Secrets of the City

Should be open-season on homophobes.

I subscribe to the theory that people with deep-seated fears of anything (especially anything of a sexual nature) are only repressing latent tendencies within themselves. For adults, at least.

For kids, it’s just another manifestation of “Lord of the Flies” group-think.

Then there’s crap like this on Flickr about the Pride Festival. The person who posted it should be exposed in a few scenes of Bruno.

While Alexis did not mention the ethnicity of the Gopher State Airport taxi driver, the kids shown in the YouTube are from our Somali community, which has had its share of bad press of late.

The cab thing happens more often than not. But otherwise – normal Pride this year. *yawn*

sad

“…our Somali community, which has had its share of bad press of late.”

Gee, I wonder why?

Because I’m not representing them?

How would you spin this encounter, Bob?

misguided youths trying to adapt to a new culture. we should do more to reach out to them.

dude handled himself pretty well. must be difficult to smile and keep walking in that situation.

(my response to The Rat, in total satire)

“See a group of spirited youth engage in a lively debate with a fellow citizen. What could be more American?

Note how excellent their communication skills are, including the use of slang and nonverbal communications!

Yes, these youngsters will go far! Some as far as the civil war in Mogadishu….”

If I had to guess, that Flickr pic lives in 410 Groveland, Unit 913. I might be off by one or 2 floors or one or 2 condo numbers.

I know a bunch of people who live in 400 and 410 Groveland, and I think it’s dangerous for a guy like that who’s so full of hate from being so deep in the closet to be living in a tower that’s just chock-full of beatiful gay men.

There are so many elements of this that annoy me. While we do our half-assed best to try to be welcoming to immigrants and refugees, you would think that they would at least respect our customs and festivals. At least our culture is attempting some form of engagement with them and doesn’t generally shut them off in suburban ghettos like the Dutch and French do. I don’t foresee some Pim Fortyun or Van Gogh style slayings here, but there was that male dancer who was murdered in Cedar Riverside last summer, so who knows.

What the fuck is up with the police officers just walking by and smiling?

I would hope that the police would intercede in any situation where a huge group of people are following a person and verbally assaulting them.

They’re rent-a-cops.

Maybe private security, But they’re not police

They are not connected to the Pride events. They are on their way to work at a nearby building.

The lowest form of humanity.
Rent-a-chair warmer.

Still how is this tolerated. If I had been there I’m not sure what I would have done. Probably attacked the biggest one and stomped on his throat.

“The lowest form of humanity. Rent-a-chair warmer”

How about a little tolerance, Dougie? Honest work is honest work.

Doug, they are doing their jobs.

I agree lunch!, this seems really audacious to me. I don’t expect the young Somali kids to realize what gift they have been given, but this is really unacceptable.
Maybe they’d like to experience life in their home country where there are no gay festivals, or other forms of expression. Or food, or running water.

That guy handled himself really well I agree, I may have lost control.

I would have called the cops and got the passersby involved. No one should have to endure this kind of public harassment/humiliation. The cops could bust them for any number of petty crimes.

They may be little more than children, but they should at least learn some manners.

I don’t think this has anything to do with these boys being Somali. I could see a group of while suburban boys doing the exact same thing.

Kids call things “Gay” all the time. “that’s gay” is heard in every Junior High in America as an insult. Additionally, these boys are at a time in their life where they are learning about thier sexuality and know that “Gay is bad” according to their culture AND to mainstream American culture. While most Americans accept gays, they do not wish their children to be “one of them.” Finally, they are young teenagers. It is all about trying to look cool and fit in, regardless of culture. One boy starts it, maybe he was the coolest of the bunch, and the rest jump in. They are afraid to go against the group.

What they did is wrong. It just shows that we really do need tolerance and pro-gay curriculums in our schools. But to blame it on their culture is misguided and unfair.

That flikr pic guy has som much more going for him than homophobia: xenophobia, and racism for starters.

Looks like he hates anyone that’s not white, heterosexual, republican, and non-disabled. Had to quit at that point.

@Lunch. The guy was certainly harassed, but he didn’t seem humiliated. You only become humiliated if you let yourself become humiliated.

So when does the shift happen?

There are numerous demographic groups which harbor and nurture anti-gay attitudes and even activities. To say that their culture does not even bear some element of responsibility is a half truth. They are told gay is bad by their elders, something not too many mainstream white middle class children are told these days.

@Rat I have a low embarrassment threshold, and was probably projecting.

“They may be little more than children, but they should at least learn some manners.”

where they were born, children carried submachine guns and fought in wars. manners are a low threshold in terms of what they need to learn about living here.

Yeah, I’d say that guy handled himself remarkably well.

They are told gay is bad by their elders, something not too many mainstream white middle class children are told these days.

