Secrets of the City

I understand if you have a large family you might want to save the cash but otherwise, the five dollars I spent on Metro Transit was well worth it. Eat one less thing if you have to. It was pretty great.

But, but, but, the free market solve all.

I am pretty frickin amazed that they can get away with running non-accessible buses. That’s inexcusable, and I hope that complaints are lodged with the appropriate agencies and appropriate fines levied.

The one time I’ve gone to the fair since I’ve lived here (about 3 years ago) we parked at Northtown, and rode the bus from there. No problems.

I’ll add this: I can’t see it improving much next year, since I can’s see a private carrier investing the capital needed to switch from the coach buses like they need to for a 12 day gig.

Maybe if they subcontracted to Metro transit. But that has it’s own problems.

I have been riding the park and ride from the U of M all week. You can tell the bus drivers are noobies at the route. I think they took out a no parking sign by the UM 4th Street Ramp. My wife has had to wait a while for the bus a few times. My brother had a driver that got lost on the way to the fair and took quite a while to get back on track. No complaints about the buses from here though. It’s nice that they can store the strollers underneath. It’s no good to have handicap inaccessable, they need to figure that out ASAP.

Why can’t they get school buses to do it like they do for golf tournaments? It’s not like school has started yet.

We had a coach bus. Broadway East-West run. The driver was cheerful and chatty. It was a bit of a wait on the return, but no real hardship.

When we went last year getting to the fair via bus was no problem. It was getting back. The lines were at least an hour long and confusion reigned on where to stand. We said screw it and walked back to the U where our car was parked.

This year we are biking it.

The express bus service from the major malls — the $5 fare buses Bixby rode to the Fair — are still operated by Metro Transit. For the most part, my trip to and from the Fair went smoothly, although there was much more congestion on Como Avenue than I had remembered from previously years.

On the way back, we were delayed a bit when the wheelchair ramp would not fully return to its slot, makinging it imposible to close the door. After a supervisor toyed with it a few minutes, it closed and we were on our way.

Yep, it was Metro Transit and, as long as I go to the fair, I’ll continue to pay the $5 to get there. Sure, it was a little crowded on the bus there but nice and relaxing on the way home. No lines. Got to Dunwoody minutes after getting on the bus.

We waited in a line to leave the fair for 45 minutes with no bus in sight. All we wanted to do was get the 2.4 miles down snelling to the 94 lot. It was horrible.

But, but, but, the free market solve all.

ALL INVISIBLE HANDS ON DECK!

kwatt- you realize school has started right? Haven’t you noticed all the school buses in your ‘hood?

The bus we took was a very nice coach bus, but I felt very cramped. I’m so used to the MetroTransit buses I was just sort of weirded out by how stuffy it seemed. There were no bike racks on the front. It wasn’t accessible. There would be no place to let a helper dog ride without taking up two seats or having the dog in the aisle. And it took FOREVER to get people on and off since there is no back door.

We also noticed there was NO signage at the lot we were at (the U) so people didn’t know where to wait for the bus.

Most schools haven’t yet started. Isn’t there a state law now that forbids most pre-Labor Day school starts? (Minneapolis is, apparently, exempt or something.)

Why can’t they get school buses to do it like they do for golf tournaments? It’s not like school has started yet.

Clearly, the Free Market has screwed up a job a government agency did well for many years. Kinda like guarding the US Embasy in Kabul, although I didn’t hear of any contract bus drivers drinking vodka off each other’s butts.

What have they “screwed up,” Bob?

nood’s right. Law prevents schools from starting before Labor Day. Minneapolis and Hopkins (and some out state districts) got waivers for this year because they have >$400,000 in school construction planned for next summer.

Early start this fall allows early finish in the spring, which will allow construction to be completed in time for next fall.

St. Louis Park schools are in session too, I know, and I think other suburbs. I thought most of the metro started school already.

Didn’t you RTFA rat? Or cj’s post?

Where did they screw up?
1. handicap inaccessible buses.
2. Insufficient carrying capacity.
3. longer waits.

