Secrets of the City

However distasteful, I’m glad Phelps’ inbred minions have evolved beyond protesting gay funerals (their m.o. for years) because at least now the masses are informed. Not sure which group did it, but in the past, donations were collected for every minute Phelps protests. Build on the media/visibility and use it as an opportunity to raise funds for education or glbt organizations. Anybody know which group was organising this in the past? It’s an effective way to shut these buffoons down. Either they’re inadvertently raising money for “the cause” or they realize they’ve been outwitted and quit.

BTW: Anybody see Fagan tonight. mmm mmm mmm. And check out Snapshots at the History Theater while it lasts.

It was difficult to see? A guy walking with his family after diner gets shot in the head after his mom is robbed and its “difficult to see?” Give me a break! It’s frightening. Can I even walk around this city anymore?

Oh wait, the guy was living a high risk lifestyle. Walking. With his mother. He should have known better (sarcasm).

I like the quote from the Strib. “Safety tips from police include traveling in groups, parking in lighted areas, carrying a cell phone, avoiding intoxication and not fighting back.” Hmm. Maybe they didn’t have a cell phone.

Can’t wait for the warmer weather, I’m sure things will settle down then.

C’mon, Rybak, let’s see some action here!

WTF? The Willmar, Minn. pastor who secretly taped state Senate Majority Leader on the issue of gay marriage requested extra police patrol at his Sunday worship for fear of protesters.

How much of a police presence do they normally have at the Harvest Community Church of God? Between Dean Johnson and this asshat, the Christians are really doing themselves proud.

I like the graphic in that CCO story. It looks like Dennis Douda and that creepy noontime news anchor holding hands.

Hmmmm…wonder why the Strib did not mention concealed carry?

Concealed carry. Bud, first, let me say that I have a cc permit, so don’t go off too fast. But, do you want to get in a fast draw contest with someone who’s already go the drop on you? Let’s say there is an incident where someone successfully defends himself, I see two possible outcomes. First, the bad guys stop robbing people in Uptown at gunpoint because they think they might get shot. Or, second, they shoot first and take your wallet from your body because they think they might get shot. I wish I knew which was more likely. I really wish the cops would do a sting operation or whatever is necessary to get this asshole off the street…and if he gets shot in the process, well I guess I wouldn’t mind that.

That is an awesome graphic.

It doesn’t seem like either one is likely, since the permit-to-carry law (not conceal carry) has been in effect for the better part of two years and neither has yet to take place.

Besides, you aren’t likely to have your gun on you anyway because you had to take it off before you went in the restaurant, so it’s probably in your glove box or just at home where it does you next to no good.

In light of this tragedy, it is idiotic and inappropriate to debate what would have happened if another gun were involved. That is why the newspaper didn’t speculate on it, along with the dozen or so other variables that may or may not have been part of the scenario. Maybe the victims did have a gun but didn’t use it — do you know?

The quote that Chris references is from a police officer — not a Strib quote; the PiPress, CCO — no one mentioned right to carry. When asked, police officers don’t say “carry a gun” because it is not practical advice, pure and simple.

This is a tragic, awful situation. Making off-handed, uninformed comments about it does absolutely nothing to help.

I thought Bud’s question was assuming that someone would be carrying. But, you have a good point Kevin. Like I said, I’d like to see the cops organize a sting to get these guys.

What would help is if the cops got this asshole. Any word on what they are doing about that?

Maybe I’m the only one who remembers everyone stating that the gun law would reduce crime because criminals would be less likely to attack if they don’t know if you might be carrying a gun or not.

I see that worked well….

It hasn’t created high-noon showdowns either. If I were a criminal I wouldn’t be worried at all because you can’t hardly take your gun anywhere, so why worry?

Steven Levitt, in Freakonomics, analyzed, in economic terms the likely outcomes for a armed robbery victim who was carrying a gun. Not good.

so… conceal-carry hasn’t had the predicted impact of reducing violent crime because we’ve allowed private individuals and businesses to decide whether or not they would allow people to carry guns on their property? i must say, that’s an interesting way to spin the stupidity of that law.

