Secrets of the City

Submitter has a last name of a DLS family and perhaps would be able to opine about this:

DeLaSalle is an integral part of Nicollet Island, certainly; but will putting up an athletic field help solely the school or the island as a whole? Is it good for the community or just for DLS’s fund-raising?

REPOST:

It was a back and fort battle of wills for gridiron supremacy, but in the end DeLasalle Islanders’ hard charging offense overcame the stout Nicollet Island NIMBY’s defense, led by Screaming Jack Parry. The NIMBYs are calling for a review of the DeLasalle touchdown, but from here it looks like the Islanders held on to the ball and crossed the goal line.

Final Score:

DeLasalle Islanders 7, Nicollet NIMBYs 0

There are people all across the city who think that building a football stadium on Nicollet Island is a terrible idea. I’m one of them, and I don’t live anywhere near the island.

But reducing it to a NIMBY issue makes the people opposed to it seem petty and self-centered, so why don’t we keep that up.

Also, they people hate poor kids!

You know just how lame they are when they try to get a short stretch of concrete declared “historical” when they’ve already changed everything around it to put up their publicly subsidized homes. I’m looking forward to their appeal, because nothing makes me happier than spending tax money to fight special interest law suits.

I should say that I edited this post a bit from what was originally written. Here’s the original:

I am always amused that these people, mostly residents of Nicollet Island, some of whom paid far below market value for their homes, have taken on this stance opposing the footbal field to conserve the history and character of the Island. Pretty clever on their behalf to try and have Grove Street deemed as a historical street. Have they looked at Grove Street? If it is something they thought should be preserved, why wasn’t it ever kept up to it’s original composition? No-one cared about it before these self entitled residents started this opposition for their own reasons. DeLaSalle is a large part of the history of the Island, and few argue that they are not deserving of a home field. Keep in mind this is not a venue that will be solely used for DeLaSalle football. Plans are for the venue to be utilized for other youth sports activities. DeLaSalle has provided quality education in a Christian environment for 100 years, any claim that this stadium is ignoring an academic shortcoming is also incorrect.

Matt,

How is it incorrect to say the stadium is ignoring an academic shortcoming? As an alumnus, I am very proud I went to that school and I did enjoy attending school there very much. It’s a great institution.

Residents of Nicollet Island (who I don’t give a rip about) aside, should citywide residents, whose taxes support the island as a public place, have to suffer at the hands of an institution which has an almost erotic fascination with sports?

As long as we’re getting historic about roads, why doesn’t DLS cut off the access they provide through their property for the eastbound exit off the Hennepin Avenue bridge? That’s not original after all. Then, of course, we could remove the houses that were put there; they’re not original either. Wait, if those two things happened, who would be left to object?

should citywide residents, whose taxes support the island as a public place, have to suffer at the hands of an institution which has an almost erotic fascination with sports?

It isn’t a public place. Try parking on one of the residential streets and see what happens.

And, if you’re going to make that argument about an institution that’s going to build its own stadium, and let the city programs use it part time, what do you think about other public schools, whose stadiums are built with tax dollars?

T-Bar,

I only thought of this now: Doesn’t Grove Street offer access to a bridge over the train tracks? Wouldn’t cutting off Grove potentially make it difficult for emergency vehicles to cross the tracks in the event a train is using them?

If this is so, I would think this argument carries far more weight than that of the squatters’ “historic” bullshite.

Does the Bartel Cartel have secret landholdings on the Island? Is that why they’re so hot to see this stadium get built? It’s like the Strib and the Metrodome all over again.

I knew that DLS was politically connected on high, but I didn’t realize that they had Tom and Matt batting for them.

Seriously, though, I went to a high school that had no home football field. It didn’t ruin me. And I’m not even arguing that they shouldn’t get a new stadium closer to the school. But don’t build it on this unique, historically significant, critical chunk of land.

T-Bar,

And, if you’re going to make that argument about an institution that’s going to build its own stadium, and let the city programs use it part time, what do you think about other public schools, whose stadiums are built with tax dollars?

I will admit, I am biased because I don’t like sports at all. I would rather the schools spent that tax money on capital projects which would benefit the mind.

Unfortunately, space on Nicollet Island is relatively finite, and the only way everyone will ever be happy is if a few square acres of landfill get dumped along the shoreline.

St. Thomas had problems expanding its St. Paul campus, but I don’t think the Nicollet Island debate would be as heated if DlS wanted to expand its academic capacity, instead of building a sports field.

