Secrets of the City

And if this guy driving without insurance ended up killing somebody, we’d be here saying “OMG Y DUN WE TAEK TEHSE PPL OFF TEH STREETZ!!1″

Lock him up, but keep him safe, FFS.

I see a massive lawsuit against the Sherburne Sheriffs department.

They let an inmate from a Super Maximum security prison mingle with the general population in a county jail. I’m not sure why this would be standard protocal. I would have to imagine that there isn’t a law officer in the state of MN that doesn’t know that Oak Park Heights is one the highest security prisons in the United States.

I feel really sorry for this guy and his family.

Since when do people get locked up for not having proof of insurance?
They don’t even require you to show proof of insurance anymore when you renew your tabs.

It seems he had other moving violations on his record and that is a reason they kept him, per the Strib.

What do they consider “carrying a history of convictions for moving violations”? If this is outstanding warrents for unresolved issues I totally agree with hauling him in but if this is a wreckless driving conviction where he has served the penalty why would you haul him in? Or is this some speeding tickets? Hopefully we will get some more information on this one.

if he had a prior conviction for driving w/o proof, it is a gross misdemeanor charge, that would be enough to hold him. or if he had a history of violations and not showing up in court.

I hate to inject classism into this store but if this was a housewife driving her Lexus she would have never been pulled over for having a cracked windshield.

You know those Muslims are taught to kill. It’s a faith of hate.

Aw shit, wrong article. Carry on.

yeah, simpleton, you’re probably right, but what’s your point?

according to the PP he was ticketed once in 04 and twice in 99 for not having proof of insurance. he never did anything to endanger anyone (ie, reckless driving, dui, etc.)

this penal system is so f_cked up. they hold a guy for 14 hours for no proof of insurance (!), meanwhile crack dealers in mpls operate in an open air market.

usually i side with the cops, but i hope this guy’s family gets $10million.

I guess my point is that there is no justice for poor people.
Not that this is a revelation but sometimes we need to be reminded.

well, that confirms what I previously wrote; that he had prior driving w/o insurance violations within the last 10 years — a gross misdemeanor, which is why he would be held.

IMO it is silly to play that “this guy gets locked up while murderers roam the streets” line — the officers are just doing there job. As champs said, if they let him go and there was a problem, then everyone would be screaming in the other direction. The responsibility is with the guy that murdered him.

spaceman…I’m sure there’s a point that you’re trying to make, but it’s not very well formed in your post.. When you said ” the officers are just doing there (sic) job”, were you referring to arresting him for lack of insurance, or for putting him in lock down with a murderer? Either you are a police apologist, or am I missing something.

i meant his prev. violation was in 02, not 04. no biggie.

come on spaceman, it’s not like they suspected this guy was drunk and then he went out and plowed into a family…if the cops ticketed him and let him go, THEN he got in an accident i guarantee nobody would say “wait, he didn’t have proof of insurance? he should’ve been in prison!!!” that’s ridiculous.

i agree the cops have a “right” to hold him, but if they’re going to lock people up for this then no more b!tching about overcrowded prisons, under-manned police forces, lack of funding, etc…

don’t be antagonistic, g rote. there was nothing wrong with spaceman’s post.

compubox is a hypocrit (sic)

Someone needs to clarify something for me…Did he have prior convictions for driving without insurance or driving without proof of insurance?

And did they charge him with driving without insurance or proof of insurance?

I’m guessing there is a difference.

3 convictions for driving without insurance. He did not have insurance in this case (his driving record is horrid– I’m sure if he could get insurance it would cost $1000 a month). His brother claims the truck was insured, but the victim was not.

It’s a gross misdemeanor– so the guy had to be locked up and see a judge. With the priors, bail would probably have been set.

Either way– a lot of questions about why a guy who was waiting for a court hearing for assaulting an inmate in St. Cloud was put in with the general population in a county jail.

yes, g rote, arresting him for no proof of insurance with prior convictions. police didn’t put him in “lock down with a murderer” — they handed custody over to the sheriff’s department, who then had responsibility. And I never said anything about “prison” which is a bit different than overnight in the county jail . . .

