Secrets of the City

Now that’s what I call the spirit of service in action….

Yet more reason to abandon the Bells. As much as I despise Qwest’s approach to customer service (sans lube pretty much sums it up), I’ve got to give them mad props for not letting the NSA crap all over the privacy rights of their customers.

Does this include VOIP calls as well?

Paul, it doesn’t — yet. NSA and the administration are agitating for legislation that will require VOIP services to provide backdoors for call monitoring and records.

And offering up your backdoor rarely ends well.

I believe I remember that issue Rich. Looks like I’ll be getting me one of these.

Good. Now I know what phone service to use when I conduct illegal and threatening business over the phone. Thanks for the tip.

I guess privacy matters when we’re talking about who we call, but when we’re out in public privacy is of little concern and we’ll freely yak away on our cell phones without regard to what we are saying or who may be hearing it.

But apparently, contrary to the wishes of some I am sure, we aren’t that upset.

And of course, this has nothing, nothing to do with the nominated head of the CIA having led the NSA. No, the timing here is totally, totally random.

And USA Today of all places? When was the last time they scooped anyone? Someone spoon fed this to them.

And I think I’m much more worried about corporations having access to my personal information than I am the government.

Don’t drug dealers, and terrorists already use prepaid phones? and just toss them out evey month?

Just what we need, to catch the moron terrorist!

Just another example of the mainstream press trying to create an issue to bring controversy onto Bush. No surprises here. In this day and age there is no reason anyone should believe that any form of electronic communication they make isn’t tracked in one way or another by a public or private entity.

Nevermind the fact that everyone’s already forgotten that the NSA is supposed to operate on stuff outside the US rather than in it. We went through this back in January when international tapping was discussed.

Not defending one side of the issue or the other here but…

…when any group or administration makes a habit of secrecy, it (and its faithfuls) should not be surprised when people are jumping at the chance to uncover just about anything. Kind of a “goes around, comes around” thing.

Bush. Cargill. The Knights Templar.

Kind of comes with the territory, right?

But apparently, contrary to the wishes of some I am sure, we aren’t that upset.

I think if 35% of the people feel like they are getting thier privacy violated by our government it is a pretty big deal. That is a lot of Americans who are not comfortable with the actions of the government. Too many to dismiss by implying that it is a nonissue.

Thirty-five percent of Americans oppose a lot of things, few of which cause a medai frenzy the likes of the one we have seen created infront of us here. Are we going to look in to who leaked this at all? What is their agenda? What were their motives? Were they trying to smear someone? Nah, trivial issues all when it comes to the latest mediagasm.

Yes that group does have a lot of secrecy. Clearly the NSA should just open its files for everyone, CIA and FBI as well. They should disclose everything they are doing.

I see what you are saying indie about the impression the Bush administration has, but the reality is these organizations should have their dealings kept secret.

Kwatt you hit the nail right on the head. 35% of American’s have huge problems with major govt intrusions, and anything the media made this big a frenzy over 3 out of 10 American’s would be dumb enough to not feel comfortable with it.

I don’t mean by the above statement that those agencies should keep things secret and have not oversight, but the oversight should come from government bodies (congressional panels etc) NOT the media and the general public.

65% of americans must be really stupid.

so they really believe that the administration will only use these programs to keep tabs on ‘the known badguys?’ well, I certainly can’t wait until ‘badguys’ is redefined to mean anyone who has a problem with the official government line and dissenters are ‘disappeared’ to gitmo/poland/etc.

Yay for the coming police state! People who disagree with the president must be ter’rists!

tmayhem – forget to put on your tin foil hat today? Seems like you are a little paranoid.

Are you implying that this program could be used more than anything else in law enforcement to create the fictitious, over dramatic ‘Bush Police State’ you are refering to? Clearly there needs to be some oversight, in which case your scenario is ridiculous. You could say that same scenario about everything the CIA, FBI and NSA does if it was turned to use against the administrations enemies.

I wish your paranoia did have some basis in reality…if it did 80% of the mainstream press would be ‘disappeared to gitmo’, WMD would have been planted in Iraq, and with those 2 simple things the Presidents approval rating would be around 80% because all anyone would care about are the incredibly strong economic numbers right now.

…but the oversight should come from government bodies (congressional panels etc) NOT the media and the general public. NOT the media and the general public.

Oh, totally my bad, you know, thinking any one citizen should be able to make a difference.

