Secrets of the City

Noodleman-
with all due respect – keeping religion out of the discussion when discussing the actions of the repressive, fundamentalist, theocratic regime of the Islamic Republic of Iran is simply not possible. I’m sorry, but I feel it must be pointed out.

Yeah, Dan but what about the Crusades?

The religion angle really doesn’t matter — every paranoid government sees everyone as spies/threats.

You can find examples in North Korea, old (and new) USSR, and err…closer to home.

Saberi was in Iran past the date on her Visa. I believe that’s why she was originally detained.

So, if you are reporting out news from an “enemy” country without their permission, are you a spy? I’d say yes. Now, was she really spying? I doubt it and hopefully she will be home soon, but at minimum she broke their immigration laws.

“At what point does a legitimate (i.e. non-covert) reporter become a spy in the eyes of those about whom they are filing stories?”

When you’re dealing with a the repressive, fundamentalist, theocratic regime of the Islamic Republic of Iran, it could be when she bought that bottle of wine. Isn’t that what she was caught doing?

I’m gonna tend to side with an American female journalist who was indeed apparently arrested for buying a bottle of wine rather than a repressive fundamentalist regime that treats women worse than it treats dogs. I’m funny that way.

Oh, I take back the immigration charge, she had her press credintials revoked. So, she was still breaking an Iranian law by continuing to report without proper rights to do so.

Backwards? Yes. But as we expect people to follow our backwards laws, we must follow the laws of the country we are in.

What backward U.S. laws would those be, KC?

In America, you can be gay and now get married in 4 states. Hopefully, in our lifetimes, the other 46 states will soon follow. In Iran, you can be gay and find yourself hanging from a tall post in a public square, all sanctioned by Iran’s central government. I’m not seeing the comparison, sorry.

@Dan Israel: The story has nothing to do with religion. Oppressive regimes come in all stripes and colors … and the US has arrested foreign journalists, too, for espionage.

@Rat: kc! might mean things like dry laws in certain counties around the US.

Rat: from what I understand, the “bottle of wine” is the standard default charge all Western detainees get hit with.

In fact, her parents now say she was instructed by her jailers to say that.

BTW, you can’t buy wine at a liquor store in Minnesota on a Sunday. So who are we to judge?

~shakes head~

Who are we to judge? Who are we to judge? Not being able to buy wine on Sundays is equivalent to being arrested for buying a bottle of wine and being charged with espionage? Dry laws in certain counties is equivalent to living under the theocratic regime of the Ayatollahs? Hello? Is this thing on?

Loathing your own country is the new black.

Being gay in Iran:
http://gayswithoutborders.wordpress.com/2008/03/28/peter-tatchell-in-iran-gay-men-are-hanged-in-public-using-the-barbaric-slow-strangulation-method/

Being a woman in Iran:
http://www.iran-press-service.com/ips/articles-2004/december/iran_executions_191204.shtml

Oh yeah, and Iran’s President denies the Holocaust, holds Holocaust-denial conferences, and threatens to wipe Israel off the map. And the Iranian regime supports terrorist groups like Hezbollah and Hamas. But hey, we’re “backwards too,” right?

To get the thread but on the track I had originally intended it to be on …

Here’s an example of something that may or may not be considered “spying” by a government:

http://jamesfallows.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/04/what_is_this_swat_team_in_the.php

Fallows knows what to leave well enough alone but a paranoid official might still take offense at some of the details. Plus, is this a personal blog or an online magazine column?

Laws like dry counties, having to have a permit to protest, not being able to have cooktop grills at restaurants, not allowing media in a courtroom, not being able to have cows in your garage. It depends where you come from if the law is backwards or not…

And Dan, I agree that Iran is a terrible place for women and gays, but this particular woman chose to be there. She chose to be a reporter without permission. It has nothing to do with religion.

I think I’m gonna be sick. You guys aren’t really siding with the Iranian government against Saberi here, are you? Tell me you’re not. Please. I need some faith in humanity still. “She chose to be a reporter without permission.” Are you kidding me? Is this an April Fool’s joke?

This is one of the few times on MNSpeak/SOTC where I can say, I absolutely do not believe what I am reading here.

Am I siding with the Iranian government here? No. They should have freedom of press.

But, if you are in another country, regardless of which country it is, and you break their laws, you should expect to go to jail. Same as here.

And to Noodleman’s question about treason: yes, I see that a country who tells a foreigner they cannot report from inside that country and the person continues to do so may believe they are commiting treason.

What backward U.S. laws would those be, KC?

How about the law that prohibits HIV positive people from obtaining visas to visit the US?

Dear Mr. Dan Israel:

Are you aware that there are some totalitarian repressive governments in countries where you need to have a permit to be a reporter and would get arrested for reporting without one, and some of these countries are not even islamic theocracies?

I don’t think religion is an issue in her arrest. I’m sorry, but I feel it must be pointed out.

I don’t expect people to follow our backwards laws. If they are unjust, I expect people to break them.

Sometimes people break laws when they’re merely inconvenient.

True. And sometimes people break laws because they are crazy, but that’s neither here not there in this discussion.

