey, let’s all do this illegal thing, and it’s perfectly legal, I would have likewise asked what the hell is wrong with him.

Threatening to break the law is different than composing a plan to break the law — that’s why organizing a bank robbery is illegal (even if the robbery never occurs), but telling a newspaper reporter that you’re going to rob a bank isn’t illegal, just foolish.

When Bachmann talks about “her household refusing to answer the census questions” you could assume that she and her husband have discussed that action. That’s a conspiricy.

Or, if they haven’t discussed it yet, perhaps the relevant authorities should pay her a visit. Just like you can be sure the person that tells a reporter he’s going to rob a bank is likely to receive a visit from his friendly local police officer.

That’s perhaps just as important in her case, since she’s disseminating a lot of incorrect information regarding the census that could lead any number of her followers to commit a misdemeanor.

It is a bit difficult to have a reasoned discussion when people are not agreeing on the facts. The only act of civil disobedience I recall Ellison getting arrested for was in regards to the Sudan, and not Palestine, and he did not ask any of his constituency to join him. (Source: http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2009/04/rep_ellison_arr.php) Was there another arrest I am not aware of regarding Palestine where he did this?

Also, is there some evidence that, in the spirit of Dr. King, Bachmann was asking for a mass act of civil disobedience? Because, in the recording, it is clear that she just doesn’t know the law. And is there some evidence that ACORN is, in fact, planning to use the census data to screw up the next election? Because, if not, the parallel with Dr. King is an especially poor one. Dr. King never asked anybody to break the law for an unsourced conspiracy theory. That does not strike me as being honorable.

I think Dr. King would be extremely offended at being lumped in with the likes of a woman who is actively campaigning to deny a large group of people civil rights.

Um, she may be advocating civil disobedience when it comes to the census but I don’t think advocating armed revolution falls into the civil disobedience category. We aren’t talking about her saying just this, we’re talking about the aggregate of what she has said.

Also, she’s totally a hot mess.

Also, if Dr. King were still alive and Michele Bachmann were to join him anywhere, I’m not confident she wouldn’t yell “you be da man, you be da man”. Because, as I stated before, she’s a hot mess.

Is she a hot tranny mess?

I don’t know, Max I am not certified to determine Hot Tranny Messes. Although, perhaps her husband is.

Snap!

Her husband is close to a Hot Tranny Mess, but really, he’s just a Hot ex-Gay Mess, which is truly much more of a mess than any Tranny could ever be.

Could Dougie_D hop back on and let us know of Hot Tranny Mess should always be capitalized or if it is only capitalized when talking about the hottest of tranny messes.

Thanks!

I’d think it’d be just as likely for ACORN to rig elections by using the squirrels,that’s right,a squirrel conspiracy.

Dig up those nuts Bachmann.

I always knew those squirrels were up to no good.

I always thought Rocky the Squirrel was a communist who hated America for its freedom and wanted to destroy our very way of life.

/Dear Michele Bachmann, I’m kidding about this. We don’t need McCarthy hearings for a cartoon squirrel.
//Besides everyone knows that Dale Chipmunk is the real cartoon-rodent Communist. His red nose gives it all away.
///And Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer, who has been running a sleeper-cell at the North Pole for, like, a century.
////The War on Christmas could start any day now.
/////Can’t wait to hear Bachmann warn Jason Lewis next week about all these things.
///////////////////Slash-a-palooza!

Rocky and Bullwinkle did battle with Boris and Natasha, two bona-fide Commies, and then hit the campaign trail.

Bachmann needs to have gerrymandering explained to her. It’s why her district is shaped the way it is.

To sort of fair to her, she’s basing her claim on the US Constitution: That since only the number of people in the household is mandated in there, that any other question is unconstitutional.

A dubious position at best.

Just because enumeration is the only thing mandated, that doesn’t preclude Congress from authorizing collection of additional information.

If it’s not written in the constitution you don’t have to do it. I heard that from Wesley Snipes.

@mnblrmkr: What question on the census form would make her political affiliation known? If there is no such question, then her whole argument is moot. She doesn’t understand how gerrymandering works (political considerations are based on previous election results, IIRC; not census data, which is only used to apportion), nor does she understand that her election was the result of some previous gerrymandering.

I’m just basing her objections to the only quote I know of:

“The motherload of all data information will be from the Census. … Unfortunately, the Census data has become very intricate, very personal, a lot of the questions that are asked. I know for my family the only question we will be answering is how many people are in our home,” she said. “We won’t be answering any information beyond that, because the Constitution doesn’t require any information beyond that.”