How do you know? Having been friends with and dated many Somalis, I know that a large portion are not homophobic at all and would never teach their children homophobic ideas.  And I know lots of white middle class people who are teaching their kids that are bad, like a large number of republicans and fundamentalist christians.

where they were born, children carried submachine guns and fought in wars.

I bet almost all those kids were born in the US.

While we do our half-assed best to try to be welcoming to immigrants and refugees, you would think that they would at least respect our customs and festivals.

But immigrant vs. native-born violence is as American as apple pie:

["Gangs of New York" synopsis from imdb.com:] “It’s 1863 and lower Manhattan is run by gangs, the most powerful of which is the Natives, headed by Bill “The Butcher” Cutting. He believes that America should belong to native-born Americans and opposes the waves of immigrants, mostly Irish, entering the city.”

Oh, and this is online at Salon.com. Homophobia is not just a Somali thang by any stretch of the imagination., so let’s not make this a Christian vs. Muslim debate because we all know how much Jerry Falwell, et al. just love teh Gayz.

I am extrapolating from the Pew surveys which have continually shown a much more pro gay rights attitude among American youth across most segments. Also, fundamentalist Christians are in no way mainstream Americans. Their numbers are too small: they are a small slice of that 26%-28% of Americans that self identify as evangelical. But they are loud and their views are very jarring, so they seem disproportionately numerous.

But immigrant vs. native-born violence is as American as apple pie.

Poor people fighting poor people for the scraps left by the wealthy, how boring.

If not stopped I would probably kill their families also. I wouldn’t mind strangling some hate breeders.

Also, fundamentalist Christians are in no way mainstream Americans. Their numbers are too small: they are a small slice of that 26%-28% of Americans that self identify as evangelical. But they are loud and their views are very jarring, so they seem disproportionately numerous.

You belittle their impact when, in fact, the Fundamentalists empowered the “Silent Majority” into voting Reagan and Bush43 into office. Twice. (Bush41 was too moderate IMHO to be considered a right-wing candidate.)

Evangelical does not mean fundamental.

And take a look at all the Christian demonimations. how many openly accept gay people as full members of their religion (gay marriage)? A couple rogue denominations, the UCC, the Unitarians and the Episcopalians. Not many.

Lunch, I know for a fact that your religion does not accept a gay person in a relationship as anything but sin. Does that mean you are teaching your kids to be homophobic?

Before you say more snide comments about “rent-a-cops,” dougie_D, don’t forget this guy was a “rent-a-cop,” too.

And if the average middle class American was so okay with homosexuality, we’d have gay marriage already. It isn’t the Somalis keeping us from that.

Someone is going to have to hold Dougie back. He’s ready!

Didn’t take long for wrath to settle upon the Christians.

Good thing they’re building a baseball park in Minneapols instead of a Colosseum.

I love being reminded that I am a second class citizen without rights or protection. I am all for arming the gays and shooting first and asking questions later on homophobic assholes.

If 3 or 4 of these kids had been gunned down would it have made any difference? Not really. Saved us from hiring more prison guards.

I really don’t have respect for people. With me you have to earn respect I do not give it out for free.

I’d be fine with a large majority of people disappearing tomorrow. When is that fucking Rapture going to happen!

I think the guy who comported himself with good humor in the face of withering harassment should be admired for his strength to not resort to violence.

If only he had Tekken-like skills, so he could do a massive sweep kick and make more room for himself.

Didn’t take long for wrath to settle upon the Christians.

No, not Christians. Fundamentalists.

Of any stripe.

I’m a Christian, rat. But I’m not a Fundamentalist.

If 3 or 4 of these kids had been gunned down would it have made any difference? Not really. Saved us from hiring more prison guards.

So, you equate prejudicial harassment with violent crime? Misdemeanor = felony? The pendulum swings both ways when it comes to extremism, I guess.

These kids are already lost. I would be fine putting them down. It will save out society much in the long run.

Noodleman, until you have been the target of harrassment you will not understand. Try living your life being told every day that you are a worthless sinner and should be destroyed. That is basically the message gays have gotten this country from the day they are born. That they are mentally ill. A scourage to society.

It’s hard to remain compassionate for assholes of any stripe.

If you can’t muster compassion, how about just civility, Dougie?

I don’t blame Dougie one bit for his out look. In my experience it is Muslims and Christian fundamentalists that seem to think that all the rest of us need to comply with their world view. I do not see any difference between the two groups. They both to the core are anti-intellectual, anti-gay and pro making the U.S. some kind of theocracy. By the way it is the Christians through their church outreach programs bringing in the Somalis and the rest of us are forced to foot the bill. They sponsor them right up to the welfare door. We give lip service to the gay community when is suits them but when they are in need of support most people run the other way, the video shows that. I bet if a bunch of white trash youth were harassing the person in the video the outcry would be fierce but in this case excuses are made for their behavior.