I live in the hood and I honestly wish they’d raze every building on the island and turn it into a wonderful downtown park. Fuck the jerks who live there and fuck delasalle and it’s ugly building. Fuck the parking lots and fuck the poorly-maintained grounds around the pavillion. Fuck the whole island, if they won’t do anything good with it, I hope it finishes collapsing into the river.

also the school has a fat patch of land in FRONT of their school where they’ve currently got a lovely parking lot facing the main drag in town. Maybe they should build new academic buildings and scoot things up against the street, then they’d have all the space in the world behind that to build stadiums and who cares what else.

Here is what Nicollet Island should look like

“Here is what Nicollet Island should look like”

Great idea, let’s do it!
Oh wait, my Time Machine’s broke.

An “almost erotic fascination with sports”. Wow. You’d think that an alumnus would shy away from such a comment. Your perception of that is interesting, I’ll just say that.
Will the stadium help DLS fundraising?? I don’t know, you would think so.
Is it good for the community? That doesn’t seem to be argument. They seem to be saying that it is bad for the community, which it is not.
My issue is the opposition started with self serving motivations and twisted it into a larger, more public issue.

you don’t need a time machine, just a big bulldozer

Is there a label or the type of person who moves into a place, thereby changing it, and then insists that any subsequent change is intolerable? Kinda like a NIMBY, but there must be a more appropriate term.

That’s American life & politics in a nutshell, Mulcahy. The ends justify the means. We take our personal agenda and hide it behind or lump it in with some larger, more popular,, palatable an passable issue in order to get what we want. We are a disingenious lot of lawyers.

Or, as Hunter S. stated much more eloquently,
“America…just a nation of two hundred million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns and no qualms about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable”

heh. That’s us ok.

If this was a muslim school requesting a soccer field kids would be playing on it already.

Or the school would be a smoking crater.

Mulcahy,

Why would I shy away from that statement? I think the school can do better than blowing their money on a stadium. They need another building for academics. I have always felt this way. I was dismayed when they built a new gym, am currently unhappy over the proposed stadium and will withhold all donations until they commit to building a new “C” building or something of that academic nature.

Aaron is letting the fact that he was always picked last for kickball affect his thinking on this I’m sure.

“Erotic” is inaccurate not to mention a poor choice of words. That is why you should have shied away from it.
Build a new “c” building? Maybe. Did it’s condition adversely effect the quality of the education you received while at DeLaSalle? More importantly, does it’s current condition hinder the learning experience of current students?? Most importantly, do you(Calhoun) know that DeLaSalle is mindfully not spending money to enhance curriculum, and appropriating those funds toward the stadium?

I think the school’s obsession with cultivating sports stars could be seen as “erotic.” I detected quite the devotion to athletic causes.

I know that DeLaSalle isn’t bursting at the seems with cash. The money used for the stadium could be used for other purposes. If the donor gave the monetary gift with conditions that a stadium be built, they should have denied it on principle. I hardly think St. John Baptist de la salle started the school as a recruiting ground for football stars.

I am not denying I received a good education. You seem quite sensitive about criticism of the school. I am only saying that as a student there I saw firsthand the school’s priorities. If anything, the teachers I had toiled hard to give us a good education despite all the worship of all things athletic.

If not “erotic,” then what would it be called: a “worship of false idols” perhaps?

“blowing their money on a stadium”?

high school isn’t just about academics. aren’t they sending something like 90% of their kids to college? at a school that’s 40% minority, they must be doing something right.

my boxing gym was located in the downtown hyatt for a while, and we shared space with delasalle’s basketball team. those kids represented their school very well – polite, respectful, disciplined. they certainly deserved better than practicing in a hotel. i’m happy they got a new gym and now a football stadium. good for them.

I think this issue is essentially a dead one: everyone has their opinions and discussions will go nowhere. It’s a done deal, anyway, isn’t it?

Yes, it does seem to be a done deal, so let’s begin discussing what other public assets we should give away to the private sector.

I don’t have a hot tub at my house. It pisses me off that I have to go to the Y to use one. How about the park board gives me some land in the park next door to my house so I can build one. I promise that I’ll let the poor kids use it Sunday afternoons from 2:30 to 4:00 pm.

If my neighbors, or some unfortunate citizen concerned about the best use of public land objects, I’ll just call them a NIMBY or accuse them of being elitist liberals. Perfect!

You don’t need a hot tub. You’re obviously already broiling in an anti-liberal fever.

I do too need a hot tub. It soothes me.

And my concerns aren’t anti-liberal (I don’t think).