Let’s get straight what the law is. The law sets uniform standards for distributing permits across the state and allows businesses to prohibit guns from their premises. Prior to the law, there was no coherent guideline for issuing permits and guns could have too easily fallen into the hands of people who shouldn’t have them (keeping in mind of course that the shooter in this case probably didn’t get a permit before wielding his weapon).

It’s good that you can’t take guns into schools, but I think that the business opt-out essentially cuts the legs out from under the law. What’s the point of getting a permit if you can’t carry the gun anywhere? If I had one, and I live in Uptown so maybe I should, I’d leave it at home everyday because I don’t go anywhere that allows them. So I guess if I get robbed in my home (another disturbing Uptown trend) and I can get to the gun it could help prevent a more serious crime. Otherwise, it’s about as useful as my laundry basket.

Why do conservatives hates property rights?

I know plenty of cc carriers that will not do business at establishments that ‘don’t allow’ guns.

Some think they may as well put up another sign that says “Feel free to rob us and our customers’.

My barber had it right. His sign said “Guns welcome. Absolutely no cell phones allowed”.

Hypothetically speaking, if a permit holder is truly carrying concealed, no one should even know he HAS a weapon on him.

Therefore, a misguided merchant who thinks a sign saves him from shootouts may be surprised that there are weapons actually being carried within their establishment.

The law states that they must verbally request a carrier to leave the premise.

And that the carrier must comply.

Point being, short of frisking everyone, how would they know?

I’m going to guess that this type of crime occurs very frequently — maybe weekly or even more often — in other parts of the city and gets nary a peep on this Web site. Just sayin’.

Bud: I know plenty of cc carriers that will not do business at establishments that ‘don’t allow’ guns.

So those signs keep out both guns and rednecks! Bonus!!!

Again, using this incident for your personal political springboard for gun rights is abhorent, especially by twisting the truth.

Kevin, you are completely wrong, and there is no basis for the your implied statement that the reason the law was changed was because “guns could have too easily fallen into the hands of people who shouldn’t have them”. The push was for it to be a “shall issue” state so more people could get guns. That is a fact.

There is also not one piece of factual evidence that businesses are “cutting the legs out” from under the law. In fact, the pro-gun crowd in Minnesota says exactly the opposite: that the ‘no guns’ signs have been a complete failure in limiting the right to carry law.

If you have something to say about such an important topic, get your shit together and know what you are talking about.

mike s:

So the second amendment is for rednecks?

Just checking.

What affectionate term do you use for a criminal using a gun?

Uptown businesses draw customers from all over the metro. The gov’t makes money off taxing those businesses. If crime continues, business will suffer, and tax revenue will suffer. Then the city won’t have as much money to police the other parts of the city, and crime get worse there too. Point being, you have to protect your cash-cows, they give you money to operate elsewhere. If your cash-cows suffer, your entire city suffers. Hopefully this Uptown crime trend gets turned around, quickly.

Heinous crimes such as this, while tragic, also serve to spotlight the issue of citizens’ rights to defend themselves.

Concealed carry is obviously an aspect of that issue.

Sorry you find gun rights abhorrent, but then, most liberals do, right up until having one might make a difference.

Just ask the thousands in LA who suddenly were ‘pro-gun’ when the riots threatened.

>> What’s the point of getting a permit if you can’t carry the gun anywhere?

I’m sorry, but what’s the point in owning property if you can’t tell people they can’t carry a gun on it?????

Bud, based on your typical posts on this site, I don’t expect you to be able to comprehend full sentences, but I didn’t say I find gun rights abhorrent.

Sorry for the personal slight, but that is just my expectation.

Again, as it appears you are making comments based off of newspaper reports, you really have no idea as to how adding another gun to the situation would have changed the situation, so, please, implying it would have.