Rat, he is being civil. He’s not actually doing these things.

@Dougie_D: Does being pushed off a station platform in front of an arriving train, simply for being a “Yankee,” count as harassment? If so, then I’ve been there.

Also:

Try living your life being told every day that you are a worthless sinner and should be destroyed.

If I were you, I wouldn’t pay any attention to the rantings of imbeciles and hypocrites. God loves you, regardless of what they say. Check out the Sermon on the Mount and which two commandments Jesus said were the most important. Let your detractors know they’re the ones committing a sin — not you.

Noodleman, I think Rat’s point was that no matter what, whenever we start talking about Islam, the conversation always moves to Christianity. Sort of like when you argue with conservatives how shitty Bush was as president, they bring up some of Clinton’s mishaps to make it seem not as bad.

Sometimes I wonder if Somalians in this community are burning bridges faster than they can build them. Some of the intolerance shown by muslims is making its way into the mainstream…

Rat when was the last time someone shouted out the window of their car at you calling you a fag and you had to wonder if maybe they are going to circle back around and attack you.

That is what many gay people deal with on a constant basis and their church is telling them basically its ok because its against the bible to be gay.

I’ll be civil when the civil rights are equal until then I will not be civil.

Noodleman didn’t you invite that behavior. I would never go to the south.

Noodleman didn’t you invite that behavior. I would never go to the south.

I was living overseas at the time.

No, I did not “invite” that behavior any more than I would “invite” being pummeled for walking around being white.

One quickly learns, after something like that, to answer “Canadian” when someone asks if you’re a “Yankee.”

The vast majority of people polled would blame that guy for walking around looking like he was gay.

Noodleman, I think Rat’s point was that no matter what, whenever we start talking about Islam, the conversation always moves to Christianity.

I suppose that’s because some of the most fervent anti-Muslims are … Christian Fundamentalists?

They share Abraham. Why not share the same fears and hypocrisies, too? I just like to point out that it is as wrong to paint Muslims with a broad brush as it to do the same with Christians. Each have their zealots and fanatics.

I’m a Christian too. And since I brought up the Christian angle, I’ll defend what I’m saying. I’m saying you can’t say these kids are all homophobic BECAUSE they are Somali. There are many Somali’s who are very tolerant and accepting of homosexuality. My point also was that there are many Christians who are also homophobic, so it was as likely these boys could have been white suburban boys. Then I went on to point out that Lunch, who I know attends a certain denomination of church that does not like gays, doesn’t teach his kids homophobia so it is unfair to assume the parents of these Somali boys are teaching homophobia.

dude, what are you talking about. If I would have seen that occurring, you can bet I would have stepped in between the gay man and the group of Somalians.

here is a link via MN Independent–I didn’t see this posted yet.

Interesting comments at the link I posted.

“I’m saying you can’t say these kids are all homophobic BECAUSE they are Somali.”

Yes I can, and with a fair deal of confidence.

It’s sort of like you can say that some white suburban kids may hate gays because they are christian, and taught to feel this way by other Christians, in the name of Christianity.

Gay people in Somalia are either forced to remain in the closet, dress as women, or are killed by groups of armed thugs. Or if you are lucky, by your own family in the name of ‘honor’.

Do you honestly think that the religious teachings these kids sit through (even in Minneapolis)teach tolerance of gays? Where else do they get it? Books by Jerry Falwell? It certainly isn’t a mainstream element that shows public hatred for gays. They learned it from somewhere, and I’m guessing it’s from the mosque, but I’m open to other suggestions.

Iman is from Somolia, and she married David Bowie!

Try to explain that, baker.

(g)

Gay people in Somalia are either forced to remain in the closet, dress as women, or are killed by groups of armed thugs. Or if you are lucky, by your own family in the name of ‘honor’.

Being in the closet, or dressing like a woman, happens to queers here in the US, too. Matthew Shepard was also killed by a group of thugs. I don’t think Somalis have any claim to exclusivity when it comes to abhorrent behavior towards gays.

Forgot to include this link with my previous post:

Somali culture and homosexuality

Looks rather similar to what LGBTs experience in parts of the US. Or don’t you think Larry Craig, et al., were ever in the closet; fearful of the reaction that would ensue would they ever publically proclaim their homosexuality?

“Looks rather similar to what LGBTs experience in parts of the US.”

No, it doesn’t.

Speaking from personal experience Rat?

One quickly learns, after something like that, to answer “Canadian” when someone asks if you’re a “Yankee.”

I’m totally not a yankee I’m a Twins fan!  You Betcha!

