Secrets of the City

Is a 13-year-old mature enough to make this kind of a potentially life-or-death choice?

Frankly, I don’t think it matters what the kid thinks or wants, in the eyes of the law.

If the kid wanted to go with the alternative medicine, but his parents did not, there is little doubt how it would turn out. Legally, the parents have the power to make the choise for him — which is what they are doing now.

So the (barely) teen is not really leading the fight — it’s the parents. Does that change anyone’s viewpoint on this difficult and emotionally charged case?

In his court papers, though, Daniel sounds defiant. “I claim this, as my right, that no one: No government, No big Brother, No Tribe, No other human being may interfere with my Spiritual Path and my consciousness.”

He should have added Crazy Parents to the list.  I have a hard time believing the whole ‘Faux Indian Medicine Man’ thang was the kid’s idea.

It’s America, Bob, and people have the right to be as stupid as they please, especially when it comes to religion. If we force this kid to take the chemo, it’s the same as forcing him, and his parents, to change their religious beliefs. And, we can’t do that. We may as well be telling them to believe the world took more than six days to create, that dinosaurs were here millions of years before man, that flu viruses are a perfect example of the truth of evolution, and that there is no Santa Claus.

The Court, if it ordered chemo for the kid, wouldn’t be forcing the parents or the child to change their beliefs at all. It would only force them to change their behavior. Totally different. What about the kid’s right to freely choose his religion, poor kid won’t have a chance if he’s dead. This case is all about the parents “right” to force their beliefs onto their kids even when it may cost the kid his life. Which does the most “good”?

Only Tom, they don’t have the right to be as stupid as they like in certain circumstances. This is one of them. It is likely that he will be forced into treatment to save his life. If his parents object to strongly, he can be removed from their custody for reckless endangerment.

It’s a thorny issue, no doubt, Tom. But I disagree with your statement “If we force this kid to take the chemo, it’s the same as forcing him, and his parents, to change their religious beliefs.”

If you forced an observant Muslim or Jew to eat pork, you have not forced them to change their beliefs — you just stuffed a Jimmy Dean sausage in their mouth against their will. You can’t force anyone to believe — that is truely up to them, and them alone.

In a sense, that may be what the county — which has a responsibilty to protect the health and safety of its residents –must do in this case.

Perhaps this mom should declare she is a member of the Church of the Seriously Impared Driver.

The parents really need to decide if chemo is against their “religion” since they already had their kid go the chemo route once and said they would do it again his cancer returns.

Seems more likely they don’t want their kid to go through the very unpleasant experience of chemo (which is very understandable) but also are undeniably stupid when it comes to understand cancer, its causes, and the treatments.

Ignorance and stupidity aren’t a good enough excuse for not having him treated.

My former BF had Hodgkins when he was in his early teens and a co-workers son had it when he was 2. Both have been cancer free since the treatment was finished.

How can these parents deny this child the chance of a health long life?

Seems more likely they don’t want their kid to go through the very unpleasant experience of chemo (which is very understandable) but also are undeniably stupid when it comes to understand cancer, its causes, and the treatments.

I thought the same thing. Even more stupid, is the fact that this kind of cancer has a 95% cure rate with chemo/radiation.

The kid already went through one round of chem, and as expected, it was unpleasant. They then decided to not do it again.

To top it off, they also say that if the cancer grows, they’ll reconsider chemo. Except that, the longer they let it go untreated, the lower the survival rate.

Doesn’t sound much like a religious issue. Just a matter of “I don’t want to feel sick from the treatment.”

Just a matter of “I don’t want to feel sick from the treatment.”

Which is why adults are supposed to have the foresight that brief pain can bring long term gain, or whatever other cliche you might like to use, and why kids don’t make important decisions. I wonder what would have happened if I ate ice cream for every meal for the first decade of my life…

This country gives a lot of latitude to individuals to make choices for themselves and their children in their care. This country also has a strong history of religious freedom. The question is is there a compelling interest for the state to step in at some point to force a treatment that violates the families beliefs? And do we want them to? And what it is to you? This is not a black or white situation.