That’s the starters.

Fair attendance is up by about 10 percent.

This is the first year this outfit has done this.

Why you have such an attitude, mnblrmkr?

I will say this is the first time I have ever agreed with the majority of Strib commenters.

I’m sure from the private bus companies perspective they haven’t screwed up at all. Fewer buses and drivers means more profits. God forbid we skip the profits and just pay for the service through metro transit and have enough capacity to do the job.

Rat, even with attendence up, MT would have been able to deal with it. Unlike these small private providers, MT can call on thousands of employees and buses to be where the demand is greatest. They can rearrange where to put their resources based on current conditions.

I’ve also haven’t noticed a published notice of how often buses come at each stop. I believe MT used to do that so you knew how long you could expect to wait.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with waiting until the whole thing is over before writing off this venture as a failure. Maybe some adjustments are being made and it’s smoother over Labor Day.

I believe the law is September 1st and not labor day…

@kc!: St. Paul schools don’t start til after Labor Day.

Why you have such an attitude, mnblrmkr?

Their utter lack of cinsideration for accessibility issues is a big part of it. I still can’t believe that a bid that didn’t address that issue was allowed to be accepted.

The other is that, they had a provider that knew how to do the job, and did it well. But, because of some free market ideologues (and some lobbying money) in the previous administration, that outfit was prohibited form bidding to provide that service anymore.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with waiting until the whole thing is over before writing off this venture as a failure. Maybe some adjustments are being made and it’s smoother over Labor Day.

So, for all the people that attended ther first 10 days or so, I guess the appropriate response is “sucks to be you.”

How many returning customers did they turn off in that time span?

Douglas, nope. It’s Labor Day.

“So, for all the people that attended ther first 10 days or so, I guess the appropriate response is “sucks to be you.”‘

No. I don’t know that everyone had a bad experience, or even most people. Evidently, there has been some complaints, and there will probably be some more. Adjustments will be made, and it will be different next time.

That’s how it works. I don’t see this as some grand ideological debate. It’s bus service. Like anything else it’s little tricky at times.

“Like anything else it’s little tricky at times.”

Actually, it wasn’t tricky, it was smooth for years before the rules were changed, based on ideology, to favor private companies. Did you read the article?

@— Yes, I did.

That reminds me, my class at the U starts next week. Cross your fingers for me, internet people, b/c the class is full and the waitlist is closed, but after discussing with the perfessor, I’m just going to show up and hope everyone waiting ahead of me does not. Incredibly, this method has never failed for me.

Actually, rat, the rule changes were a result of ideological debate.

The private carriers were claiming that public entities were competing against private business to provide a service, and they felt that was unfair and wrong.

Never mind that they weren’t equipped to provide this type of service (and as I said, I don’t expect them to invest in the necessary equipment for a once a year, 12 day gig. the economics for that don’t make sense).

So, we went from a system that worked smoothly and well, provided access to everyone, to one that well, doesn’t.

I’m not going to the fair this year, but a coworker was complaining yesterday about the driver he had. Apparently the person drove like mad and got lost.

Are school buses handicap accessible?

Are school buses handicap accessible?

Just the short ones, I believe. Maybe some of the newer ones are, but I don’t think so.

So Kwatt’s suggestion wouldn’t adress that issue.

whatcha studyin Jane?

I can’t imagine going back to school, I still have that nightmare once every couple of months that I forgot to take a final or drop a class and I didn’t really graduate.

That means you have deep-seated fears of being unprepared.

I just take fun classes ryanl. As a U graduate, they make it easy to come back for a class (they’ll shamelessly take anyone’s money, I guess). Grad school… shudder. No thanks. In the past few years I’ve studied Japanese, Asian calligraphy painting, frame-making (picture frames) at the U. I’m the annoying older student who does all her homework in advance!

Yeah thanks for the dime store dream interpretation.

I figure since I have one where I am flying about as often…I don’t take them to seriously.

Curve setter!

homework?

yikes…don’t touch the stuff.

