Secrets of the City

Mike Sauro went to FBI SWAT training. I wonder why he’d do that if he didn’t believe the FBI knew anything about appropriate use of force?

ALso, Johnny Northside loves Mike Sauro and even goes as far as saying “I really can’t believe you are criticizing the police”

To be fair, that Sauro quote is completely true. It was controlled and those were highly trained professional police officers. It was also highly inappropriate and unjustified. But they were completely in control of their actions. So…

Pretty sure that this isn’t the kind of discussion Dolan had in mind when he issued that order. Basically, this is one violent cop/supervisor telling his charges to go out and beat the shit out of those they encounter.

from the e-mail:

Blows to the head are not lethal? Tell that to Natasha Richardson, Duk Koo Kim, et al. While there may not be any documented deaths due to bloes to the head at the hands of MPD, there are plenty of deaths in the twin cities over that same time span from blows to the head. Any civilian that kicked someone the way those officers did would be facing felony attempted murder charges.

And this only confirms my decision to head elsewhere when I see a cop.

The St. Paul PD doesn’t have quite the same reputation, though, mnblrmkr, so feel free to escape anytime across the river.

Blows to the head are not lethal? Tell that to Natasha Richardson, Duk Koo Kim, et al.

And Sonny Bono.  Don’t forget the Bono.

Also, sorry if this is inappropriate, but how does one get their boobs to push together so perfectly, as demonstrated by the gal on the right in the ad above?

This is MNSpeak. Boobs are never inappropriate! I would like an answer to the same question! We have a right to know!

I’m not going to be able to answer that question without you being present and drunk.

Vampires have perfect boobs. Just saying.

Babes can do extraordinary things.

@Krissy: How? Photoshop.

Max! I’ll be the drunk, Eda Cherry can be the demonstrate-ee!

Cynicism like that isn’t needed here, ‘Nood.

It’s a date!

I think somebody has to be wearing stripes…

Finally got one, Max!!!

Bwwwahahahahahah

@Rat: I don’t think I was joking.

The St. Paul PD doesn’t have quite the same reputation, though, mnblrmkr, so feel free to escape anytime across the river.

True. They beat down just the deaf guys.

I do not get it when the cops tell you to submit you might want to. I think the footage shows cops retraining a non-compliant strong male fighting back. Ass kicking is what happens. What do the opponents say should have been done, put the guy in time out?

“Jenkins says he was nervous about the traffic stop as soon as he noticed the squad car behind him. He says he was calling his girlfriend as Walker approached the car.”

Should the cop be required to wait for a person to finish their cell phone conversation?

so, what limits would you put on the cops, swandog? Any?

Can they kick your head in for a sass?
Taze you for asking why you were stopped?
Shoot you for trying to free your hands to communicate?

Who exactly are we paying them to protect? The public or themselves?

@mnblrmkr: Oops. Forgot about that one.

How do we know the cops weren’t blearly eyed and fainty from hypoglycemia, thereby mistaking Jenkins for a pinata, at which point they kept smacking him until candy fell out.

I mean, we do have to give them the benefit of the doubt.

In the few times I’ve been pulled over I’ve generally gone through a routine that includes a lot of “Yes, Sir” or “Yes, Ma’am.” I think on both occasions, it has saved me a ticket.

One gave me a pocket breathlyzer, but I hadn’t been drinking.

I wouldn’t say something like, “just a minute, I’m on the phone.”

“Who exactly are we paying them to protect? The public or themselves?”

The first rule of police work is to finish your shift alive.

rat, one common safety advice I’ve seen from lots of other law enforcement offices (primarily directed at women) is that if you are pulled over, and feel uncomfortable with the situation, to call 911 on your cell phone. (of course, that earned a woman a shot from a taser in Golden Vally.

The first rule of police work is to finish your shift alive.

Then that’s merely force protection, and we’re not paying them to serve and protect the public.