I’m just a little bit amazed how the DLS backers (of which there are many in important places) have managed to completely hijack this conversation. They always frame this issue as Noble, Struggling, Student Athletes vs. Arrogant, Selfish, Hypocritical NIMBYs, and the media eats that up.

I guess that issues of good governance, the best and highest use of public land, and salvaging some shred of historical integrity don’t make very good sound bites (or Nick Coleman columns).

Munsing,

I agree with you. As someone who has been vocal about the misuse of land associated with that stadium, I am glad someone is able to articulate the issue better than I am.

In all fairness, I would also like a hot tub.

I don’t live on the Island. I think it’s fucking ridonkulous to take public park land and give it away to a religious institution. It’s a park — treat it like a park.

I suspect that there are more DLS Stadium Opponents who have nothing to do with the Island — like myself, that is — than there are Proponents who have nothing to do with the school.

“…the best and highest use of public land, and salvaging some shred of historical integrity..”

OR

…preserving some weedy back lot so you won’t have cars parking along your street on fall Friday nights…

Hot tubs are over-rated. You all should try a sweat lodge.

I don’t live on the Island. I think it’s fucking ridonkulous to take public park land and give it away to a religious institution

ahhh, there’s the rub.

They paved Grove Street
And put up a football field
When you drive on the Island
You’ll have to stop, not yield
Dont it always seem to go
That you dont know what youve got
Till its gone
They paved Grove Street
And put up a football field

Coleman took all the NIMBYs
Put em in a ME museum
And they charged the people
A dollar and a half just to see em
Dont it always seem to go
That you dont know what youve got
Till its gone
They paved Grove Street
And put up a football field

Hey City Council
Stand up for that Catholic School
Give them tall bright lights
To piss off the island fools
Please!
Dont it always seem to go
That you dont know what youve got
Till its gone
They paved Grove Street
And put up a football field

Late last night
I saw all the NIMBYs scram
As a big yellow bulldozer
Took away their land
Dont it always seem to go
That you dont know what youve got
Till its gone
They paved Grove Street
And put up a football field.

The school wants to build a building (brick/stucco grandstand/pressbox structure to seat 750) in a national historic district. Any new construction in one of the city’s historic districts gets reviewed by the Minneapolis Heritage Preservation. In this case, the HPC said putting up a building in the middle of a street didn’t fit the guidelines for the historic district. New construction is supposed to be built along a street, not in the middle of it.

There are alternatives. The city councilmember for the area proposed one at last week’s city council committee meeting: the field could be elevated above the parking lot in front of the school. See http://www.ourbeautifulriver.org. The grandson of Theodore Wirth, landscape architect Ted Wirth, has designed a field that would nestle into a nearby slope amphitheater-style. See http://www.mplsparkwatch.org/node/462. Also, the Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board has already started work on a new downtown-area football/soccer stadium at Parade. See http://www.mplsparkwatch.org/node/524.

Anyone who thinks the city should look at alternatives should contact their city councilmember or the mayor. See http://www.fmr.org/nicollet_island.html for phone numbers and more info.

It’s not pristine parkland, it’s not even a weedy back lot, it’s a tennis court. The park board is giving away a tennis court for a soccer/football field to which they will have access (high school soccer and football starts in mid-August and goes until November, that leaves a whole lot of summer for park and rec use).

my new house (that none of you will ever be invited to) has 2 hottubs. don’t worry, i’m not bragging. they were built in the 70’s, and are totally gross. and freaky. i can’t get the thought of a swinging, middle aged couple out of my head. ugh.

Yikes C-box,

I’ve got a visual of Donna’s Dad from “That 70s Show”

Even better CGE. I hate tennis.

totally. i have visions of hairy bellies and gold chains running around my basement….ahhh!!!! make it stop!

G_Rote: I hope you’re multitasking over there today. Impressive paving work.

totally. i have visions of hairy bellies and gold chains running around my basement….ahhh!!!! make it stop!

Try this.

“…the HPC said putting up a building in the middle of a street didn’t fit the guidelines for the historic district. New construction is supposed to be built along a street, not in the middle of it.”

Dude, again, have you seen the street? Empty stretch between two fields. Nothing “historic” about it.

Is there a web site for DLS astroturfers, or are they always lurking here?

“…preserving some weedy back lot so you won’t have cars parking along your street on fall Friday nights…”

I swear. I promise you. I really really really don’t live on Nicollet Island, or anywhere near it.

I am, however, a citizen of Minneapolis.

It’s not pristine parkland, it’s not even a weedy back lot, it’s a tennis court.

