Secrets of the City

Michelle Malkin gives her commentary on what went wrong? There are no credible commentators we could link to, just hysterical conservative attack dogs?

So now the ThinkProgress blog is a hysterical attack dog? HAVE YOU READ THINKPROGRESS LATELY?

And a website called “The Moderate Voice”? PUH-LEASE. Don’t you pride yourself on using Google or something? Looks like a mix of opinions to me: liberal blog link (1st), moderate news site (2nd), conservative vlog (3rd). What more do you want? Looks like a gamut to me.

Think Progress retracted its initial story, FYI. (And TP is a fairly credible lefty blog, isn’t it Max?) I could give my commentary on what went wrong. It’s a radio network launched without enough radio professionals to manage it. Regardless of politics– that’s not good business.

I just see red when I see Malkin.

I tried to have several links showing different points of view on this issue.

What I’m curious about is Al Franken’s rumored Senate run. Was there ever any weight to this, or was it the equivalent of the rumors of Ventura running for President in 2000?

I should have said credible conservative commentators. Linking to Malkin is like linking to Raindog’s blog and claiming its the viewpoint of the left.

No offense, Raindog. But you do call everyone a Nazi.

“Michelle Malkin gives her commentary on what went wrong? There are no credible commentators we could link to, just hysterical conservative attack dogs?”

–

Wait, you mean Michelle M went bankrupt?

. . . . No?

Funny that, eh?

.

Liberals are crappy at talk radio, much to their credit.

Well, I hear there’s good money in thew field of running dog apologetics. Speaking truth to power? Not s much. Comforting the afflicted and afflicting the comfortable?

Man, you’ll go broke.

The reactionary stuff spit out by rightwingers 24/7 really sells. Rouses the rabble. They can’t get enough of it. There are whole radio stations devoted to it.

But listen to the ads. It’s for pills that that help your kid grow to be a Big Man. It’s devices for people who grind their teeth in their sleep. Dodgy investment and business startups.

Ok, if you’re really interested, I’ll tell you why they failed.

Even though I don’t listen to talk radio anymore because I’m not in my car much anymore, I started listening to Rush in 1991 at the beginning of the Gulf War. His program was different because he was giving a pro-Bush administration point of view. All the other media outlets, radio and tv were anti-Bush. He became successful by grabbing the audience of people who supported the republican point of view. As much as democrats and liberals disagree, republicans believe that all the other media outlets take the left’s side of the argument. Rush offered the only alternative point of view … a view that many people agreed with but were not hearing elsewhere. The shows also offered ideas and philosophical reasoning for the conservative agenda. WHY free markets work. WHY the flat tax is a better idea. WHY a strong military is necessary. Etc.

From what I’ve heard (because I haven’t actually heard a show) the liberal shows are just anti-republican rants, absent any philosophy or new ideas.

Now, I know you won’t agree with this but it’s true … liberal radio failed because it’s not a unique product. Virtually all mainstream media outlets, including comedy shows are anti-republican. The radio shows are simply the worst offering in a marketplace that is all selling the same thing … anti-republican rhetoric.

Limbaugh and the other conservative shows still make money because they’re STILL the product in a media marketplace of lefty views that are only packaged differently from each other.

From what I’ve heard (because I haven’t actually heard a show) the liberal shows are just anti-republican rants, absent any philosophy or new ideas.

So you start out by admitting you have no idea at all what you’re talking about, and then proceed to offer an opinion anyway. Do you actually think that anyone would find your argument credible?

No, that’s your specialty. I said “from what I’ve heard.” The people who I’ve heard from DO listen to the shows because they’re liberals. And they’re frustrated as hell that the network is failing (or has failed, depending on who you listen to). The network’s worst criticis aren’t conservatives … we don’t listen … but liberals who wanted it to succeed and are mad as hell that it didn’t.

It’s a simple lesson in free markets. If there are 10 ice cream vendors all lined up at the fair, and 9 are selling vanilla and the tenth is selling chocolate, the vendor selling chocolate will have more sales than any of the other vanilla vendors. It’s the same reason why Fox News has consistently been number one in ratings since they’ve been on the air. They sell chocolate while all the other networks are selling vanilla.

Uncile Miltie,

By “chocolate,” you meant “shite.”

“Rush offered the only alternative point of view … a view that many people agreed with but were not hearing elsewhere.”

Limbaugh’s take to a T.

I think it’s the type of people he attracts. I think his callers are not this left-out demographic that yearns to have their point of view affirmed. I think they’re the Type of People Who Call Talk Radio. A niche in and of themselves and tied by association to a political philosophy.

Because it’s not conservatism of a Buckley or Kristol variety. It’s conservatism of a black-and-white-I’m-right,-you’re-an-idiot,-slam-down-the-phone-and-breath-a-sigh-of-satisfaction variety.

Killing the messenger doesn’t change the message.

And by “vanilla,” you mean “actual unbiased news,” which FOX would like us to believe has a “liberal agenda,” why they are “fair and balanced.”

It’s a topsy turvy world conservatives live in. Black is white, up is down. We’re through the looking glass here, people.

Actually, if you looked at Fox objectively (which I know is impossible for some people), they do have more shows where they have both sides of the argument represented than their competitors do. And Fox isn’t really presenting the conservataive message as much as they are not presenting the liberal message. They’re neutral but it only seems right wing in comparison to the others, who are obviously left wing.

