Secrets of the City

I’ve learned not to second guess the legislative process. We will make our points, the opposition will make theirs, and we will let the debate play out in public.

A few things to consider, first. This is not, as some have wrongly characterized it, a “blue or red” issue, a point I made some time ago on this post, “Are smoking bans liberal?”

This is a public health issue. It is also an issue of fairness. Why are office and retail workers in Minneosta protected by state law from secondhand smoke on the job, while waitresses and bartenders are not?

Here, at last, is the “level playing field” many have called for. We already know that the claims of “economic ruin” many opponents raised before the local ordinances began just isn’t true.

I hope the author of this article is right, and a comprehensive statewide law passes this session. Minnesotans clearly want it.

Pawlenty was more Republican when Rex was here.

I don’t even like smoking indoors anyway. It just feels weird.

Whenever I visit a town that doesn’t have a smoking ban, and I visit a bar, I remember why I used to not go to bars.

There’s a blog called “Residual Forces”??? Good lord….

I went to lovely Iowa City to see the Hold Steady last Thursday. I sort of forgot that there are not smoking bans everywhere and when I walked into the resturant where we were eating dinner and the smoke was a little overwhelming. At the club the smoke was fierce and my jacket still smells like smoke 4 days later. I don’t miss the blazing headaches the second hand smoke causes.

Three-pack-a-day’er here. Can’t even begin to imagine staying in a bar in which I can’t smoke. The best bars have such a thick smoke haze you can hang your coat on it.

That said, I’m amazed that we’ve let people smoke in public buildings this long. You can’t bring in and spill gasoline all over a bar. You can’t leave a dead fish in your coat pocket at a bar. You can’t flit around spraying parathion in a bar. You can’t light firecrackers or smokebombs in a bar. Migawd, we even ground airplanes in which people have been farting heavily! We’ve made a ton of societal rules governing what we can and can’t do in public places, and many of those rules have less rational basis than a no-smoking rule.

Is this just so visceral of a loss to smokers that it’s another thing entirely? At some point, the cowboys had to quit bringing their six-shooters into the bars out west, and I’m thinking they probably protested more quietly than do we smokers about this ban.

Face it. It’s coming, and soon. I mean, c’mon, this is Minnesota!

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“Why are office and retail workers in Minneosta protected by state law from secondhand smoke on the job, while waitresses and bartenders are not?“

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Sorry, missed this.

Waitresses and bartenders are worth less, inherently, than office and retail workers.

(C’mon, obvious answer. Ask a hard one.)

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i have actually stopped smoking inside altogether since the ban in minneapolis. there are a few occasions, but it always feels odd. i can understand a smoking ban because of public health. the impact on smaller rural areas might be interesting, or might have no impact at all.

i’m not all about the argument that you can’t tell a business what they can and can’t do, but it’s an interesting one at best.

I think laws like this are the dark side of liberalism. An angry, nasty side that needs to confronted with open eyes. That someone should exclude a segment of the population (smokers) — herd them into close quarters — is wrong is such an obvious way I don’t know why people can’t see it.

I don’t smoke, never started. Had a father who died of emphysema.

He didn’t blame Big Tobacco.

There you go, Rat, trying to politicize a topic that our own bobby_b sees a little more clearly with his sharp legal eye.

Once again, read my post “Are smoking bans liberal?” The answer, Rat, is “no.” They are not conservative, either. They just make sense!

I’m sorry about your dad. I’m sorry my mom (who still smokes) had a stroke. I’m sorry my little sister Carla (a smoker) died of cancer more than 10 years ago. I’m sorry for all of us who will lose loved ones too early because of smoking. I’m sorry I ever started smoking in the first place, and was not as smart as you where. You see part of the picture, but not the important parts.

Bobby is right. It’s time. After all, this is Minnesota!

alamn, this is most definitely a “red or blue” issue. I think if you were to look historically at health issues that would be hard to deny.

That said, I kinda abandon my usual liberalism on this one. After a lot of consideration, I’ve decided I support it, but only because of the health of the workers, not the patrons. I’m damn near a socialist, but if we’re going to have capitalism, might as well let it do its job some of the time – otherwise, let’s just switch. Part of me still believes in the right to be a moron.

There are lots of things that “just make sense” on the surface that deny the basic principles on which we operate. Do smoking bans save lives? Sure, but to what extend do we really want to go down the slipperly slope of telling people what to do? I’m ok with taxing the hell out of them to recoup health care costs, I’m even ok with banning smoking in bars and restaruants to protect the health of workers. I’m all about exposing and fining cigarette companies for being the lying assholes they’ve been for 50 years. But I wouldn’t say that this is a “common sense” issue any more than it’s a “common sense” issue for us to racially profile middle eastern looking people in airports. The ends don’t justify the means. For me, being able to make the choice to smoke (one I certainly have not made) is kinda like being able to make the choice to kill myself in some faster way. Why should you be able to stop me?