No, based on what he posted

“Gay and Lesbian Somalians who are in Somalia have no official recognition and live under a constant cloud of fear, as homosexuality is often punished with lashing, being ostracised from families and communities and even death! This is not an exaggeration as many of our brothers and sisters have been made to suffer inhumane reprimands or killed.

“Therefore, being Somali and gay can be difficult. Living secret lives and not sharing your ideas and feelings with those you have close contact with in life is not an easy thing. Many flee their homes to escape possible torture or “honour killings”.

for crap’s sakes…
Would Larry Craig have been executed by his family?
We have laws here protecting homosexuals, we have large, complex groups formed specifically for the protection of them.

I can’t even believe you are comparing how people in the US and people in Somalia view gays.

“I don’t think Somalis have any claim to exclusivity when it comes to abhorrent behavior towards gays.”

Nor did I claim such.

At the risk of sounding jingoistic, I’ll say I think the United States has more enlightened approach and is more accepting of gay and lesbian…and the transgender…and the bisexual community(s) than Somalia.

And I’ll take the heat for it.

Would Larry Craig have been executed by his family?

Who knows. He was, nonetheless, closeted for fear of persecution; becoming a pariah in a political party not known for its tolerance towards LGBTs.

We have laws here protecting homosexuals, we have large, complex groups formed specifically for the protection of them.

So why the need, then, for “gay marriage” laws in states that still do not recognize same-gender unions? If homosexuals are as protected as class as, say, blacks, why do LGBTs remain closeted from family, friends, neighbors, co-workers, etc.?

I can’t even believe you are comparing how people in the US and people in Somalia view gays.

I based my comparison on what you had written. It looked, to me, to have enough similarity to be comparable in many regards.

I’ll say I think the United States has more enlightened approach and is more accepting of gay and lesbian…and the transgender…and the bisexual community(s) than Somalia.

And Europe is even more enlightened than is the US.

So what? You’re saying, basically, that a person can be somewhat prejudiced but still be “enlightened?” That’s like saying George Wallace was “more enlightened” because he never lynched anyone personally.

“You’re saying, basically, that a person can be somewhat prejudiced but still be “enlightened?”

Why are you deliberately misrepresenting what I said?

@rat: Why are you deliberately misrepresenting what I said?

I am not misrepresenting what you wrote. Because, while many Americans will say they have no problem working with, or living next to, or sharing a meal with someone who is LGBT, you would hear a completely different response to the question: “Would you tolerate a LGBT teaching your child in school?”

Whatever response they give still puts them well short of public flogging.

Who knows. He was, nonetheless, closeted for fear of persecution; becoming a pariah in a political party not known for its tolerance towards LGBTs.

Good grief.

So why the need, then, for “gay marriage” laws in states that still do not recognize same-gender unions? If homosexuals are as protected as class as, say, blacks, why do LGBTs remain closeted from family, friends, neighbors, co-workers, etc.?

There is a ways to go, to be sure. But at least gays in the US  are recognized as PEOPLE by the majority of it’s citizens, and aren’t imprisoned or executed under some fucked-up ancient religious law.

This wasn’t even my point–not sure how we even got there. Do you agree with KC that the religion of these boys had nothing to do with how they were acting towards this gay man? Let’s hear it. Where did these kids learn to be gay haters? I already ventured my guess.

Public flogging … or private thuggery. What’s the difference? Both are designed to inflict pain … or death.

Three suspects in the beating death of gay University of Wyoming student Matthew Shepard

And …

And I know, personally, of at least one Minneapolis gay resident who was beaten by the MPD just for being gay

“Public flogging … or private thuggery. What’s the difference?”

One is state sponsored. And you’re too blind — by what I don’t know — to understand that distinction, we have nothing to talk about.

Do you agree with KC that the religion of these boys had nothing to do with how they were acting towards this gay man? Let’s hear it. Where did these kids learn to be gay haters? I already ventured my guess.

Values are values, whether taught from a religious perspective or otherwise. An atheist can be just as prejudiced as a Fundamentalist toward homosexuality. Perhaps more susceptible?

So, yes, I would have to agree with kc! that religion is not the only arbiter of LGBT prejudice and violence. If the Qur’an is opposed to homosexuality, then so is the Bible. And, yet, there are Christians who are tolerant — if not welcoming — of LGBTs into their congregations just as there are Muslims (and Jews) who also take a more accepting view of homosexuality.

Don’t blame the religion; blame the dogma that masquerades as religion.

Re: Public flogging vs. private thuggery.

One is state sponsored. And you’re too blind — by what I don’t know — to understand that distinction, we have nothing to talk about.

Fuck you, Rat.

I blame the religion, the dogma that comes with it and the massive number of people who are too fucking stupid to set it aside and act like members of a society, respect eachother, and live together.