As far as being a police “apologist”, it seems you use that with negative connotation, but yeah, exactly, I’m siding with the police officer that arrested him for violating the law — let’s not blame this on him and then condemn the whole system while we’re at it. Just don’t read into that too much and think that I’m not aware this is a horrible tragedy.

btw, I think I’ve got a bit of credibility on this subject, as I used to be a police officer, as well as a crime victim advocate. And I’ve got about 300% more objectivity than most people on either “side”.

and yes, simpleton, there is a difference, but without proof is still a GM– I think they both are.

Jason, You don’t insure people in Minnesota you only insure cars.

sorry g rote, I attributed the prison comment to you, when it was compubox’s . . .

I unequivocably agree that he should have been locked up for committing a GM and that the arresting officer was doing his job. I also trust that the overwhelming majority of police officers are good people who want to do the right thing.

It still seems to me that you’re not willing to address that someone other than the murderer shoulders some blame for the situation that was created. It’s akin to saying that people who put trained pit bulls in caged death matches are not to blame for the dogs getting killed, but rather the dogs should be held solely accountable.

Yeah, there are questions to answer. But mainly I wanted to try to debunk this “there was no reason for him to be in jail” vibe.

On the sheriff’s end, he has been quoted as saying his department was supplied no information that indicated he needed to be in isolation. Transfers like this happen all the time. Daily. I don’t know what the usual procedures are but it may be the DOC that has the most questions to answer.

Either way, sweeping generalizations just bug me because they do absolutely no one any good.

By the way, what was with that “This just in . . ” thing on the other thread?

I looked up the code and it looks like he did not necessarily commit a gross misdomeaner. Here is the related code.

A driver who is not the owner of the vehicle may not be convicted under this section unless the driver knew or had reason to know that the owner did not have proof of insurance required by this section, provided that the driver provides the officer with the name and address of the owner at the time of the demand or complies with subdivision 3.

I wonder why this was not applied. I’m wondering why spaceman does not know this part of the rule.

So I think we’re right back to where we were when I started this thing. The guy shouldn’t be on the road, but he didn’t deserve to be locked up with a killer. If MNspeak had linked directly to the story, we wouldn’t be having this discussion — but maybe that was the point.

simpleton, I’m not sure why you assume I don’t know that part of the law . . . you’ll notice it says “convicted” not “arrested” or “cited”. He would have had to present that defense in court.

You are also assuming that he did not admit to knowing there was no insurance, when he may have told the officer he knew the vehicle was uninsured. And you are assuming he complied with the law by giving the officer the name and address of the owner as required.

That’s a lot of assumptions. And you know what happens when we assume, simpleton.

Eddie Murphy as Buckwheat and Joe Piscopo as Ted Koppel from SNL March 12th, 1983 It’s much better in the video format, but I can’t find it on the web. I nub nou!

I would prefer that we have a spirted & uniformed debate all afternoon. A pissing match, if you will.

I meant to say uninformed.

champs, you really think that would have helped?

uniformed would be more fun — i’ll wear my sailor suit.

Spaceman is a Russian spy!

Spaceman…does this sound familiar?

But mainly I wanted to try to debunk this “there was no reason for him to be in jail” vibe.

I think that there is a reason.

Hmm, so if the vehicle was insured you have a huge plate of West Nile virus crow on your plate.

Subd. 3. Later production of information by driver who
is not owner. If the driver is not the owner of the vehicle,
the driver shall, no later than the date and time specified in
the citation for the driver’s first court appearance, provide
the district court administrator with proof of insurance or the
name and address of the owner. Upon receipt of the name and
address of the owner, the district court administrator shall
communicate the information to the law enforcement agency.

did someone say sailor suit?

I wonder if the whole debate is on the wrong issue. Wouldn’t this pole-wielding inmate have killed someone, anyone, if it wasn’t for our uninsured motorist? Shouldn’t the questions be: Why is it so easy to rip a handicapped bar off the wall? Why didn’t Oak Park Heights tell Sherburne County about the inmate’s history?