I’d like to take a U class. How do you sign up if you aren’t enrolled?

I should probably stick to Community Ed classes this fall, but maybe this spring I will take a U class. I think I’m going to take hooping this fall though. And sewing.

speaking of buses an transport to and from the fair. Thats one of my least favorite aspects of the fair.

Will cabbies pick up/drop off at the fair for regular fare?

You don’t work for the Lorenz Bus Company, by chance? Because that chop shop is totally unprepared. Driving on the sidewalks, running over people in wheelchairs. People standing in bare parking lots in the blazing heat, their State Fair ice cream melting in their hands….

Bitch, bitch, bitch. Apparently we have now evolved to the point where we expect everything to work absolutely perfectly — flawlessly, without fail — from Day One.

Will cabbies pick up/drop off at the fair for regular fare?

I think they have to … by law. Given the fare structure, though, you’ll probably save money parking yourself across the street for $15.

Bitch, bitch, bitch. Apparently we have now evolved to the point where we expect everything to work absolutely perfectly — flawlessly, without fail — from Day One.

Nood, my point is they had a system that was working, and working well, and provided access to almost everyone.

That provider is no longer allowed to even bid for the job. Not because private operators were able to make offer a bid, or promise better service, but because an ideological position overruled the evidence of a well working system.

Not to mention that MetroTransit pays a higher wage and has to pay overtime for much of the work, probably levels the field of private vs. public.

I can guarantee that the wheels on the bus, infact do go round and round. Even in autotune.

And for the record: My reaction would be the same if the positions of private carriers and MetroTransit were reversed in this situation.

Nood, my point is they had a system that was working, and working well, and provided access to almost everyone.

I wasn’t directing my comment at you, mnblrmkr, and I do agree with you. If it ain’t broke, why fix it? I’m just tired of people bitchin’ about other things, too, like the “failure” of Cash For Clunkers, or why Obama hasn’t gotten us out of Iraq already “like he promised to do during the election.” The dumbing-down of America continues on its merry way because of ideological divisiveness.

/end rant

Btw, I don’t recall reading anything in either paper, or seeing anything on any of the local TV newscasts, prior to the opening of the Fair, that there had been any change in the mass transit arrangement.

It is a bit confusing, because the metrotransit site maps list both the free park and ride shuhttles that they DON’T run, and the pay express routes that they do.

I had forgotten about the change, but when I read about it, I did remember seeing some info about the pending Federal regulation.

Btw, I don’t recall reading anything in either paper, or seeing anything on any of the local TV newscasts, prior to the opening of the Fair, that there had been any change in the mass transit arrangement.

Well, there should have been no reason to mention it. If everything was going smoothly- and there was no reason for anyone not intimately involved with the process to think it wouldn’t- most people would probably never have noticed.

Paul is that you singing the autotuned wheels on the bus?

pretty solid.

Well, there should have been no reason to mention it. If everything was going smoothly- and there was no reason for anyone not intimately involved with the process to think it wouldn’t- most people would probably never have noticed.

I think I might have noticed this year that, instead of an MCTA bus at my pick-up point, there was a Lorenzo, etc. and would’ve wondered if I’d made a mistake. The confusion would be similar if I had been commuting all these years with MCTA to wake up one morning to find out not only had the bus company changed but that the bus itself was not what I was expecting.

MetroTransit puts other carriers stuff on their website all the time and I can’t figure out why. All those SouthWest Transit buses are NOT MetroTransit, though MT lists their times and stops on their site. MT has to compete with them for the routes and when they lose them, they have to promote the guy they lost to. It is obscene. No other industry is like that.

Nood, I think you would have noticed, but given the number of people who get on my bus and then ask what bus they’re on, I think if a bus showed up, most people would think “Oh, a bus” and get on. I kind of wish I could put 666 EXPRESS HELL VIA DES MOINES on my overhead sign and see how many people would actually say something.

@ kc!: All those carriers get money from and work with the Met Council.