It’s all relative. The SeeBS evening news with Dan Rather, for example, mirrored the front page of the New York Times and Washington Post … left wing rags by anyone’s definition. ABC and NBC only mirrored the Times and the Post by about 85-90%. So whatever the NYT and the Post thought was newsworthy was what the people got, defined as news.

Fox News ignored the NY Times and the DC Post and decided themselves what was newsworthy that day. That act alone differentiated them from their competitors. That translated to the interests of about 45% of all viewers and a ratings winner.

See, this is why you people will never defeat us. Even when we try to help you understand the dynamics of our success you tell us we’re full of shit. You’ve been brainwashed for so long, you don’t even recognize when people are telling you the truth. I guess we should just go back to laughing at you behind your backs.

Tate, do they have flying cars and hookers with multiple “happy parts” in your world?

Fox News does refer to one news source to set its news agenda: press releases coming out of the White House.

People always complain about a liberal media, but if the media were actually liberal we would have known a lot more of what was going on post-9/11 then we did.

“than” not “then”

I rarely watch Fox News and it’s not because it’s got a Republican bent (I mean, you know that going in), it’s because I feel the other news networks do a better job covering international events and financial news, which interest me far more than Fox’s obsession with so-called “culture war” stuff. Rember their whole “war against Christmas” coverage? Curiously, it turns out Christmas won after all. And thank God (and Fox) for that.

Hmmm….

From the website:

AM950 Air America Minnesota Running Strong

Progressive talk radio is here to stay says AM950 Air America Minnesota owner Janet Robert. While there are reports of changes at the national Air America Radio Network, the Minnesota Air America affiliate, AM950, is locally owned by Robert, who says, AM950 Air America Minnesota will continue to offer a strong progressive voice for the Twin Cities.

In addition to our most popular show Al Franken (11:00 a.m. to 2:00 p.m.) which is Air America programming, AM950 also carries programming from the Jones Radio Network including the two top national progressive talkers, Stephanie Miller ( 8:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m.), and Ed Schultz (2:00 p.m. to 5:00 p.m.).

Listenership of AM950 has been an incredible success story since it began progressive programming in October of 2004. On September 18, 2006, Air America Minnesota will be launching a billboard campaign to celebrate the success of the Stephanie Miller Show which has seen explosive growth since she launched. The listenership in Stephanies morning show from 8 a.m. to 11:00 a.m. grew 27% in just nine months.

With the Iraq War, erosion of the middle-class, growing budget deficits, lack of affordable health care, and a culture of corruption to fight, a real progressive radio station is in great demand, says Janet Robert. Progressive radio can help create a society which works for the good of all people.

As a member of the media, I think critics who slam Fox News mix up their talk shows with their news programs. Their news programs are pretty decent. Their management has a right wing bent for sure, but as a former intern of ABC News, I can tell you what the management there thinks too.

And tatemani is exactly correct as to why Fox succeeds. The more liberals hate it, the more conservatives love it. And liberals can go to PBS or the major networks, and generally not feel abandoned. Conservatives perceive that they have one choice.

Same is true with right wing radio. Conservatives perceive that NPR is for liberals, so talk radio became for the conservatives. There are some excellent liberal radio hosts, like Jay Marvin. But in the hey-day of talk radio, the conservatives were having fun. Air America (even though it’s populated by comedians) is lacking in the fun.

You’ve been brainwashed for so long, you don’t even recognize when people are telling you the truth.

Tatemani – go take a big long look in the mirror my friend, and repeat that sentence over and over and over again. Then maybe you’ll get it.

I agree with Derusia (I just like calling you that). I think Fox is at its best when it does a program about, say, the real estate market, or covers some news event that doesn’t lend itself so easily to ideological slant. But even so, I just think CNN and the others do a better job overall of delivering the news.

It’s a topsy turvy world conservatives live in.

I’d rather live in the topsy turvy world that conservatives live in rather than the double-standard that liberals live their lives by.

People always complain about a liberal media, but if the media were actually liberal we would have known a lot more of what was going on post-9/11 then we did.

Ooooo, rhetoric? Would we know more? As the elections get closer, the kos-ified left is seizing control of a once-great political party.

Interesting that John Conyers insists that it’s the Jews who caused 9/11, not the Jihadists. What about the 9/11 deniers, like former AAR’s Mike Malloy? Or the idiots at “911 Truth”?

They spout out wild, crazy conspiracy-theory stories and say that 9/11 didn’t happen and that it’s all Bush’s fault. Sounds like we would’ve known more bullshit to me, not more facts and evidence. These same people then have the nerve to call the news network FAUX News. Seriously.

Tatemani – go take a big long look in the mirror my friend, and repeat that sentence over and over and over again. Then maybe you’ll get it.

Look sweetie, I believed what you do when I was a kid too.

Too bad you lost your way and fell into the hate-is-okay-if-it-benefits-me trap, sweetie.

Like the hate from the left? Such as the new “Death of a President” Bush assassination movie?

The kos-fied left pretending that their wildest dreams are coming true. How pathetic. And hateful.

Oh, there are plenty of right wingers who would have you believe the Jews are responsible for 9/11. Crazy isn’t limited to one end of the spectrum, and the democrats have plenty of explaining to do for their support of this immoral war.

Bush as Martyr?

That’s the Neofascist right’s wet dream, not the Left’s.

I bet Rove has masterbated to the idea of a Bush Assasiation.

Tatemani too. No offense.