I don’t see anything related to party affiliation in that quote, so I assume her objections included all of the other questions: anything beyond how many people in the household. She seems to think that that’s the only question that can be Constitutionally asked.

That may be the only question that’s mandated by the Constitution, but under it’s commerce clause powers and powers to levy taxes, Congress would certainly have the authority to authorize collection of additional data to exercise those powers.

Why not make up information that is not true, that is what I always do when I get any kind of survey. In the case of the census make up things that support what you want. Who cares if she does not answer the census questions, is it really that big of deal? I think what she is concerned about is governmental intrusion into our lives. She may be a nut-bag but she has won two elections. she is no more nuts than some on the far left. One nut can cancel out the other nuts, what a country.

As someone who has done market research, I’d much rather that she abstain from the census than make up data. If you don’t want to take a survey and you have option of opting out of it, please, just don’t take it.

Michele Bachman is just a constant reminder of how issue drive morons can cater to the lowest common denominator and be elected over and over.

I blame the new media for even covering this shrew. Stop the coverage and she will keel over like a slug in a pie pan of warm flat beer.

To clarify. I meant that, if you don’t want to take the survey and are considering making up data, please just opt out of it instead.

The census bureau collects more data than just the constitutionally mandated decennial census. There is the awesome survey of American Businesses, and the American Community Survey. Why should only big business have access to useful market data? We are after all a nation of small businesses. Congress agrees and has empowered several agencies to collect and disseminate data beyond their core functions. Hating/fearing the census is like being against the Bureau of labor statistics or the Social Security Administrations tracking of the popularity of baby names. Census workers take great pains to remove or protect of what they call PII(Personally Identifiable Information).

Wait, if you knowingly give false census information, you may run the risk of changing the voice of your county and/or state – well, if enough people did this.

Federal and state funding is predicated on the census.

I somehow got into a random conversation with one of the letter carriers/mail carriers – whatever they are now called – during the last census. He was expected to try to deliver census information to “white male, unknown age, south side of 3rd ave/central bridge near pillar___” I don’t envy that job or the census person’s job.

I did mapping/canvassing earlier this year for the census. We had to ascertain identifiable locations for transient people in the ‘Bush Camps’ down by the river.

B-I-L & Sis say it’s letter carriers, Cat.

I wonder if Bachmann has the same fears when it comes to all of the personally identifiable information that businesses collect from individuals?

Sorry Bix, I will always try to screw up the surveys I get or am called on. I take pride in the fact that I have had some advanced classes in marketing and am able to just enough screw with them to f-up their data.

@cat, that is exactly why you want to screw with the census. If you tell them information that provides more money to your community it benefits your town. The census is a politically correct instrument that is used to dole out cash to this group of people or that group of people. By scewing the data you are able to drive some of those dollars to your town or community.

I wonder if Bachmann has the same fears when it comes to all of the personally identifiable information that businesses collect from individuals?

she should be, that is as scary as the government having it.  It is one court order away from being available to the government in digital form.   The credit card companies collect massive amount of information and run it through computer programs that predict behavior.  Why couldn’t they just sell that to the government or had it over to them when asked.  The phone companies did it for Bush.  

Swandog, it’s just as likely that you’re going to screw your community out of funds.

To reliably steer things the way you want, you’re going to have to know and understand the exact formulas that are used to allocate the money.

Make a mistake in your assumptions, and you’re going to do your community more harm than good.

I take pride in the fact that I have had some advanced classes in marketing and am able to just enough screw with them to f-up their data.

You … and how many other people, too? Maybe that’s why District 6 got gerrymandered the way it did and Bachmann is in da House?

You aren’t fuckin’ the system, swandog. You’re fuckin’ with peoples’ lives.

Thanks mnblrmkr. Letter carrier letter carrier letter carrier letter carrier.

Oh, swandog. I don’t know whether to squeeze your guts out or noogie your bald spot raw.

There are other options to protest what you don’t like, swandog. Screwing with the census doesn’t seem like the smartest way to do this.

Swandog’s blustering.

If swandog knew anything about marketing and information it would know that the routines that process the data are extremely good about filtering out information that seems false. Also the vast majority of information gathered is not provided verbally but through transactions.

As much as you think you are a unique snowflake (in swandog’s case I will emphasize flake) your buying habits are likely very similar to people in your demographic.

To reliably steer things the way you want, you’re going to have to know and understand the exact formulas that are used to allocate the money.

I would venture to guess that if I tell them I am a poor minority with very little education that I am more likely to get funds for my community than not. 