I don’t know that it is fair to ask that religion be left out of this conversation. Iran is an Islamic Republic, so essentially theorcratic, and laws in Iran must be deemed compatable with Sharia, or Islamic religious law. Only five members of the 290 member parliament are religious minorities.

Religion and law are inextrivably entwined in Iran, and so discussion of this fact should not be off the table.

Calm yourself, Dan. You are fightening The Rat.

If you want some anti-Islam ranting, I suggest you visit the Anti-Strib blog. They post regularly on that subject.

I think you’re a decent guy, and you have strong feelings about the current administration in Iraq. Okay then.

However, we are talking about the very serious trouble a young woman with local ties got herself into because she did something rather reckless and foolhardy in a foriegn nation. That’s it.

Should Iraq let her go immediately? Hell, yes.

However, when you jump in and play the religion card, you can expect some pushback.

Bob, she was in Iran, not Iraq.

And Dan’s beef is with KC, not with Rat. Rat is agreeing with him.

Keep up!

Which passages of the Koran deal with freedom of the press?

You expect people to break unjust laws? And by who’s definition of unjust? And to what end?

Take a law like “you must have a permit to have a protest march.” You break the law, you go to jail, then end. It has already been held up in court as being constitutional. What does that get you?

Or more similar to this case is “you must have a liscense to practice law (on behalf of others).” Break it and you go to jail. What good did that do? Especially if you are a foreign born citizen (and I doubt Iran sees her as much of a citizen) from a country that is a sworn enemy? That gets you put in jail, in a foreign country.

I dunno. You might look into the history of the civil rights movements for some examples.

Take a law like “you must have a permit to have a protest march.” You break the law, you go to jail, then end. It has already been held up in court as being constitutional. What does that get you?

As a former animal rights activist, I can tell you that it gets you a whole lot.  First, it will likely garner press coverage, which is usually the #1 objective of any demonstration.  Second, it garners sympathy for your cause if you are arrested for peacfully demonstrating.  Third, most activists wear arrests like badges of honor so it gives you cred with other activists.  Many times activists WANT to be arrrested for the reasons listed above.  My most successful demos involved arrests.

One of the issues is that there is no guarantee of Freedom of the Press in the Koran. Of course, it doesn’t exist in the Bible either, but secular countries can write it into their constitutions, as we did, without feeling the need to justify doing so against an extant religious tradition.

@Max: My questions, though, do not involve religion or Iran specifically. That is why I requested religion be left out of this discussion.

At what point does a legitimate journalist become a threat to the status quo and is labeled a spy? Is it spying to be in a public place or forum, and then summarize and disseminate the words and actions of others to a larger audience? Is it “righteous” or is it “self-righteous” indignation when a “citizen journalist” complains after they are refused into a press conference (as happened earlier this year when the Coleman-Franken keruffle got rollling)?

Why do our own leaders sometimes view reporters in an antagonistic manner, when “freedom of the press” is guaranteed constitutionally in this country and “open access” is often mandated by law? Why do some local and state governments take such a hypocritical view of press freedom by denying coverage by reporters they deem “illegitimate.”

These things happen in our own country.

Sure, they happen everywhere. But they are justified in different ways, and it’s worthwhile to understand how abuse is justified. In Iran, it is justified through religion.

The broader questions you ask can be answered without looking at religion, but the specifics of this case cannot.

Now, I know. But take Rosa Parks. She didn’t just break a law. She broke a law at a politically good time with lawyers and politicians waiting in the wings to swoop in and take up a cause. It was preplanned and there was a set stratgy. She was chosen because of her personality traits, history and sex. They didn’t do it 50 years earlier for a reason. The time was right.

Then you have this woman. An American citizen chosing to break a law in a foreign country that thinks America is the mortal enemy. That’s a whole different ball of wax. The current situation in Iran is for the Iranian people to work out. This woman was plain stupid. From what we have seen, she wasn’t part of a movement. She wasn’t supported by thousands. She made a dumb mistake and is paying for it. Way too harshly, yes, but she knew, just as I knew, breaking laws in Iran mean jail or death.

And, when I entered Nicaragua and registered with the American Embassay I was told that I would get no help from the US if I broke a law in Nicaragua and went to jail. Basically, you are in that country by choice and that choice means chosing to live by the laws, regardless of what you think of them.

Secular countries can also not have freedom of the press, which is why the religion of this repressive regime isn’t any more germaine than the lack of religion in a country like China or North Korea that restricts press activity.

Actually, Saberi has dual citizenship. Iran is treating her as an Iranian citizen and does not recognize that she is also a U.S. citizen.

It seems as if it’s convenient for the Iranian gov’t to charge Saberi with “spying”. From what I’ve read, Iran “tolerated” journalists reporting without renewing credentials. Why are they charging her now vs. in 2006 when her credentials became invalid?

It doesn’t seem to add up.

Re: Saberi. She is also as much of a pawn of diplomatic politics as anything else.

Bob, she was in Iran, not Iraq.

Heck, all them Aye-Rab countries look the same to me! (grin) Sorry, I meant Iran. Slip of the mind. I also knew where The Rat was going, tara.

PS: Before anyone mentions it, I am also aware that Iranians are not Arabs, ethnically speaking. Just trying to lighten the mood a bit.