Air America tanking does not surprise me…white males and racist trash are the main demo of talk radio thus it is all hate/fear/greed talk 27/7.

I get my news from The Daily Show where the laffs are intentional at least.

From what I’ve read, tatemani is a jackass.

I get my news from The Daily Show

Which is appropriate for your intellect … laughable.

Isn’t the democrat party symbol a jackass? Seems a perfect fit.

I think it’s fitting also that the big stars on the democrat side are comedians since their party’s such a joke. No offense. tee hee.

So you don’t think Death of a President was made to make money?

Look what sells: 24, Vince Flynn novels.

I grew tired long ago of all media windbags, be they hardline right wingers or ultra liberal lefties, as both sides are engaged in nothing more than “stunt” radio/TV, where the more outrageousness there is, so better to boost the ratings, etc… I find it far more informative to read weekly news magazines, newspapers and news websites to find out what I want to know! With very few exceptions, talk radio sucks bigtime, while The Daily Show absolutely rocks!

leigha, you are much too fine to be such a liberal….

I don’t know why people are complaining about this. After all, neither KSTP AM or KTLK FM are doing well in the local ratings either; KSTP had dropped Ron Rosenbaum and Mark O’Connel eariler this month, while Limbaugh on 100.3 FM, continues to go down the toliet, along with Hannity and Jason Lewis. So I’m gussing that the righties don’t want to admit that their own talk radio industry is being fallen on deaf ears these days. Basically, everyone is switching over to sports(ESPN radio), and general News information stations like WCCO AM and MPR. Nobody wants to listen to spin doctors and blowhards on the air.

I don’t see why all these Republicans are crowing about anything. By any measure, the party has not governed particularly well on the national level.

They are doing a better job than the Dems did in office.

Who remembers the Misery Index? Double digit inflation? Who remembers the failed attempt to get the embassy hostages out of Iran? It’s even more embarassing that this lousy former president keeps trying to open his mouth. Jimmy Carter is like a fungus: just when you think you’re rid of it, the thing pops up again -usually worse than before!

Jimmy Carter was without a doubt the worst president of the modern era. That is his legacy. It’s not hard for anyone to overcome that.

It’s 2006 and you’re citing the 1970s and Jimmy Carter? C’mon, be honest, do you really think the Bush administration and the U.S. Congress are doing a good job? It seems like it’s been one fiasco after another and, quite frankly, it’s depressing.

Carter was the worst President ever in my lifetime and I’m 67 years old! He passed the HalfWit Notch-Baby bill to cut Senior Citizens down year by year and that was so da– stupid it doesn’t even come near to a smart thing by a stupid person! The Notch-Babies were cut about $200 per month for seniors citizens who were born prior to 1930. So those who retired got cut $200 because that IDIOT was going to save Social Security. These people, those born prior to 1930 were REAL AMERICANS and had paid their dues. I’lll NEVER forgive him for that because I witnessed the NEED of those blessed people who went without because of Jimmy Carter and his degradation as an american president. The Dixie Chicks should have been ashamed of him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I’m not sure how old you are brianp, but you have to put everything into perspective, and the late 1970s and early 1980s are not that long ago. Bush is doing a MUCH BETTER JOB than that Carter idiot and Bill “lie to everyone’s face” Clinton did.

mack a doshes and joels apparently just emerged from a time machine that started at the year 2006, and missed the miserable job Reagan did, as well as the eight years of balanced budgets and bipartisan governing that Clinton managed, despite the fact that the Republican party spent eight years trying to destroy him.

Republicans are always claiming to be the party of morality, but the last truly moral man in the White House was Carter, and Republicans can’t trip over themselves fast enough to kick the man.

Started at the year 1980, rather, and emerged at the year 2006.

Who remembers double-digit inflation, you ask? Boy, do I ever! I graduated from college in 1980. Do you have any idea what it was like to try to find a job in 1980? It took me three months to get one that paid minimum wage! I just laugh when I hear today’s new college graduates complain about starting jobs that pay “only” in the twenties!

Interestingly enough, I lost that minimum-wage job six months later due to Reagan’s first round of budget cuts. I then turned around and found a better-paying job the next week. This was in March 1981, and clearly things were on the upswing already. Ronald Reagan was my hero then, and after eight years in office he was even a greater hero and remains one to this day. Jimmy Carter, on the other hand, remains in my memory as one of the nation’s biggest all-time losers.

Carter had no sense of judgement when he was in the White House, and he has even less now.

Carter wasn’t the worst prez in the world. Neither was Nixon, Regean or LBJ. It was WARREN G. HARDING in the early 1920s, the man that gaves us the Tea Pot Dome Scandal and the corrupt leadership in the GOP. I swear, the republicans in charge never cease to amaze me when it comes to getting their hands caught in the cookie jar.

I swear, the republicans in charge never cease to amaze me when it comes to getting their hands caught in the cookie jar.

Well, I’m not exactly surprised by the Democrats sticking their hands in the freezer.

Ohhhhhhh, SNAP!

Yeah, you know, I remember a little legacy Reagan left us called the recession. And another called uncontrolled national debt. And what was that little dealy of his? Oh, yeah: Iran-Contra. Multiple indictments. But it was all based on sound fiscal policies — what was it Bush Sr. called it? Oh yeah: Voodoo economics. Environmental devastation. Arming and training the Taliban, including Osama bin Laden. Supporting terrorist drug dealers against a democratically elected government. (Yep — Iran/Contra again.)