I don’t think they are giving up a tennis court. A new one was on the plans I saw as part of the stadium plan.

What history are they trying to preserve? Flop houses and industry. It wasn’t that long ago there was a woman who lived there with a mule or donkey. They wanted to build an airport there.

Williamsburg, it ain’t.

And how many fall Friday nights are you talking about? Maybe four?

See Ratzo,

I think there are a few different flavors of opposition to this project:

the residents (no derrogatory acronyms here) who maybe just don’t want change and raised the specter of destroying something “historical” to block it,

the “Public Land for Private (heaven forbid religiously affiliated) Use” camp, who seem to think that the intrinsic value of this arguably under-utilized parcel is greater than it could be as a stadium for both school AND city use,

and the “Why isn’t DLS spending money on education instead of academics” sentiment, to which I wonder, if this is an issue why aren’t there any DLS parents decrying the staduim deal? Have they all fallen under the sway of the “false idol” that is athletics?

Well, I do live on Nicollet Island, and I haven’t been much involved in the stadium debate, largely because I realized early on that De La Salle was willing to go to some pretty insane lengths to get what they wanted, and I didn’t care to catch any of the shrapnel. But when I have to read, day after day, in both dailies and on this site, that I and everyone else on the island are a bunch of racist rich people who don’t pay property taxes and are on some elitist NIMBY crusade, I have a hard time stomaching it.

From the very beginning, De La Salle did everything it could to sneak this project’s approval through the Park Board. They lied to elected officials about whether or not they had canvassed the neighborhood (they hadn’t) and reported that no one on the island had a problem with the plan when they knew otherwise. They stood in public meetings and called opponents of the stadium racist and selfish, while categorically refusing to engage any effort at compromise. They made grand pronouncements about how good the stadium will be for everyone in the area, while conveniently glossing over the fact that they made the same argument about community use of their tennis courts, which they padlocked for years after getting approval. (continued below)

(continued from above comment)
Do I think Grove Street is especially historic? No. I do, however, know for a fact that it’s the only east-west street on the island that connects to Nicollet Street, which is the only way to get to the northern half od the island whenever a train is going by, which happens 30 times a day. The trains often take as long as ten minutes to pass. So by shutting down the eastern half of Grove, any emergency vehicle needing to reach the northern half of the island would have to drive all the way around the southern end and back onto Grove, which is no easy task at some hours, particularly when De La Salle’s buses and cars are stacked up end to end around that entire area.

Understand: I’m not saying categorically that the stadium can’t work. I’m saying that the smug, self-righteous know-it-alls who think this is simply an issue of rich homeowners holding down poor kids are full of it. It’s a legitimate debate, no matter what side you’re on, and anyone on this board who’s going around parroting Joe Soucheray and Nick Coleman’s rantings on the subject ought to know better.

Oh right, I forgot about the “But what if there’s a fire on the North side of the Island during rush hour while a train’s going by” splinter.

acalhoun and MunsingW -

Does the Bartel Cartel have secret landholdings on the Island? Is that why they’re so hot to see this stadium get built?

Um… I was just quoting the original poster. I have absolutely no opinion on this matter.

Do any of you know why DeLaSalle rejects the option of a stadium on B.F. Nelson? It’s two blocks away, huge and empty.

Regarding “secret landholdings” or other agendas. It seems there are some generally identifiable associations that greatly raise the odds that the individual will be a DeLaSalle booster (in no particular order): alumnus, parent of student, Catholic, jock, and family/friends of the previous categories.

Or maybe its people who think the city needs more athletic fields, especially ones we don’t have to pay for, and especially ones in the middle of the city.

Where were all of you when the city gave a big chunk of Parade, including a soccer field that was used every night in the summer, away to host Cirque de Soleil, and never put it back into use as a field?

Matt,

I never said anything about a Bartel Cartel.

give it away to a religious institution

ahhh, there’s the rub.

Absolutely that is. A park is public. Religion is exclusive. What’s complicated about this? This is certainly different than giving it to a public school.

The public will have public fields in the downtown area again with the Minneapolis Park and Recreation Board’s current Parade Stadium project. Work on new athletic facilities, including a football stadium, is underway at the Parade site. Superintendent Jon Gurban told park commissioners Aug. 2 that the site is being prepared for a new development that will include a stadium, a practice field, and an event center. See http://www.ourbeautifulriver.org

It’s certainly not unprecedented for government to subsidize a religious institution. How much property tax does DLS pay? Or the basilica, for that matter. It only became an issue when the godless commies started to gain political power.