@cjc I know, but why does MetroTransit have to help them if they have to compete with them? Let the Met Council (which I realize is the same thing sort of) do all the schedules and promotion for the other bus companies.

And these random State Fair shuttle buses don’t, so why is MT promoting them?

@kc! cooperation?

I would love it if I was waiting for a bus and the Partridge family bus picked me up and took me to work.

K. Going away.

Oh, but first. Didn’t MN schools originally start after Labor Day because of farming? And now they start after Labor Day because of tourism? I think in the last legislative session they tried to get this changed to earlier starts, but didn’t pass.

K. Now really going away.

kc, it helps create a cohesive transit system. Someone MIGHT take a Southwest bus downtown, and then transfer to a MetroTransit bus to St Paul, say. Much easier for them to figure out schedules and timing if it’s all in one place.

Took bus on Sunday from U of M. It was an unqualified disaster.

The four of us, who all generally try to avoid the gross human interactions that take place on mass-transit, had to wait in line for 20 minutes to get there, and had to wait in line for one hour to get back.

I’ll be paying to park next year.

I would love it if I was waiting for a bus and the Partridge family bus picked me up and took me to work.

Me, the Girls Gone Wild Bus. Or the Cowboy Junkies tour bus. Either one.

mnblrmkr: Why couldn’t it be both? I don’t think it would be greedy to want both.

I have an irrational fear of public buses – and sharks.

Me, the Girls Gone Wild Bus. Or the Cowboy Junkies tour bus. Either one.

My choice (if I had one): Ken Kesey & the Merry Pranksters. Neal Cassady driving, of course. I wouldn’t even need to step foot on the Fairgrounds for a thrill ride. It would be its own self-contained Space Tower, too.

I have an irrational fear of public buses – and sharks.

In that order?

mnblrmkr- I know why they do it, but it seems counterproductive for MT to support their competitors. Especially in the case of the State Fair buses.

Fear of sharks is rational.

KC! if you want to take a class at the U, just call them, 625.5000, and ask for CLA advising. If you really want to take a class, they will figure out a way to help take your money.

Or just write an email directly to Dougnuts or Kurtis. They run that place.

I have an irrational fear of public buses – and sharks.

In that order?
No:

1.Sharks.
2.Public buses.
3. MNspeak events.
4. My car’s not really locked after hitting the lock button twice. It takes 3x. Everyone knows this.
5. Falling off a chair lift.

@kc! – Actually it would be through the . (Kurtis runs this place, not me.)

That was screwy! CCE would be who you would take classes from not CLA.

Yeah, it’s me singing.

I guarantee that if you gave Lorenz bus company the ability to run multi-million dollar deficits annually and operate without regard to that damn pesky bit about revenues covering expenses, they could provide a pretty good shuttle service to the state fair, too.

So it takes longer, big wup. Waits for buses at the PGA easily stretched past an hour at peak times. Plan accordingly, or pay the premium and drive.

Well, that is the point. When you don’t REQUIRE in the rules that private companies get the business, things can work better without throwing in a profit on top. Nobody ever said Metro Transit makes a profit, and why should it? It’s a public good. The public pays for the roads, the public should have quality public transportation. In the scheme of things, yes, it takes longer big wup. But what about the lack of accessibility? And really, why change the rule in the first place. So some private bus companies don’t get to make a profit while reducing the quality of bus service to the fair, big wup?

“The public pays for the roads, the public should have quality public transportation.”

Absolutely!  amen to that!

Just like:

Medical Coverage
Right to own property
A brand new car
Designer clothes (because they’re quality)
No smaller than a 42″ LCD TV
Broadband internet
Cable TV

If they can’t make a profit, there’s no reason for them to take the job.

A little common sense goes a long way.

Well, —, this was a country that valued not turning to the government as the answer for everything. But I guess now we can’t even be bothered to wait in line for a bus to go stuff our faces with crappy food.