This isn’t the first time that communication has been poor between law enforcement agencies. It could very well have been that they were aware of the history, but thoght they could “handle” him. Maybe the history wasn’t communicated to all officers…too many factors.

yeah, jderusha, that is exactly my point — pointing fingers towards the arresting officer seems to be pointing fingers in the wrong direction.

i don’t quite follow what you are getting at, simpleton, but the fact is that from everything that I’ve read, I don’t see anywhere the police department screwed up. This is a horrible situation . . . but . . . what are you getting at?

There are lots of procedural issues that were messed up on this one. Hopefully it will push some reform in how prisoners are transfered and the communication between different jurisdictions.

my point is that yeah, they have every right under the law to hold him, but it seems like a waste of resources.

how do we know his driving record is atrocious? maybe it is, but all I saw was 3 prior tickets for no proof of insurance. if he’s got a ton of reckless driving’s maybe a night in jail, prison, the slammer, the clink, the big house (can i stop now spaceman?) would do him some good.

g rote, why am i a hypocrite?

I’m saying there is a chance the officer overreacted and arrested him instead of allowing him to provide name and address of the vehicle owner as the law is written.

You will not accept this because you would never change your position on something once you have stated it because you think it would make you look like less of a man.

how do we know his driving record is atrocious?

I know because jderusha said it was so.

I was the reporter for WCCO covering this story last night. His driving record is a nightmare. A sample from 1997-1999:
5/16/1997 SPEED
5/1/1998 EXHIBITION DRIVING
5/2/1998 UNREASONABLE ACCELERATION
7/29/1998 SPEED
A8/1/1999 NO DRIVER LICENSE IN POSSESSION
6/10/1999 FAIL TO PROVIDE INSURANCE INFO – CONVICTION
8/29/1999 EQUIPMENT VIOLATION
8/29/1999 FAIL TO PROVIDE INSURANCE INFO – CONVICTION

So nothing in the last 7 years?

I dare say his driving record is better than most of the people we elect to office.

None of this would even be on his insurance anymore.

I’m not saying there’s nothing in the last 7 years. I said here’s “a sample.” Geez. I’m not a comprehensive database. That’s all I’ve got. My database only goes through 2002.

Off to do my paid reporting job now.

i would like to see something a little more current than last century, jderusha. christ, i had a couple speeding tix when i was 17, too.

i like how you added “CONVICTION”. ha ha, i can hear your CCO soundbytes with a locking jail cell as you throw that on the screen.

ps, if you were really the reporter from last night, then i’m don shelby.

5/2/1998 UNREASONABLE ACCELERATION

ahahahaha.
oh also, maybe this was meant to be a wakeup call to people without insurance. “Make sure you got your papers or you’re a dead man!”

You know, like Guliani cracking down on littering and jaywalking to make NYC safer.

so now we are heading ad hominem . . . it’s getting a little stale in here. Sure I’d change my position if there was evidence of that — but I haven’t seen any, only your assumptions. You latched on to one part of the law and are speculating, nothing more.

There are a ton of variables we could sit and speculate about: did he admit the vehicle was uninsured, did he provide the officer the required information, does the brother actually own the vehicle, was there department policies in play that affected the officer’s actions, ect, ect.

I’m just wondering why you are so hellbent on blaming the poilce department. It’s really weird.

The arresting officers were within their legal right to hold him. They didn’t have to. They shuffled their feet and didn’t get paperwork done in time for him to get a hearing that day so he could go home and go back to work the next day.

The real tragedy is that this kids is dead mostly because a violent convicted felon was allowed to roam around with drunk drivers and jay walkers and likely no one thought that a prisoner transfered from Oak Park Heights was a potential threat.

Don’s on vacation. But I really am the reporter from last night. Welcome to MNSpeak. I’ve been here awhile. (And I copied that from the database- I didn’t add “conviction”.

I’m sure someone can do free research for this message board, but that someone is no longer me. Good luck compubox and Simpleton. Sorry for trying to provide some actual facts. Continue your uninformed speculation without my interference!

well, that’s cool jderusha. my apologies. it’s just that traffic stops from 9 years ago seems kinda trivia, especially considering the outcome.

space, you’re right…their could be a hundred reasons why he could’ve been held that we don’t know about, and will probably come to the surface in the next day or 2. good posting.