When people tell me this isn’t a christian nation, I ask them why christmas is a national holiday and halloween isn’t.

Absolutely that is. A park is public. Religion is exclusive. What’s complicated about this? This is certainly different than giving it to a public school.

then why say “religious” rather than “private”? that’s all i’m saying.

They lied to elected officials about whether or not they had canvassed the neighborhood (they hadn’t)

This much is true. I live in the NIEBNA hood and never saw anything about it either.

I also have some doubts about just how ‘open’ access will be to the public.

oh, and to feed the troll (sorry guys):

When people tell me this isn’t a christian nation, I ask them why christmas is a national holiday and halloween isn’t.

It’s called tradition, idjit. Christmas today has more to do with shopping and santa clause than jesus. Don’t forget the easter bunny, either.

And let’s also not forget that these (and other) christian ‘holidays’ are usurped pagan holidays that have been celebrated since long before christianity came about. Jesus (the man and historic figure, not the fairy tale) wasn’t even born in the winter.

BZZT, try again GOPdroid.

It’s not unprecidented. It just should be unprecidented. Because we all know how well theocracies work – nothing like basing policy on arbitrary jibberish.

tatemani, every response you make to my posts is beside the point. I say, “why do we need to respect religious beliefs?”, you reply with “haha if the liberal commies would just say that outloud, we’d never elect another democrat!!”. I say, “it’s bs to use this for a religious institution and take it away from the public”, and you reply with, “well, we’ve done it before”. So freaking what? Why don’t you give me a relevent reply? Consider starting with “theocracies are good because…” That would answer my question.

When people tell me this isn’t a christian nation, I ask them why christmas is a national holiday and halloween isn’t.

Would you consider Singapore to be a Christian nation? No? Then why is Christmas a national holiday there? Singaporeans also celebrate Deepivali, Chinese New Year, and all three Islamic holy days as national holidays. Oh — and everyone gets a half-day off on Good Friday, too … something that doesn’t happen even in the “Christian” U.S. of A.

Sorry, bud, but this country was founded by Deists — not evangelicals or fundamentalists. Big difference there. BIG difference.

Would you consider Singapore to be a Christian nation?

No.

No? Then why is Christmas a national holiday there? Singaporeans also celebrate Deepivali, Chinese New Year, and all three Islamic holy days as national holidays.

For the reasons you cited. They have holidays for other religions besides christianity. Name a U.S. national holiday that’s for a religion other than christianity?

godless commies. At least they’re beginning to understand capitalism.

Godless commies? Your geography knowledge is lacking. Singapore is not Hong Kong. The Singapore government can be called authoritarian but hardly communist. Your original statement implied that only “Christian” nations celebrate Christmas. I merely pointed out the fallacy of your statement.

Besides, Halloween per se isn’t even a religious holiday for wiccans. (The summer and winter Equinox are astronomically more important.) All Hallow’s Eve, however, is celebrated by several Christian denominations.

Name a U.S. national holiday that’s for a religion other than christianity?

Non-sequitor. Italy, Great Britain, Mexico, the Philippines, and, yes, even Russia, do not have national holidays for religions other than Christianity. However, they do not make the same claims of divine origin or a special “relationship” with God that fundamentalists do in this country (which was, after all, founded by Deists). Heck, even Indonesia — the most populous Muslim country on the planet — recognizes Christmas as a national holiday … but one would find it very difficult to label them “Christian.”

Minnesota Constitution, Article XIII, Sec. 2: “In no case shall any public money or property be appropriated or used for the support of schools wherein the distinctive doctrines, creeds or tenets of any particular Christian or other religious sect are promulgated or taught.”

The current proposal for a football field on Nicollet Island requires that the city vacate Grove Street, transferring ownership of half the public right of way to the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis, which owns the property on which DeLaSalle High School sits.

It’s not linked online anywhere, but there’s a 2 pg feature by Jim Leinfelder in the new MSP about a communal chicken coop kept on Nicollet Island by Phyllis Kahn, Leslie Ball and Peat Willcutt. How quaint. I hope the chickens like football.

Somebody should tell the city of St. Paul that they’re in violation of the law then because city school busses are used to transport kids to private schools every day.

“Deist” is just another word for someone who believes in god. And given the four references to god in the declaration of independence, one can assume it was the christian god. And for what’s it’s worth, I’m not a christian. I just find myself defending them and jews a lot lately.