It’s like a ‘fuck religion burrito.’ A Trifecta, if you will.

*sigh* It seems silly and narrow to me that the focus is on whether the kids in the vid are Somali or not.

It was a hateful, intolerant act by children who have learned that taunting someone because he is different is an acceptable way to behave.

But, to keep the focus on the kids being from Somalia does everyone a disservice, I think. Intolerance and hate are, unfortunately, universal.

I don’t agree with Dougie_D’s veiws, but I certainly understand them.

*sigh* It seems silly and narrow to me that the focus is on whether the kids in the vid are Somali or not.

But, to keep the focus on the kids being from Somalia does everyone a disservice, I think. Intolerance and hate are, unfortunately, universal.

THIS

I’m sure many gay white men mentor around Cedar Riverside educating and sharing with Somali youth values of love, respect, and tolerance in American society.

Or does hate beget hate?

I am not sure how not mentoring = hating.

By this equation, everybody I don’t mentor, I hate, which would be a lot of people, as I mentor nobody.

I hate Star Tribune commenters. I hope they start having a Pride Day so I can follow them around and hurl invectives at them.

Better yet, I will mentor one. Show them they have better options than hanging around some website, posting vitriol and refreshing every ten minutes so they can click “no” on any post that’s slightly different from what Rush told them to think this morning. We can shoot hoops, go to the library. I could be the difference in their lives.

lol, there was more between the lines there. Basically in seeing the various responses from the LGBT community, comprising mostly of privileged white males, I have to wonder, and this my friend phrased properly “why elite minorities tend to blame their oppression on non-elite minorities.”

Take the battle to the State Capitol?

What do you mean by “privileged” and “elite”? There are certainly no legal privileges to being gay. They are a hated minority deprived of certain legal rights the rest of us enjoy, and in many cases don’t even have the same legal protections of other minorities. Being gay doesn’t entitle you to a cash payout at birth, a butler, or anything else.

Those children are NOT in Somalia and likely are AMERICANS. What happens in Somalia, a land of no laws and gang rule, is not what happens here. And I’ll state again, I know plenty of Somalis who are NOT homophobic and do not teach their children hate. It is RACIST to state that all Somalis hate gays and teach their children to hate gays.

Second, all Muslims, just like Christians, don’t hate gays. Here is a Muslim GLBT group: http://www.al-fatiha.org/ I know a Muslim Lesbian. Keith Ellison is Muslim and stands for gay marriage and equality.

These were kids, that’s it. Stop trying to blame it on their culture.

I get what Eric James is saying.

It’s the expectation that one minority will group to step up on behalf of another but that group not recipricating when the other group faces discrimination.

And yeah, maybe this is cultural, maybe it’s not. It really does no good to speculate if this is a cultural problem when clearly the problem is that individuals involved were assholes. I’m sure there were plenty of people of all races who were near Pride and do not approve of gays but fact of the matter is that the overwhelming majority of these people did not harass anyone over it. I don’t think any culture approves of assholish behavior like that and therefore I am not going to attribute this to anything other than the culture of assholishness which transcends race.

I think it’s pretty silly to try to attribute/speculate over the causes of their behavior beyond this. That’s like blaming cultural stereotypes on me not having a job. The fact of the matter is that none of you know anything about them except that they are Somalian and they were being assholes. Are you even sure they’re not Ethiopian?

Quick, which of my behaviors can you attribute to me being black, an American, or raised Christian.

Exactly.

@Bix: I can tell you’re an American because you say “asshole.” A Brit would say that they were “nasty pieces of work.”

I prefer asshole.

I didn’t watch the vid because I can just imagine what it shows, my question is, why didn’t others around this gentleman step in and at least walk with him to show support and solidarity?

alie-
I think video taping them is ultimately made them scattter. They realized they were being taped and got nasty to the videographer then ran away.

Um, because there was a group of harassing teens and people would rather not be the subject of that group of teens who were apt to do who knows what.

@Cat do Brits also say “quite the amalgum of unpleasantness” instead of “hot mess”?

Brits talk about something “going pear shaped.”

Bix, if they are gay Brits they say “hot blasted mess.”

@Bix: Nicely done.

Although, one thing is missing. Add bloody as in: “Quite the amalgum of bloody unpleasantness.”

Bix, I have to disagree. The group of teens felt safe in targeting him because he was alone, maybe it wouldn’t have even escalated to the point at which it was taped.

Wait, what are you disagreeing with? It’s a group of teens, which is why no one stepped up. They don’t want to take them on and deal with that.

@bixby OMG I almost cried today with Billy and Mac.

alie, he wasn’t really alone. It was the middle of the day and there were tons of people around.

Yes, but from the little I watched, people weren’t really stepping up to just walk with him. I’m not saying anyone needed to even confront or mouth off to this mob, merely escort him to where he’s going.

