Secrets of the City

“They were terrorists” hardly seems like a fair summary of KK’s column.

Yeah, a better title would have been “Violation of Imam’s rights completely justified as they had loose guilt-by-association ties to groups that have loose guilt-by-association ties to individuals who have supported groups whose members have supported terrorism.”

By this standard, anyone who has ever contributed to an Irish-American organization can be pulled off an airplane because, dig deep enough and cast your net wide enough, you’ll find a link to the IRA.

It’s starting to look more and more like the imams were staging some kind of stunt to push the envelope with US Airways. If that’s the case, they deserved whatever hassle they got, and maybe more.

It’s starting to look more and more like the imams were staging some kind of stunt to push the envelope with US Airways.

Why? Has new evidence come out?

Just because Kersten’s challenged by the concept of syllogism does not mean the Imams were not trying to cause an incident, Max.

True, but I haven’t seen any real evidence that they were trying to cause an incident. I mean, the seat belt thing is weird, but their explaination that they spread out on the airplane so as to not attract undue attention, which they suspected would happen if they all sat together, makes sense.

And I love how the fact that later on in the flight, the fact that the seat belt extender was on the ground is used as evidence that they didn’t need it. Er, a lot of people take their seatbelts off when the airplane has stabilized.

Off topic….just curious, for aging hipsters, do they make ‘white belt extenders?”

Since I started puting on weight, I’ve been needing a white belt extender.

Why does the image of a 250-pound, 60-year-old guy armed with a seat belt extender NOT frighten me? Am I being complacent?

I would say the imams probably were trying to push the envelope, though I’m still not sure I agree with how it was handled. Perhaps the point they were trying to make was … well, made? Max already summed up what I would have said about the KK article, though.

I’ve never worn a white belt, though.

I smell a patent.

allahboard! best mnspeak name ever.

I suspect all the joke name posts are by one person, and I sometimes worry that he or she doesn’t get the respect owed to his or her snarky genius.

actually, those aren’t my posts.

Zimmern has 95% of the Twin Cities dining scene pegged with…

Innovate or perish is the buzz phrase in some restaurant towns. Not here, where you fill 200 seats by appealing to a broad section of public taste with sophisticated décor and far less edgy fare. If The Cheesecake Factory can do it, cant we? Or so the thinking goes.’

no there are definitely more than one of us

“but I haven’t seen any real evidence that they were trying to cause an incident. I mean, the seat belt thing is weird, but their explaination that they spread out on the airplane so as to not attract undue attention, which they suspected would happen if they all sat together, makes sense.”

Way to give them a highly undeserved (given the emerging facts) benefit of the doubt.
I said it before and I’ll say it again – the people on that plane had EVERY right to be concerned and worried, no matter what armchair philosopher bloggers say.

Which emerging facts, Diz?

I would not belive a word that skeezy KK says.

Who knows where those shriveled lips have been?

(Shudder)

What you are seeing here from KK, Dizzy et. al. is RASCISM.

Plain and simple.

They will not rest until their paranoid, hateful dreams are realized.

Sad and pathetic.

Um…I meant RACISM!!!!

Thank you!

I’m a liberal who strongly dislikes Katherine Kersten, but if I was on that plane, I would’ve wanted the imams kicked off, too. If you act like a dick on a plane, you should be expecting to get the boot. If you don’t like it, rent a car.

Again, I’m confused about precisely what these imams did that made them dicks. Let’s see: Didn’t sit together, reportedly said the word “Allah” when boarding, discussed Saddam Hussein, requested a seat belt extender. None of this seems especially dickish.

I must be missing something.

I like “Rascism” better – fascist meets racist.

I’m not agreeing that the word applies to me, however.
But it does apply to, say, this “event”:

Iran’s Holocaust “conference” – actually more like a pogrom

Well, that is dickish. Were the imams denying the Holocaust on the plane?

I assumed that “rascism” had to do with rascals.

What precisely made them dicks? Well, how about making controversial political statements and criticizing the U.S. government loudly enough to be overheard on a plane full of strangers. Can they show some tact and wait till they land in Arizona and exit the plane to do that? Wouldn’t they have thought ahead of time that repeating Allah’s name on a plane might make people nervous if airplanes in their country were hijacked by Islamic fundamentalists and flown into buildings and killed thousands of their fellow citizens? (There’s some theories that our own non-muslim govt. were the masterminds, but that’s for another discussion).