Christmas was fun when I was in South Korea. It’s a country of mostly atheists/agnostics with some Buddhism, Islam and Christianity thrown into the mix and they have a fun time with Christmas.

notice how he responded to your comment but not mine?

“oh noes, mama, teh scarey logikk hurts mah brainezzzz!”

“One can assume it was a Christian God.”

You know what they say about assumptions, Tate. Read a bio about Tom Jefferson and you will see he wrote a book, but never published it, arguing against Christianity.

Also: Do you know what Deism is, Tate, do you?

Providing public school bus service to students at religious schools has been tested in court in Minnesota. Giving public land to religious schools, to my knowledge, has not been tested in Minnesota courts.

From the Roundtable on Religion & Social Welfare Policy website: “Minnesota courts upheld a student busing provision in 1970, but stated that the decision represented the outer limits of constitutionality in the State.”

From the Center of the American Experiment website: “The first use of the sectarian schools provision came in 1970. In Americans United v Independent School District No 622, the Minnesota Supreme Court examined a constitutional challenge to a state law that provided funding for transporting children to parochial schools. The U.S. Supreme Court had recognized the validity of this type of program 23 years earlier, and the issue therefore gave the Minnesota court the opportunity to distinguish the federal standard from that of the state. The court stated that the “limitations contained in the Minnesota Constitution are substantially more restrictive than those imposed by U.S. Const. Amend. I.” However, it chose to uphold the state law, and ultimately relied on the U.S. Supreme Court’s judgment that such busing programs do not “support” parochial schools.”

Tmay, I was asked not to feed the troll. Sorry. Maybe when you’re older.

Aaron: I got a better idea. Read the declaration.

Yeah, I hope I grow up to be a halfwit bigot jerkoff like you! Boy, my mumsy will be proud of me then! Let me start practicing regurgitating talking points I heard on fox newz so I can be cool like you!

“Deist” is just another word for someone who believes in god.

LOL. Up to a point. Only up to a point. In a nutshell, Deists are to the other extreme of fundamentalists.

Now, people, c’mon. Tate’s right on this. We’re a Christian country. That’s why we all get St. Swithin’s Day off of work.

I know I do.

Yes, what about the BF Nelson site? That would make sooo much more sense. See, I’m not intractable on this issue.

I just don’t think people properly understand how unique Nicollet Island is. I’m not going to go into a history lesson, but this should be sacred space. We should think long and hard about what gets built there, and anybody that wants to make a drastic change to it should have to demonstrate why that change should be made.

As it stands, the DLSers have flipped the tables on everybody. It’s now our responsiblity to show why they shouldn’t be allowed to do it, when they’re the ones that need to be showing us that:

1. This is the right use for that unique spot of land.

2. It is soooo the right use of the land that the citizens of Minneapolis should give them the land to do it.

In my eyes, they haven’t done either of these. They’ve only demonized the opposition.

Jefferson’s religion.

Boy, we het off topic quickly. I can’t wait till we discuss Millard Fillmore.

I just don’t think people properly understand how unique Nicollet Island is. I’m not going to go into a history lesson, but this should be sacred space.

i would appreciate a brief history lesson. what makes it sacred?

I just don’t think people properly understand how unique Nicollet Island is. I’m not going to go into a history lesson, but this should be sacred space. We should think long and hard about what gets built there, and anybody that wants to make a drastic change to it should have to demonstrate why that change should be made

It is unique, but it ain’t sacred no more. And you can’t compare it to Ile de la Cité…because that’s in-seine.

I’d really like to know what Max Sparber’s nickname is in all the geeky niches he occupies on teh interwebs.

Nicollet Island is the location of the first permanent bridge across the Mississippi River. As such, it is the symbolic bridge to the Northwest. It also is the point where the modern city of Minneapolis began, and the point where old St. Anthony was connected to it.

Further, I believe it to be the only remaining island left in the Mississippi in the city limits of Minneapolis (there used to be several, but we’ve managed to ruin all of them already). Also, I am unaware of any other inhabited islands within the Mississippi between the headwaters and La Crosse, and certainly none of this scale and level of urbanity.

It is the symbolic heart of the city, and this becomes ever truer, I think, as the riverfront is built up with new condos and towers. Yes, it is in some ways a museum piece today, which is unfortunate, because it was once upon a time a gritty, real, functioning place, with factories and urbane residences piled in cheek to jowel.

Today it is a shadow of its former self, but it still has traces of that past, and in other places, it feels like the city is being given back over to nature. It isn’t perfect, but it never was. It is a special place.

I’m sure that there’s a lot more to its history. I’m just shooting from the hip.

