Secrets of the City

it ain’t the kids yo.

the key ingredient:

Reduced funding for police and community programs. Localities often complain they don’t have enough money; now the chorus is getting louder. Tight budgets and an emphasis on terrorism have shifted federal and state money from police and programs for youths. “It should be no surprise that the streets are more violent,” Minneapolis Mayor R.T. Rybak says. Since 2003, he says, Minneapolis has lost at least $35 million a year in state funding for city programs.

Minneapolis police estimate that this year, juveniles will account for 63% of all suspects in violent and property offenses there, up from 45% in 2002.

It’s the kids.

Ask yourself who runs the cities (hint, liberal democrats) and whether there’s any correlation between high crime and the liberal democrats’ undying belief that all societal problems can be solved with more money and likewise, a failure to solve problems like crime can be attributed to a lack of money.

How much is enough? Would $35 million do it? How about $50 million. If you got it can you promise the problem would go away? You can’t? Then it ain’t about money.

Well, where is the program that costs nothing to administer and will solve the crime problem?

Lets hear your big ideas Buckwheat.

I don’t have any big ideas. I can just move and say I told you so. It’s the people who’ve destroyed this society with their failed liberal ideas that have the explaining to do. And since they’re still in charge, they can live with it while the rest of us just leave.

Cut and run, Buckwheat? Say it ain’t so!

Anyone that blames the liberals or the conservatives exclusively for the problems in society is mentally ill or mentally incompetent.

I guess if buckwheat doesn’t like it he can move to hmm…Saudi Arabia? I’m not sure where he thinks he is going to move to escape crime.

Yeah, so what buckwheat is saying is that he blames liberals for all the problems but has absolutely no ideas about how to solve them himself, so he’s just going to up and leave instead.

So then … I guess it’s ok to fault ‘liberals’ for trying because … uh, they spent YOUR money or something like that? Sure man …

Plus, I haven’t lived here very long, but weren’t the ‘liberals’ still in charge not too long ago when crime was nice and low and things were safe and cozy and whatever dreamland existed prior to ‘liberals’ fucking it up?

I’ll take full responsibility. I moved to St Paul, and Minneapolis has gone to hell. Sorry! St Paul is great though!

I’m guessing you don’t live just north dowtown between Earl and 35E where crime seems to be rampant.

Crime Map

Nope. (And that map just shows narcotic crimes.) I don’t know if I would say 38 is rampant except compared to the rest of the city…

(And it was a joke…)

This is way beyond a liberal/conservative problem and you can’t BLAME juveniles for this. How about we start from the ground up and stop the ADULTS who are recruiting them into this? Why don’t we clean up the neighborhoods so they grow up in a good place where they have hope for something better than street life? Why don’t we get strict on parents to stay involved in their kid’s life so they stay on the right track? This is a problem everyone needs to solve.

Ask yourself who runs the cities (hint, liberal democrats) and whether there’s any correlation between high crime and the liberal democrats’ undying belief that all societal problems can be solved with more money

I would hazard a guess that the correlation is actually between having many thousands of people living within a few square miles of each other, but then, I’m no sociologist.

The idea of cities run conservative-style is quite hilarious, with everyone responsible only to themselves, and packing to boot. City-dwellers prefer try to act as a group, because our close proximity means we must. This means if kids are being raised in an environment that is turning them into gangsters, we try to solve them problem at the root instead of throwing everyone in jail. This costs money – fine by me.

Didn’t St. Paul have it’s funding reduced just as much as Minneapolis? If that is the case doesn’t that pretty much rule out the loss of funding excuse Ryback and the rest of the greenie libs in Mpls whine about? Of course more spending is the answer, not fiscal responsibility so you don’t need more money.

I’m anti-crime.

Emily- I couldn’t agree more. Why does the default argument always go Liberal vs. Conservative? Shouldn’t it be good vs. bad? Ineffective vs. Effective? There’s gotta be some solutions out there… that everyone can agree with.

Didn’t St. Paul have it’s funding reduced just as much as Minneapolis?

Yeah, boy, I do love hanging out just north of the capitol building at night! I certainly feel super safe up there! No crime ever takes place around there, nuh-uh!