I’m in favor of freedom of speech, but I’m also in favor of tight security on airplanes. The imams exercised their right to freedom of speech, and the airline exercised its right to remove people who were making other passengers uncomfortable.

That’s how I understand what happened. None of us who are posting here were on that plane, so it’s all speculation (including what I have to say), but based on what I’ve heard people were uncomfortable and it doesn’t appear it was for no reason. I would be uncomfortable if six white Christian fundamentalists all got on the plane and did the same things (prayed out loud together and criticized the U.S. Government while discussing Iraq and Saddam Hussein). I don’t care if the dude asked for a seatbelt extender. If he needed one, fine.

I understand muslims are in a tough spot, because to an extent they are profiled and they are seen as guilty by association of being a muslim, but if the other passengers are to be believed then it seems like they were provoking a confrontation. Why is it so hard to entertain the notion that they might have been provoking it?

When arguing about this subject, people seem to automatically align themselves with the left or right-wing position they think they’re supposed to take, but it’s more complicated than that (even though my previous post was intentionally simplistic, just for fun).

Like it or not, it’s a lot more of a sensitive situation to be in an airport or on a plane now, so there’s a certain code of conduct people are expected to adhere to, a certain sense of decorum. I usually don’t talk about my anti-government views on a plane full of strangers, but that’s just me. Incidentally, none of my friends or family who are devoutly religious have prayed while pre-boarding, post-boarding, or while on the plane. I’m agnostic myself, so I haven’t either. I would probably pray only if the plane was going down and I was hoping my life would be spared by the hopefully benevolent God whose existence I question.

What precisely made them dicks? Well, how about making controversial political statements and criticizing the U.S. government loudly enough to be overheard on a plane full of strangers. Can they show some tact and wait till they land in Arizona and exit the plane to do that? Wouldn’t they have thought ahead of time that repeating Allah’s name on a plane might make people nervous if airplanes in their country were hijacked by Islamic fundamentalists and flown into buildings and killed thousands of their fellow citizens? (There’s some theories that our own non-muslim govt. were the masterminds, but that’s for another discussion).

I’m in favor of freedom of speech, but I’m also in favor of tight security on airplanes. The imams exercised their right to freedom of speech, and the airline exercised its right to remove people who were making other passengers uncomfortable.

That’s how I understand what happened. None of us who are posting here were on that plane, so it’s all speculation (including what I have to say), but based on what I’ve heard people were uncomfortable and it doesn’t appear it was for no reason. I would be uncomfortable if six white Christian fundamentalists all got on the plane and did the same things (prayed out loud together and criticized the U.S. Government while discussing Iraq and Saddam Hussein). I don’t care if the dude asked for a seatbelt extender. If he needed one, fine.

I understand muslims are in a tough spot, because to an extent they are profiled and they are seen as guilty by association of being a muslim, but if the other passengers are to be believed then it seems like they were provoking a confrontation. Why is it so hard to entertain the notion that they might have been provoking it?

When arguing about this subject, people seem to automatically align themselves with the left or right-wing position they think they’re supposed to take, but it’s more complicated than that (even though my previous post was intentionally simplistic, just for fun).

Like it or not, it’s a lot more of a sensitive situation to be in an airport or on a plane now, so there’s a certain code of conduct people are expected to adhere to, a certain sense of decorum. I usually don’t talk about my anti-government views on a plane full of strangers, but that’s just me. Incidentally, none of my friends or family who are devoutly religious have prayed while pre-boarding, post-boarding, or while on the plane. I’m agnostic myself, so I haven’t either. I would probably pray only if the plane was going down and I was hoping my life would be spared by the hopefully benevolent God whose existence I question.

“Were the imams denying the Holocaust on the plane?”

I wouldn’t bet against it!

Of course not.

sorry for the double-post, folks. Not intentional…

What precisely did they say that is so controversial? Oh, here we go:

“The man discussed the problems of countries that don’t observe sharia (Islamic law). “He indicated that it was necessary to go to whatever measures necessary to obey all that’s set out in the Qur’an,” the passenger wrote.”

Jeez. Definately give them the boot. A religious leader opines that one should follow the religion, even in countries where the government does not observe those practices.

I guess I don’t see where there is any new information since the Washington Posts Article. Can someone clarify or are we rehashing the same shit from a week ago?

What happened to the KK ban on mnspeak?

We’re rehashing the same shit from a week ago.
Still an issue though, right? If it was resolved, please let me know what the end result was.

