Secrets of the City

Ethanol is a NWO CORN-spiracy. C’mon. Alien seed, brings the water table down, and now it’s being used for a gasoline subsitute?

Corn is bad news man.

There’s a really great article over at slate right now about how high gas prices are a good thing. As long as the prices stay high, ethanol and other alternatives will get some attention.

Plus for all his oil ties, Bush can’t really do shit about oil prices.

Corn’s not even the best way to go.
There was an article in the NYT a little while ago, about sugar-cane based ethanol that’s used widely in Brazil. It’s easier to make ethanol from cane sugar, and the technology they’re using in Brazil already is pretty impressive- high ethanol content, and car engines that can take both ethanol and regular gasoline, so consumers can price discriminate.

Not that we’ll be able to access that any time soon.
I’m all for alternative fuels, but not for getting in to ones that only perpetuate unfair supports for u.s. agriculture…

Actually electric trains are the best way to go, because you can switch your entire backend electricity-generating system and they continue to function as before. hydrogen requires a whole new distribution infrastructure, our current single-occupant auto system is unsustainable, no matter how you power it (and gas is the cheapest way to do so, so it can only get more expensive), and pretty soon the farmland that would have produced ethanol will be suburbs.

I am a big fan of electric trains in case no one has caught on yet.

Don’t go to a knucklehead (yes, I mean you, Marsh) for your information about the envirionmental pros and cons of biofuels like E85 and biodiesel. Go to the American Lung Association of Minnesota’s Clean Air Choice website.

Bob Moffitt

I find it funny that Brazil, a country with a president that holds no more than a 4th grade education, has made more inroads into automotive alternative energy than the US, which is run by a Harvard MBA graduate.

I didn’t know Cheney went to Harvard.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: there is more to the envirnoment than the air, and corn production is very toxic to our Minnesota environment. Ethanol may be part of the answer, but I’m extremely wary of the push for increased corn production to create it.

I’ve heard that switchgrass has less inpact because it doesn’t require as much chemical input — anyone know anything about that?

And Bob, I’m really curious: is the air the only thing you consider when you advocate for this?

spaceman: never let it be said that he’s off-message.

There’s a really great article over at slate right now about how high gas prices are a good thing.

Nonsense. High gas prices are only good if you’re a free-lance writer who rolls out of bed every morning and stumbles to his computer to make his living, never having to drive more than a few miles a week … probably to the liquor store. If you’re a working stiff in this country who has to drive to a shitty job every day, you know, the type of person the lefty press is allegedly looking out for? (heh) high gas prices are not a good thing.

And Bush can do something to lower gasoline prices … in fact he’s already done it. Temporarily lifting the environmental standards that require two dozen blends of gasoline to be refined which will increase the supply by producing fewer boutique blends, lowering the cost of the three blends that are produced. The price of a barrel of oil dropped two bucks as soon as he made the announcement.

Judging by the logic of the next thread, spaceman is saying Minnesotans should stop growing corn.

There was an article in the NYT a little while ago, about sugar-cane based ethanol that’s used widely in Brazil.

And guess who makes those cars that run on that “flex fuel?”

Yup. General Motors.

You’re right, dtester! And guess what…Ford makes a nice little “flex fuel” Focus — but only for the British market. VW makes flex fuel Golfs (my ride) — but only for Brazil. Saab makes a car (they say) gets better millage on E85 than regular unleaded — sold only in Europe.

The day a fuel efficient FFV is available in Minnesota — better yet, a plug-in FFV hybrid — is the day we REALLY begin to move away from oil and toward cleaner air.

Even President Bush has heard of making ethanol from switchgrass, spaceman. What most people have not heard is it is (currently) way too expensive, even with subsidies. It’s called cellulose ethanol –great idea, just extremely expensive. Switchgrass is cheap and grows easily — getting ethanol out of switchgrass is another matter.

On more thing, spaceman–what part of American LUNG Association don’t you understand?

You’re right, dtester! And guess what…Ford makes a nice little “flex fuel” Focus — but only for the British market. VW makes flex fuel Golfs (my ride) — but only for Brazil. Saab makes a car (they say) gets better millage on E85 than regular unleaded — sold only in Europe.

The day a fuel efficient FFV is available in Minnesota — better yet, a plug-in FFV hybrid — is the day we REALLY begin to move away from oil and toward cleaner air.

Even President Bush has heard of making ethanol from switchgrass, spaceman. What most people have not heard is it is (currently) way too expensive, even with subsidies. It’s called cellulose ethanol –great idea, just extremely expensive. Switchgrass is cheap and grows easily — getting ethanol out of switchgrass is another matter.

On more thing, spaceman–what part of American LUNG Association don’t you understand?