I’m sorry, kc, but people did break Jim Crow laws prior to Rosa Parks. Just because her example was notably successful doesn’t mean it was never tried before: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws#Early_attempts_to_break_Jim_Crow

And they didn’t do it 50 years before because segregation on public buses didn’t exist 50 years previously, not because it was politically inexpedient. There were no Jim Crow laws about sitting at the back of the bus in 1905.

“Can a legitimate reporter ever be trusted”

No. I’m looking at you DeRussia.

Here’s a thought, what if she actually was spying and breaking laws that would get her imprisioned, here or in any country, for life?

I find it interesting that people are often assumed (by the public) guilty until innocent, unless the person is being charged by a perceived enemy.

Is our blind nationalism and different than Iran’s?

Yes, Plessy vs. Ferguson. Plessy went to jail. Plessy lost. That’s my point, the climate wasn’t right.

I know the history. I have a BA in it, with a speciality in 19th Century Race Relations. I believe people should try to make changes when laws are truly unjust. I think what is going on right now around Gay Marriage is wonderful. I think new media in the US is making great strides in breaking down some of our 1st amendment issues.

But, I think Sabri is an idiot. I think when a government says, you can’t be a journalist here anymore, you leave. There are still people there with journalist privledges, it isn’t like they kicked them all out. I disagree with Iran’s government on most issues, but it isn’t my place to make changes. It is the place of true Iranians to make changes.

“She is also as much of a pawn of diplomatic politics as anything else.”

What’s the term in Austrian for wheeling and dealing?

“This woman was plain stupid”

Keep it up, KC. You’re doing my job for me, here. If you really think “she’s got whatever’s coming to her”….well, I’ll just let you keep digging the hole you’ve made for yourself. You don’t need my help, you’re doing great.

Do you really think that people who break laws that are wrong are the ones in the wrong themselves? Do you really not believe in principled civil disobedience? I don’t think you want to go there – or maybe you do!

“I disagree with Iran’s government on most issues”

KC – please, if you would, enlighten us all about the issues on which you and the Iranian government see eye-to-eye. Inquiring minds want to know.

Saberi has been living in Iran for the past 6 years and her father grew up for a time in Iran so she knew a bit more than just being a journalist reporting for an american-based company. That said, was she just being “foolish” or was she given the impression that she would be ok?

Also, do we know that she wasn’t trying to get her credentials back or are we just assuming? I don’t know that I’m ready to put her in either the spy or stupid chair just yet.

I think KC just doesn’t have a basic respect for the important jobs that journalists do, and that the stories that people don’t want reported, and that you’re most likely to get in trouble for reporting, are the ones that often most need reporting.

Also, I’m not sure how people are supposed to know when the exact right time is to break an unjust law,a nd when it might be counterproductive. Rosa Parks must have had some sort of astonishing timepiece.

Look, Rosa Parks knew the rules. She should have just been a good little Jim Crow-law-follower and gone and sat in the back of the bus. What an idiot! When in Rome, you damn well better do as the Romans do. Wouldn’t want to break a law, no matter how unjust the law is!

Dan, Rosa Parks could do what she wanted to, because she had great timing.

The rest of us, well, if our timing is off, we get what’s coming to us.

“It is the place of true Iranians to make changes.”

And it’s so easy for “true Iranians” to make changes. Because, of course, Iran doesn’t, you know, imprison and torture anyone who speaks out against the theocratic regime or anything.

Martin Luther King Jr. too – that guy clearly didn’t have the proper protest permits. When in Selma, do as the Selmans do!

Another bunch of rabble-rousers who should have followed the LAW:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots

OK, guys. Let’s behave. I also think KC is wrong, but everybody doesn’t have to gang up and go all ape-sh*t on her. You could make your points without all the sarcasm. Meanies!

Also, migrant workers from Mexico shouldn’t ever protest in the US. It’s not their place to try to make change.

I’m sorry to make fun, but I really don’t know what else to do.

It’s not like the US doesn’t have its own versions of this: Hell, we even deport our own citizens.

I’ll agree that she’s mostly a victim of political gamemanship, whether domestic (Iran), or international (US/Iran).  But she had to realize that she was putting herself in a dicey situation when she continued to work as a reporter after her creditentials were revoked, even if it was a common practice. It’s not like the Iranian regime hasn’t cracked down on things like this in the past. Especially during a run-up to an election.

Rome? Keep the Pope out of this, Dan.

Me, I’m going to Tel Aviv and order a ham sandwich on the Sabbath. Going to wash it down with a He-Brew.

As long as you have that sammich on matzoh, you’ll probably be okay.

What’s the term in Austrian for wheeling and dealing?

Heh. Remember that when someone speaks “Australian” or “American.”

I don’t know any Australian, and I only know one word of whatever they speak in New Zealand: Kiwi.

Fortunately, from what I can tell, you can call just about anything a kiwi.

Personally, I would feel a little overly dramatic comparing Roxanna Saberi to Rosa Parks or Martin Luther King, but that’s just me.

I suppose every knows that Iran has elections and multiple political parties, and that for many years this wasn’t the case since the U.S. engineered the overthrow of the democratically elected goverment, replacing it with a dictator.

You can ask for democracy, but you might not like who gets elected-what? did I say Hamas?