Jderusha: I agree there must be solutions out there. Actually NYC and Rudy G’s cleanup of that place is a perfect example for Mpls. Since we will never elect a mayor of any substance in this city maybe we could hire Rudy or someone who worked with him for that cleanup to lead the same type of effort here. I’d be willing to spend money to do that, give more money to RT and our current city leaders is just throwing good money after bad.

Tmay was the article about crime in general or the ridiculous increase in Minneapolis? I’d rather hang out in the worst parts of Mpls than the worst parts of DC, but the article and discussion isn’t about crime in general, rather the massive increase Mpls has seen (while St. Paul has not seen a similar increase).

Tublecane, this article was about the rise in juvenile crime, in DC, Minneapolis, Boston, Milwaukee and elsewhere.

This jumps out:
Minneapolis police estimate that this year, juveniles will account for 63% of all suspects in violent and property offenses there, up from 45% in 2002.

Tmayhem, if there is a White Castle nearby, it’s not a good neighborhood. Whether it’s Rice and University or Lake and Blaisdell.

Bottom line — there aren’t any simple answer to what the problem is, let alone the solution. Everything from the police departments’ approach to community policing, to after school programs, to stability in neighborhoods and schools, and even prevailing attitudes toward crime within neighborhoods play a role. And it doesn’t stop there. Bottom line, you can throw money at this problem, but without a solid plan of attack, the money isn’t going to be particularly effective. $35 million in after school programs would be nice, but if it’s not coupled with investments in police, education, truancy enforcement, and a litany of other items, you’re barely scratching the surface.

So if anyone who wants to turn this into a liberal vs. conservative gang bang would kindly ride their bikes/SUVs/LRT/Lexus into oncoming traffic, we could get back to solving society’s problems.

I rarely, if ever, go to Minneapolis. There’s not enough going on there that St Paul doesn’t already have. Minneapolis just has MORE of everything. Crime included.

When moving out of the suburbs and looking at places, I chose St Paul over Minneapolis because St Paul is a much nicer city, hands-down. No question about it. I don’t need the crime, noise, etc. that Minneapolis has.

Minneapolis is Shelbyville.

Minneapolis police estimate that this year, juveniles will account for 63% of all suspects in violent and property offenses there, up from 45% in 2002.

I think we need to remember that this stat is saying that fewer adults are committing serious crimes and juveniles are committing more. This stat has less to do with overall crime rate and has nothing to say about the total rate of juvenile crime.

In rereading the article its a massive jumble of information with little focus, I guess it is the USA Today.

I do like the Suduko in their Sunday insert thou!

But if you watch the Simpsons, Shelbyville has fewer problems than Springfield.
Are you saying that St. Paul, in fact, has MORE problems (oil issues, nuclear waste, three-eyed-fish, roving gangs of junior campers) than Minneapolis?
HMMMMMM?
On another note, I’m not blaming the kids. I don’t see this as a political issue either. I merely found it interesting that the paper used Minneapolis as their base, but notice there are other cities with the same issue as well….

It’s not the kids. It’s the ugly kids.

Didn’t St. Paul have it’s funding reduced just as much as Minneapolis? If that is the case doesn’t that pretty much rule out the loss of funding excuse Ryback and the rest of the greenie libs in Mpls whine about? Of course more spending is the answer, not fiscal responsibility so you don’t need more money.

First, no it didn’t. Second, note the $15 million budget shortfall St. Paul is facing. That city simply hasn’t faced the problem yet. Not to mention it’s comparing apples and oranges.

It’s not saying fewer adults are suspects in violent and property offenses. It is saying a lower proportion of suspects are adults. The conclusion is: juvenile offenses are increasing at a higher rate than adult offenses. Total numbers are helpful, but it’s more helpful to analyze who is actually responsible for the increase in crime.

The article should have broken the stats into layman’s terms. USA Today is supposed to be better at dumbing these stats down and drawing conclusions.

Right, because it’s not possible to compare the two largest cities in the state to each other.

I’ll have a nother commetn in a Minute, I have to run.

Back.

As a bus rider, I don’t buy parking in the “secure” Capitol parking complexes, I have to park in a lot north of University avenue across from White Castle. I’ll never forget the first time I parked there. I’m leaving at about 10 p.m. and as my car is driving down the street – my car is moving at about 15mph – a woman knocks on my window asking for money or drugs or some such thing. I didn’t roll the window down so I couldn’t hear exactly what she said, but something about helping a sister out, etc. I thought, “Wow, that’s balls out.”