Astro Zombie.

…because that’s in-seine.

Nice.

But by this rationale, Minneapolis isn’t Paris, so why do we even bother?

Why bother? Because maybe we can have a functional attractive piece of architecture to be appreciated for generations to come, instead of this:

it is unique, but that doesn’t sound “sacred”. and calling it the hearbeat of the city is silly. i bet 95% of mpls residents have never even stepped foot on the island. i’ve driven through there – it seems to me the residents have a great thing going and don’t want their slice of utopia disturbed. which i totally get, heck, i would fight it too. but calling it historical, sacred…ehh, that’s quite a stretch.

MunsingW: I had to look at that picture three times. Are you actually comparing Nicollet Island to the Il de Cite in Paris?

That is through the looking glass nuts.

This is what I’m sayin’! You did the compare, Munsy.

I ain’t looking for no Paree, but I say that a “brick/stucco grandstand/pressbox structure” done in a tasteful, turn-of-the-century, Ivy growin’ up the side style is a damn sight better than the above shot.

One thing that bugs me about minneapolis is its overcompensation for tearing down all its historic buildings now. Sorry guys, it’s too late, you already buried half of downtown under the quarry. How fitting that it ended up under a strip mall in the city proper, right?

But now every little scrap of some run-down industrial building that’s not terribly significant or aesthetically pleasing is super magic historical happy fun time and can’t be built on because the neighbours might throw a tizzy. Sorry, Minneapolis, call me if you ever find something of real historic significance you missed when you were razing the city for parking lots. I still don’t think DLS should get public land for a stadium, though. Who cares if it’s a run-down crappy island with a bunch of NIMBYs or not, the matter is bigger than what some jerks don’t want in their backyard.

I really wish we could beautify the riverfront like Paris, though. Oh wait, sorry, there’s too many ‘historic’ mill-ruins along it. My bad.

It is our Il de la Cite, bizarre as that sounds. No, it’s not going to be the same, because everybody forgot how to build gothic cathedrals and stuff.

But that doesn’t mean that we should just accept whatever comes down the pipe.

If I were to level one complaint against Minneapolitans, it is that they lack vision: they are presented with a plan, and they see the current reality, and they compare those two things. Of course, the more important comparison is this: what could it be? How does the current proposal compare to what is the best possible outcome?

We don’t have to accept crap, but we do because it’s sometimes better than what’s there now (except that with this stadium, I’d argue that that’s not even the case).

My last thoughts on the issue. I don’t want to become known as the De La Salle guy (to late, I know).

So, MunsingW:

I am like you, a Mpls resident and also, like you I don’t live on Nicollet Island.

I’ve seen a few short-sighted projects take shape in this town, but doesn’t the idea that this one “lacks vision” because it may not be the “best possible outcome” encourage doing nothing?

It seems to me that if enough people agree that an idea is good, and they put the energy and commitment forth to make it happen, the validation is there. If we waited for “the best possible outcome” to be delivered by lightning-bolt from on high, we’d all be here a while.

What could it be? Lots of things.
But enough people seem to want this and, more importantly, they’ve lined up all the elements to make it happen.

Time will tell, I suppose.

Like it has been said a number of times – NIMBY and Francophonics aside – Grove intersects with a bridge which allows for emergency access to the north end of the island, which is necessary because trains often block other points of access.

This doesn’t have to be a church/state, architectural or Pinko NIMBY issue. This is simply an issue of practical safety measures.

I know I’ll get the “Seconds Save Lives” argument, but NI isn’t Manhattan either.
Just how long do you think it would take to “go all the way around the southern end” to get back to the row of houses that’d be affected?

More importantly, what does the MPFD think?

I’m too lazy to dig it up, but I think you’ll find, somewhere in a transcript of early meetings on the issue, that the Mpls FD has said that closing that section Grove will not have a meaningful effect on response times on the island.

I think that’s because they’d prefer to see it burn too.

It’s been approved!

fuck the city council

All of ‘em?
I’m kinda partial to Liz, though Betsy and Di are kinda cute too.

No, like with a big pointy stick in their beehinds.

“Dude, again, have you seen the street? Empty stretch between two fields. Nothing “historic” about it.
»» Submitted by MB SWMpls”

I just love the way ignorant fuckwads make these kinds of judgements. They don’t have a fucking clue about history, or the history of a particular place, or about the importance of historical context and fabric for informing and defining our culture, but they feel they can just glance at something and pronounce “nothing historic about it.”