Again, using this incident for your personal political springboard for gun rights is abhorent, especially by twisting the truth. – spaceman

Sorry you find gun rights abhorrent, but then, most liberals do, right up until having one might make a difference. – bud

Might want to read that statement again, bud.

Thanks spaceman, but I do have my shit together. Shall issue means there are specific guidelines for who does and does not get a permit, and “does not” includes people with certain criminal records who may have been able to get them before the change. Can issue or whatever we called what we were before creates a situation with guidelines that vary widely across the state.

As far as the signs, if they are a “failure in limiting the right to carry law” then I saw great! because I don’t think the law should be limited in that way. I’d like to see a survey of permit holders, though, so we would know what their actions tend to be.

That being said, this thread has gone off track.

Forget about permits for a second, is anyone else outraged that a guy had to get shot in the head while walking with his mom before the local folks realized there is a problem here? Seriously.

I personally would like our mayor to come out of hiding on this issue and define what a “high risk lifestyle” is so I know not to do those things. When choosing our next top cop, I hope the powers that be make the right decision.

. . . stop implying it would have.

Bud, based on your typical posts on this site, I don’t expect you to be able to comprehend full sentences

These arguments always seem to lead to someone accusing a conservative of not being sufficiently educated. Seems sort of childish.

When I walk around in my neighborhood, I feel nervous whenever I’m alone on a street with two or more black men. I hate that I feel this way, but it’s how I feel. I’m trying to picture how it would be different if I was carrying a gun, and it seems like I’d be more nervous – like the gun is somehow going to attract trouble like a magnet. Maybe I just don’t have enough experience with guns. (although i did take a gun safety class when I was thirteen)

On the other hand, sometimes I indulge in the gun-toting, vigilante justice fantasy, and the thought of shooting a bad guy helps me to cope with the frustration of being scared and not knowing how to fix the situation.

I can’t imagine seeing one of my family members die that way. I can’t even begin to imagine it.

I took the same assumption you did, that as a liberal, you abhor gun rights.

Prove me wrong “spaceman”.

“My barber had it right. His sign said “Guns welcome. Absolutely no cell phones allowed”.”

Finally I understand why they all have the same haircut…

Bud, what assumption are you talking about?

Adam, I said nothing of about “conservative” — or liberal for that matter. I said “Bud”. Period.

It’s unusual for people who don’t resist to be SHOT… in the HEAD… TWICE… as the criminals are FLEEING, let alone the fact that it happened in Uptown, rather than north Minneapolis. To borrow an old expression, those random acts of violence and senseless brutality are definitely dog-bites-man news.

Freakonomics comes to the proper conclusion on this one — the net effect of conceal and carry is nil. I’d like to take the freedom-and-liberty-to-carry side, but packers piss me off with all their whining about all the rules involved with carrying around their ersatz security blankets. I can’t think of anything else so dangerous that isn’t significantly more regulated (motor vehicles, anyone?), especially with such limited utility.

No, Kevin, that is not what shall issue means. And criminal record prohibitions were already in the previous law. But you are right, and that was part of the reason for my initial post: the post got off track as soon as “concealed carry” was typed.

If you wanna chat about the old law and new law, feel free to email me. Otherwise, while I understand you are concerned about crime, spreading misinformation is not going to help.

It’s too damn long to list here, but there is a House Research summary document of 2003 Session Law Chapter 28 that details various changes to eligibility. Here is the even briefer summary:
Article III of this bill imposes a lifetime ban on firearm possession for persons who commit felony-level crimes of violence. Under current law, the possession restriction ends ten years after discharge from sentence for violent felons. It establishes a process by which a person can petition the court to restore firearm possession rights. It modifies the definition of crime of violence. It also makes other related changes.

Article III is really long, even in summary. You can find this at http://www.house.mn and search for “permit to carry.” This law was voided later on but re-passed last year in what I believe was identical form.