Anyway, I’ve left here very late a lot of times and I would rather walk anywhere around DTSTP or the Capitol area at any time of the day than some parts of Minneapolis. We get crime warnings maybe once or twice a year here. In Uptown, I don’t even feel safe walking 300 yards to the bank. Hell, I dont’ even walk three blocks to Rainbow anymore.

That’s just my opinion.

A New York type of thing would probably help. However, putting more cops on the street costs money. The state is unwilling to provide the needed money to put those cops on the streets…

The bottom line is that the youth (in both cities) need something to do. They need basketball hoops and baseball diamonds, etc. They need something to do besides get into trouble. They need a place to go and hang with their friends. It’s not a gang, it’s a club!

Crime is just a badly misconceived hobby!

Right, because it’s not possible to compare the two largest cities in the state to each other.

Comparing the effects of different sized state aid cuts on two cities with different governmental structures, different budgets, and different tax histories is possible, but it isn’t as simple as saying since city A did X, city B needs to do X as well.

Boredom does contribute to crime, Max. No joke.

Right. It’s all about the bureaucracy and how it’s structured. That’s it.

I don’t doubt it. When my girlfriend gets bored, she always wants to pull off a heist.

How much would it cost to put a computer, high speed internet and free porn passwords into every teen offenders house?

It’s why I never leave.

Didn’t Gov. Ventrua say Porn is the opiate of the masses?

It’s time we start spreading some opiates!

Well, St. Paul got state aid cuts, kept a lid on property taxes and hasn’t seen criminals besiege its residents. They had to have done something right and Minneapolis sure isn’t, so maybe it’s time they start looking around for ideas.

Speaking about funding and priorities, I laughed out loud when I read that Paul Ostrow wants to give city aid to displaced renters. The sad thing is, he was serious.

Porn? Why not just MNSpeak accounts, I’d like to hear their accounts!

I bet Katherine Kersten blames it on video games in a column.

Or gay marriage.

You can not like “bureaucracy” all you like, but if you want to deal with reality, then yes, of course those things matter. Mpls has independent Park and Library Boards, for example.

Also, cities have to pay for a great deal of things that are easy to take for granted but that you might miss if they were gone. If there are specific tradeoffs you want to make, that’s totally reasonable, but I’d like to know specifically what they are, how much they cost, and how you suggest those services be filled once they’re no longer paid for by the government.

St. Paul’s “management” of their cuts led to their current $15 million budget shortfall. This means $15 million in cuts or in revenue increases. I’d say Mpls maybe shouldn’t follow the lead of a city that is facing that kind of a deficit.

Of course this is a tough discussion to have in the comment section…:)

I always love it when single woman have children “they” say a child needs a father, but 2 fathers is not acceptable.

Can anyone find any demographic info on who is doing all the reproducing these days? It just seems that the educated, monetarily well to do faction of society has realized that the dream of getting married and having kids (let alone going through with the single-parent path) is an unnecessary fallacy or at least one that is delayed in time and limited to one child rather than the previous 2.3.

My guess is that you could find a strong correlation between the percentage rise in crime committed by youth and the shift within the past 15 years of percentage of children born into lower socioeconomic status.

Anyone ready for mandating Depo shots as an addition to the “Immunization” list required at the Junior High physical? I’m getting there.

Mpls has independent Park and Library Boards, for example.

Maybe that’s part of the problem for Minneapolis. Just too much government for one city to control. Even a person like me who’s pretty intune with things looks up at the government bureacracy in Minneapolis and goes, “Huh?”

how you suggest those services be filled once they’re no longer paid for by the government

That’s assuming everything they do is an essential service.

St. Paul’s “management” of their cuts led to their current $15 million budget shortfall. This means $15 million in cuts or in revenue increases. I’d say Mpls maybe shouldn’t follow the lead of a city that is facing that kind of a deficit.

Or it could just mean spending increases must be slowed by $15 million. I’ll admit I haven’t looked at the numbers. Considering that St. Paul kept it’s property taxes in check for several years, if I were a resident I’d at least look at a property tax increase as a legitimate option.

Tmayhem, if there is a White Castle nearby, it’s not a good neighborhood. Whether it’s Rice and University or Lake and Blaisdell.