But, you know, he ended the Cole War. The same way I did, mostly by being on hand when it happened.

You seem to remember a very different Reagan than I did. But, then, I also remember a Jimmy Carter who, for all his failings, enacted strong environmental legislation. Then there were the Camp David Accords, the Panama Canal Treaties, the creation of full diplomatic relations with the People’s Republic of China, and the negotiation of the SALT II Treaty. Since leaving the presidency, he has devoted himself to building homes for those who need shelter and brokering peace and pursuing civil rights throughout the world.

He is a good, honest, honorable man, and the fact that he is spat upon while a genuine louse like Reagan gets glorified is appalling.

msparber, sounds like you have Googled up the Democratic talking points about Carter.

To listen to Jimmy C say one word about foreign policy really makes my blood boil. What a disaster he is and was to this country. I remember all to well 16% interest rates the so called “oil shortage” and that he aided the Taliban during his stint. And let’s not forget the Iran disaster and the hostages.

It is too bad that young people today don’t know what a disaster Carter was to the US and the Democrats paint him as some sort of “Fatherly” figuire they should listen to, as if he knows his posterior from a gopher hole.

I think some postings of newspaper headlines from the day might educate the young as to what a bum Carter was and is.

Those days were the absolute WORST!

Jimmy…just fade into the black abyss of “has been/never was” PLEASE!

And not one word about all my links to Reagan. Well, why defend a monster when you can kick a decent man.

And, yes, I Googled Carter — but not democratic talking points, simply refreshing my own memory. The Camp David Peace Accord was not insignificant when it happened. I won’t defend the entirety of Carter’s legacy, but he based his foreign policy on a firm belief in international human rights. Lets see, who preceded him as president? Oh, yeah. Ford. Never elected, because he stepped in when both the previous Republican president and vice president resigned in disgrace. You right wingers have a wonderful habit of pointing fingers for people who have such a spotted history.

Dear Mr. Carter:

I know you are a learned man. I know you are a man of brilliant intellect. I know you are a man of peace. I know you are a man dedicated to diplomacy. I know you are a man dedicated to courtesy. I know these things because you have told us all about it for several decades now.

Could you please explain to me why you have broken the two centuries plus protocol of a former president never criticising a sitting president? This is a severe breach of every courtesy and even borders on downright uncivility – and perhaps in a time of war – dare I say? – treason?

Since we are all so aware of your brilliance, I am positive you can explain this – so would you? Please?

I am sure that George H. W. Bush was tempted to critique Clinton, but he never did – and still hasn’t. Same can be said for President Ford. Surely he might have found something negative to say for your tenure during our time of malaise. But to this day, he never has.

Thanks so much for your time! I know how valuable your time is to you (as opposed to the rest of us).

Love ya,

Mrs. Dumb Bunny

Nice try, Mrs. Dumb Bunny. But wrong.

So I guess nobody is going to make the argument that the current administration is doing a good job.

i just bought a house at 5.875% fixed for 30 years.
gas is hovering pleasantly around $2/gallon.
i haven’t been unemployed for 1 day since graduating college 15 years ago.

there you go.

Whaddya want, a cookie too?

Oh, I see. You think that if everything is all right with you, then everything is all right.

no, i just think this “sky is falling” talk gets way out of hand, and maybe a reality check is in order. plus, that guy did ask for an argument…so from my perspective things are going pretty well right now. and i think that’s true for most people (not all, i know sometimes life deals a crappy hand).

a cookie would be nice, though.

AA was expected to tits up shortly after launch.

Al Franken and the rest of those blowhards suck, anyway.

Just my $.02.

Why in the fuck we are talking about Carter? Oh, I get it. It’s CARTER’s fault for driving Air America Radio out of business! Aw, hell, you might as well blame Clinton, Gore, Dean, Martin Sheen, Roosevelt, JFK, Andrew Johnson, Woodrow Wilson, and Kerry too. Right GOP?

Why bring up jimmah carter? Because Carter started the war with the jihadists by his weak and cowardly reaction to the iranian hostage taking for 444 days back in 1979. By wringing his hands he demonstrated to the islamofascists that america was weak and could be kicked around like some second-rate european state. It took republican presidents to convince these morons that no, this country is not a bunch of liberal sissies, we will fight and destroy you. And now carter’s had the audacity to come out of the woodwork to criticize Bush and his foreign policies as if he knows squat or has one iota of credibility when it comes to dealing with these muslim animals.

That’s why.

Bullshit. Catyer has come up because American conservatism has becomes so deranged as the result of this administration that they will grasp at any straw to crow their superiority.

Oh, wait. No, you’re right. The Muslims were so encouraged by Carter that 21 years later they flew two airplanes into the Twin Towers. Brilliant.

I have an honest question for tatemani. What should Carter have done? Invaded Iran?

Bush has committed acts of treason with his LIES to the American public and the PEOPLE HE HAS MURDERED MURDERED with his WAR OF LIES.

Perhaps THAT doesn’t effect your happy little world compusux or your World of Hate, Death & Despair Hatemani – which you feast on so lustilly- but to people with SOULS or BRAINS it’s a bit hard to take.

The NEOCONS are to blame because THEY FUNDED THE TERRORISTS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

But you see since the end of the “Cold War” it is in the Neofascists self interest to CREATE, PROMOTE, and PUBLICIZE the newest BOOGEYMAN.

It is in their best interest to have keep the American People afraid - and distracted as they LINE THEIR POCKETS.