Ok, that was a little childish. But, yeah…

Anyway – I agree with Matt. It’s who could end up with the information (the highest bidder?) that is a little disconcerting…

To address some of these points:

Tublecane, I’ll buy that the NSA/CIA/etc. all have programs that should be kept secret, without a doubt. However, according the all the reports I’ve seen, congress didn’t know a damn thing about this one. The administration says they’ve briefed appropriate legislators, but they haven’t named them, and those legislators certainly haven’t come forward to say this program is A-OK.

Second, that 35 percent number is based on an overnight poll. Give the issue a little time and I think that number will rise as more people are made aware of it. Not to mention, I can fashion a poll that’ll produce virtually any number I want it to, so I don’t buy the lack of public outcry for a minute.

And lastly, I’d sooner trust Apesgrapes with national security and my privacy than this administration.

Oh, totally my bad, you know, thinking any one citizen should be able to make a difference.

Oh, totally my bad, you know, thinking that invistigations into terrorism and other crimes that the NSA, CIA, and FBI invistigate should have some privacy, but your right, any individual should be able to see exactly what these bodies are doing at any time. Forget about national security.

It’s who could end up with the information (the highest bidder?) that is a little disconcerting…

Again, if intelligence agencies were going to sell information to the highest bidder then my phone call logs would be the last of what i’d be worried about. I’d be more worried about all the other capabilities that these agencies could do if they decided to go that route. This is why they have oversight.

richg — good comments. I totally don’t trust polls either so don’t give the 35% much wieght. However I do think regardless of the poll if the media harped as much on any particular pet issue it wanted at least 35% of people would be worried about it. In this case I believe the media is harping on a non-issue.

From all I have read and heard (admittedly a lot of talk radio) the gathering of numbers dialed/recieved falls under current pen register acts and is not illegal. I have heard no one give any evidence that the Constitution or any law was violated.

I believe all the hype is just that, and people are taking something and adding 10 levels of what if’s to it (what if it was sold to the highest bidder, used against enemies, etc) all of which could be said about any government agency information. As far as trusting this administration from what the mainstream press rights I agree, from a historical standpoint I don’t see that they are any less trustworthy than past administrations.

…um clearly I meant ‘writes’, not rights in that last sentence…it’s friday…

Sorry Tuble, I don’t buy it. I’ve looked at the telecommunications act Qwest cites in its refusal to hand over the records and, to me (admittedly, I’m not a lawyer), it looks like their interpretation is correct. Handing over phone records without a written warrant for prosecution of a specific criminal act is expressly verboten. So the NSA’s fishing expedition, no matter how noble the cause, would thus be illegal. This certainly doesn’t absolve the other phone companies, who would, by extension, have broken the law in handing the records over…

Plus, just because this administration may or may not be as trustworthy as prior administrations means absolutely nothing. We can’t justify illegal actions by explaning them away as nothing that hasn’t happened before. To take that to its logical (and ridiculous) conclusion, I could take slaves and push Native Americans off their land because of the justifiable precendent set by our forefathers.

In other words, I’m calling bullshit. Apesgrapes in ‘08!

fyi from all that I have read this is all completely legal. Check Smith v. Maryland. The bottom line is this is basically just data-mining and is not considered a search. It needs no warrants. It is legal. Futhermore by agreeing to the phone company’s billing rules it is done so with the understanding that the numbers you dial may be turned over to the authorities.

tublecane, perhaps you’re unfamiliar with some other spy programs or maybe history, but I’ll explain more clearly why this bothers me so much.

1) ECHELON
2) The progression of pre WWII Germany into fascism
3) The fact that the administration has been steadily chipping away at personal freedom and privacy since 9/11, and using 9/11 as an excuse for it.

And let’s not forget things like ‘free speech zones’ at presidential speeches. Round up the protestors into one neat pen. That way in the future they’ll be easier to round up and cart off when some ‘agitators’ make their way into the midst. There’s so much precedent for the kind of thing we’re seeing in history, only because the technology and circumstances are new “it’s all ok folks!”

Sure, sure. And those service jobs are really bringing back the economy! I bet all those former professionals now hawking fast food and hardware are really pleased with things too!

ps, think of echelon (and what they’re doing) as basically google for all your private phonecalls/emails/every form of nonencrypted electronic communication. I wouldn’t really trust anyone with that kind of power, and especially not a government. *Any* government, not just one run by Bush.