Bix, I guess I just disagree with the excuse that people were afraid of getting involved. What’s the point of people bellyaching and tsk tsking homophobia on the internet if they’re not willing to do anything tangible about it? And I don’t know, may there were people there willing to help, but it dispersed so quickly. I just think in situations like that, words are cheap.

Bix isn’t English because she didn’t write “arsehole.” But “Bixby” sounds like an English butler’s name. And she went to school in New England. So, maybe she’s half-English?

What’s the point of people bellyaching and tsk tsking homophobia on the internet if they’re not willing to do anything tangible about it?

For the same reason Rush Limbaugh pontificates from the confines of a radio studio? Blustering is easy when there’s plenty of room between your words and “them.”

I’ve been thinking today how I would’ve reacted had I happened this situation. Escorting him was not an option that came to mind but that sounds like a very good one.

Nood, I understand commiserating is very cathartic, but too many times I hear people titter nervously when someone crack an inappropriate joke and then vociferously condemn it later and I just think this is why things take so long to change.

The shock and surprise of hearing something inappropriate can cause tittering; doesn’t always indicate an acceptance of what was said. But, yes, aliecat, I agree too many people move with the mass — whichever way society is shifting — less out of any personal belief or high regard than it is because of peer pressure. (My! That sentence sounds awkward.)

hence the current occupant.

Cubbie how in the fuck do you think this thread is about Obama at all. Fucking partisan hack.

oh my.

News Flash:
There is no “gay” gene. It’s a behavior and no one has to accept it, just like other behaviors people might find offensive; nose-picking, masturbation, sacrificing goats…whatever.

No one has to tolerate or accept homosexuality. Period. Sorry to rain on your Pride Parade. Look and behave however you want, but seriously, the people that choose to stand out can and will be picked on. It’s called NATURE.

Let’s say, for one minute, that being gay is a “behavior” and that “no one has to accept it.” Then it follows that being Christian or Muslim or Jewish is a “behavior” and “no one has to accept it.” And being a veteran is “a behavior” and “no one has to accept it.” Therfore, we can all start discriminating on both religion and veteran’s status, both of which are currently illegal.

And of course, I do not believe that being gay is just a behavior.

And I know I should ignore the anonomyous trolls, but sometimes I can’t help myself.

Like religion? You’re kidding right? Come back to reality.

Freedom of religion is a right. Sexuality, (of any form) isn’t a right.

Look, I’m not saying we shouldn’t have respect for other humans. I’m all for live and let live and personally don’t care who anyone kneels to, for sex OR prayers.

Cut the elitist BS and accept that some behaviors can and will be singled out and picked on. I speak the ugly truth. You are dreaming…a lovely little dream, but a dream nonetheless.

Sexuality, (of any form) isn’t a right.

Sure it is.

Oh, Sam.

You could at least explain your asinine point.

“accept that some behaviors can and will be singled out and picked on. I speak the ugly truth.”

I agree.

What didn’t I explain?

Freedom of speech ensures that people can say what they want about the homosexual lifestyle. Your sexuality is not a right. That’s all I’m saying.

How is sexuality a right? Let me guess, you think housing and health care are rights too?

Responding not, to Sam I am,
MNSpeak this is, not MNSpam.
Things I must do, see you later,
Twitter is broke, and you’re a hater.

As it happens, I do think housing and health care are a human right. I am curious as to why you think they aren’t.

I think they are privileges for those who work. There are exceptions (those who are disabled or unable to work) but for the most part, housing and medicine should be available to those who contribute to the tribe.

But that’s rather beside the point, rather. I find it more interesting that you felt the need to come into this thread to defend the rights of a group of boys who were walking behind a stranger, shouting hateful comments at him. Is it really your position that the bullies of the world need defense?

There are exceptions (those who are disabled or unable to work) but for the most part, housing and medicine should be available to those who contribute to the tribe.

So none for babies.

I guess babies are unabled to work. I should say, none for 10-year-olds. They have a long history of employment that we only got rid of a short while ago, and, in many countries, they make up a significant portion of the workplace.

Babies. Hmph. If they weren’t cute they’d be banned altogether.

Especially babies!

those who contribute to the tribe.

Tribe? Maz, it that you?

Maz spelled backward is Zam…zam…SAM!

Let’s not presume who our commentors are. I am sure there is more than one person on the Web who is happy to let people suffer if they don’t suit his definition of contributing and defends bullies when they misbehave toward total strangers.

Max, who the hell are the bullies? CHILDREN who harrass a guy who is openly amused by it, OR the people on this thread?

“Should be open-season on homophobes.”

“If 3 or 4 of these kids had been gunned down would it have made any difference? Not really. Saved us from hiring more prison guards.”