You’re right, dtester! And guess what…Ford makes a nice little “flex fuel” Focus — but only for the British market. VW makes flex fuel Golfs (my ride) — but only for Brazil. Saab makes a car (they say) gets better millage on E85 than regular unleaded — sold only in Europe.

The day a fuel efficient FFV is available in Minnesota — better yet, a plug-in FFV hybrid — is the day we REALLY begin to move away from oil and toward cleaner air.

Even President Bush has heard of making ethanol from switchgrass, spaceman. What most people have not heard is it is (currently) way too expensive, even with subsidies. It’s called cellulose ethanol –great idea, just extremely expensive. Switchgrass is cheap and grows easily — getting ethanol out of switchgrass is another matter.

On more thing, spaceman–what part of American LUNG Association don’t you understand?

You’re right, dtester! And guess what…

I don’t necessarily think we need to increase the production of corn in this country. Wasn’t the government subsidizing corn not so long ago because there was so damn much of it the price per bushel didn’t amount to any sort of decent living for a farmer? It seems to me we’re probably cranking out plenty o’ corn for the job…

dtester, did you even read the slate article I linked? it’s about how high prices are the only way that 1) americans will change consumption habits and 2) any sort of serious research/backing will go on for alternative fuels
and those two things together will eventually make the issue of petrol price unimportant

but sometimes it has to hurt a little before it gets better

ah, Kevin, I’m not sure what you mean by Judging by the logic of the next thread, but no that’s not what I’m saying, and I’m pretty sure you know that. Or at least you should.

But I might say that it would be good if Minnesotans grew corn differently than most do now. That’s a different topic though. I’m talking substantially increasing corn production using current petro-intensive methods without taking into consideration the heavy environmental impact.

and triple-post Bob, feeling a little snotty or what? Yes, I’m well-aware of your organization. However, for “information about the envirionmental pros and cons of biofuels like E85 and biodiesel” you sent us to the Clean Air website — I don’t see anything about groundwater contamination on there, so how is this a good source for the “environmental pros and cons”? Don’t you mean air-pollution pros and cons?

Spaceman: yes, I did mean air-pollution pros and cons. And I was more than a little cranky yesterday — as was my old Mac at home.

Why would gasoline be the one thing that doesn’t ever increase in price?

dtester, did you even read the slate article I linked?

Of course I read the article. And the premise was true two years ago but not now. The need for alternative fuel investment has made its way into the last two state of the union addresses, so it’s not as if no one knows about it.

My son’s girlfriend is starting her own biodiesel company after helping Willie Nelson start his. If she’s investing in it, everybody knows about it, believe me. (No offense Lexie) and there’s no need now to artificially raise the price of the commodity to make the point when the working class is well aware that there’s a need for an alternative fuel.

The writer is about two years too late with his “great idea.”

Get into iShares Brazil now baby before the stock goes through the roof!
Invests 45% Brazillan Resources (Read energy)!

ETF’s are the funds for cool smart people!

If you’re a working stiff in this country who has to drive to a shitty job every day…

Emphasis mine. Nobody… Nobody should have to drive to work everyday. That is the point! There should be alternatives to driving to work. Such as the much detested light rail. There are busses and there are bike paths. Blah blah blah public transporation. Blah blah blah high gas prices. With high prices for gas, people will find alternatives to their daily commute. It is not just about ethanol or other biofuels. They are just stop-gap solutions. They don’t get to the heart of the problem. That is, that everyone thinks that the only way to get somewhere in a city is to drive. There are alternatives, and we all have to get used to the fact that it is going to happen sooner or later…

Popular Mechanics has an article I stumbled upon yesterday about alternative fuels.

Of course, last year’s energy bill has already mandated that MTBE can no longer be used as an oxygenator, which basically means that all fuel in the US must contain ethanol anyways. This is, of course, part of why gas costs are so high right now.

because americans would rather give their babies cancer than pay more for gas …?

Babies are a renewable resource.

What does a gallon of MTBE cost versus a gallon of ethanol?
And can I make a nice Vodka out of it?

According to this organization, the real cost of MTBE is stiffer than a shot of Shakers vodka.

“Using publicly available data for the 36 states that reported MTBE contamination in drinking water, the mean cumulative cost for the treatment of large, medium, and small sized public water systems in these
states contaminated with MTBE is approximately $33.2 billion.”

crying about high gas prices because ‘those durn commie environmentalists hate our MTBE/freedom’ is like saying we should go back to huge coal-burning power plants in the middle of our cities because coal is so durn cheap!

Sadly, that’s what many are saying, tmayhem. Like these clowns.

I think the preferred nomenclature is “ass-clowns.”

I hate me some assclowns. They can go suck on their tailpipe and drink some runoff from a gas station sometime.

Seems like a shame to burn all that good corn likker…

I’m doing a report on what people think about rising gas prices tell me what you think.