We’ve gotten to the point that anything Bush says is legal becomes legal because he’s the Commander-in-Chief during wartime!
Nevermind that there’s plenty of precedent that says “no way” and the “war” is nubulously-defined at best (and unlikely to ever really *end.*) Plus you don’t have to justify anything if no one knows about it, so they’ve taken to ultra-secrecy (including keeping things from appropriate oversight, as these recent ‘leaks’ have proven) so they can do whatever they please and call it ‘legal.’

So no, I don’t buy that this is legal anymore than I believe that it ends at simply searching phone logs.

Rich I disagree about the legality, but neither of us are lawyers. I think it is safe to say that lawyers will get to the bottom of the legality, and when they do I have no doubt it will show the press will have blown this out of proportion, but of course then they are only worried about swaying public opinion, not actual legality.

tmayhem I’m aware of echelon and also history. As I said before no one should assume any form of electronic communication they use in today’s world is private. Unfortunately I don’t have your paranoid view of what this administration has done to personal freedom. Anyone who likens what is going on today to Germany’s progression to fascism has a severe disconnect from reality.

oops, nebulously even.

Tuble, you’re operating from a fairly specious assumption — that the mainstream press’ agenda includes swaying public opinion. The press wants to sell papers, sure, so they’re happy to sensationalize. But on the whole, there is balance in the media. Like it or not, this is a story people should know about.

Also, tmay is possibly blowing this a bit out of proportion, but there are parallels to what happened in Germany. There is a struggle going on between the three branches of government right now. The executive branch is attempting to exercise more power than it has in the past, and the legislative and judicial branches are attempting to curb it, to an extent. And again, like it or not, this is one of the most important battles in the history of our country. What happens here could result in constitutional amendments, abridged personal freedoms, and a substantive change in the governance of our country. If you’re not concerned about how this fight is conducted, and its results, you really should be.

I should also say that I stand by earlier comments that poll numbers are essentially useless and annoying. I just find it interesting to see such a disconnect between when the media frenzy is so far removed from actual public opinion.

Many things. First, this business of a police state, where does that come from? Such a thing is impossible in our system of representative democracy. It also ignores a basic understanding of American history. The privacy vs national security pendelum always swings towards national security in times of war. When it ends, and it will, the pendelum swings back the other way.

Second, congress. What a bunch of damn idiots these clowns are. Select members of I would assume leadership or intelligence committees get briefed on all of these things and then when they are illegally leaked and published they either run and hide or act all flabergasted about the revelation and go on television with all their other hysterical, gutless colleagues demanding an investigation. HELLO! That’s your job in the first place and if you’d done it…well, then you wouldn’t have any reason to get your mug on television. Ahhh, now I understand.

Third, I haven’t lost a personal freedom in the last five years. Wherever this crackdown on personal freedom is taking place it’s not anywhere near any person of rational thought and mind.

Fourth, presidential free speech zones or whatever. Three words: Time, manner, place.

Five, let’s look at this for what it is. It’s no secret that certain factions of the intelligence community have a problem with General Hayden and the Bush Administration in general. Repeated leaks intended to damage the president are just that – illegal attempts to inflict political damage on the president in the hopes that they can swing things back into a direction they find acceptable. These are unelected, unaccountable, unnamed people and they’re trying to control the direction of foreigh policy and national security. If anyone wants to get their panties in a wad over a conspiracy theory – there it is. Here we have the exact illegal, political smear that was falsely alleged in the Valerie Plame “case” and it is completely ignored.

What a farce.

I officially deem richg my personal representative for things I wanted to say but didn’t have time to/couldn’t eloquently put into words.

My responses were pithy, jokey at best. I think it should be an Apesgrapes/Richg ticket in ‘08.

Just a quick question…

So when will this war be over?
Didn’t we go to war with Saddam and his regime?
Isn’t that war over?

I’m just sort of wondering if this War thing has mutated into a war on Terror that will never have an end. Just sort of has a 1984 ring to it. Who determines when this war is going to be over?

Does the role of personal representative involve hitting on Latinas for you?

Because I’m totally ok with that, as long as there’s one for me too.

Naturally.

Technically, war is declared and ended by an act of Congress. But given that what we’re currently calling a war is more of a police action (and should be a combination of aid, public relations, and diplomacy, rather than an entertaining exercise in blowing shit up and legal grey areas), it technically has niether beginning nor end.

