Secrets of the City

Maybe these angry people know something I don’t, but I’ll reserve judgment on this “plan” until there is an outline, much less details.

Here’s the town hall meeting I would have enjoyed attending.

With about a dozen SEIU members, of course.

I wonder if guys from The Uppercut Boxing Gym have been recruited for Town Hall Meeting muscle.

Democracy sucks these days.

Democracy is stong enough to survive a few shouters. After all, it survived a civil war.

Some words worth remembering today:

“We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.”

–Abraham Lincoln

Well said, jpb.

Thanks. The best lines are from old Abe. I wonder if he ever got shouted down at a town hall meeting?

It may also be worth remembering that both German and Italian fascism rose from the ashes of failed democracies. It may not be as robust as you think, Bob, and we should be vigilant about where our democratic systems can be abused be demagogues. Democracy relies on vigorous debate that is based in real facts; when it starts becoming partisan shouting contests based in contradictory propaganda, it isn’t democracy anymore.

Recently I heard that Lincoln was once confronted by an angry citizen who told him he was “two faced.”

Lincoln just smiled and replied: “If I had two faces, would I be wearing this one?”

“The first of these to come into being is one-man rule, which arises unaided and in the natural course of events. After one-man rule, and developing from it with the aid of art and through the correction of its defects comes kingship. This later degenerated into its corrupt but associated form, by which I mean tyranny, and then the abolition of both gives rise to aristocracy. Aristocracy by its very nature degenerates into oligarchy, and when the populace rises in anger to avenge the injustices committed by its rulers, democracy is born; then in due course, out of the license and lawlessness which are generated by this type of regime, mob rule comes into being and completes the cycle.”

-Polybius: The Rise of the Roman Empire.

The country is divided in many ways. If one looks under the surface you can see that this is a war between generations. I find it interesting that many of the opponents of a government health care plan are older adults that would be utilizing medicaid and/or Medicare. The line divides on who gets the majority of the health care pie. The old fuckers don’t want to give up anything and the young kids want more. The debate and fear is real and in the end is is an issue of scarce resources. Take theirs not mine. Why don’t we just tell all of the old farts that we are going to end ALL governmental programs which includes medicare and medicaid and see how that one goes over. Instead the hypocritical bastards want their program funded and demand us to pay for it. It is to late to go back to a free market solution, to many people are on the dole now. I don’t know what the answer is but a generational war is about to begin.

If one looks under the surface you can see that this is a war between generations.

This wouldn’t be the first time that happened. But IMHO the division is more class-based, resting as it does on the question of taxes: Who to tax, how much to tax, what to do with tax revenue. The health care debate is an extension of the tea-bagger tax protests.

Why don’t we just tell all of the old farts that we are going to end ALL governmental programs which includes medicare and medicaid and see how that one goes over.

A tweet from Noah Kunin, who was covering the “Minnesota Tea Party Town Hall” on health care and cap & trade, said that’s exactly what someone said there:

noahkunin: @theuptake The most honest conservative rebuttal to reform I’ve seen – if health care is not a right, big solution is to dissolve Medicare.

I have no problem with ending medicare but I know it will not happen. At that point we have a health-care system the is “to big to fail” or be ignored. The democrats and the Republicans are demigoding this thing to death. The outcome will be some kind of class warfare. What I really do not understand is why don’t the democrats just say fuck you all, we won two of the three branches of government and pass their plan. Did they think that the far right would ever agree with them.

I think that the President, and many who voted for him, honestly thought they would see a new spirit of bipartisanship develop after the election. Sadly, they were mistaken.

In the end, it is likey to be voted along party lines. If it becomes law, the opposition will soon be forgotten.

Did you think so, Bob?

What? I voted for John McCain. Obama wasn’t even born in this country!!!

To answer your question, no, I didn’t, but I wish it could happen.

I was certainly hopeful our long, national nightmare was over.

Someone, please, wake me up when it is finally over?

McCain would be fighting off the conservatives, liberals AND Sarah Palin at this point. So, it could be worse.

“Someone, please, wake me up when it is finally over?”

See you in 20 years Mr. Van Winkle.

The linchpin of democracy is accepting the outcome of elections. For example, our country did not completely break down when GWBII was elected in 2000 despite all of the irregularities. For the most part, the losing side begrudgingly accepted the outcome.

However, there is a contingent that have mostly refused to acknowledge the fact that their side in fact lost the last election. (To a non-native born Muslim). Thus, they are stirring up talk of revolution. Primarily they believe that a majority of people support their position, but they have no evidence to support that other than the fact that no American would elect a non-native born Muslim to the presidency.

It is these so-called “patriots” that are behaving in a very un-American fashion. They should just move to the Soviet Union where this type of thing is tolerated.

Who better to respond the the screamers than a guy famious for his scream?

More pearls of wisdom from a celebrated hockey mom who likes to shop here.

they are stirring up talk of revolution.

For some reason, the image I get is of someone just looking for a fight — any fight. Like a bully.

In much the same manner, a bully refuses to believe they are wrong no matter what kind of evidence is given them to the contrary. They just want to bust some heads.

I think both parties participate in bulling people. What is ridiculous is that the media and both parties play up the battle for any given issue. The majority of us don’t want to fund dead beats with our tax dollars, do not care much about abortion, gays ect. Most of us just want to get along, are willing to pay their fair share and live their lives with our intrusion form either party. That makes for boring media and is not good for fund raising. In the end “we the people are to blame because we accept it like sheep. It looks to me like we have red sheep and blue sheep, maybe we should just start eating mutton.

I think Jonathan Swift beat you to the idea of solving a society’s problems via cannibalism, swandog.

However, I do think most people do want to “just get along,” as you note.

Oh dear. Do they think will make the shouting stop? Or just get louder?

@JPSantori Sounds like the Senate negotiators just dropped end-of-life counseling from the bill. Too bad. Shouters win.

Oddly enough, end-of-life counseling is in my benefits package, administered by the Lutheran Church – Missouri Synod.

@justpbob: That is why I don’t like committees. You wind up with a camel instead of a horse.

Except, nood, the camel is very good at what it does.

And it’s starting to look like the people selling this health plan, are not.

Via Doug Grow @ MinnPost, here’s an interesting look at Teabaggers vs Betty.

Except, nood, the camel is very good at what it does.

But not when what was needed was a horse. Kind of like what happened to the Jeep as a military vehicle. It got turned into the Humvee.