Y’all do realize that the Obama administration disagrees with those of you who think Saberi was in the wrong, correct?
http://uk.reuters.com/article/oilRpt/idUKN0852822620090408

Ridiculous. Fargo isn’t even in Minnesota. Puppet-boy, hit the delete button and let’s all forget this post ever happened.

Yeah, that’s the problem with democracy. But I’m not convinced we can call Iran a democracy just yet.

Hell, for eight years, I wan’t even sure America was one.

Oh my God. Anonymous John is bud.

Welcome back, guy.

Re: Rosa Parks. Actually, didn’t she just not want to move after a long, long day of work? It was those who came to her aid, after her arrest, that actually started that particular “fire.” Rosa didn’t consciously ignite anything, except the ire of dem white folk.

“the U.S. engineered the overthrow of the democratically elected goverment, replacing it with a dictator.”

Yes, true. In 1956!

1956, so long ago, can’t we just forget about all that who overthrew what business?

Nah, Rosa was a plant. The civil rights movement had been looking for someone to do exactly what she did. They were even going to have another woman do it, but she was preganant with the child of an older married man, and, since a lot of the support for civil rights came from churches, was deemed too scandelous.

It’s an interesting tale, albeit a little off subject.

Oh my God. Anonymous John is bud.

Now if Berfus would just come back, MNspeak would be whole again!

Who the Eff is Rosa Parks?
Sooo kidding.

Haayyy, wait a minute. Whenever I’m in Bixby’s car, she makes me sit in the back. What’s up with that?

Let’s forget about that nasty little hostage taking then too, huh? That was “way back” in 1979, right? Or the Beirut Marine barracks bombing? Or the bombing of Jewish community centers in Argentina by Iran? I mean, if we’re gonna overlook things, right?

As long as you have that sammich on matzoh, you’ll probably be okay.

Heh. Don’t tease the goyim!

Ridiculous. Fargo isn’t even in Minnesota.

Nonsense. Saberi has dual citizenship, which means she can travel freely from Fargo to Moorhead, once the water goes down.

Haayyy, wait a minute. Whenever I’m in Bixby’s car, she makes me sit in the back. What’s up with that?

It’s because of the pile of half-drunk water bottles she keeps in the passenger seat.

@Max: “Sheila” and “barbie” are two Australian words because they are not used in the same manner anywhere else in the English-speaking world. The British think Americans are heathens because we don’t talk about putting luggage in the boot, we don’t live in flats, we don’t ride lifts, and we don’t smoke fags. (I blame Oral Roberts for that last one.) And we pronounce “aluminum” just as the word is written, without adding a crazy extra syllable or a superfluous “u” of which the British are so fond.

On the other hand, we Americans snigger like Bevis and Butthead whenever a British chap says “ta ta!” or names his daughter “Fanny.”

From Miss North Dakota to international journo-spy? All I know is, I’d love to have a beer with her. Or a glass of Iranian wine?

Local filmmaker Steve Spencer did meet her when he was filming (covertly, I believe) in Iran. Getting the story can be risky business, I think everyone knows that. I hope she has a safe speedy release and look forward to hearing her story.

I doubt there are many British chaps naming their daughters Fanny anymore. It has a decidedly sexual connotation now.

@Dan Israel: We got back at them Eye-raynians for the hostage thing when we shot down one of the airliners.

c/their airliners

That’s my point exactly, let’s not overlook things, but let’s look at everything, not just the facts that you find most helpful.

I think it’s a very interesting story overall, almost local girl could be a spy, probably not but maybe, probably just picked up as a test of Obama, something to give back and look good (remember those British sailors?).

There is a lot to think about without going IRAN!!! HOLY CRAP!!! THEY’RE BAD!!! MUSLIMS!!!! Plenty of places on the internet for that.

I’m surprised that that Cat is Still Cat hasn’t pointed out that Saberi’s mom is from Japan.

Trust me, I will discourage anyone from using this as a forum for Muslim bashing. But that doesn’t mean the subject of Iran’s specific interpretation of religious law is unrelated to the subject.

Rosa was a plant. The civil rights movement had been looking for someone to do exactly what she did.

We’ve never let a myth stand in our way before, like Washington and the cherry tree or the founding of the US as a “Christian” nation.

“There is a lot to think about without going IRAN!!! HOLY CRAP!!! THEY’RE BAD!!! MUSLIMS!!!!”

I’m looking at this whole thread and see absolutely nothing like that. Straw man alert!

I doubt there are many British chaps naming their daughters Fanny anymore. It has a decidedly sexual connotation now.

Maybe so, except it’s a nickname for Frances. Looks to still be somewhat popular in Sweden. Darn, those sexy, free-lovin’ Swedes.

I really doubt any specific interpretation of “religious law” has anything to do with her arrest. And if it does, no one here has cited any such interpretation that we can discuss.

Dan, you were pretty hysterical from the start.

A very valid point remains, that many many countries have restrictive laws, regardless of religion, yet you find it impossible to look at this story without focussing on religion from the start, and I disagree with that.

Bud is back? Would he consider Saberi a “newsbunny”?

I seem to recall that around 2000 or 2001 Iran was on the road to “moderation.” The religious leaders who actually run the country had some big time defeats in the elected portion. (The president of Iran is just a figurehead, he wields little power.) At about this time, some doofus called them part of an axis of evil, and things went all “pear-shaped” from then on. (I’m practicing my English.)

