Secrets of the City

Hmmm. Don’t know how the title got amended with “suburban contracter wars,” because it’s not accurately descriptive of the story. More like “urban trash warfare.”

I read this yesterday while I was waiting for The Unborn to start. All I could think was, “This is in the newspaper why?”

Changing. Wanted to include something descriptive in the title.

No problem, Max. I should be more mindful of that but I’m a slow thinker.

Rich people: they’re just as ridiculous as the rest of us.

@kwatt: Well, for one thing, it’s very local news. For another, I suppose we do derive some pleasure from seeing how having money doesn’t always equate people with a higher standard of civility?

Strangely, this story was on the teevee before it was in the paper.

TV? Is that anything like the Internet, Jason?

It’s the Internet minus the knuckleheads plus the celebrities.

This is why you don’t ask your neighbors to shovel their sidewalks. Next thing you know some asshole that lives in a van down by the river is tossing a rock through your window.

To be honest, they did not ask the person in question whether or not they were running a business out of their home. What they did was have the authorities do it. If they would have tactfully informed the neighbor that they were concerned about all the construction materials, then they may have avoided the ill feelings.

DouglasG, you have to factor in these are MINNESOTANS. How are they going to speak directly to someone about some point of tension? Much less tactfully.

Maybe they could have written a pleasant anonymous note and mailed it. Win-win?

Jane are you insinuating that minny-hotans are passive aggressive?

nah never…

The letter would be adequately Minnesotan. However, I doubt the effect would be any different than what occurred. Adversarial relationships arise from not adequately confronting the problem. The actual issue in this case is nothing, and the conflict arose out of not talking to your neighbors.

I am reminded of the saying, “The best way to prevent your neighbors from calling the police for a loud party is to invite them.” Perhaps I’m too much of an Iowan…

The actual issue in this case is nothing, and the conflict arose out of not talking to your neighbors.

And you seriously don’t think the conflict would have arisen if they had taken their complaint directly to the neighbor?

I’m pretty certain I’ve read news reports about people that were assaulted or shot for complaining directly to a neighbor regarding noise.

And personally, I had a neighbor in the past that I knocked on his door at 3 AM to ask him to turn down his stereo. He turned it off, but 10 minutes later, it was back on twice as loud.

Neither of the Fogels look particularily physically imposing. I’d like to see a picture of the contractor for comparison.

I’m not saying they go up and say, “Hey jerkface, get rid of the trash!” I’m saying that they should have walked across the street, and asked, “What is happening neighbor?” In this situation, it was not noise, it was not a big 6 foot gorilla lawn ornament, it was construction material. A “what are you up to?” would have been a lot different than a “Stop what you’re doing.” If they would have voiced their concerns face to face rather than through local law enforcement, the situation would be different.

We don’t know that.

No we don’t.

However, in the example above, if you go to a neighbor and tell them to turn it down, and they turn it up, they shouldn’t be surprised if the cops show up.

If you go to a neighbor and express your concerns, and they are indifferent then there is nothing you can do. However, going immediately to the law will be most un-neighborly.

I am definitely too Iowan in this regard.

Personally, I don’t think I know enough to say that they should have gone to the neighbor first.

What kind of reputation did the guy have in the neighborhood before this started? Was he a known or suspected hot-head? Prone to verbal or physical outbursts? Given what he’s accused of doing afterward, that’s very possible.

What does this guy look like? Does he look like a professional wrestler, Marine drill Sargent or otherwise physically intimidating? Like I said, the Fogels don’t look very intimidating in the pictures, and they certainly look older.

I don’t have to stretch my imagination much to see circumstances that would make them feel safer dealing with the situation through the city.

Then again, maybe the Fogels really are just the pain in the ass busybody neighbors. (Consider though, that the article implies that most of the neighborhood seems to fall behind the Fogels.)

But, the thing that really interests me, is: How does a woman that owns a huge home in that neighborhood hook up with a guy that, the minute he moves out (or gets kicked out) is reduced to living in his van down by the river.