Kevin, that is a provision that is separate and exclusive of the “shall issue” permit portion. Again, if you wanna talk, email me. I’d email you, but you aren’t registered, so I can’t.

Not that it probably matters to anyone else but having a story about a mugging resulting in the death of one of the victims result in a fucking “conversation” about concealed weapons is a new low for mnspeak.

Prior law left it up to the ‘discretion’ of the local chief of police in many cases.

“Shall issue” grants it so long as the applicant be of age, pass a background check and pass an accredited firearms course.

Agreed, not2sure. That said:

Bud: So the second amendment is for rednecks?

No, boycotting businesses because they won’t allow you to pack heat is for rednecks.

It only matters, not2sure, to liberals who are defined by their feelings, not by the facts.

I just spec-u-tated on why concealed carry wasn’t mentioned as a ‘precaution’ against murderous purse-snatchers roaming Uptown.

I have yet to hear about any crime foiled by registered firearm carriers, but I also thought that there would be a rash of shootings by same, which thank Jeebus never occured either.

Not2sure, yes, it matters to me. If you read my comments, that is exactly what I am arguing.

FYI, I’m ‘not2sure’ that the victim has died.

This political maverick with progressive tendencies (i.e., unrepentant Nader voter) has a plea for the liberal-minded folk lamenting the conceal-and-carry law: Next Saturday night (especially if the weather is warm), take a stroll down the Hennepin Avenue side of Block E and ask yourself whether the conceal-and-carry law is anywhere near the Top 20 problems facing this City and State.

Thandiwe Peebles, Chief McManus, and the Uptown shooting: Does anyone else perceive a nexus beneath the surface? It’s time to stop pandering to the lowest common denominator. Yo!

Well yes its separate, but it still affects who shall be issued a permit doesn’t it?

Not2sure-
I think we are having more of a conversation about what may or may not stop this crime wave than anyone I’ve heard from our elected and appointed “leaders.” At this point I’d rather have anyone who has commented so far be in charge of a solution than the folks we have now, who have been largely invisible.

Maybe they’re too busy driving off that $400/month car allowance.

Just a correction to an earlier statement, business owners are no longer required to verbally tell people that guns are not allowed in an establishment. The “and” was changed to “or” in the new version of the law that passed last year. A sign is now sufficient.

I’m not totally up on the newest revision of the carry law. Does this mean that if I go into a business with a sign that says no guns and I’m discovered to have a gun, that I will be cited/fined? Or does it just mean that they have the right to kick me out?

Tate – verrrrry interesting.

More please.

I could be wrong about this, but I think carriers are required to have a sign saying I HAVE A GUN.

I know the police budget is kinda slim, but I think going back to the old “foot beat” might be a deterrant to this kind of crime in areas like Uptown. Or, at the very least, more bike patrols in the uptown area. I just see the police driving around in their squads a lot, and I can’t imagine they have a really accurate picture of what’s going on from a car.

The pols (RYBAK) will not get overly excited by this because if they do, the ‘community leaders’ on the north side will complain that it is proof that the same shootings that take place on the NORTH end of town aren’t as ‘important’.

The fact that should be VERY closely examined is the 39% increase in robberies in that ward (5th).

How about the skyrocketing number of rapes?

Same concern.

Not a positive trend.

Bottom line, the city is obviously getting a bit ‘out of control’.

Discuss.

Tate, you seem to be onto something interesting. care to start?

It seems like a confluence of factors — budget crunches from the last few years resulting in a smaller police presence, hard economic times and fewer government programs targeting low income families and individuals, and any number of other factors.

While the economy at large seems as if it may have turned a corner, it takes a while for the full effects of a tight economy to be evident. I think what we’re seeing are the last few years coming home to roost.

Just my two cents, and I’m no expert, but I don’t think there’s any sort of simple solution. More cops is a start, but to get people out of “high-risk lifestyles” you need to offer more than the potential for jail time.