Trust me, I will discourage anyone from using this as a forum for Muslim bashing.

You’re channeling you Irish side now, max. At least they, to their great credit, have largely put their religious “Troubles” behind them and found peace together. As many of our ancesters did when they came to the USA.

Let’s keep the peace here, too.

Yeah, you’re right – I really was “hysterical from the start” – here’s my first “hysterical” post to start the thread:

“Noodleman-
with all due respect – keeping religion out of the discussion when discussing the actions of the repressive, fundamentalist, theocratic regime of the Islamic Republic of Iran is simply not possible. I’m sorry, but I feel it must be pointed out.”

I’m outta control!!!

Japan!? Japan!!!?
You speak of peace, Bob, but then you conveniently forget that my default country is C-H-I-N-A.

Sheesh.

Well, there hasn’t really been a discussion of the religious theorcracy as it relates to this, but for Dan pointing out that the country is generally repressive. Mostly, we’ve just talked about whether we should talk about it.

I agree that they are not repressive because they are Muslim.

As an Irish Jew, I never really had a dog in the Troubles. I’ll drink Jameson and Bushmills with equal pleasure. Green AND orange!

Dan, perhaps your talents would be better served if you started writing “Free Roxana Saberi!” now.

Music can be a powerful medium, as you well know.

Besides, I can’t wait for the verse “…Abdolsamad Khorramshahi let her down, an honest lawyer in that repressive, fundamentalist, theocratic regime can’t be found…”

You speak of peace, Bob, but then you conveniently forget that my default country is C-H-I-N-A.

I know. I was waiting for you to evoke Nanking and get a whole new ethnic brawl going. But let’s not, shall we?

Didn’t write something about Roxana ..

 Roxana, you don’t have to drink the red wine;

Those days are over.

You don’t have to spill the bottle in the night;

Roxana, you don’t have to confess tonight.

Er, something like that.

I’ll drink Jameson and Bushmills with equal pleasure.

Look, it’s people like you what causes unrest.

c/Didn’t Sting write something

Ho-boy. Heres I goes agin.

@justpbob: CiSC wears a nanking when slurping noodle soup.

The truth is, given my drothers, I’ll drink Red Breast.

I think what Noodleman was really looking for was an examination of Richard Sorge and the myriad examples of Journalist/spies from the Russo-Japanese war.

Also comparing Rosa Parks and the civil rights movements to some poor journo in Iran is pretty much a subset of Godwin’s law in my opinion.

Slow the hyperventilation, every American loves their country or at least their little slice of it. However, belief in its infallibility is entirely optional, Senior Rat.

Also it is common belief that any country that begins its religious observations with ‘death to America’ is Michelle Bachmann Batshit crazy.

That is all.

I think you guys are thinking of Toto…

Not quite a year since she went away, Roxanna yeah.

Now shes gone and I have to say

Meet you all the way, meet you all the way, Roxanna yeah

Meet you all the way, meet you all the way, Roxanna yeah

Umm, dudes – I’m in the room!

Ok, I do wear a nanking while eating soup, and poi for that matter, but I never, ever, slurp!

Was anybody really comparing the journalist to Rosa Parks? That was a digression, not a direct comparison.

Indirect comparisons were made, for Godwin’s law to be invoked mere mention is enough. So for this corollary, mere mention of MLK or Rosa Parks should be sufficient.

As a person who is well experienced overseas, I cannot overemphasize the point that you should really behave better overseas than you do in your own country, and obeying local laws is only the beginning. Your embassy will not help you and your employers cannot help you, pretty much it’s you vs. them if you get into a kerfuffle. Also going into a country that cuts off hands, hangs and stones people, do you really want to have a run in with their police? Don’t poke the bear in his own den.

Then Godwin’s Law is worse than HITLER.

Thanks, lunch! Sort of. Kind of.

I was also trying to find how peoples’ perceptions of journalists have changed. Communities can also see them as a threat (or a representation of a threat) as easily as can any government. (Thinking back to what happened to some news trucks in North Minneapolis in 1992 after the Simi Valley verdict.) How many here were in any of the areas of unrest during the RNC and wondered if that cameraman next to you was really from a TV station or was maybe instead a cop shooting footage for future criminal prosecutions?

For all of our talk about press freedoms, my other perception is that we’ve all become more private with the information we share via media we can’t personally control. We easily express ourselves on Facebook & MySpace but if someone sticks a camera or microphone in our face, the instinct is to shut up. Yet, some think that even if their lives are online, it’s private — not public — information. E.g., copyright issues aside, a young woman in California posts an uncomplimentary poem to her public, password-unprotected blog about her community, and the local paper publishes it on its Op-Ed page.

P.S. IIRC Sorge’s spying was WWII-era, not during the Russo-Japanese war (1905-06). Sorge, in fact, was dead by the time Russia declared war on Japan in 1945.

And Max is like Comic Sans font.

Sorge’s spying was indeed WWII era, but the Japanese history of targeting/locking out journalists has existed since the Russo Japanese war the siege of port arthur and mukden campaigns are illustrative. Sorge being mentioned first was simply poor formatting on my part.