It has been established that FDR KNEW that Pearl Harbor was going to happen.

It has ALSO been established that BUSH KNEW ABOUT THE 9/11 ATTACKS AND LET IT HAPPEN.

So continue to distract by Bashing Carter or Clinton but the fact remains that the Republicans HAVE FUCKED THIS COUNTRY UP FROM TOP TO BOTTOM.

And anyone who supports them or is fat and happy cuz they have a good interest rate and a job and can’t be bothered with the messy TRUTH- HAS BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS TOO.

You immoral, selfish, greedy, bloodthirsty pigs sicken me.

No offense.

Raindog uses hyperlinks in a very different way than I do.

I have an honest question for tatemani. What should Carter have done? Invaded Iran?

He should have gone to the UN and issued an ultimatum to Iran. Release the hostages or the U.S. would begin bombing key Iranian installations until they did. Instead, Carter did absolutely nothing. He hid out in the white house in hopes the problem would solve itself.

When the Iranians realized Ronald Reagan was going to be the next president, they released the hostages without comment. What does that tell you?

Matt: I think I mentioned this once before … I was a life-long democrat and a big Carter supporter. But when he wimped out on us with the Iranians, I voted for Reagan. They called us “Reagan Democrats.” Now they just call us “Republicans.”

I wasn’t alive when all of that happened, so I can’t speak with any authority here, but wouldn’t the Iranians have just killed the hostages if we bombed their country? And it’s not like Iran had any real infrastructure anyway, so what did we have to gain and what did they have to lose by bombing? Seemed like a pretty FUBAR situation that didn’t really have a good solution.

Just showing the terrorists we’re strong isn’t going to cut it. If they’re willing to die, it doesn’t matter much what we do. We can kill them as fast as we can, but in doing so, we’re just creating more terrorists. Unless we’re willing to kill every man, woman and child over there (and here), it isn’t going to end.

The one really big thing that the neocons don’t understand is that this is more a political battle than a miltary one. Of course we should capture/kill as many terrorists as we can. But for everyone we get, we should put up a hospital, school, police station or power plant. And we should have put 500,000 troops in Iraq, secured the country, rebuilt it at any cost, handed it over and gotten the fuck out.

I didn’t want this war, but now that we’re there, we have to go balls out. We’re set up to fail with only 125,000 troops. And now that we are failing, it’s politically impossible to send more. We do look weak to the terrorists because we are weak. By not having the courage to call for more national sacrifice, Bush made us look just as weak as Clinton did in Somalia.

Anyway, even assuming we could rebuild Iraq and set up a democracy, there is still no guarantee that a democracy in Iraq wouldn’t be anti-U.S. Look at Palestine. Lot of good democracy did us there.

Release the hostages or the U.S. would begin bombing key Iranian installations until they did.

Are you serious? Maybe Carter should simply have taken some Iranian nationals hostage and threatened to cut their throats if the hostages weren’t released.

Or maybe he should have shows them what a true man of purpose is like. He should then have killed the hostages himself. The he should have waited until hthe hostages were in the ground and then he goes after the rest of the Iranains. He kills their kids, he kills their wives, he kills their parents and their parents’ friends. He burns down the houses they live in and the stores they work in, he kills people that owe them money. And like that he should have been gone. Underground. Nobody ever seeing him since. He becomes a myth, a spook story that criminals tell their kids at night. “Rat on your pop, and Jimmy Carter will get you.” And no-one ever really believes.

That would have showed them, and America would still be number one. But Jimmy Carter ruined everything, and the smart man made the smart choice, and voted for a former B-list Hollywood actor because he was able to act like a cowboy.

When Reagan won in a landslide, the message the iranians received was that america was united behind a man who would do whatever it took to get the hostages back. Reagan never had to fire a shot. It was the perception of united strength that enabled us to succeed against the iranians. The war against the islamic jihadists is being made extremely difficult because democrats believe its more important for them to regain political power by attacking a sitting president and undermining our efforts in a world war than to stand united as americans to defeat the islamic terrorists. This is nothing short of treason.

All right, back to my policy of not responding to you. I prefer to have my discussion with people who aren’t simply trolling for the opportunity to spit on half of the country.

This is nothing short of treason.

Really? Do you really believe that speech and debate can be treason?

When Franklin D. Roosevelt was running for re-election in 1944, his opponent Thomas Dewey called him a “tired old man” who was unfit to lead the country. What do you want to bet that Roosevelt never accused Dewey of treason?

I’m still waiting for someone to make the argument that the current administration is doing a good job.

Matt, it doesn’t help either that, along with their catastrophically bad military decisions, the Bush administration thoroughly FUBARed the reconstruction by sending people based on loyalty to the party line, rather than experience or expertise. But, you know, people who actually knew what they were doing but voted Democrat can’t be trusted, because they’re essentially treasonous. Better to send a 24-year-old real estate salesman to reopen Iraq’s stock exchange (”I don’t have a finance background,” he said when offered the job).

Oh wow. I never heard that one. 24 years old?

Has anyone here read Cobra II by Michael Gordon and Bernard Trainor? It chronicles the Iraq war planning starting at Sept. 11. I’m only about 1/8 of the way through and I already want to rip my hair out.

It’s pretty maddening, yes. There’s also the fact that Rumsfeld forbade any post-war occupation planning:

In fact, said Brig. Gen. Mark Scheid, Rumsfeld said “he would fire the next person” who talked about the need for a post-war plan.