Kevin, saying something is “impossible in our system” is just inviting those kind of abuses. A system can be bent and even broken without appropriate oversight and people fighting to keep things working. And there is nothing “just a goddamn piece of paper” can do to stop a man unless there is enforcement of that piece of paper (the constitution, btw) via other people’s oversight.

And it’s easy to say “hey things aren’t any different for me!” That’s all fine and good. First they took the gypsies, then they took the jews, etc. etc. If you don’t fight for a principle you’ll eventually fall prey to the same erosion of freedoms.

I can’t believe people are saying that whistleblowing on the blatantly illegal programs of an out-of-control executive branch is a criminal activity designed to politically damage a lame-duck president. This is like saying a rape victim is guilty of character assasination for telling the police.

The war on nouns! Terror! Drugs! Poverty!
Obviously the other noun-wars worked out really well and ended gracefully in victory, right?

That a happy thought to go into a rainy cold weekend with

I meant, naturally, richg, there will be two.

PS. Qwest can still go to hell. They’re still jerks for all the crappy stuff they do minus this.

Excellent. Watch out salsa night at Babalu, here come the white folks.

Don’t worry, this leak is sure to be investigated!

Aren’t Qwest inviting all the terrorists to relocate to their service area?

For what it’s worth kwatt, I’m with you on 5 out of 5 up there.

Oh, and Kevin you’d probably be the last to notice anyway because you’re apparantly in the good old boy’s camp. First it’s terrorists, then it’s ‘criminal leakers!’ Eventually it’s dissenters and anyone who doesn’t attend their weekly patriotic rallies and terrorist-in-effigy burnings.

These things are not ok to allow at any level because the line is very easily edged forward without anyone noticing. History! History! History!

Tmayhem – seriously..”blatently illegal programs”? If they are so blatent surely you can point out to me where on that piece of paper these programs are illegal? As for the rest of your post…wow. Your about a paragraph away from saying Bush orchestrated 9/11 for his power grab. I’m thinking too much about happy hour to respond to it.

kwat – thank you for a voice of reason.

I’m not going to get into point by point refutation here, because we could go back and forth for days. But I’ll give one more point as food for thought…

Our justice system is based on the supposition the everyone is innocent until proven guilty. By rounding up phone records, the privacy of which is guaranteed by the telecommunications act (which I have all sorts of problems with in general, but in this case, it’s peachy keen), and trolling through them searching for “patterns,” you abandon that supposition. Because what happens next? Based on a call or two to Saudi Arabia you’re put on a watch list?

What we have to remember, and seem to lose sight of quite often, is that legality is often questionable, but what is legal is not always what is right. I’m not too sure the administration understands this.

Oh, and Kevin you’d probably be the last to notice anyway because you’re apparantly in the good old boy’s camp. First it’s terrorists, then it’s ‘criminal leakers!’ Eventually it’s dissenters and anyone who doesn’t attend their weekly patriotic rallies and terrorist-in-effigy burnings.

Wow you did forget your tin foil hat today. Kevin can I get in with your Good Ol’ Boy connection? I don’t want to get rounded up when Bush starts setting up concentration camps….

Kevin can I get in with your Good Ol’ Boy connection? I don’t want to get rounded up when Bush starts setting up concentration camps….

tublecane…Just affix a small spurting oil well patch to your lapel so they can easily identify you as a supporter!

Well, this administration seems to be working underthe assumption that anythign they do, if they say it is in the name of national security, is inherently legal, so I would say your presumption is correct, Rich.

I mean, itmay not violate the letter of the interpretation of the law as it applies to the Fourth Amenment, but simply searching through people’s records in themost generalized, open eneded way possible in the hopes of uncovering something seems very much like the Writs of Assistance that the amendment was written in response to.

tublecane…Just affix a small spurting oil well patch to your lapel so they can easily identify you as a supporter!

Sweet! I’ll be sure to do that. I just wish that since our only goal these days is to get oil we would have spent the money here. Then we could have actually rid ourselves of any need for alternative fuels for many years to come!