Comic Sans is worse than Godwin’s law!

@lunch! Hai, wakarimasu.

@CiSC: Ok, I do wear a nanking while eating soup, and poi for that matter, but I never, ever, slurp!

But slurping noodles is considered a GOOD thing in China. And Japan.

More sensitive? I doubt it. They get arrested, instead of getting killed. That’s more friendly.

I can’t help but think back to that kid who was spanked in Singapore for graffiti back in the 90’s. I’m not trying to blame the journo in this, but I have to side with some that say it’s best to err on the side of caution when it comes to local laws or at least somewhat accept your fate should you be caught. Hopefully she will be returned to the US safely.

C’mon now, a story about a hot lefty immigrant communist in Islamic Iran, and that’s all bud would have to say on the topic? I mean, wouldn’t he at least demand the Strib publish the arrest photo?

I cannot overemphasize the point that you should really behave better overseas than you do in your own country, and obeying local laws is only the beginning.

“Locked Up Abroad”  on Nat Geo is a terrifying show that illustrates this point quite well.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that, until recently, France had some of the worst prison conditions in the developed world, Cubbie.

@aliecat: There were some family issues involved with that kid’s delinquency but, sheesh, I don’t know of any adult who would not have punished him for keying cars. Maybe not caning but certainly more than the typical slap-on-wrist juveniles receive in the US.

But it”s true: You don’t f**k around overseas. I knew of two schoolmates in Japan deported for transgressions, including drug use and sales. Penalties for such things are more severe in other countries. When, at one time, I was considering a move to Kuwait to help set up a cable radio operation, I was bluntly told alcohol was verboten in that country. But *wink wink* people would spend weekends in then-Shah-rule Iran partying it up

MAYBE not caning? As in hitting him several times with rattan canes and martial arts skill until the flesh is ripped off him?

I would hope not.

What is it about the U.S. you really want to say by starting the discussion, Noodleman?

Because there must be something.

Nood, we were told about the same thing when I went to Greece about drugs (not that Athens is like Amsterdam or anything), but essentially we were told that the bar is set higher for guests than for residents. It’s not like the Greek coppers were looking to jam up an American college kid, but they were known to make an example out of scofflaw tourists.

Now, whether that’s true or just a clever way to scare us away from indulging in a public toke on the Placa, I can’t say.

But, truly, I hope that this young woman is able to return home soon. I’m sure being caught up in doing something important, draconian laws be damned, doesn’t warrant being locked up for the rest of your life.

Say what you want about caning, Rat, but damn, Singapore is clean.

/obvs kidding.

The people of Singapore are very obedient.

Fu*kin awesome! Where was I today…too busy with work to come argue. This looked like it was fun.

I think I understand now. A professional, experienced woman journalist who freelanced for NPR and was trying to do some reporting from Iran is just like that moron teenager who keyed cars in Singapore. Thanks for clearing it all up for me. On further reflection, I think Taberi deserves a good caning for her outrageous attempt to report the news.

But slurping noodles is considered a GOOD thing in China. And Japan.

Tell the Irish mum that, Nood.

Dan, you could get a gold medal in jumping to conclusions. I was in no way comparing the two, I simply stated that the caning case was the first thing that popped into my head.

Sheesh.

Wow. Assholes were out today, I guess I shouldn’t have gone to those meetings and defended myself.

Max, I’ve never seen you be so mean. I talk about how I think new media is doing amazing things in the US and make the point that there are still legal reporters in Iran (therefore if you aren’t legal, you shouldn’t be reporting) and all of a sudden I “don’t have respect” for what journalists do. Hmmm, I said the opposite.

And I say “I believe people should try to make changes when laws are truly unjust. I think what is going on right now around Gay Marriage is wonderful” and all of a sudden I believe that we shouldn’t try to make changes in this country.

While I didn’t read most of these comments, since I was being personally attacked (which Max apparently only allows when he is doing it), it is very clear that there was no way to have an intelligent conversation on this topic. Clearly, every single thing the Iran government does is wrong. If they set up a library or a university, they are wrong. If they allow elections, they are wrong. I mean, they are Iran.

And since this woman clearly needs not be held responsible for what she has done, I expect the next time a foreigner commits a crime in this country you will stick up for them and not hold them accountable. Or you know, when cabbies don’t want to carry alcohol they shouldn’t have to because that’s the law in the country where they came from, why should they have to follow our laws? They are clearly unjust.

The comparison isn’t that far off, in some ways. Lee Kwan Yew used to love to lecture the U.S. and the west in general on its decadent ways. That Michael Fay kid was a perfect example for him. After a direct appeal by Bill Clinton, Lee decided to level a perfect insult. Instead of having the kid caned 10 times, he’d only have him hit six times.

I see the same smug lecturing out of the posters here. Except, they’re fellow Americans, who seem to have little regard for the fate of this women. Roxana Saberi defied the Mullahs. It’s her fault. By extension, maybe it’s America’s fault.