Ever read FDR’s pre-1945 post-war plan for europe? How about the criticisms of invading France even though we were actually attacked by Japan?

Because they don’t exist.

General Trainor is a partisan leftist and a traitor. Even PBS and CNN figured that out and quit having him on their shows to comment on the war. And they’re no friends of this administration.

When did 90% of MnSpeak become old men shaking their canes at the kids in their yard?

First, yes, America had an occupation plan at the end of WWII.

Secondly, General Trainor is a multiply decorated lifelong marine who became a journalist after he retired. Trainor was on PBS in April, in March. CNN also had Trainor in March, in April. I found these with just a quick search of the Intertruck, and found nothing saying that either network had repudiated Trainor or would not have him as a commentator anymore.

One would think that your experience in the service would have taught you some respect for people who dedicated their life to it, but, obviously, when it contradicts the needs of this particularly administration, you’re willing to throw accusations of treason at anyone. Have you no shame?

I respond because Tatemani is spreading disinformation, and discussions can’t happen without real facts. It is rather startling to see a partisan hack complaining that someone else — someone with a higher military rank (unless tatami was a three-star general), should be discounted when he discusses military facts because he is a partisan hack.

And anyone who supports them or is fat and happy cuz they have a good interest rate and a job and can’t be bothered with the messy TRUTH- HAS BLOOD ON THEIR HANDS TOO.

You immoral, selfish, greedy, bloodthirsty pigs sicken me.

raindog….you have no idea who i am or what i stand for. yet you just called me a pig. re-read that. somebody you don’t know, and have never met, you just called a pig. god i hate the internet sometimes.

your posts are a joke. whatever message you had has been lost in your hate-spewed posts. you should just go away, you contribute NOTHING to this forum.

Maybe it’s just because PBS and CNN, concerned about providing balanced, proportional coverage, (come on, dream along with me), will have General Trainor on again after they’ve presented several thousand retired Marine officers on who don’t agree with him.

compubox – I’m sorry but you made your own bed on that one.

And “Reagan Democrat” is just another way of saying “Jews for Hitler”.

Let me explain. People like compubox and hatemani FEAR the Bully (i.e. Bush, Hitler, etc.) and because they feel WEAK and VULNERABLE they choose to ALIGN themselves with EVIL in an effort to protect themselves. They feel to powerless to stand up to tyranny and thus embrace it.

It’d be like a Native American – having witnessed through history the atrocities committed on their heritage – choosing to EMBRACE the forces of American Imperialism rather than fight them.

It is a denial of the self.

It is self-hatred.

It is sad.

No offense.

your posts are a joke. whatever message you had has been lost in your hate-spewed posts. you should just go away, you contribute NOTHING to this forum.

Oh, man, that comment takes in so many MnSpeakers. Self included at times.

tatemani, based on his comments over the weekend, is Colin Powell a traitor, too?

And, Germany declared war on the U.S. before we did on it.

I think Al Franken and Rush are both pretty entertaining, but both Sean Hannity and Randi Rhodes are like nails on a chalkboard to me.

Let me explain. People like compubox and hatemani FEAR the Bully

I see that in addition to history, math, logic, economics and english, you also flunked psychology.

Haven’t they been saying that “Air America” is failing since it started?

The problem with talk radio / Fox news is the echo chamber effect. Rush makes something up (which he does on a regular basis), and it gets repeated until some people think it is true.

By the way, making things up is an age-old debating technique not new and not practiced only on the right. This is why the “media” is important to seperate the facts from the lies. THIS is the problem with the news media today. The immediacy makes it more important to get it out rather than checking the facts. So, someone like the guy who claimed to kill JonBenet could get 24/7 news coverage without one network hesitating. Hello? Echo!!!

Tom: I think Colin Powell spent too much time with the liberal career bureaucrats at the state department.

And Saddam Hussein declared war on us, indeed had never ended his hostilities towards us from the 1991 Gulf War when we invaded Iraq in 2003.

WOW…..from Al Franken to Jimmy Carter to “islamofascists” to Reagan democrats to Iraq to …………??? Hey Matt and Msparber, keep on preaching to the choir because much of what you’re saying makes sense!

Hard to know how to answer that, except Bush senior was smart enough not to carry on the Kuwait war into Iraq. Maybe he had better advisors, such as Powell, that he listened to.

And, Iraq attacked Kuwait, not the U.S., but don’t let the details bother you. Oh yeah, on the attacking Kuwait (and Iran, for that matter) there was a certain U.S. official who’d sort of let Saddam think that was okay with us.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. You should know that Tom.

Seems it’s Bush junior who doesn’t know that, Tate. Look where we are now with Iran.

Raindog, you are so insipid sometimes, it really is disturbing.

Remember this thing from history class called World War II? As you may recall, we were fighting the Nazis. Who did we side with? A nasty dictator name Joseph Stalin.

Why did we side with Stalin? Because our goal was taking out the bigger threat, Nazi Germany.

What did we do next? We took down Soviet Russia.

Play connect the dots using today’s terms.

Seriously, sometimes liberals are so stupid, it’s disturbing. No wonder why it has been Conservativism, not Liberalism that has brought down the world’s most tyrannical regimes, freed people, brought peace and stability to areas full of war. Liberalism just doesn’t have that kind of track record. And when it comes down to it, when push comes to shove, Americans don’t trust liberals to protect our nation’s duty to protect its citizens.