Sparber, did he really have to discuss the problems of countries that don’t observe Islamic law on an airplane full of passengers whose country was attacked by Islamic fundamentalists five years ago? That’s what I call being a dick.

He also mentioned it was necessary to go to whatever measures necessary to obey all that’s set out in the Qur’an…
That’s what I call a red flag. Pretty sure I’d be looking for security too if I had my wife and kid with me on a plane and heard that.

I don’t get it. Why would that be a red flag? Would it be the same if an Orthodox Jew were talking about the need to keep kosher?

And what is the issue that we are trying to resolve?

The airlines made a call and stuck by it. This incident will not be changing policies. This is just another excuse for people to whine about terrorism and keep the threat level up.

I’m about as afraid of dying in a terrorist attack as the first Mnspeak gathering actually being attended by Maz and Raindog and they jello wrestle. Actually I’m much more afraid of that happening. Live your life in fear I don’t care. I’m not going to.

so what about the thousands of muslims fly every day, unnoticed, without incident. why aren’t they singled out every time they get on a plane? because they act appropriately, that’s why. just like the 99.9% of people on airplanes.

these guys obviously wanted to bring attention to themselves (or their cause, or whatever) by acting the way they did. come on msparber, take of your ultra-liberal blinders for one second and try to be objective.

No it wouldn’t be the same. I don’t get the comparison, really. I don’t think people would’ve called on security if he was talking about his religion’s dietary customs. Where are you going with that analogy? It’s ok to have an opinion, but if you’re using “by whatever means necessary” talk and “my religion is superior to your religion” talk out in public, you’d be wise to expect a reaction.

“What happened to the KK ban on mnspeak?”

One more show of support for free speech…nice.

I can’t believe I’m defending Katherine Kersten here – I generally can’t stand her.

I’m sorry, Diz, are you under the misapprehension that this is a government run site? This is more like someone’s private living room, and, if the moderator doesn’t want certain discussions to happen, it’s within his rights to enforce that, just as it would be in your own living room. For example, we don’t post stories to the front page that are not related to Minnesota. This isn’t censorship, it’s editing.

Dizzy if I ever meet you I’m going to push you in the snowbank.
You are a moron!

Not discussing KK is hardly censorship. Fucktard!

“Dizzy if I ever meet you I’m going to push you in the snowbank.
You are a moron!

Not discussing KK is hardly censorship. Fucktard!”

wow, pretty harsh words for a “simpleton”

why do these arguments always degenerate into personal attacks? Is it that hard to stay focused on the issue?

I think they should have been tossed off the plane I just don’t think there is any reason to continue this discussion other than people saying they dislike Muslims.

I don’t think you want to mess with Simpletons.

Listen, show me some actual evidence that they were trying to get attention, and I’ll agree. At this point, allw e have is people deciding that they don’t like it when Muslims talk about their religion, say the word Allah, don’t sit together, and request seat belt exteders. What the hell sort of plan is that? Crafty bastards, concocting a scheme like that — clearly they just wanted to make a scene!

Listen, if they did decide to get kicked off, then they got what they wanted. But nobody has shown me any actual evidence of such a cockamamie scheme, and the most people can say is, well, you know, in times like this, Muslims should learn not to freak out other people.

All right, if being Muslim and sitting apart from each other is suspicious behavior, maybe somebody should let Muslims know this is a bad idea before they board the plane. Publish a little pamphlet or something. Forbidden: Praying, discussing politics, being fat, not sitting together, and saying Allah’s name.

By the way, in response to an earlier post, I don’t live in fear of another terrorism attack. But I’m not gonna stand up for people who act like dicks when they get kicked off a plane.

And as for the standard racist charge that’s trotted out, I must say if a white Christian guy sat a few rows behind me and ripped on muslims, I’d want him outta there, too, no question about it.

I say it’s fair game to discuss what they did before the flight and decide it they were being suspicious or being profiled. What’s strange is digging for stuff on them later (that wouldn’t have been known at the time) to justify their expulsion. If I got kicked off a flight today, a reporter could go back and find I was schooled at St. Stephens by well known radicals/draft evaders. My camp director was one of the Minnesota 8, which tried to blow up the draft records building. Mulford Sibley, a socialist, was my favorite political science teacher (my second favorite was a Republican, but that’s not convenient to the story). I used to regularly go to an Irish bar where they passed the hat for the “troubles” back home. My cousins live near Northern Ireland. Certainly, I’m guilty of something.