No one said government is the answer for everything, you and Glenn Beck sure know how to make a scarecrow. The problem with the rule change-it’s based on some kind of ideology that private is always best. And we’re seeing that it’s not. We had 8 years of ideologically based government and this rule change is just part of it, and now how about we focus on what actually works and is practical, even if that means a role for government.

Of course, you must realize that the vast vast majority of our economy is private non-government. So this attitude like now everything is being taken over by obama-socialifacists is a bit overly dramatic.

taulpaul-if you want to lump medicare in with TVs that’s fine with me, now why don’t you go tweet about autotune or bacon or whatever the latest hipster web thing is.

The rule change is based on the belief that a private, self-sustaining business should not be put at a competitive disadvantage by having to compete with a provider of the same service that has to play by no common rules of business because it is routinely and profusely subsidized by taxpayers, not that private is always best. But I wouldn’t expect your simple mind to understand the nuanced difference.

Yes, so based on this “belief”, we can replace an adequate though subsidized service for the 12 days of the fair, with an inadequate though profitable (for the company’s owner) service.

I think that’s not practical, republicans don’t care whether it’s practical as long as it’s ideologically pure. But, hey, throw in an insult and you’ve got the GOP playbook down pat.

kwatt, metrotransit doesn’t operate at multi-million dollar deficits. If you haven’t noticed they’ve jacked fees up, cut routes, and held the lines on salaries because of those revenue shortfalls.

no was metro transit making it’s bid below market rates. They were only breaking even. As kc and cj noted, metrotransit likely has higher payscales, and paid it’s drivers ot during the service.

The Metropolitan Council’s regional transit system faces a $62.3 million budget deficit next biennium, leaving it roughly eight percent short, according to newly released estimates. That’s a $17 million deficit increase since a November estimate.

http://www.tcdailyplanet.net/article/2009/03/05/riding-bus-worrying-about-transit-deficit-fare-hikes.html

I beg to differ.

But that deficit will have to be closed.

The article says, that even with fare hikes and cost cutting measures, they’re going to come up well short. So how are they going to close the deficit?

Don’t know. But I’m pretty sure that they legally cannot operate at a deficit.

This year, paul, they closed the deficit by raiding highway maintenance accounts and transfering the money to Metro Transit. Must be nice. But really that’s not a competitive advantage. Right.

Which part of “inferior service” do you still not understand, Kwatt?

And you will notice that my first complaint about service is accessibility, not waiting in line, to which you so dismissively reduce the problem.

Also: Presumably, this ended up costing the fair more, since according to the unfair competition argument, the only reason Lorenz wasn’t getting the contract was because MetroTrnasit was submitting a bid that they couldn’t match. It’s unlikely that the elimination of competing bids by administrative fiat would lead to Lorenz REDUCING its bid.

What part of “competitive disadvantage” do you not understand. When you measure a non-subsidized service provider against one that is allowed to operate with no regard to the basic tenents of business, it’s likely the subsidized provider will to a “better” job.

As far as accessibility, there are many ways to get to the fair besides taking the bus. I sympathize with Lorenz when they note that they don’t get a massive subsidy to buy more expensive buses with lifts, but if I ran a business (there’s a thought) I would not want to have to turn away potential customers.

kwatt, if MetroTransit’s provision of shuttle services to the state fair were contributing to their operating deficits’ you wouldn’t be letting us hear the end of it.

As it is, MetroTransit said they about broke even/slightly ahead with the service.

And what’s with the scare quotes around better? From the reports, it seems clear that by any objective measure, MetroTransit DID outperform the private carriers.

As for other ways to get to the fair: I guess people that can’t utilize the non-asccessible private carrier buses can now be forced to deal with the heavy traffic near the fair grounds, AND be forced to pay for parking on the grounds, instead of being able to utilize the shuttle services.

Frankly, I don’t have much sympathy for Lorenz. If they want to provide a public service like this, suck it up and meet ADA requirements. I’m surprised the Fair was allowed to accept bids that didn’t include accessiblity.

Kwatt’s and the GOP’s concern is maximizing private profits. Quality of service don’t count for nothin’