Ah cat, I am not willing to give in to the MAN just yet.  Compliance is dangerous.  I know resistance is futile but I just gotta try.  I used to call the Pat Robertson 1-800 numbers and mess with them.  I would tell them I wanted to convert and they would go through their big speal and then when they asked for the money I would tell them I am sending them a huge sum of money for saving my soul.  I miss that game.  We need to mess with the system to keep them all on their toes.   

I would venture to guess that if I tell them I am a poor minority with very little education that I am more likely to get funds for my community than not.

ORLY? Apparently not, according to Tim Pawlenty’s unallotmenting. If you don’t want to share personal information, ok, fine. Leave the grid. That’s all you have to do. Leave the grid. Then no one will know anything about you and your … habits.

As much as you think you are a unique snowflake (in swandog’s case I will emphasize flake) your buying habits are likely very similar to people in your demographic.

I agree with you thats why I use cash.  I would argue someone making nine bucks an hour could not filter out my game.  You do not ever skew your demo too far just up to the point that they would see it as an outlier.  Why do you think when Nielsen calls they ask you if you work for some kind of media source, it is because they know you know how to mess with the game. 

Noodleman why the anger. I have a right not to tell the truth to anyone I want to, excluding some unique situations i.e. law ect.

swandog, if you can’t be honest, then don’t participate at all.

It’s not surprising that Republicans would have such low regard for an enterprise that involves collecting data, because they don’t ever use it to inform their own decisions.

I think everybody loves data, Kurtis.

swandog. If you had a clue how many reports, studies, projects, etc were based on census data, you would be mad at yourself for being cute.

He’s just being a child. I dreamed to “stickin’ the The Man” when I was like, 16.

Well, to be fair, I still dream of stickin’ it to Th… huh? Not the same? Ok, moving on.

swandog. If you had a clue how many reports, studies, projects, etc were based on census data, you would be mad at yourself for being cute.

No I am fully aware of the power of the census and I do not care if my action impacts the census.  I hope others manipulate all forms of data collection on our lives.  The census was never meant to have the power it has now.  Furthemore, it provides the politicians that control the sysetem to further manipulate their given districts.  Infomation is power. Data collecction on our lives is overert power that will and is used to control all of us.

Baker It might be childish but the one thing that a child knows is when they are being manipulated.  Children need and want to be accepted, I do not care, that is the main diffence in my out look and a childs.  Children follow when told, adults today seem to be qute child like, they follow like sheep to the slaghter.

“I think everybody loves data, Kurtis.”

I don’t know what this decision/sarcasm is based on, whichever it is supposed to be.

Not so at all Swandog.

The US census has NEVER been simply an enumeration of people. The 1790 collected names, and number of people (free and slave) in households. The 1800 census collected additional demographic info, and they started collection economic information in 1810. Both Jefferson and Madison were advocates of expanding the information collected. So even many of the Founding Fathers intended the census as a means to collect detailed information about American society.

Here’s a short history of the census.

Posturing on the internet is so cute.

Sawndog, even if I agreed (which I don’t) that children know when they’re being manipulated, you’re contradicting yourself. Someone who is aware they’re being manipulated is going to be much more resistant to following just because they were told to do so.

“because they don’t ever use it to inform their own decisions.”

I didn’t know what you were talking about either, Kurtis. Data is NEVER used for decision?

Interestingly form the EPIC history I linked to, it turns out that Bachmann is not the first Republican to advocate not completing the questionnaire. Trent Lott did the same thing in 2000.

The fact that one would rather take the time to fuck with a survey the could easily just opt out for no reason but to fuck with people is silly and lame. If you want to stick it to ‘em by making it harder, then don’t give them answers at all. Then they have to find more people for the sample. I opt out of surveys most of the time. If I have no option but to fill outa survey that I don’t want to take, I’ll pick the neutral number all the way down and give minimal answers and skip what I can.

And dougie_d is right, there are filters to deal with people like that anyway.

Also, you may pay with cash but enough people in your demographic don’t that your data is unnecessary.

But yeah, you’re totally fucking with the computer that crunches the numbers and factors out irregularities. Suck it, Intel!

I got paid $8.18 an hour to enter the 1880 Stearns County census into a database. Name, age, DOB, place of birth, and a ton of other stuff. Lots of Sven Svensons and Anders Andersons. Person I was doing it for, a prof, was mostly just interested in the Germans though.

Did you know that many Germans in Minnesota, if their families have been here since the 1800s, are of Jewish decent? Many Jews immigrated to MN then converted to Catholicism. And most have no idea.

And I know that has nothing to do with anything, but I don’t care.