Hey, I have an idea — how about all the people discussing “skyrocketing” “out of control” crime start by explaining actual changes in crime rates, and what parts of the city are being affected? Without some non-anecdotal evidence, I’m not buying any of this.

Oh, and Mike S — ask and ye shall receive. I don’t have time to make the comparison, but all the stats you could ever want can be found here.

Let’s all meet at 10pm this Saturday down by block E.

We’ll do some research, yo.

Richg, you are right that there is a confluence of factors, not just a bad economy. Someone earlier mentioned a Steven Levitt study in Freakanomics. He did another economic study that wasn’t included in the book called, “Using Electoral Cycles in Police Hiring to Estimate the Effect of Police on Crime”. Since you can’t just study police hiring and crime because there is no way to determine a causal relationship, he noticed that police hiring in most major cities rose as elections drew near. He then used the election cycle as an explanitory variable for crime (while controlling for several other variables).

He found that police hiring does significantly reduce violent crime rates, but not necessarily property crime.

If anyone is interested, the study was published in the Journal of Economic Literature in June 1997. You can get to it through Jstor if you have online library access.

Another answer: if you are carrying a firearm, the business owner may ask you to leave. If you refuse, the police will remove you from the premises. You could be fined ($25, if memory serves,) although your gun cannot be taken from you. If you leave when asked, no harm, no foul.

Then I don’t really see how anything has changed with the revision of the carry law.

If I got my carry permit, I’d carry everywhere. The signs on the doors really don’t mean anything, considering that if you do a decent job of concealing your gun nobody would know that you are carrying anyways.

All I know, regardless of statistics, is that Uptown is a scary place. Whether or not it’s better or worse than it used to be, you don’t really hear of this kind of stuff happening in northeast or northloop. Something really has to be done.

In the North Loop, they get you with a two-by-four. So how do the freakanomics compute when a victim armed with a handgun is facing an assailant armed with a two-by-four?

Now why is it so difficult to find any information about the suspect arrested in the beating incident?

Obviously if someone’s going after someone that’s carrying with a 2×4, they aren’t very smart.

Mistake 1, however, was going to Cuzzy’s. That place seems like a redneck bar in the middle of the city.

That place seems like a redneck bar in the middle of the city.

Actually, Cuzzy’s is pretty sweet if you’re then on a weeknight. Make sure you have a $1 bill.

word. cuzzy’s rocks. don’t be dissing on cuzzy’s.

in fact, don’t mention cuzzy’s. it’s our little secret.

And Cuzzy’s is “open ’til closed!”

I hate to change the subject, but could anybody out there negotiate the mental gymnastics required to decipher Soucheray’s screed today? Not that it’s much different than most days, but I guess since today’s column was linked, I thought there might be something to it. But for the life of me, I couldn’t make heads or tails of his logic. Is he ‘gently chiding’ the Phelps crew? Gays? Becky Lourey? Or is he defying his hard-right base and actually applauding Lourey? Christ, I need an advil…

Nye’s bouncer was shot dead by a permit holder.

I gave up on Soucheray after that pathetic little column last week about the big bad McClatchy folks. Actually, I gave up on him a long time ago.

Sorry guys, Cuzzy’s may rock, but it’s just the type of place to attract beatings with 2×4s.

As for the Nye’s bouncer, one isolated incident means nothing.

That said, I think it should be illegal to be drunk while carrying a permit-firearm.

I’ll be the first to admit my stat-crunching abilities aren’t great, but a cursory examination of the CODEFOR stats for Jan 03 and Jan 06 does seem to show a discernable rise in crime between the two time periods. Someone with more interest in raw numbers could probably put together the actual percentage increase in total crime and individual types of crime.

It is illegal to drink and carry. The limit is .04, or half the limit for driving.

Here is the permit to carry statute.

that shooting really scares me. i live in uptown and my husband walks home from work late every night. it would be wonderful if there were no guns on this planet, but that’s just crazy talk, i know.