“…Part of me still believes in the right to be a moron”

That’s the part of you that just posted your comment tonight. You have other parts — start using them! Andy at “Residual Forces” may disagree, but being a liberal doesn’t mean being a moron. Or being a conservative, either. I have friends on both side of the political spectrum who agree that it’s time to go smokefree.

Bobby_b, with his tongue-in-check comments, really nailed it. It IS about worker health. It IS about fairness. And it IS about time.

Tell that to service workers losing income from this job. A job they took VOLUNTARILY.

But that’s not stopping the neo-Puritans. If they were alive in Shakespeare’s day, they would be the ones who closed down the theaters.

Same people

I still like the idea that clubs should not be allowed to play music over 100db because it can deafen the poor bartenders and waitresses.

And the same lame recycled comment (look it up, MNspeakers!). Really Rat, you need some fresh material. Try borrowing some from Shakespeare. “..the Rat does protest too much, me thinks!”

Speaking of theater, I saw Twelve Angry Men at the State Theater on Sunday. It was really good. Yes, it had “Norm” from Cheers and “John Boy” from The Waltons. And yes, it was very good.

Jeff, you should see it. Lots of very relevent stuff in there. On-stage smoking, too. It’s a period piece play — it would look weird if you gathered 12 guys in the 1950s and at least a few didn’t smoke. Today, about half the number of adult Minnesotans smoke. We can do better. A statewide law will help.

The world would be better if there weren’t any smokers. If course, it would also be better if there weren’t any republicans but we can’t always get our way. There’s a line somewhere on how much you can screw with people, that’s all I’m saying.

bob, i still hate you.

please, dear lord, make this the last smoking ban post on mnspeak.

and if there is another, i encourage all mnspeakers to “Just Say No” to alamn Bob. This is his job. This ass gets paid to piss all over the blogospere.

Do not engage him in conversation and maybe someone at alamn will reassign him to filing or something.

I don’t even like smoking indoors anyway. It just feels weird.

That is true. I love smoking with a couple of beers, but I was in Dakota County this weekend and it felt just strange to smoke inside.

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I think laws like this are the dark side of liberalism. An angry, nasty side that needs to confronted with open eyes. That someone should exclude a segment of the population (smokers) — herd them into close quarters — is wrong is such an obvious way I don’t know why people can’t see it.

It’s the Killing Fields of Cambodia all over again. Now I know what people on the Bataan Death March or Jim Crow South felt like.

Rat must be off his meds.

As a former smoker I have to say that I could give a fuck if people smoke…but I do care if you are poluting MY AIR..in public. This is a no-brainer and has NOTHING to do with FREEDOM or OPPRESSION.

Smoke ‘em if you got ‘em…at home, outside, in private clubs…but you have ZERO right to violate my air space. Sorry.

I’m sure MANY of you would like to masterbate in public as well…but alas, there are pesky laws that prohibit certain behaviors in pubic.

So…get over it, Smokey. And keep your hands where I can see ‘em.

Once again, read my post “Are smoking bans liberal?” The answer, Rat, is “no.”

Well, that’s good enough for me.

Honestly, though, paid, agenda-driven bloggers are a drag. But so is smoking indoors. And when something like half of the Twin Cities smokers who were formerly up in arms about the ban find themselves acknowledging a year-and-a-half later that, “You know, this isn’t too bad,” then it’s time to throw in the towel and admit that the times they are a’changin’. Anyway, we should all be saving our vitriol for the impending trans-fat battle.

Merry Christmas to you, too, Russ. And to all, a good night!

raindog:

Nothing more insufferably self-righteous about smoking than an ex-smoker.

First off, you don’t own the air. If you want to be free of quotidian inconveniences that come from living around people, I suggest you lock your door and hide under the bed.

If secondhand smoke causes you to curse and scurry about and talk nonsense like this. I can’t imagine the number of invisble fears that have you in their grip.

straight males, for one.

I appreciate the state legislature telling me what’s good for me when I choose to go out drinking. I’d hate for my lungs to breathe in smoke while I destroy my liver with alcohol. It ain’t right.

I look forward to their decrees about what I should eat and when they will make me go to bed. It’s for my own good.

Heh. Save some thanks for Carlton, Lake and St. Louis counties in NE Minnesota, while you’re at it, Adam.

Bob’s smugness hangs in the air like smoke.

adamG, you mean like how new york banned trans fats?

I think trans fats in New York is just the beginning.

as legally and constitutionally bankrupt as a smoking ban would be, I like the idea. I hate smoky bars.

Er, legally and constitutionally bankrupt? Every legal challenge to clean indoor air ordinances at the county and city level has failed.

as legally and constitutionally bankrupt as a smoking ban would be, I like the idea. I hate smoky bars.

Wow. Now that’s caving in on your principles. At least put “legally and constitutionally bankrupt” and “I like the idea” in a separate sentence.

Name one thing illegal about it.