Oh, really? Funny, there’s a White Castle on the corner of E Hennepin and Central Ave, and my neighbourhood doesn’t seem too bad.

mjfox, what you describing is the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Marching_Morons syndrome. A nightmare scenario, perhaps, but, then, since most new jobs are at places like MacDoald’s, how smart to you really want to be to work there.

This is the most current info I could find on reproduction and intelligence.

I know I’m jumping in late here, but Buckwheat’s comments are painfully illogical. If you can’t name a single “conservative” social policy that would reduce crime, yet you respond like Pavlov’s dogs and whine “liberal’s!”, you’re engaged in what the lawyers like to call a non sequitur.

Name one, just one conservative policy that would reduce crime. Just claiming big government is bad and a liberatarian free for all is good doesn’t make a lick of sense.

Two things that absolutely can’t be discounted and help contrast St. Paul and Mpls like black and white are schools and the police force — especially the stability of each institution. St. Paul’s schools and police department have done an excellent job managing the resources and leadership they have. That has translated to better performing schools and a police force that doesn’t act in opposition to the neighborhoods they serve. They know the neighborhoods, the schools know their kids and have been able to operate steadily with few interruptions or changes of direction. Minneapolis, quite obviously, hasn’t had that luxury with so many changes in leadership, scandals, and dissent.

kwatt: As a St. Paulite, I definitely have zero problem with a property tax increase. In fact, mine was 27% this year! One thing I like to keep in mind about “spending increases” is that simple inflation means the budget must increase by anywhere from 2-5% per year, and that benefits costs to employees keep increasing at ridiculous rates. In Mpls, City revenue has been declining when you account for inflation for the last 3-6 years. Property tax increases and personnel cuts have been a direct result of State and Federal aid cuts. There may be more “inefficiencies” to be squeezed out, but I’d like to see where exactly. One person’s inefficiency is another’s “essential service.”

I recommend both cities’ budget documents on their websites – surprisingly interesting and easy to read!

Excellent debate!

I wish I did but I just don’t have the time to go read the budget of the city of Minneapolis.

Since someone mentioned it, here’s some “conservative” social policies that might help reduce crime: if you’re a dad, marry the mom and help raise the kids; measure success by how many people get OFF welfare instead of how many people go on; stop enabling the unfulfilled potential of those who could do better but don’t because they have the government to do things for them; encourage ownership, of everything, because when you own things you want to take better care of them; promote earning things, because when you earn things you care about what happens to them; stop imposing failing schools on low-income parents. Etc.

You might notice that none of those actually involve anything changing hands between the government and people and none of them relate in anyway to crime.

I wish I did but I just don’t have the time to go read the budget of the city of Minneapolis.

Yes you do. Or is posting here your job?

The executive summaries are something like three pages and will give you a good starting point. It really is important for discussing raising or lowering taxes and paying for things like more police officers to know at least a little about how the money works.

Why is Uptown all that scary? Am I missing something?

One conservative idea that reduces crime. In fact, everywhere this has been introduced has had a resulting decrease in the crime rate. What is this thing that makes liberals quake? Concealed carry.

Well, perhaps it’s because there’s no proven link between concealed carry and lowered crime, for one.

If we really wanna talk about what causes juvenile crime and what can solve it, this conversation could go on forever.

This is my job, and the only answer I can give is that there’s no easy answer. These kids end up in my unit for a myriad of reasons – abusive homes, well-meaning but struggling parents, gang involvement, and just plain no sense of empathy or responsibility.

It’s not so much boredom that plays a part as it is giving kids a sense of purpose. Gangs always seem like the easy answer when looking for a culprit, but for good reason. Some of these kids have no choice – they either get in a gang or they get jumped every day just walking down their block. The glamorization of gangs as a profitable avenue out of the projects doesn’t help, either…which would you rather do…make 500 bucks a day selling drugs, or $6.25 an hour working at the McDonalds down the street?

To prevent crime we need to look at homes/communities first, create a social system that works, and start implementing swift and strict justice for juveniles. I’m a huge advocate of rehabilition, but when they keep messing up without a sign of remorse, it’s time to take them off the streets for the benefit of the community.

To say that this is an issue between liberal vs. conservative is asinine. This is everyone’s fault, therefore it’s everyone’s problem…why don’t we stop the finger-pointing bullshit and try working TOGETHER for once…you know, maybe put the kids and the community first?