In the few times I’ve been pulled over I’ve generally gone through a routine that includes a lot of “Yes, Sir” or “Yes, Ma’am.” I think on both occasions, it has saved me a ticket.

Congratulations. Sure does make it smoother when you don’t have any communication disabilities, or overly pigmented skin.

“Sure does make it smoother when you don’t have any communication disabilities, or overly pigmented skin.”

Of that, I could not say.

One of my fears is what happens if I get pulled over and I feel unsafe, yes I know its okay to call 911 and signal/slow down and keep driving to a well-lit area but then again, I have a feeling that might get me into some trouble.

These look like very good rules

Yeah, I guess those are fine rules if you’re pulled over in a well-lit area by a clearly marked car.

This is at least the second MN Speak post regarding the Derryl Jenkins incident.

How many MN Speak posts were there about the North St. Paul police officer who was shot and killed by a perpetrator who wrested away the officer’s gun?

Apples and oranges, Skug. Learn the difference or we’ll hit you with our rhythm sticks.

Sad story about Officer Crittenden. From the stories I read he seemed like a good guy.

But, to be fair, there was about the shooting of Officer Crittenden

But, to be fair, there was about the shooting of Officer Crittenden

I retract my swipe at MN Speak. I missed the post.

But the point remains: We often overlook the grave and unmistakable threat to police officers when condemning their lack of judgment in a volatile situation.

I would tend to agree with you.

I am not quite sure what went wrong with the Jenkins incident. I understand that being a cop in a shitty part of town could keep you on edge. What they did was wrong, but I sort of see how it could happen…you know what I mean? Sort of like how some vets have severe anger issues after returning from war—but too a much lesser degree of course. But still, imagine being cynical and on edge your entire work day, never knowing what to expect? Basically not being able to comepletely trust anyone you encounter? Is this a good kid in front of you or a an armed thug that doesn’t give a fuck…
Man, that job has to be pretty intense. It doesn’t surprise me that some of them fly off the edge on occasion..which is why I don’t overdramatize it when it happens. It’s a shame, it’s wrong, but is it really that unpredictable?

So, really then, shouldn’t we not overdramatize when crime happens in shitty neighborhoods where people have to live in shitty conditions with cops who are apt to fly off the handle because they have to work in those neighborhoods…

we don’t, do we? equally as predictable. it’s when the crime comes to the nice neighborhood that we overdramatize it.

we don’t, do we? equally as predictable. it’s when the crime comes to the nice neighborhood that we overdramatize it.

we don’t, do we? equally as predictable. it’s when the crime comes to the nice neighborhood that we overdramatize it.

It doesn’t surprise me that some of them fly off the edge on occasion..which is why I don’t overdramatize it when it happens. It’s a shame, it’s wrong, but is it really that unpredictable?

If they can’t handle the stress without “flying off the edge” maybe they should consider a new line of work.

1. They make the job that much more difficult for those that can handle it.

2. I don’t consider cases like Barbara Schneider, Al Hixon, Elridge Chatman to be acceptable collateral damage because some cop’s a hothead that can’t handle the stresses.

What are you trying to say, Baker?

Nice neighborhood = (mostly) White?

I fear that in our modern culture cops, like soldiers, are wont to treat all “civilians” as The Enemy.

Perhaps cops should understand — I mean, REALLY UNDERSTAND — that the percentage of criminals and hooligans within their ranks is probably no less or no greater than that of the general population.

Yes, there are bad cops, and bad cops give a bad name to the force. Likewise, there are bad civilians who give a bad name to the rest of us. I’ll promise not to judge a cop based on the behavior of some ass-wipe pig if cops won’t judge my behavior based on what some douchebag does downtown.

Okay?

i’ve been quite clear, max. what confuses you?

noodle, that is all I am saying…there are bad apples in all groups. we can’t define all cops based on the action of a few. it really does suck more especially because of their position of authority, though.

oh, max…haha sry for the multi post. damn mobile devices…

I wasn’t actually confused. I was just amused that you posted your comment three times.

it really does suck more especially because of their position of authority, though.