“I’m sorry, Diz, are you under the misapprehension that this is a government run site? This is more like someone’s private living room, and, if the moderator doesn’t want certain discussions to happen, it’s within his rights to enforce that, just as it would be in your own living room.“

– - -

Wrong, bucko, this is Al Gore’s Internets! (Don’t forget all the SC cases that hold that “state action” can be found when private entities perform functions normally associated with government! At what point does net communication become so pervasive that it fits that test? (No, not saying now, but . . ))

- – -

“Listen, show me some actual evidence that they were trying to get attention, and I’ll agree.“

– - –

People, clearly and with backup, have been setting out all of the facts that show this for a week plus now. You just keep saying, show me. Methinks you forgot one step in the process of such sharing of information, involving the eyelids, and causing them to slide up . . .

.

So you are actually trying to make the case that they sat down beforehand and said, let’s get kicked off this flight, and here is how: Say the word Allah, request seat belt extenders, have a conversation about religion with a Christian cleric, and request seat belt extenders, and pray.

Wow. My eyes just popped open, because you’re right, that makes crazy sense. Diabolical!

Hey, now that I think about it, that black guy is just asking to get lynched, and that girl is just asking to get raped, and that makes it right.

Can we just admit that no amount of discussion will ever get Max to change his mind and drop this fucking topic?

I didn’t put it on the front page, Tom. But you’re right; we can discuss it until we’re blue in the face, but until I see some actual proof that these guys did something wrong, I’m going to defend them.

But apparently Tom is sick of it, and what passes for moderation on this site is to cuss at me.

Anyway, I hadn’t realized that everyone else in this discussion was clamoring for it to be over, and that I alone was dragging it out. Or that Bobby B’s argument was so persuasive that I should instantly have reversed my position.

Jesus.

It’s not racism. It’s culturcism. If you have DNA tied to a huge ethnic group in Iran, and don’t act like a freak, you can fly all day long.

However, if you’re a moron, you get kicked off the plane.

The USA has a long history of regulating certain cultural behaviors. For example, it’s illegal to marry two women. The whole freakin’ west rests on a Supreme Court case which says it’s okay to steal from Indians because they’re savages. This case has not been overturned.

There’s no reason we can’t be xenophobic about a strange culture from another land where they shoot Russian rockets at one another all day for fun.

This culture has to be the most ascerbic, defiant, noncomplacent group going today. They’re hiding under every civil right known to the NAACP, and testing every allowance the bill of rights has carved out. They’re using cheap travel costs to come to the US and pull pranks all day long.

I, for one, this they’re darn close to the limit. I don’t think any more allowances are deserved.

Go to your room and don’t come out until you’re ready to behave.

Sorry to offend you, Max. It was not my intention. But there is no proof that you demand, only circumstantial evidence. You either believe it or not. And nobody is trying to actually convince anyone here, just score debating points.

On this issue, nobody respects anyone else’s opinion. If you think they should have been put off the plane, you are a bigot. If you think they shouldn’t have been put off the plane, you’re a naive idiot. I was really hoping that this crap would settle a bit after the election and we could get back to talking about the important stuff like Scott Seekins’ clothes.

I enjoy Max’s comments and would discourage his diligent posting. If I can’t defeat his comments with my own, then my own are not worth arguing.

It’s the marketplace of ideas at work.

er, would NOT discourage

I disagree with Max vehemently on this one (usually I do agree with him), but I enjoy the debate.

Speaking of which, the thing he posted about the black guy is just asking to get lynched, the girl is asking to get raped, etc. doesn’t hold water with me because getting kicked off an airplane is nowhere near in the same league as these things. If the imams were going to get lynched that would be a different story and you know it.

I agree with matt9000’s original comment: I enjoy Max’s comments and would discourage his diligent posting.

There goes Jason, sending me those mixed signals again.

msparber, were you actually there on the plane? Did you see what was going on? The tension? The body language? The subtlties? You of all people should know that these things don’t always get reported. I’ll assume you were NOT THERE. How can you sit there and honestly defend these guys in this particular situation?? Sure, the evidence as reported may not add up for you, BUT you’ve honestly got to believe there were some strong emotions tied to what was reported and unless you can say you were a witness I find your arguments weak. Would you concede the fact that because you were not there you can not for sure be certain that there was legitimate concern for the behavior of this group?

I’m through talking about it.

Like I said, weak.

I’m willing to discuss it via email. But I’ve enough of being cursed at by the Bartel Cartel for one day.