I have a question for you, did we go into Iraq for their oil as was claimed by the protesters when we went (in which case we’d be securing and commandeering that oil and have cheaper oil), or did we go so prices would go up so the oil companies can make money (as is claimed now)?…seems tunes have changed on that I just never know when people spout ‘oil for blood’ if they mean cheap oil for us or expensive oil so the oil companies can profit….

msparber your correct, it does not violate the letter or interpretation of the law. I have to disagree though that it is ‘generalized, open eneded’. As I understand it it is filtering through all calls to look for patterns that may be suspicious. Presumably if there is a known terrorist number and it shows up as dialed and recieved a number of times on a previously unknown number, then that gets investigated. Seems like a perfectly logical use of technology to me, not generalized or open ended. Also since it is not a violation of the law and could stop terrorism sounds great to me. If it was against the law I would want them to change the law and do it, but thankfully it is not.

Plus this way we can get a list of people who need to be round up and sent to the camps….watch out tmay…

If you look hard enough for suspicious activity, no matter where you look you’ll eventually find some. I just hope you PATRIOTS never do anything that might be construed as ’suspicious’ by someone else.

Oh, and tublecane, you are vastly simplifying the oil issue. Oil shale is still too expensive to extract in reasonable amounts to satisfy any significant portion of our demand. And in case you hadn’t noticed, the social instability in Iraq (they’ll welcome us as liberators!) has put a huge wrench into their oil production (which I believe was at some point recently, if not still, below prewar levels). Even with more supply, our demand has hit the point (along with international demand from developing economics (china, india)) that the supply is no longer adequate and even the marginal producers are being overwhelmed. All it takes is a little instability in one of these producers and the price can jump dramatically because there’s so little slack in the market.

Basically it was for oil, but the bungled it badly enough that we couldn’t even get the cheap oil out of the deal. Bravo for great execution of a completely elective war against a country that posed no imminent threat (except that we couldn’t buy their oil because of sanctions on an unfriendly government that THE US ENABLED IN THE FIRST PLACE).

And because arguing with modern conservatives is like banging your head on a wall inscribed with the latest fox news talking points, I’m going home.

tublecane: Rich I disagree about the legality, but neither of us are lawyers. I think it is safe to say that lawyers will get to the bottom of the legality, and when they do I have no doubt it will show the press will have blown this out of proportion, but of course then they are only worried about swaying public opinion, not actual legality.

I don’t think the lawyers will get to the bottom of this. The Bush Administration doesn’t want to litigate these issues (e.g., pen registers, wiretapping, detention, rendition) — they want to keep them hidden from the public and, in the alternative, beyond the jurisdiction of the Article III Courts. These issues will never be meaningfully addressed, except possibly by historians.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Maybe I need to go to a camp as well. Some nice, rustic retreat, where they help me with my concentration …

ha – thanks msparber! I actually got a laugh out of that one.

Not generalized or open ended? How can the examination of the phone records of nearly every citizen in the U.S. not be construed as generalized or open ended? Just like the records maintained by ISPs across the U.S., those records are supposed to be private. The only time the release of records is permissable is (and this is the exact wording within the act) “if the provider, in good faith, believes that an emergency involving danger of death or serious physical injury to any person requires disclosure without delay of information relating to the emergency.” Can anyone tell me what the immediate danger or emergency was?

Max, I get the top bunk.

Rich, obviously everyone is a potential terrorist! After all, only half of voters voted republican!

Ok, going home for real now.

Tmay – I thought Bush wanted higher priced oil so his oil buddies could make more money? I just get confused with the liberal talking points…they contradict themselves so often.

As far as oil shale yes it is WAS too expensive, but if oil prices stay where they are it will not be, and there are reserves there that are plenty to meet the growing demand from China and India. Once it becomes profitable to extract it at current prices we will do so, there will be no running out of oil. If all we wanted was oil if we had spent the amount of money on the war on developing the oil shale we would have it. If all we wanted was their oil why do we not just center our entire military presensce around the oil fields and extract it, we could but instead we are trying to secure the country so they can sustain themselves. Of course we also could have gotten cheap oil from them if we had just worked against the sanctions like France and Russia.

It is not generalized and open ended in that it isn’t really an examination of the phone records of every citizen in depth. It is simply scanning and only really examining if a pattern is found. To me that is a focused search.

If you can’t solicit the phone records of a single person without getting a warrant, explain to me why it’s perfectly fine to solicit those of the entire U.S. population?

Front page of the NY Times right now on Qwest’s legal justification for not giving away the records.

T-Mobile & Verizon Wireless also declined

If you can’t solicit the phone records of a single person without getting a warrant, explain to me why it’s perfectly fine to solicit those of the entire U.S. population?
»» Submitted by »»» richg at 4:48 PM on May 12

A+
couldn’t have said it better.