I moved here 6+ years ago from Detroit in order to get away from a depressed and desperate culture where violent crime is the norm (DETROIT…we average 1 murder per day…this could be your lucky day!!!). In Detroit you could count “safe” neighborhoods on one hand, unlike MPLS where you can count the “un-safe” neighborhoods on one hand….I hope that this was truly random and isolated, and that we don’t see a continuing trend of shootings in areas where law-abiding, respectable citizens habitate. I suppose I should take solace in the fact that in MPLS murders are still reported on the nightly news.

Increased muffings seem to go hand in hand with decreased murders. I think the cops reallocated resources. I know the SAFE unit was rolled into that special response team last summer.

Cops are saying that most of the muggings can be attributed to black male teens who have started carrying guns when robbing.

What the fuck is the answer to this?

the diablo clip is here

http://youtube.com/watch?v=XIH13_KUlaI

I’m not a huge fan, but I must say she WAS outstanding. I just watched the clip and was pleasantly surprised.

Why have we heard NOTHING more about the guy who killed Thomas Dahl? A professional , a father of two, is BEATEN with a 2×4 on a Wednesday night, and left to die in the street.

NOTHING.

Why does this city and it’s media (Star Tribune) insist on sticking it’s head in the sand about WHO the criminals are?

Why do we hand wring over a brutal robbery and murder in Uptown?

Why do we get glorifying stories about 14 YEAR OLD MOTHERS on the front page of today’s Star Tribune?

WHY?

Because, Bud, they give us Katherine Kersten twice a week. That’s “balance,” which is what news organizations like the Strib substitute for truth these days.

Point taken.

There’s definitely a nexus here and it includes the $198 skirts and Claude Peck’s bikini waxing screeds.

the uptown shooting scares me. I drive by the site of the shooting every day. I live eight blocks away. I go to uptown all the time. I know someone who lives on that block, just a few houses away from where it happened. She was walking home ten minutes before it happened. It could have been her. She thinks what saved her was that she didn’t have a purse to steal. What really scares me though is that the people, as far as we know, did nothing wrong. They gave the guys the purse. They were in a group. A cell phone wouldn’t have helped, it’d have been in the purse. What are they going to do with it? Say “Excuse me, can i have my cell phone out of the purse so i can call the police?” ? THat would have been worse. I don’t want uptown to be a dangerous place. When I go out to eat, i always walk (in a group) but I don’t know how safe even that is anymore. If its dinner its bound to get dark. You can always not bring any extra money or valuables, but them i’m afraid that if I get held up, they won’t belive me when i say i don’t have anything to give them. What has minneapolis come to that we can’t even be safe in Uptown?

Kevin and Bud comment frequently, but don’t have the nuts to include an email address. Spaceman stands behind what he says by making his email public. How do we know that each comment by Kevin is really by the same Kevin? Funny how the guys who don’t care to have their identities known are finger-pointing about who’s a liberal and what that means.

The beauty of the internet is that one may remain anonymous if one chooses.

Doesn’t mean my opinion is less valid, or does it?

My opinion? I hope the next murderous thug who attempts to rob someone in this town gets a faceful of lead from a permit holder.

You want to draw down on me and my family, you WILL pay the price.

Coincidence that the Strib virtually LAUDS the reduction of gun stores in town? Mom and pop variety.

Uh, Gander Mountain, Cabela’s, Dick’s anyone?

The beauty of the internet is that it’s a stage where people can interact in modified ways, bringing out new forms of communication, creativity, and comedy.

And did you say “face full of lead”? What are you, in a western?

Yep, in my mind, it’s a western!

Yeehawwwwwwwwwwww!

Kare11 is reporting the cops may have arrested suspects in the Uptown shooting.

Police are telling me its highly unlikely that those three are the ones involved in the Uptown murder. They’re looking into it, but the reason they’re not releasing a detailed description is that they are checking out other specific people.

An odd post on a 9/11 conspiracy site about the shooting victim, which implies that they believe he may have been executed for being a 9/11 scholar.