I vote we bulldoze MB of SWMpls’s house because there’s nothing “important” about it. Idiot.

Couldn’t be happier to have that park land go to use for more than a tiny minority of Minneapolis residents. Looking forward to seeing my kids playing soccer there. We tried to go sit in that park now, but the weeds are huge. Got plenty of weeds in plenty of other parks.

How is turning it into a stadium for a private school making it MORE accessible to the public in general? Excuse me? Huh?

This is kind of the exact opposite of the park board telling the whiney people who live on diamond lake to stuff it and tear down their fences built on public parkland so they can put in a trail. Those people are especially jagoffs because they’re enroaching on parkland for private lakeshore that they don’t own IN THE CITY. If you want lakeshore move to the boonies, jerks!

I think the point CitySports is trying to make is it’d be a better use of the land. You can access and undeveloped lot every day, or you can take your kid to soccer practice on Tues and Thursdays and run around the track on weekday afternoons, etc. Seems like a lot more people would enjoy this “private” facility than currently use the “park”.

In the same vein, On the Edge, a mini-paper for walkers and joggers that was distributed on Nicollet Island from July 23 to August 12, 2006, published comments from the public on the athletic facility proposal that were incorporated into the second edition of the paper. The following opinion about the stadium was received during the three week project but not published in the newspaper:

“Frederick Law Olmsted – Central Park NYC developer and Theodore
Wirth, Mpls Park Board developer said this, Above all else, parks must
attract people to enjoy them! Its a beautiful Sunday afternoon, and there is nary a soul at (this) so-called regional park. As an ex-Park Board employee, 34 years and retired, I can never recall this area being even lightly used as a park. Allowing DeLaSalle a portion of this weed bed for an athletic facility which can be shared and utilized by island residents and other neighborhoods is a great idea and will result in better utilization of the space.”

Jake Werner

Here’s the link to all the unpublished comments:

http://www.forecastart.org/ONtheEDGE_feedback.pdf.

You will have to apply for a permit to use the DeLaSalle football stadium. It says so in the Reciprocal Use Agreement with the Minneapolis park board. A Joint Programming Board will review all applications.

People use the streets and paths of Nicollet Island like they do the streets and paths around the city’s lakes or parkways. They walk, jog, ride bikes, push strollers. The Met Council says more than a million people visit the park that Nicollet Island is at the heart of: Central Riverfront Regional Park. What is the number one activity of those park users? Walking. Downtown now has 30,000 residents and growing. You don’t need a permit to take a walk on a public street or a park path.

The tennis courts on the parkland DeLaSalle wants were built less than 10 years ago at taxpayer expense of more than $100,000 for DeLaSalle’s use. They take up about half the parcel of parkland, not leaving much for the park board to work with. The remainder seems to fall under the park board’s policies about not mowing grass for environmental/habitat reasons. So for school representatives to denigrate the current use of that parkland is strange, since it is of their own making (just not of their own spending).

So an organization, team or group needs a permit to use the staduim? That’s basically what happens with every facility in the metro as far as I can tell. I’ve worked with athletic associations in the eastern suburbs as well as mpls, and in order to insure the optimum use of ball fields, courts, rinks etc., there’s usually a body that takes requests and schedules times. Bottom line is, the kids have a place to practice/play when they need it.

And aren’t you being a little disingenuous when you quote the MC’s million park visitors statistic? Central Riverfront Regional Park is 150 acres of parks, trails, picnic areas, landmarks and monuments, and even if Nicollet Island is “the heart” of this conglomeration, it seems unlikey that a majority of those million visitors took a stroll around NI.

The taxpayers of the state spent more than one million dollars in 1986 for the riverfront open space parkland where the private school now wants to build a stadium. Just to be sure it stayed open space parkland when the Mpls. park board took ownership, the Met Council put a restrictive covenant on the land specifically barring stadiums. That’s because it’s part of a regional park for everyone, young and old — no football pads or membership in an athletic association necessary.

Permits may be typical for users of stadiums. They are not typical for people who visit riverfront open space parkland like Nicollet Island. And it is certainly not typical for a private religious organization to have a say in issuing permits for facilities on public land.

As for the number of visitors, take any fraction of one million visitors you want. More of the public uses public roads and public land, open to all throughout every day, week and year, than a stadium open to select people at select times during select seasons, as selected and permitted by a private school.

I was running through Nic Island this am and wondered… Would it be possible to install telescoping light poles for the proposed DLS field? They could be lowered to a net 30-40 ft or so when not in use. Might even be easier to maintain them when they are lowered.