But someone in authority shouldn’t act as if they are above the law … which is the perception many people have of law enforcement because of those few “bad apples.”

oh, max…haha sry for the multi post. damn mobile devices…

Two notes: Jennifer Vogel did a great story at City Pages in 1994 (pre City Pages internet archives, so you’ll have to go to the library if you want to read it) called “Hit Parade” in which she cataloged a series of Minneapolis Police brutality cases that cost the city millions.

Also to be noted is the recent story about the Golden Valley police tazing a woman after a traffic stop. That cost the city of GV 200K.

http://www.startribune.com/local/west/60107767.html

@mnblrmkr – To specifically answer your question. Once an individual does not comply and becomes physically combative it is war. Once an individual pushes, hits or shoves a cop it is a done deal an ass kicking should insure and should be authorized by the courts. Talking bullshit to the cops should not escalate the situation to physical contact or force by the police. A fight is a fight. When you watch the video you know the outcome but when a cop is in the satiation they do not know the outcome and are in grave danger. Their are no referees to mediate a situation like the one on the video. The cop was alone and in harms way. once contact is made by an individual the cop should be able to defend themselves in as violent of manner needed.

Hey, we could save ourselves millions statewide, and billions nationally of dollars, and just abolish the courts. Cops can be not only cop, but judge, jury and executioner.

There are problems with your explanation swandog.

1. I would deserve a court authorized beat down by a cop if I failed to comply with an order I didn’t hear or understand? Really?

2. There are situations where an individual might have self defense reasons to refuse to comply or even resist a cop: What if a cop tells you to stop assisting a seriously injured individual? what if you fail to comply with an unlawful order? What if the cop is attempting to rape the person?

One of the issues is that the cops probably felt they were being restrained, they could have shot the guy. Same with the cop who was shot with his own gun in N. St. Paul. He was trying to control someone without shooting them. In both cases the results were very bad.

I’m not sticking up for the police who beat this guy. They shouldn’t have and there is no excuse for what they did. Beating someone is never okay. But what’s the alternative? Pulling a gun on someone, which may end up much worse. Or could end much better, like in the case of the North St. Paul officer.

And what about someone who isn’t complying due to a physical or mental disability or sudden illness? If you can’t gain control, what do you do? Is it better to beat someone into submission or to shoot them or to let them kill you or someone else?

mnblmkr, is it really that hard to get around in your world?  you make it sound like you’re on the verge of getting your ass kicked by the cops on a daily basis.  i don’t buy it.

Deaf and hard of hearing folks do often have a hard time with the justice system, Cubbie. In fact, from today’s news: “A 34-year-old deaf man has reached a legal settlement with two southern Minnesota counties regarding his contention that he sat in their jails for months and was denied access to a sign-language interpreter, his lawyer said today.”

http://www.startribune.com/local/60708772.html

cubbie, That is a very insensitive comment and very inappropriate. I think he’s being an advocate for those who it is hard to get around, as well as having run ins himself.

This article in the Strib today tells of a guy who was denied an ASL translator for months in jail. He was also beaten on the bus by people who mistook his ASL for gang signs.

Imagine riding your bike down the street and having a police officer yell something at you. You have no idea what they are saying, but you can tell they are yelling. You also know they sometimes beat people who don’t comply. How do you feel?

Does it often happen that off-duty cops will walk into a restaurant and immediately size up the threat situation?

yeah, yeah. that gang sign thing was from 1995. 2 examples from the last 10 years. congratulations. and the 6 months in jail was a case neglect from the public defender not mistreatment by the cops.

every time someone defends the police it’s “yeah but they go around beating up deaf people all day.” meh.

“every time someone defends the police it’s “yeah but they go around beating up deaf people all day.” meh.”