Unreasonable Acceleration is what you are often issued instead of speeding in Minneapolis because it is a violation of a city ordinance so the ticket fee all goes to Minneapolis instead of having to be split with Hennepin county. Also doesn’t go on your insurance because its a code violation like a parking ticket.

Wait, you went from ” . . . you have a huge plate of West Nile virus crow on your plate” to “the arresting officers were within their legal right to hold him”? Wow.

They didn’t have to hold him and the charge would have likely been dismissed but the cops can do whatever they want. That isn’t why the kid was killed thou. It was the terrible communication between corrections and the county jail.

This is a really unfulfilling way to spend the day. Exchanging messages with people that I would probably not talk to in real life for a moment. i think it may be time for a break.

I totally agree with you there Simpleton.

I meant in regards to the terrible communications between the jail.

One thing I guess I hadn’t taken into account.

If that kid hadn’t been there that monster would have killed someone else so that makes the reason for him being there inconsequential anyhow.

So wait, compubox is Don Shelby? What a way to spend your vacation, Don!

I hope you enjoy filling in on the radio, jderusha. Please don’t leave MNspeak. We need you.

So now that we’ve drawn that out way to long . . . can I get meta for a second, simpleton? I don’t know how many times I’ve seen you reference that this site is no fun — sincerely asking — why do you come here?

Would you really not talk to me in person — and is that an indictment on me or that you wouldn’t talk to anyone?

I have 4-5 hours a day to kill at work where I have little to nothing to do, that’s mostly why I peruse and occasionally there are interesting discussions.

Max, Jason, Matt, TB, Leigha, and many others do have insightful things to say and that are informative and often funny. Spaceman would I talk to you probably because people in real life are usually much more congenial and interesting.

Oh Reader, I’m not leaving MNSpeak. I was just intending to leave this thread!

Just as an aside, I wish there were more mnspeak community concern about this incident – and this poor guy and his family – than about the meerkats at the zoo. Kudos to those who have contributed so far.

actually I’m much more congenial but less interesting

Elk River PD just sent a news release: Moyle’s brother’s truck wasn’t insured. He brought insurance documents to the PD, but that policy was cancelled in April 2004 for no payments made. Moyle admitted to cops that he had no insurance.

Man, anotherZooMember, you are right.

Maybe we sould discuss (as sorta suggested above) how to better install handicap bars or maybe ideas for sedating violent prisoners?

I find that using larger bolts tends to make bars stay better in walls.

But for real, I agree with you aZM.

I think we should start writing letters to our lawmakers about mandatory minimum bolt sizes in our state’s prisons.

I think those bars should be in all bathroom stalls, handicapped or otherwise. They’re a great help when you really need to get some traction.

lol g rote. So true.

jfc

lol @ Forbes magazine for thinking Steve Marsh knows anything about dating in mpls-st.paul.

The guy getting beaten to death is a disgrace. Negligence all around that resulted in a terrible tragedy. If law enforcement was doing it’s job, this never would have hapened. It’s that simple.

Having spent 20 minutes in handcuffs yesterday I feel I can speak as an authority on the subject of crime and punishment.

OK, I have nothing to really “speak” about with my new-found authority and really just wanted to bring up the fact that I was in handcuffs yesterday as I am still feeling victimized.

Carry on.

Please elaborate.

I’m in handcuffs now. And a hooker is rifling through my pants looking for my wallet.

God damn you, hooker! Once she finds my wallet, I hope she doesn’t notice the samurai sword hanging on my wall.

matt, the elaboration is here.

Thanks spaceman. Now if only these psychological wounds would heal…

Just translate your trauma into a bondage fetish.

In reply to Mpls Simpleton- I was just in Minneapolis this weekend and got pulled over for traveling 73 in a 60 MPH zone on I-94. I was also cited for unreasonable acceleration. Im thinking I can fight this because I was not laying tire or accelerating fast. Do you or anyone else know if I can fight this successfully?