Really? Douglas? you think that if they had politely asked this bitch and her boyfriend to restrain from running a business out of their house the outcome would be different?

It’s called inheritance.

5 generations from Pauper to Prince to Pauper.

This conflict cries out for Obama!!!!

there’s got to be more to this story. I don’t doubt that there was a construction van at the neighboring property. But…doesn’t Jimmy Fogel sell every house on Lowry Hill? did he sell this woman her house? could there have been bad blood if she didn’t choose him as her realtor? is there a public sale record?

Yep, I don’t think the full story is as one-sided as folks here are speculating. From the article:

“In October, Wilcox told the Hennepin County courts that she was the one being harassed by her neighbor. Barbara Fogel admits that she did go over the line once, when she dumped garbage and debris around Groves’ van in frustration. The act earned her a ticket for littering.”

According to the WCCO article: The city inspectors also determined the homeowner wasn’t violating any regulations.

Thus, to me, it appears they called the cops on someone who was not doing anything illegal.

The approach of “Hi-De-ho neighborino!  What’s all this construction materials doing on your lawn?”  Comes off as a more neighborly than, “Hey meatwad get that crap off your lawn.  It makes the neighborhood look bad!”  It is the “neighborly” thing to do.  Give them a chance to explain, and air your concerns to them.

Coming in with the “They’re the crazy house on the block” attitude is going to have negative consequences.  Especially if they’re the crazy house on the block.

Further, if you don’t call the cops, they don’t shoot at your house with a BB gun.  It is that simple.  If they either minded their own business OR asked their neighbor what was with the 2by4’s and let it go, I believe that yes nothing would have happened.

They called the law on their neighbors, and did not expect them to get mad.  It is reasonable to assume that they wouldn’t throw stuff at your house, but sometimes when people get angry they do dumb stuff. 
If they did not upset the neighbor, they live peacefully.  It is pretty simple.

From reading the comments on Strib story, it looks like people are lining up behind one side or another based on their feelings about Mr. Fogel, Mr. Wilcox, Mr. Fogel’s choice of neckwear, realtors in general, whether or not Mr. Wilcox, (obviously a dashing outlaw type, maligned by events) is sleeping with Mrs. Fogel, who’s married to a nerd…the dirt is dished with relish.

Rat, you had me at Strib comments.

Further, if you don’t call the cops, they don’t shoot at your house with a BB gun. It is that simple.

Sorry, I don’t buy that. Here are a couple of examples of what can happen.

Sometimes, Douglas, people have a such a sense of entitlement to their “property rights” that even reasonable requests, inquiries. or actions can set them off (look at maz deflating the tires of cars legally parked on the street in front of his house).

The city did finally plow the sidewalk in front of that house that I complained about oh so many weeks ago. Looks nice right down to the concrete.

Dealing with loud drunk people is a different situation than confronting a neighbor for bringing down property values. Dealing with drunks should be handled by the pros. Further, it is difficult to be tactful at 3AM with a 6AM meeting and no sleep to that point.

The situations are different. I stick by my assertion that if you don’t piss them off, they don’t shoot at your windows. It would take some tact. It would take some rehearsal to what you would say. But the default should not be to call the authorities if someone has a pink flamingo on their lawn. Have your reasons. Have your points well thought out. Go in with a positive attitude that a solution can be reached. None of this can happen with a drunk at 3AM or with Maz. But, in most cases it is possible — even in Minnesota.

OK, I’m just going to refer to you as Dr. Pangloss form now on.

I don’t think we know enough of the history of the neighbors’ past interactions prior to this, or enough about the contractor guy to jump right to a criticism for going through the city here.

Leibniz is a hero of mine…

Both parties are to blame here. They have both decided for right or wrong that the other party is at fault, and nothing the other can do to fix the problem.

If you cannot live with your neighbors, then you have to move. Thus, you should do your best to get along with them in some fashion.

I’ll shovel my sidewalk to the concrete as soon as the city does the same with the street. Until then, enjoy the ice muthafathas!