Nobody has said that.

mnblrmkr – I bet you are smarter than to push, hit or shove a cop. How many Deaf people have been beaten by cops in the last 20 years. I understand what you mean and it is valid but we live in an imperfect society. If the cops can not defend and to some extent intimidate the the criminals we will have on big mess in the long run. Your concerns do not out weigh the societal benefit of some degree of law and order and the use of force. Most cops are ass holes and that is fine with me because most of the people they deal with are ass holes. My experience with police in the past is that most people that have gotten their ass kicked got what was coming.

As far as the Southern Mn thing I bet the guy was one wonderful person that was just a perfect member of society, yea right. It was an out of court settlement which proves nothing other than it was cheaper to pay than to litigate. My tax dollars at work.

It was an out of court settlement which proves nothing other than it was cheaper to pay than to litigate.

No. It means it was cheaper to pay than to defend, lose, and then pay a sum of money determined by a (perhaps-by-then-a-not-impartial) third-party. Btw, defendants — in this case, the two Minnesota counties — do not litigate. That’s why they’re defendants.

I love it when normal hearing folks try to tell me how easy or difficult it should be for me to get around in the world.

Since when does whether a a person is a wonderful human being or not determine whether they are afforded their due process and other rights?

Similar thing occurred to Doug Bahl after his arrest, and IIRC, one of his court hearings was postponed when they failed to provide an interpreter for him.

“every time someone defends the police it’s “yeah but they go around beating up deaf people all day.” meh.”

No.

A lot of the defenders of police brutality take swandog’s position: “It’s a stressful job, and anyone getting beating by the police deserves it.” 

I’m using my own circumstances (and also pointed out others’)  to argue that is not true, and that attitudes/actions like those Sauro expresses in his email should not be tolerated on a police force.

Maybe the solution to these violent cop problems would be the solution we use for all violent criminals: Incarcerate them. Have a bad cop become someone’s “wife” in PMITA prison.

Oh, mnblrmkr, it can’t be that hard being hearing impaired and also there’s no more racism and I’ve totally been over reacting to shit my entire life.

Both are obviously true because people who have no direct experience with either said so.

Do a google search on police brutality and deafness and you will see link after link of cases of deaf and HOH people being beaten and even killed by police officers.

In a related note drinking fans with a football problem.

psst, Nood, rape jokes are uncool.

mnblrmkr – You are miss reading my point. My point is that if you strike hit push a cop you should get your ass kicked. That is a real simple straight forward statement and my position. I am not trying to tell you how easy your life is or hard it is. However the exception to every rule is not justification for mitigating a given rule. We can what if everything to death and in the end it is not that simple or prudent. I am not arguing against due process and you are correct in your statement about due process I agree with you. But take it to the judge and have the balls to stand up for what you believe in vs. capitulating every time someone cries wolf because you think it is cheaper. If they are wrong then pay if not move on.

@noodleman – My point is go to court and have your day. Stop paying shit heads off every time they say that they were treated poorly. If the court found due process was not followed then they you owe the guy.

Trust me, it’s not easy being a Lions’ fan, let alone a lions’ fan with a drinking problem.

In your own home. tased for “refusing to obey.”

It’s even harder to admit you are a Lion’s fan, I imagine.

I see your point mnblrmkr, what do you think the police should have done differently. I don’t think that it is police brutality but is unfair and unfortunate. I don’t have an answer on this one you make a good point but what is the solution.

@swandog: Pre-trial settlements are reached because the defendant is aware that the odds of acquittal are not in their favor. If found guilty, the jury or the judge will determine the settlement. The settlement might be many times more than what the prosecuting party would accept before a trial begins, especially when it comes to punitive damages.

Off the top of my head, I can think of at least one case where the defendant would’ve saved money by agreeing to a settlement before trial: AH Robbins.

@jane: I was not joking. I thought the threat of incarceration was supposed to deter people, including cops, from committing crimes.