No wonder why it has been Conservativism, not Liberalism that has brought down the world’s most tyrannical regimes, freed people, brought peace and stability to areas full of war.

Well, not to trouble you too much with facts, but here goes:

World War I: Thomas Woodrow Wilson (Democrat)
World War II: Franklin Delano Roosevelt (Democrat)
Korean War: Harry S. Truman (Democrat)
Vietnam War: Truman again!

Now, not all of these military actions were well-advised, or grand shining examples of the history of the Democratic party, but they also show conservatives haven’t been the only ones pursuing the end of tyranny, the freedom of foreign peoples, or sough to end violence in lands at war.

But don’t let the inherent intelligence of your Republican mind be troubled by little things like facts, or the truth, or, you know, any of the basic details of history.

Honestly, I know there are educated conservatives out there who make cases based on reason and fact, rather than simply tossing out unsupported, nakedly partisan nonsense — but do they bother to post to MnSpeak?

*SNORT*

Educated?

I said CONSERVATISM and LIBERALISM in my post. Do you not have a grasp that they are not necessarily tied in with Republican and Democrat?

So, I beg of you, don’t let your little insipid mind devoid of common political science knowledge be troubled by little things like definitions, the truth, or any of the basic details of history. Back at ya! OH SNAP!

I know there are educated conservatives out there who make cases based on reason and fact, rather than simply tossing out unsupported, nakedly partisan nonsense — but do they bother to post to MnSpeak?

POTO made a good point. Anyhow, where are the educated liberals? I’m not seeing them either, and they are in greater number over here posting all sorts of rubbish. msparber is alright. The rest of them run around calling conservatives nazis. As if that isn’t already a liberal talking point, or hasn’t been said before.

Oh, Jesus. And conservatives accuse liberals of being snide, unpleasant, angry, and crazy.

By the way, Oh Snapping you’re own post? Bad form. Especially when you’re so desperately responding to getting called on your refusal to research your facts before posting your ill-considered opinions.

Ironically, though, republicans are not necessarily conservative and democrats are not necessarily liberal. All the democrats I listed were liberals, but I can think of one important example of your point.

Lincoln was a liberal, but was a member of the Republican party. And what did he ever do? Oh, yeah, he freed people.

Again, it shows you don’t know your history!

Do you know what Lincoln did during the civil war? He suspended civil liberties. Know that lady Cindy Sheehan that you all fawn over? He’d have her arrested and locked up. He said that there was too much at stake to preserve the United States.

Nowadays, these Islamo-fascists are TELLING us what they are going to do to us, and you all scream about them listening in on their conversations and monitoring their behavior.

And Lincoln was a conservative. Today’s Republican party stemmed from back when the Conservatives split. The dividing issue between Lincoln’s “New Republicans” and the “Whigs” was slavery. And surprise, surprise, Democrats were, of course, the party about keeping slavery around. Now that they can’t do that anymore, they’d rather keep black people sucking on the government’s nipples to keep them down in a never-ending cycle, while the elite Democrats hobnob at cocktail parties and sneer at Conservatives who continue to get elected.

Honestly, the Democrats probably are going to face a split. Howlin’ Howard Dean and the dignified Joe Lieberman in the same party? It’s sad how the party of JFK, Adlai Stephensen, and Daniel Patrick Moynahan became the party of Cynthia McKinney, Michael Moore, and (the thread’s original topic) Al Franken. There’s nothing really wrong about liberals being liberal. It’s more about the crackpot liberals who believe that September 11th was cooked up by Bush, or that AIDS was created by the Reagan administration.

smacarr, you fail to recognize what goes on. You can trot out whatever examples that you like, but the truth is that conservatives blow whistles and go after the extremists on their side of the aisle. Though the unhinged liberals depict the GOP as a party of angry, bigoted, racist, and off the walls, in actuality, the unhinged left have become the caricature that they have tried to paint the GOP as. It’s kind of funny that the Democrats won’t speak out against the lunatics in their party, but it’s obvious that they are desparate to win, and know that they can’t alienate the nutters.

There are many interesting parallels over the course of 150 years. I suggest you take an American History course and an Introduction to Political Science course. If you have, go back and retake them. If you work for a big, bad, evil corporation lead by Republicans, they might even pay for you to take it.

PS: Did you research your facts? Doesn’t sound like it, which is why you got the “oh snap”. You refused to even take a look at the simple definition and then grudgingly admitted it (albeit with a “but monkey”) after I called you out on it.

I think you mean “Butt monkey.” And go ahead and do some research of your own. Are you honestly denying that Lincoln was a liberal and then telling me a need to hit the books?

Well, go ahead and prove me wrong. Demonstrate that any of the democratic presidents I listed were, in fact, conservatives.

Oh, SNAP.

Just keep digging your hole. Is it fun doing that?

I mean “but monkey”. It’s a statement where someone says something that is contradictory — the second part of their statement doesn’t match the first part.

Now, why are you trying to declare Lincoln as being a liberal? Why would you want to collect the credit for him? If Lincoln were a Democrat, he’d be dumped faster that Joe Lieberman is right now. All the Democrats would be howling over their civil liberties being suspended. Don’t try to take credit for something that didn’t happen.

Where on earth do you get your revisionist history from? Wishful thinking?

Interesting debate. Why am I not surprised that it was hijacked near the beginning? I could’ve sworn it was about Air America.