The left hates guns. They hate those who own them. They hate those who defend themselves with guns. Why? Well guns allow individuals to defend themselves, property and rights. The left, again collectivists to the core, want the defense of rights to be handled by government. An individual who owns a gun steps outside the collectivist utopia the left desires so deeply. Gun owners who use their gun to defend themselves are even worse to the left. By their actions, they have illustrated that rights are individual, and can be protected by individuals. That is a direct threat to leftist collectivism.

So does a person own a gun to protect themselves or to Rage Against the Machine?

I don’t like guns and I don’t want them around me. But hate is a little strong.

The rampant stereotyping of people with political leaning I think is really what is tearing this country apart. It’s a worthless tool that lets morons try to appear like they actually have some sort of opinion.

The left hates guns.

WTF…you my friend have severe mental impairment.

It’s the Talk Radio mentality. Call it severe impairment if you think so, but that crap is insidious.

I’m with you, Mpls Simpleton.

But hate is a little strong.

I think you’re right. Fear is probably more accurate.

I still don’t get how people think more guns is the answer. More guns means more guns in the hands of the wrong people. And more kids accidently killing themselves when their parents aren’t responsible enough to lock up their guns.

I think were all guilty of over generalizing from time to time but if people were even aware that it not really acceptable it might help.

Altho I can see the reponse right now, “I’m not going to be all politically correct just to make you happy you lefty wingnut.”

I guess I’ll just have to take the high road and hope it rubs off on others.

“I think you’re right. Fear is probably more accurate.”

In my case it’s accurate. Guns make me nervous. I don’t want them around

Me too, Rat. You speak wisely. I’m a pretty lousy marksman, anyway. While in uniform, I found I had an unexpected skill with grenades, but I don’t have much use for this skill back home, thank God.

Still, cool skill.

blame the government all you want, right or left, but the problem is simple…stupid, lazy-arse parents who have no interest in raising their kids. start holding the parents accountable for their kid’s actions, and maybe they’ll start thinking “hmmm, it’s 1am, i wonder where my child is?”
one idea i have is that if your child is convicted of a crime, you don’t get your welfare check for as long as he’s on probation, in juvy, etc. essentially we the taxpayers are paying you to raise your children, and you’re not doing your job. so you don’t get your money. that might help.

i’m tired of hearing how gangs are the only way out for kids in MINNESOTA. christ, i grew up in chicago (in a suburb, i’m not tryin to be hard)…it’s not nearly as bad here. the schools are good, nobody gets jumped “every day” in any neighborhood here. i know, i spend A LOT of time in north, and it’s not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. yeah, people sell drugs and get shot, but the victims are rarely “innocent”. y’all should take a field trip to chicago, philly, or DC…see what a real ghetto looks like. these places make North look like Disneyland.

Well assuming that all of these kids parents are on welfare is a little presumptuous.

And I’m pretty sure people understand that parts of North Minneapolis (Jordon) are not as bad as many places but we would prefer them to be safe places for everyone to live. Minnesota should strive to be better than everywhere else.

Please. Uptown, scary? I live in Uptown. The scariest thing here is the number of the yahoos running redlights in their Jeeps. One of them almost hit my kid not long ago.

i didn’t say “all”…would you agree it’s over 50%? i think that’s a conservative number, yet still high enough to make a huge dent in crime.

i would prefer it too, but that’s not reality. i’m just tired of people giving these kids that excuse – that they have no other way out. keep hammering kids with that message, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. besides, what’s so bad about working for mcdonalds? people throw that around like it’s the worst job on earth, yet you get a work history, some job skills, and who knows, maybe it leads to a job that earns $10/hour…then $15/hr…etc

I agree Joann, Uptown is far from scary. Uptown has changed a bit and become quite trendy, and anytime the herd starts crashing the scene you will have a lot more yahoos who are much more concerned about being cool and so pumped that they finally live somewhere cool (and are possibly stoned out of their head) that they might forget that many people are raising families there.

But like I stated earlier, with places like Stella or whatever the hell it’s called, a 3 story multi-faceted hangout for the trendy, you will get a little wilder crowd than maybe the Smiling Moose was bringing in 6 years ago. You get enough frat squads and athletes and cocky white college grads bragging about their new jobs in a concentrated party field, and you might get a drive-by or two or a stabbing when the riff raff comes mingling.