Perhaps the family should figure out what they believe before flying the flag of religious freedom.

So if the state should not step in, like I heard Chris Baker advocating this morning on KTLK (don’t ask me why I was listening),
And the kid dies due to lack of treatment due to a choice his parents made, that is vaguely comparable to parents making a choice to have an abortion and never having had the kid in the first place. Yeah, except the fetus vs. child, etc…So Chris Baker believes in freedom of choice when it comes to a child’s life. hehehe

The “Comments Sponsored By” section is a bit grim on this thread.

Hmm… I’m all for individuals having the right to choose what is best for them, but I agree with Bob that a 13 year-old is most likely not mature enough to make such life/death decision on ihs own.

Parents do have the right to raise their children in the religion they deem fit and when the child is older, he or she can decide whether it’s belief that he/she wants to continue.

In this case, it seems as if religion is used as a cop out since they previously did a chemo treatment.

I guess it comes down to whether the state thinks that this falls under child abuse, perhaps.

While it’s idiocy to think you can cure cancer with vitamins and herbs, I think it’s also worth the fight to get the case heard. I’m sure the kid’s doctor didn’t feel right just letting the issue go and felt he had to do something to try and get the kid treated.

Besides, chemo has come a long way and there are other drugs that can be used to reduce nausea and pain.

Perversely enough, there’s a natural herb that could help the chemo along, but government doesn’t want him to have it.

Thing is, what they’re fighting for is pretty much settled law. And not in their favor.

It’s not like there’s only a 5% chance he’ll survive, it’s a risky, experimental procedure, or that this is the third occurrence of the cancer.

There is a spirited discussion regarding Minnesota’s own woo vs. sue maneno at Quiche Moraine.

Tom, no one’s arguing that they need to believe the world took more than six days to create, etc. Only that when you’re still in control of a dependent minor, you don’t have control to let them die.

If the law said otherwise, it’d be a scary world. In less serious circumstances, there is some balancing between personal freedom of religion and the law (using some drugs in religious ceremonies, etc), but sometimes the law wins out when the government’s interests is deemed greater. Here, when another’s life is on the line, I think some sort of non-fatal protest against the law would have been more appropriate by the mother … and it would have been legal, too.

I have been following this for a while and question a few things. Why is “traditional medicine” the end-all, be-all? Keep in mind that it is this same medicine that deems CPR necessary on 96 year-old’s in the ER or pumping people full of pain medication instead of fixing the root problem. I think it’s about time we start considering alternatives to the way we think about medicine. It’s not always a black and white issue. I have worked in Emergency Medicine for nine years and have found patients often times respond better to much of what is considered “osteopathic” type medicine.

I applaud this family for challenging what is dictated by the physician instead of being bullied. I do believe they are doing what they feel is best for their child. Should the quantity or quality of life be valued more?

Just some food for thought.

Why is “traditional medicine” the end-all, be-all?

Because to be “traditional medicine” you have to prove that you work. As they say, Do you know what they call ‘alternative medicines’ that have been shown to work? They call it medicine.

Also, “traditional medicine” has a code of conduct.  They do not arbitrarily say, ‘Hey, this dude is 95 — let’s just let him die.’   Or, ‘Sorry Mrs. Jefferson we would have revived your husband, but he is 3 months past the always try to revive age.’

The reason we know that the chemo treatment has a 95% success rate is because there is data to support that.  We do not have to trust the word of some person who cannot prove that his or her treatment actually does anything helpful.  If this kid dies — well it is not the fault of alternative medicine….

@DouglasG: Chemo didn’t seem to work for Randy Pausch. The “95% success rate” depends very much on the type of disease that is being targeted with chemo.

@noodleman: I was speaking of the cancer that this kid was diagnosed with, not cancer in general…

“Do unto others as…” At some point or another, most of you who think you have the moral obligation to stomp over an individual family’s rights and support the system will be challenged by similar circumstances. Make sure you think before you speak – and THINK HARD – for there will be no one to defend your individuality when the system stomps over what you consider appropriate for your family.