Aliecat-
fair enough…you’re right, I was bit quick to jump to that conclusion. Overall though, I’m still very disturbed by the initial tone and subsequent direction of much of this thread. When it comes to an experienced American woman journalist vs. the mad Mullahs who run Iran, it seems like a no-brainer as to whom one would want to generally side with. I get a tad unnerved when people who I would ordinarily consider to be “liberal” who go out of their way to defend the ultra-conservative (and I mean ULTRA) nutjobs who run Iran. They seem to have one standard for the Christian fundamentalists in this country (who I also abhor) and an entirely different standard for Muslim fundamentalists in repressive regimes like Iran.

But it was indeed unfair of me to make that leap, and I apologize.
Dan

I can’t speak for other posters, but it is possible to recognize the error that a journalist made in defying Iran’s laws without actually siding with ultraconservative nutjobs.

Aliecat, fair enough. Perhaps she made an error. In any country that wasn’t governed by religious maniacs with a medieval mindset, she wouldn’t be imprisoned and charged with espionage for an error like that. I think that was my point.

And it’s a mistaken point, Dan. It was pointed out very early in the thread that there were and are any number of secular authoritarian regimes in which this kind of trumped up charge could, would and has occurred.

The fear of journalists is a function of their authoritarianism, not their religiosity.

True enough, and I don’t think anyone would disagree that the punishment doesn’t fit the crime or that Iran has a rule of law that none of us find palatable, which is why diplomacy is so important.

It was not my intention to make you feel personally attacked, but merely to tease comments I disagreed with, and I apologize for being unclear. I will be more sensitive in the future, and address your points without sarcasm.

Yes, there are indeed any number of authoritarian regimes where this could have occcurred. The Iranian regime’s authoritarianism happens to be a direct result of its radical interpretation of Islam. Thus, it is relevant.

Which is worse: incarcerating journalists or killing them? Iran may be guilty of the former, but Israel is postively guilty of the latter.

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/israel.palestine/update.html

One thing is for sure Iran has a kick ass futbol team (soccer to you).

I still think it’s interesting that few have even considered the possibility she was actually a spy.

I mean, the US employing a journo as a spy? That’d never happen. We respect international law and journalists are a bunch of unpatriotic America haters.

I think the idea of debating Iran’s theocractic role in this is fraught with peril and suspect.

Skug: Are you honestly trying to imply that Israel is a worse place to be than Iran? When was the last time you heard of a American with dual-citizenship with Israel being thrown in jail there and charged with espionage? That is the comparable situation to the one being discussed, not a situation in which a journalist is covering a war in which bullets and rockets are flying.

Anonymous: also, if they did use a journalist as a spy, you can safely bet that their credentials wouldn’t just expire and draw attention to them.

@sandburg – I hear you, but the only safe bet I make about what happens on the International stage is we, the people, never get the entire story and often don’t get the real story.

Israel is not only not the topic here, but is so loaded a subject that it is likely to derail the discussion entirely. Let’s stick to this case for the present, and discuss Israel when the post directly relates to the subject.

Even so, to me, Iran is about as believable as Rush Limbaugh. They probably coerced her into admitting that she was a spy, or are lying about that admission altogether.

And KC, in my opinion, I think you are overreacting–maybe it’s your compulsion to defend Islam in any occasion, even if the issue is ridiculous.

@sandburg

I only made the comparison because I suspect the feverish ranting about Iran is motivated primarily by the tension with Israel and the desire of some for the United States to go to war against Iran.

But in response to your question, would Rachel Corrie be in a comparable situation? Of course, there are differences: She was neither a journalist nor an Israeli citizen, and she was killed rather than incarcerated. And, of course, blaming the victim in that case was perfectly acceptable.

Again, this is not a discussion about Rachel Corrie. Back to the subject, please.

Watching you play cop with this is crazy. This post was derailed off of the author’s intent from the start and now tangents are strictly regulated.

Skug is a crappy troll anyway.

Discussing Islam in Iran may not have been what the author wanted, but is on topic. Israel is not, and, as I said, is something like a third rail in online discussions, and tends to result in really bad discussions.

But if you don’t like my moderation, which is very light, feel free to start your own forum and moderate it in a way that you are more satisfied with.

:::sigh:::

I feel like a substitute teacher who’s lost control of the classroom. Have at it, people. I’m going to the break room now for a smoke and a whiskey neat. See you all after recess!

P.S. For extra credit, you can read:

Who’s Watching Who [Daily Beast]

The current situation in Iran is for the Iranian people to work out.

Or not.  Ayatollah Khomeini says that “This cancerous tumor of a state [Israel] must be removed from the region.”  And in 2005, President Ahmadinejad told the “World Without Zionism” conference that Israel “must be wiped off the map,” as the NYTimes translated it.  Given these hateful threats, many believe that Israel not only can, but should, “work out” the current situation in Iran.    

All right. Discussing Iran in relation to Israel is allowable, as it is on topic; I agree that a lot of the concern about Iran is related to its real or perceived threat to Israel. But let’s not turn this into a game of what is the worse country, or an opportunity to list Israel’s sins agains the Palestinians.

Israel spying on its own citizens, or accusing other of being spies, would also be on topic, as Noodleman expressedly wanted to discuss the way countries repond to journalists and use charges of spying.

Discussing Islam in Iran may not have been what the author wanted, but is on topic. Israel is not, and, as I said, is something like a third rail in online discussions, and tends to result in really bad discussions.