My own 2 cents on the whole “Lincoln” issue: there’s no question about it in my mind. He was a conservative. He suspended civil liberties while he was in office. He didn’t tolerate dissenters, and they were hauled off. He was doing everything in his power to keep the union together. History tends to look back at him as being a “gentle” conservative, but that’s more his mannerisms than what he actually did. Do you think a President would get away with saying the following today?

“Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale and undermine the military are Saboteurs, and should be arrested, exiled, or hanged.” -President Lincoln

I don’t know anyone of a liberal mindset today who would support something like that, much less SAY something like that. But Lincoln had to do what he had to do.

Here is a good article about Lincoln and the effect he has had on the Conservative movement. He wasn’t a liberal, folks. Sorry to disappoint. He founded the Republican party and the basis of what it stood for then has carried over to today.

Lincoln was obviously a Log Cabin Republican.

In Lincoln’s defense regarding the sedition act, in times of war presidents have done some pretty desperate things to ensure the survival of the state. FDR’s internment of the japanese comes to mind. As terrible as that act was, I don’t think anyone really blames FDR for his good intentions of just trying to protect the nation. Interestingly though, when Bush tries to collect intelligence on islamic terrorists, to likewise protect the nation, armies of democrats are willing to defend the terrorists’ right to privacy. Which is why this generation of democrats should never be given the power to lead this country.

A few sources: Here. Here. Here. Here.

Im Hatemani’s world the Dem’s desire to protect the Rights & Privacy of the American People adds up to Treason.

Like all Neocon Nonthinkers he equates anyone who disagrees with Him or his Good Buddy Bush, as a Terrorist.

Which is why his generation of Fascists should be thrown out on their asses.

Sad and pathetic.

No offense.

Im Hatemani’s world the Dem’s desire to protect the Rights & Privacy of the American People adds up to Treason.

Wasn’t Timothy McVeah an american citizen? Yeah, I think he was. Think there aren’t any connections between Al-Qaida and american muslims? This is why the democrats are too stupid to lead, especially at a time of war.

Like all Neocon Nonthinkers …

Neocon of course, is liberal code for Jew. It’s no coincidence that all the PNACers are former democrats and pro-Israeli Jews. So raindog’s beef with them can’t be because they’re conservative republicans.

Only congress can declare war. Since they haven’t declared war on “terrorism” – we’re not at war. Thus, any actions by President Bush in this regard would be against not only the WORDS of the constitution, but also the spirit of it.

Further, if you would like Hillary Clinton or some other democratic president to have the EXACT same powers, then keep on keeping on. Because once they are engraned there is no going back. There is no — these powers should be granted to conservatives only — clause in the constitution.

… if you would like Hillary Clinton or some other democratic president to have the EXACT same powers,

I keep liberals saying this but that’s the least of my concerns. What boggles my mind is, since when has the left ever been concerned about our Constitution? They’ve built a whole legal infrastructure to re-define it’s provisions whenever possible.

Why do you think we’re called conservatives and you’re not?

Because “conservatives” have a strict interpretation of the constitutions gray areas and “liberals” have a more open interpretation.

Much of what is currently occurring should appall conservatives, but it does not. If “liberals” call out about breaking constitutional boundaries, then you know something is bad!

Much of what this administration is doing goes against ACTUAL WORDS in the constitution. Things like:

“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”

There are gray areas in there, but tapping American Citizen’s phones without FISA warrants would not fit in those areas. Again, if you don’t want a Democratic President arbitrarily deciding who to wiretap, we should not let ANY President do it!

Again, if you don’t want a Democratic President arbitrarily deciding who to wiretap, we should not let ANY President do it!

You’re mischaracterizing this program. No phones are being tapped. That’s a misnomer. The NSA has the ability to monitor frequencies over which millions of conversations are taking place. They also have the ability to home in on conversations amongst these millions to detect key words or phrases that are being said … phrases like alah akbar, or “did you bring the dynamite?”

This is not the same as tapping phones. But, you knew that of course. It’s just easier to make the facts sound sinister by not telling the truth. Which lends credence to my assertion that you guys should never be given political power.

You’re mischaracterizing this program. No phones are being tapped. That’s a misnomer. The NSA has the ability to monitor frequencies over which millions of conversations are taking place. They also have the ability to home in on conversations amongst these millions to detect key words or phrases that are being said … phrases like alah akbar, or “did you bring the dynamite?”

Sure Tatemani. Like John Lennon was a threat to the nation in the 1970s while protesting Vietnam, or the fact that the DNC headquaters at the Watergate hotel was bugged by Nixon’s relection staff members until they got their ass’s busted by a security guard on duty that night, or the fact that MLK Jr.s home was illegally wiretapped by J Egar Hoover from the FBI and U.S. AG Bobby Kennedy since they had concerns about the black community, regarding the civil rights movement. This NSA program has nothing do with National Security, but to spy on average americans that have criticism against our policies overseas and at home. The Bush Crime Family and their Neo-Con sluts are doing the exact same thing that Nixon did in 1973, which later resutled in tricky dick’s downfall from public office. It’s just a sham that the republicans like you have no remember on recent events in history on the subject of these matters. Pathetic. No morals and ethics.

This NSA program has nothing do with National Security, but to spy on average americans that have criticism against our policies overseas and at home.

That’s just plain bullshit. Fortunately, it doesn’t sell. And going back 35 years to find an example of republican corruption is a stretch. That’s so long ago I was a democrat then.