“I am all for arming the gays and shooting first and asking questions later on homophobic assholes.”

“These kids are already lost. I would be fine putting them down. It will save out society much in the long run.”

The dangerous thoughts aren’t what’s going on in the minds of kids…hopefully they’ll grow up and wise up. How about the adults writing the above garbage?

The children, That should be self-evident. I may not approve of some of the things said in this thread, and don’t have much of a taste for violent rhetoric, but there is a light-year of difference between commenting in a thread and phsyically following somebody and screaming hateful comments at them.

I am sure you can see this.

Sure. This form of bigotry is civilized.

I guess you can’t see it. I presume you also think complaining about your coworkers to your wife is an even worse thing than going to work and screaming at the woman in the cubicle next to you.

Let’s not presume who our commentors are.

I wasn’t serious. But to be serious for a moment, I will speak directly to sam on his comments.

Sam, I can see you don’t understand this whole “gay” thing. I know you think you do, but you don’t. That’s okay. Like a lot of other aynon commentors on this site, you look to mix things up with a flame comment, then when you get pushed back, you go crying to the nearest grownup (in this case, max).

We like many points of view here — we really do. We like to be challenged. But we also expect commentors to back up what they say. I have been challenged on this site before. As one person noted, this can be a snarky place.

It is, however, a friendly place. Play by the rules and be nice, and max will (usually) let you say what’s on your mind. That’s the way we roll here. If your skin is tough enough, and you have something worthwhile to say, then stay.

If not, I recommend the comment section of the Star Tribune.

As long as people are being civil, I will always let them say what’s on their mind.

just curious sam, why do you say being gay/lesbian, etc is not something genetic when there are tests that prove it is? Are they just fakes?

ok justpbob, it’s not a “friendly place” if you read my comment where I quote from this thread.

You DON’T like to be challenged. You are dismissive, insulting, and condescending when someone doesn’t agree with you.

I don’t understand the ‘gay’ thing, and like most Americans, don’t want to.

Let’s go way back to my original comment, which was that no one has to accept homosexuality. Period.

There are exceptions (those who are disabled or unable to work) but for the most part, housing and medicine should be available to those who contribute to the tribe.

Of course, there are thousands of people who would be able to “contribute to the tribe” if they just had steady healthcare. But that’s beside the point, I guess.

And sure, people have a first amendment right to being racist/homophobic/anti-semetic/whatever assholes and expressing theri asshole rhetoric, but my issue is that you believe that being gay is a “behavior” and shouldn’t be protected but being Christian isn’t a behavior, but something else that should be protected.

And actually, people DO have to accept homosexuality. In Minnesota, sexuality is a protected class and it is illegal to discriminate against them.

I don’t understand the ‘gay’ thing, and like most Americans, don’t want to.

Actually, from what I have read, most Americans are perfectly fine with homosexuality. I’m curious as to why you think most Americans are intolerant. My experience is that most Americans have a pretty live and let live attitude about their neighbors.

@Sam: Actually, as a signatory of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the US does accept “adequate housing” as being a basic human right. See Article 25.

Sam I am sure you are an intelligent lady but your arguments lack any type of proof to back them up and it makes it hard for me to understand your position.

ok justpbob, it’s not a “friendly place” if you read my comment where I quote from this thread.

That was friendly. You should see us when we’re angry. You wouldn’t like us when we’re angry.

You DON’T like to be challenged. You are dismissive, insulting, and condescending when someone doesn’t agree with you.

Say, you have been paying attention, havent you? (g) First smart thing you have said today, Nancy Boy.

Let’s go way back to my original comment, which was that no one has to accept homosexuality. Period.

These times, they are a changing. More equality is a good thing, and takes nothing away from you or me. It’s coming, no matter what you think and say. Might as well get used to the idea.

This is probably neither here nor there but I’m confused by the apparent dichotomy some religions have against sin.

On the one hand, some religious people recoil with hatred against something like homosexuality and make the claim that the Bible has stead and fast “laws” against it. On the other hand, these same people willingly send troops into battle to kill other people — when there is an explicit prohibition against killing listed among the 10 Commandments.

I like the way this guy Jesus says it, noodle:

Then said Jesus unto him, “Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.” –Matthew 26:52

Jesus, huh? Must be some Latino dude.

Sam I am sure you are an intelligent lady but…

Um, I know you were being nice, but I’m not so sure Sam actually is intelligent. Sam’s easy dismissal of science, as evidenced by her (?) attitude regarding the innate nature of homosexuailty, is not the mark of intelligence. Rather it’s the trappings of the anti-intellectualism that also gives rise to the notion that the earth is 6000 years old. It’s unfortunate, is what it is.