Understood. I don’t get on here much so I get a bit fired up, but looking back I see your fingertips may be throbbing. I guess we can agree the horse IS dead.

I’ll tell you, though, I’m not smoochy smoochy with the imams thoug. If anything really compelling comes out that they deliberately made trouble on the plane, I have zero sympathy for them.

imams make the best lovers…other than brazilian transsexuals

Philly…one qustion:

WERE YOU THERE?

No? Then use your own redneck logic and stfu.

K?

I think that this issue and others that deal with Muslims (Ellison et.al.) are just a convenient circumstance for people like Dizzy and Matt9000 to express their otherwise unspoken but deeply held racist views.

The “Terror Threat” makes it safe to Hate.

I think that this issue and others that deal with Muslims (Ellison et.al.) are just a convenient circumstance for people like Dizzy and Matt9000 to express their otherwise unspoken but deeply held racist views.

The “Terror Threat” makes it safe to Hate.

What a fine thread to jump in on. Minus a couple of hotheaded retorts and the usual propaganda from the zealot set, there’s some genuine point-counterpoint going down here. A decent argument from both sides, too, but for my money, it’s hard not agree with:

…a better title would have been “Violation of Imam’s rights completely justified as they had loose guilt-by-association ties to groups that have loose guilt-by-association ties to individuals who have supported groups whose members have supported terrorism.

…as well as:

I say it’s fair game to discuss what they did before the flight and decide if they were being suspicious or being profiled. What’s strange is digging for stuff on them later (that wouldn’t have been known at the time) to justify their expulsion.

…and hard not to blanch at:

What precisely made them dicks? Well, how about making controversial political statements and criticizing the U.S. government loudly enough to be overheard on a plane full of strangers. Can they show some tact and wait till they land in Arizona and exit the plane to do that?

Good lord. That’s the kind of line — especially coming from an otherwise reasonable-sounding person — that can make a fella damn paranoid.

Yeah, I wish I could take back that last comment. It gets into dicey freedom of speech issues and I guess, upon further review, I wouldn’t want free speech to be banned from airplanes/airports – it would really be the kind of Orwellian thing the current administration seems so fond of pushing on folks.

The main point I was trying to make (ended up doing it a bit too strongly in retrospect) is that these kinds of (reportedly) anti-govt., pro-Hussein comments are bound to arouse suspicion on a passenger plane regardless of what race/religion the people happen to be that make said comments.

That’s why I also state that you can have free speech, but you can also give the airlines the ok to remove people from planes to err on the side of caution. The same rule of thumb I hope would apply to someone from the KKK loudly espousing his views on an airplane and making the passengers uncomfortable.

I too am now officially exhausted from this topic.

Muslims to the back of the bus! Er, plane! Remember to give up your seat if a good WASP woman gets onboard!

Iman, try a laxative, you’ll feel much better.

Some of the assumptions in that serial killer article made my head hurt.

The victims fit a profile: white or Asian men in their early 20s, generally around 5-foot-8 and 165 pounds and athletic, with good grades. No victims were women.

Sounds like an average college male in the Midwest.

They also found nearly 94 percent of the drownings took place within 100 miles of I-94. Nearly 82 percent of the drownings occurred during the first two weeks of the month, and three-quarters of the disappearances occurred when the moon was less than half-full.

What’s the percentage of the population in Wisconsin and Minnesota that lives within 100 miles of I-94? What’s the percentage of colleges (or the college population) in those states found in that corridor. As for when the drownings occur–maybe people go out more often in the beginning of the month? It seems that people on a tight budget might be scraping by near the end of each month (gotta save up for the next rent check).

Not saying this proves that there isn’t a serial killer, but weak statistics don’t prove it, either.

Speaking of the moon, isn’t it possible that on nights when the moon is less than half full and it’s, you know, DARK, that inebriated college students might be more likely to trip and fall into the river?
Just askin’

Well Liz/Oz I don’t think the professor’s study set about to prove anything. That’s what the cops are supposed to do…

But I think if you look at the results of his study there is a definite pattern at work. The victims, the area, the circumstances…and to me to think this is all pure chance is…well pure folly.

The FBI has said that there are probably 100,000 ACTIVE serial killers operating within the U.S. at any given time.

Most go uncaught.

So why quickly dismiss the idea that foul play could be happening here?
All the Prof. is saying is that this is a possibility. You think the Government is going to spend time and money searching for the truth if they can just sweep these incidents under the carpet by calling them all “accidents”?