Whoops, just saw that the partial subject of my post has been ruled off-topic.  If we can’t discuss Israel here, perhaps we could move on to abortion or the death penalty?

Actually, I reallowed it as you approached it.

@Max: Actually, as I understand it, the “illegal wine” charge against Saberi was not the cause of her arrest; that she was told by her guards to say so.

So, no, I do not believe Islamic law belongs in this discussion because it is now believed her arrest was precipitated not by illegal alcohol but by her lack of credentials.

It sort of a moot point anyway. It doesn’t seem like anybody, except Dan, wants to discuss it relation to Islam, and he’s made his points. I think most of the talk has just been about whether we should even discuss it or not, and that’s mostly been my fault.

If it actually comes up as a subject of discussion, we can address it then.

But let’s not turn this into a game of what is the worse country, or an opportunity to list Israel’s sins agains the Palestinians.

But we can still do the list of Palestinian sins against the Israelis, right?  No?  Then how about the other urgent question of every era:  waffles:  which is better, Belgian-style or regular?

Hit “save” before I had really intended to.

Here is what I had intended to include with my previous post:

Reza Saberi, a teacher and translator, disclosed on National Public Radio on Sunday that he had heard from his daughter on Feb. 10 that she had been arrested on Jan. 31. “She said that she had bought a bottle of wine, and the person who had sold had reported that one and they came and arrested her,” Reza Saberi, speaking from Fargo, N.D., told “Weekend Edition Sunday” host Scott Simon. “But later we found out that for a bottle of wine they don’t keep the person in detention. It’s just some fine that they get. And, also, this is an excuse they make in order to arrest someone. Someone else also had the same experience, we heard, and they had made the same excuse for him — that person didn’t drink.”

Belgian.

I agree, Max — perfect size, nicer balance of toasty brown exterior and fluffy white interior. I would happily buy you a waffle breakfast at the place of your choosing as a thank-you for the sometimes thankless task of moderating us immoderates.

My life would be full if I never ate another waffle.

Rat, you Zionist pig, errr, rat!

Anything you can put ice cream on and still pretend it’s breakfast is okay in my book.

Thank you, Jack, I may take you up on your offer one day.

@Max: If waffles and ice cream delight your senses, you might find the red bean waffle at Obento-ya to be something new to try. It’s served with ice cream. I hadn’t had one in years (decades!) but enjoyed it earlier this week at lunch. (Photo I found online here.)

Dan brings up Iran’s conflict with Israel, holocaust denial, and Iran’s support for Hezbollah and Hamas, along with several other issues unrelated to the original query. Does Max admonish Dan? To the contrary! He responds by saying, “I don’t know that it is fair to ask that religion be left out of this conversation.”

Twenty-four hours later, I point out that Israel has been accused of killing journalists, which in my view is worse than incarcerating journalists. Max promptly admonishes me, though ot by name.

This is what First Amedment jurisprudence calls viewpoint discrimination (certain viewpoints are verboten), vis-a-viz content discrimination (certain content is verboten). That said, I can appreciate the need for moderation, so I will refrain from further comment. But I couldn’t let the double standard go unmentioned.

@Skug @Dan @Max: Religion does not belong in this discussion. Period. Islamic law, and, hence, any need to discuss religion, was proven to NOT be the rationale behind the arrest of Saberi; only a feint.

Saberi has been charged with espionage as a consequence of lacking up-to-date credentials.

Can we get back to what I had originally intended this thread to be about:

At what point does a legitimate (i.e. non-covert) reporter become a spy in the eyes of those about whom they are filing stories? Can a legitimate reporter ever be trusted — given that there is the perception of  this fine line between “reporting” and “spying” — to act more as a disinterested third-party and less as an covert instrument of a nation’s foreign policy?

Are governments, in the age of the Internet and rapid electronic communications, even more sensitive now to the prospect of spying now that the Fourth Estate includes independent bloggers and “citizen journalists?” Or have some journalists (legit or otherwise) become a bit more clumsy when traveling and make themselves ready targets for accusations of espionage?

Anyone who dares to mention religion again will face the wrath of Chutulu.

“The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity; and it was not meant that we should voyage far.”

I worship Lord Chutulu — but you probably already knew that. Thumbing through my copy of the Necrodemon right now.

Belgian.

Jehovah, Jehovah, Jehovah!

Jehovah waffle? What is that like?

Nerdy Monty Python (isn’t that redundant?) “Life of Brian” reference

All powerful.

Oh, good one, Dan!

I love the Internet:
http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/brian/brian-04.htm

Apparently, my internet is better…

DouglasG – you got me there!

I bet an Iranian jail would be a great place to try on ‘Arabian goggleyes’.

UM prof:

Espionage charges against imprisoned journalist Roxana Saberi are likely a political ploy, said a University of Minnesota expert on Iran.

William O. Beeman, an anthropology professor who has studied Iran for 30 years, said Wednesday that he thinks Saberi is caught in an internal political conflict while the country is in the midst of an election season.

“We tend not to recognize that other nations have internal politics,” Beeman said. “They play dirty tricks on each other. This is a kind of dirty trick.”

Looks like this woman will be freed

If this discussion was any indication of what she might expect from freedom loving American countrymen and women she might want to stay in Iran.