Rat = Pro-cancer

and in public You have no right to polute the air..what’s next? Angry you can’t take a wiz on my caeser salad? After all, I don’t own all the lettuce.

Talk about a lame argument for you pro-cancer people!

Now I won’t have anyplace to get shisha beside my home.

I’d like to know the percentage of wait staff & bartenders who smoke. I waited tables for eight years, and three out of four co-workers were on the nails.

Run, raindog. Run for your life!

Tobacco smoke!

One whiff and you could be dead of a heart attack. Dead like a stick. That’s what that radio commercial said.

Honestly, James, I think that fact has more to do with bars’ opposition to the smoking ban than anything else.

Rat I feel sorry for you. You obviously live your entire life in a state of denial.

I would further suggest that while you deny it, that you too are a smoker.

Smokers thrive on denial. I know. I have been there. But once the smoke clears you realize that you have been fighting for the wrong side.

I hope you get some counseling Rat. I am sincere about this.

I think it’s silly to frame this as a Worker Protection argument. It gives the Alcohol & Tobacco Lobbies too much traction.

I think it’s much more common sense.

No one is Outlawing Smoking.

Just take that shit out of my face.

Simple.

Common sense.

Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

In order to deny it, I would first have to be accused of it. I don’t consider such things accusations. If I smoked I wouldn’t be ashamed of it.

To call me a liar, is sad raindog. And you ought to be ashamed. If you had a sense of shame.

I agree with Raindog. Actually, I often agree with raindog, but the fact makes me worry that I may be crazy.

“I’d like to know the percentage of wait staff & bartenders who smoke. I waited tables for eight years, and three out of four co-workers were on the nails. “

James is right — there are a lot of hospitality industry workers who smoke. I was smoking when I was working bars and restaurants, too.

Have you ever tried to quit when every else around you is smoking? Perhaps you don’t believe smoking bans help people quit?

Ask Lexington, KY

At the risk of being accused of sounding “smug,” the Carlton County ordinance just was approved on its first reading.

i would SO take a whiz on raindog’s caeser salad.

c’mon people

Going to the bathroom is absolutely necessary, but you don’t have the right to do it in public. Smoking is absolutely elective. The public has a right to not live in a sewer, be it on the ground, or in the air.

I don’t know if I can get frisky with raindog anymore because I smoke =(

this may be a negative outlook on the future, and i’m not using this as an argument against a smoking ban at all, but don’t you think there are more deadly things that are going to harm or kill you quicker than second hand smoking will in the sometime near future? say, car pollutants or other lung harming devices that are forcibly breathed?
like i said before. i am a smoker that hasn’t had an issue with the ban (since every bar has a patio to go out to). it just seems there are more things to worry about. (i.e. gay marriage)..totally kidding.

car pollutants or other lung harming devices that are forcibly breathed?

Right…and there are or once were regulations about these things. I don’t mean dirty, er, Clear Skies, either. Go, Cali, you’re my hero.

But ahem, y’all were discussing smoking bans.

To the smoker who politely (this is Minnesota, after all!) suggests to the communications director of the American Lung Association of Minnesota that we look for “the real killer,” aka “car pollutants,” might I suggest that denial isn’t just a river in Eygpt. Tobacco smoke, both first and secondhand, is the leading cause of preventable death and illness in the USA. This has been proven a dozen times over. We are not just talking cancer here folks, but heart disease, stroke and COPD (the particularly nasty lung disease that took the life of Rat’s dad, and millions others).

Not to worry, lowkeyd, we at ALAMN are all over that “car pollutants” thing — see http://www.CleanAirChoice.org. Today Gov. T-Paw announced his plan to increase the number of E85 stations in MN from 300 to 1,800 in four years. We’ll do our part to make it happen.

i guess the point of now versus 5 years from now is missed.

i can also understand that Tobacco smoke, both first and secondhand, is the leading cause of preventable death and illness in the USA. but have a hard time believing sometimes that none of these are also related to a mix of things including diabetes, obesity, hereditary illnesses, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, other related conditions/illnesses, and/or other circumstances. Which most of is preventable to an extent.

i don’t necessarily believe all things i have said in above paragraph, but speculations do come to mind with some things.

Hey Champs:

Do you know Quiz Kid Donny Smith?????

ALAMN Bob confused. Does not understand oblique William H. Masey reference, or how that applies to champs or this thread.

ALAMN Bob tells Statehouse Santa what he wants for Christmas.

Well, the House is getting ready to vote on the Freedom To Breathe Act of 2007. We should have an answer soon.

Here’s a trick, if you don’t like the smoke, stay the hell out of the bars, poolhalls, bowling alleys and restaraunts where smoking is allowed. Simple. You have that right, just like I have the right to smoke after my dinner, or between beers.

At least I work in one of the last holdout areas in MN that won’t be subject to the collectivist “is it goot for zee *state*, komrade?” mentality… now if they’d only change their policy on lawful carry by employees.