Also, all those who trump and hail to the concept of data, numbers, facts, and figures, remember: Organizations and human beings (with egos and profits) can skew data any which way to support a point. The same people who feverently trump the success of allopathic medicine are often those who turn a blind eye to its side-effects and long-term harm.

Ummmmm yeah.

I have nothing against “allopathic medicine.” I just expect that anything that has been touted to cure some disease or have some medicinal effect has been shown to work. Repeatedly, many alternative medicines have been shown to do absolutely nothing when tested. Nothing above the placebo effect.

Further, “traditional” medicine has a path to improvement. It constantly being worked on and new treatments are discovered and used. This is a result of it being tested. This works, but another thing may come along and work better.

So, if I ever make a dumb medical decision, I hope that someone out there sues and makes me make the right choice. I guess that is “Do unto others as…”

For all the years they’ve been trying to tout the virtues of herbal medicines, it seems like every time I go to Asia, I’m dodging sick people, sneezing, coughing, hocking big loogies.

I suppose some of those things help if you take huge doses over long periods. But if diagnosed with Hodgkins Lymphoma, I’m damn well going to a doctor.

@Rat: If you’re diagnosed with Hodgkins Lymphoma, you’ve already been to a doctor.

Oh, yeah:

But I’m not going to quit in the middle of my treatment.

@Rat: Did you investigate any other treatment options besides “traditional” medicine (a misnomer, btw) after your diagnosis? You seem to have placed your faith entirely in one world of treatment when there might be other worlds that can bring about a healthful conclusion?

It’s not like “Hodgkins Lymphoma” didn’t exist 2000 years ago. It just didn’t have a name back then. What was once diagnosed as “consumption” is now called “cancer” (by any of a number of different cancers).

“Why is “traditional medicine” the end-all, be-all?”

Because there has been no evidence supporting the claim that natural medicine has cured cancer. Sure, chemo and radiation doesn’t always cure cancer, but when you’re dealing with a cancer that has a 95% rate of recovery with chemo, what do you think a doctor is going to recommend?

in case you were wondering, the govt owns you and your childs body.

individuals make decisions for themselves in a free land and adults choose major decisions for the minor dependents.

Chemo treatment…avg cost, about $200k a patient!! and nearly kills you in the horrifying process.

take the for-profit medical community and so called medicine off a pedestal especially that devilish chemo poison.

there are cheaper less traumatic therapies available…oxidation, alkaline treatment, cancer cell targeting frequencies etc.

Just one correction nood’: Consumption is the old timey name for tuberculosis.

in case you were wondering, the govt owns you and your childs body. individuals make decisions for themselves in a free land and adults choose major decisions for the minor dependents.

That’ so hyperbolic, it  borders on paranoid. Can yuo even cite a single instance where a competent adult was forced to undergo chemo?

Yes, adults make major decisions for their children, but when a decision enters the realm of neglect or abuse, the government has a compelling reason to intervene.

Eating dirt is a lot cheaper than chemo, too. Some people use this stuff called “science” to determine if there’s this thing called “reliable evidence” that a treatment does what the fancy-pants doctors refer to as “any damned good.”

“.oxidation, alkaline treatment, cancer cell targeting frequencies etc ”

Are these treatments done gratis or for a profit?

20 bucks a quart for Mangosteen Juice Cure alls advertised on AM radio all day, every day.

Liars, Charlatons. Snake Oil salesmen.

The schtick is old as the hills.

@mnblrmkr: Thanks. Always thought it meant cancer.

Also, what’s up with the government getting involved when a parent physically abuses a child? It’s their right to beat their kids because that’s how they’re teaching their kids, consistent with their beliefs.

All ur bodies are belongs to me!

i am a mother of a child with a terminal brain tumor and i just want to express how deeply it upsets me to think that there are parents out there that would not do every thing in their power to save their child’s life. my son was originally only given 4-6 months to live, but thanks to chemotherapy, radiation, good doctors and most of all god, my son is still here 2 years later. i will agree that treatment is hard for any child to go through, but it is well worth it when considering the time it has given us with our son.