And I suppose this post is too personal to leave up, and for that, I apologize in advance.

There’s a pretty strong argument against mixing fabrics in the Bible as well. Don’t see anybody protesting outside Marshalls because the mix woolens and linens, though.

Actually, I have a bigger issue with the assumption Sam is female. Let us not speculate on the gender of our posters, although I would ask that, if we consider our fellow posters to be relatively unintellegent, we keep that to ourselves as well.

He who is without sin is about to throw the first stone through the Marshalls’ window, max.

Now you’ve done it…

Yeah, the question mark is there because I didn’t see where the assumption of Sam’s gender came from and I thought I might have missed it. And the apology is for the comment as a whole. I assumed you’d pull it, but I have a real problem with the anti-intellectual Right’s dismissal of science and I couldn’t let that go…

I don’t mind if you address anti-intellectualism as a trend, or even mention that Sam’s thinking seems consistent with that. But to be fair to our commentors, who we don’t know personally, we should refrain from speculating about their intellegence.

I can’t stop poking the beehive.

damn these sticks

but where’s the bee? seems strangely quiet, hopefully contemplating our points..

Heh!

Drive-by trolling?

I actually had to work, hence the lapse in my response.

What difference does my sex make? Surely you called a nancy boy to insult me. Sadly humorous.

The point is this I guess, you want people to respect and tolerate your sexuality and morals (of your minority) yet you hate, threaten, and bash OTHER minorities who have a different outlook than you. You preach tolerance, but spew hatred from your mouths. You are the worst kind of hypocrites. You like free speech so long as the person is saying something you like…well guess what!??! Free speech is there to protect the people that say crazy and dangerous things! You all might be the majority on this pathetic thread, but you are living in an alternate universe.

If sexuality is not a right, that sure puts heterosexual marriage and all of its benefits in an interesting light.

“You like free speech so long as the person is saying something you like…well guess what!??! Free speech is there to protect the people that say crazy and dangerous things! You all might be the majority on this pathetic thread, but you are living in an alternate universe.”

From what I can see, no one is stopping you from airing your opinions on this thread, so I’m not sure what your point is? Are you just angry that no one agrees with you and does so in a snarky manner? If so, maybe you should find another website.

The point is this I guess, you want people to respect and tolerate your sexuality and morals (of your minority) yet you hate, threaten, and bash OTHER minorities who have a different outlook than you.

What other minorities are there? Or are you talking about the fun we make of ‘Sconnies and their love cattle?

You preach tolerance, but spew hatred from your mouths.

Examples, please? This reads like some kind of talking-point script, so it would only be correct of you to provide evidence of hatred spewing. We must be certain just who you are talking about. Maybe it’s nobody from around here.

Sam I haven’t seen any of your comments deleted your entitled to your opinion and were entitled to ours however out there they may be.

And tell me why a gay man (or any other person) should be tolerant of a bunch of punks yelling threats at him? How tolerant would you be if a bunch of lesbians surrounded you screaming “BREEDER!” “CHICK FUCKER!” “OPPRESSER!” at you while merely walking down the street? Not very, I imagine.

It’s fine with me if you don’t agree with the “gay lifestyle,” but don’t sit there and play the victim on this board after throwing out a flame post.

Sexuality, (of any form) isn’t a right.

Hard to imagine any definition of liberty that doesn’t include the right to choose whom you establish intimate relationships with.

Is Sam a Wise Latina (Now With Rich Life Experience!™)? Because now would be a good time to bring any sort of wisdom to this thread. Anything. Bueller… (Too soon?)

Also, as a member of Team Oppression, I will admit that I am intolerant. I am intolerant of poorly explained assertions in arguments/debates.

So:

1. Why are you right?
2. Why are they wrong?

Could you please just answer those two things for me and spare me from reading over your defensive rants again? I pretty much know what everyone else said without reading it.

Also, I’ll need answers to both questions or rich life experiences to illustrate your point (but only if you’re a Wise Latina).

Also, stop by http://www.m-w.com and look up “intolerant” and “disagree”. You’ll see there are different definitions. If “we” were intolerant, this thread wouldn’t even be hoppin’ right now because no one would know you were ever on this site.

Also and such, as well.

Surely you called a nancy boy to insult me. Sadly humorous.

Most of my humor is sad, yes.

…but you are living in an alternate universe.

If by that you mean Anoka County, yes, you’re right again.

This guy/gal is good! Welcome to MNspeak, Sam.

I think Nancy Boy is funny. Looking for a way to use it w/o being offensive. Bob never worries about being offensive.

Was fishing with a guide and another guy in Montana a few years ago in a coporate-type outing. They guide starts heckling the other guy in boat, telling him to quit throwing those Nancy Casts. He was getting paid about $400 a day to give the guy a hard time.