Just askin’

Next time you go and get your Driver’s License renewed remember that these barely coherant and decidely beaten down folks are cut from the same cloth as most civil employees – including cops and small town Police Chiefs.

Then go rent “The Wire”.

Then reconsider this when you have had a chance to learn and grow.

I already watch The Wire, so thanks anyway.

It’s unwise to attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity. I remember drunkenly thinking that a “polar bear swim” sounded like a good idea one October night when I was in college. I didn’t do it, mostly because it would have required me to walk several blocks out of my way. I also regularly took less-than safe short cuts (such as along train tracks far from lights or possible observers) to and from parties. There were even times I thought, “This is how horror movies start,” but it didn’t stop me from doing it. The point is, college kids, especially drunk ones, do dumb things all the time.

But I think if you look at the results of his study there is a definite pattern at work. The victims, the area, the circumstances…and to me to think this is all pure chance is…well pure folly.

So why quickly dismiss the idea that foul play could be happening here?

It’s not so much that I want to quickly dismiss the idea of foul play, it’s that I want to examine the results closer. Innumeracy in this country is high, and numerous studies have shown that humans have a sucky risk assessment mechanism. We are also great at seeing patterns–so good that we can and do see patterns in random data. I’m not so eager to start a serial killer manhunt on what seems to be pretty weak grounds.

uh, 100,000 serial killers? ZOMG THAT MEANS THERE MUST BE OVER 100 IN MINNEAPOLIS ALONE!

Start locking your doors, uptowners!

The FBI has said that there are probably 100,000 ACTIVE serial killers operating within the U.S. at any given time

well, close. actually the number is closer to 50. (not just wikipedia says this, it’s all over the internetS.)

although to be fair, wikipedia also says “white males are less likely to be serial killers than male African Americans or male Hispanics. “. f_ckin wikipedia is so RACIST!!!!

raindog – dumbest….poster….ever.

50. 100,000. Same diff.

Other estimates put the number of killers close to 500.

cereal killer -biggest…pussy…ever.

It’s not so much that I want to quickly dismiss the idea of foul play, it’s that I want to examine the results closer.

I think that’s what the professor is recommending as well.

Perhaps if your son went “missing” you might see things differently about searching for a potential killer.

Ahh…the USA…a nation Sheep.

Well…Mr. Policeman says its was an accident so…

CNN says Muslims want to kill you so…

Baa! Baa! Baa! Baa! Baa!

that’s funny, all the famous serial killers I can remember were white men.

Also, I heard there’s a whole lot of cereal to be killed out in golden valley!

I don’t know why you get the impression that I don’t think there’s a killer because “the Man” says so. If anything, I’m arguing for more critical thought. These statistics are weak and there are plenty of alternate explanations. Just because some professor says something rather meaningless like “They also found nearly 94 percent of the drownings took place within 100 miles of I-94. ” and “If the drownings were all random, there should be greater racial and academic diversity among the victims and they should be scattered all over the map, Gilbertson said.” and you feel there’s a killer doesn’t make it so.

The I-94 thing really gets me. Of course it’s not going to be random–Interstates tend to connect population centers. In fact, I looked at a map and it shows that almost the entirety of Minnesota and Wisconsin is within 100 miles of I-94 (Duluth looks like it is the biggest city not in that perimeter). I’d be willing to bet that something damn close to 94 percent of the states (or 94 percent of college students in those states) are also within those borders.

I feel the same thing about people who talk about 9/11 conspiracies. Not because George Bush said it was terrorists and I believe him, but because most conspiracy theorists know jack about science and engineering and misremember the little they were taught back in 9th grade.

Ugh, it undermines my argument when I leave too much in quotes or drop words like “something damn close to 94 percent of the population in those states are also within those borders.

Where there’s smoke, there’s fire Elizabeth!

Even if I have to lie about stats to prove my point.

Karl Rove has taught me well!

seriously, all I’m seeing here are retarded drunken college kids falling into rivers. There’s no sinister bent on it, they’re just retards helping natural selection on with some booze.

“Ahh…the USA…a nation Sheep”

Raindog – profound as ever.
Yes, so true, we really are a nation Sheep….Canada, now that’s a nation Goat.

Another perspective on the imam controversy from a fellow Muslim

Wow, Dizzy, it’s sort of like Jews for Jesus. Only with Muslims. You find the bestest websites on the whole interweb!!!