Not to mention, if I stood on Hennepin and Lake and hit a 2 iron east down Lake, it would wind up in a shadier part Uptown, just that quick.

I lived in Uptown from 2000-2002 and it was a great experience, and it would be the first place I would live if I move back from where I am now, a sometimes truly scary place, L.A. I guess what the two places have in common, is that if you know where to shy away from, you could live to be 80 without ever running into anything scary.

Compubox, whether or not Minneapolis is as bad as Chicago or Philly is not the point. I live in Minneapolis, therefore when I see juvenile crime rising in this city, I don’t say “Well, at least it’s not as bad as in Chicago!” I don’t effin’ care about Chicago.

And yes, it is a little presumptuous to assume that all parents of JD’s are on welfare, as well as your presumption that the problem is “simple”, i.e., always the fault of the parents. In fact, your presumption kind of refutes many of your arguments…you presume to know all of these things about these kids, yet you don’t. I practically live my life with these kids, and I would say that I know everything there is to know about juvenile crime…I don’t just drive by them on a street corner in north and think I know what their lives are like because I spent “a lot” of time up there.

I am not making excuses for anyone – nothing disgusts me more than people who commit crimes with no regard to others – but in order to solve the problem, it might help to look at the cause. Gangs are not the way out, but you have to understand that it sure as hell looks desirable to a population of youth who don’t have a lot of distinctive role models who work at McDonalds or any other 9 to 5. Parents are not always wholly to blame…some try to be great parents, but because they are tired of assholes like you blaming everything on welfare, they work their asses off to stay off of welfare, therefore they’re not able to be around for their kids. You want parents to not take advantage of welfare, yet you would also probably blame parents who worked too much and who were never around…which one do you want more? Because you’re not gonna get both.

I practically live my life with these kids, and I would say that I know everything there is to know about juvenile crime…

Correction: I would *never* say that I know everything there is to know about juvenile crime…

What we have here is the type of misunderstanding about how societies work that can only come when you have a community that’s comprised of home-grown innocents, farm kids with no history of this place and who never saw a blood til he/she went to Carlton, and refugees from Chicago and points East who have no history of this place and who view this burg as relatively trouble-free, and foreign immigrants who just feel thankful to have a clean place to go to the bathroom.

As someone who grew up in St. Paul’s ghetto, which is probably equivalent to Chicago’s nicest suburb as far as crime is concerned, I’m just chuckling observing the debate about the cause and cure of crime between such divergent groups, neither of whom have any clue.

Nice debate though.

you.will.get.robbed.in.uptown.

So then perhaps you can enlighten us, buckwheat?

Too busy chuckling.

Buckwheat rules!! Liberals. All 4 cities are LIBERAL run cities. I have a big idea. Put the criminals in jail and keep them there.

amber, what the hell with the name calling? let’s see, i mentor a child who lives in north for the last 7 years, i coach a basketball team in the heart of north, and my g-friend teaches at a charter school in north. so yeah, i’m qualified to state an EDUCATED opinion on what i see. BELIEVE me, there’s not too many parents so exhausted from working at mcdonalds that they’re too tired to parent. PLEASE! we had a “parents day at the school last semester….approx 150 kids in school, you know how many parents showed up. 14!!! but yeah, the other 136 were all working the fry machine, right?

come see what i see….dad’s absent, mom’s doing a whole lot of nothing. or just stay in your little “oh, it’s so hard to be product of the ghetto” mentality, and just keep making excuses for people. THAT will initiate change, right?

BTW, i have no problems with welfare. it is a good system that truly helps many deserving people in times of need. it is the abuse of welfare that is at the root of many problems, i believe.

I have a big idea. Put the criminals in jail and keep them there.

That must make you the most liberal of all, Bartbrett — since you’re obviously supporting the enormous tax increase it would take to keep our criminal population incarcerated for the full length of their sentences.

Just sayin’…

Kids are getting worse and worse. They think that they are all so great and wonderful. I know this isn’t all kids, because I know a lot of kids in my neighborhood who are fine kids, and aren’t yound criminals, but on the news they arrested a gang of kids ranging from NINE to 17. That’s pretty bad.

But we are MUDERAPOLIS once again. : [