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	<title>Comments on: Journalistic Threshold Below Google Search</title>
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	<link>http://www.secretsofthecity.com/mnspeak/8934</link>
	<description>Minneapolis + St. Paul</description>
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		<title>By: Ricky</title>
		<link>http://www.secretsofthecity.com/mnspeak/8934#comment-26809</link>
		<dc:creator>Ricky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Mar 2006 00:56:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-26809</guid>
		<description>Tom,&lt;br /&gt;
Solid response.&lt;br /&gt;
You&#039;re right on about the larger picture. But good things can still happen in a classroom even if students are under-prepared when they get there and are too busy when they leave.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
The sentence you cited is awful, but what writing teacher can&#039;t offer a horrid example of a student&#039;s work?&lt;br /&gt;
I can only talk about my own experience, but I don&#039;t remember my time at the U being as easy as you describe. Part of that is because I did a double major, waited tables and completed a couple of internships.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
As you rightly mentioned, many students at the U are badly hindered by their schedules.&lt;br /&gt;
I&#039;ve often wished I had put more time into some of my classes.&lt;br /&gt;
Instead of doing three things (work, school, internship) OK, I should have been doing one (school) well. It&#039;s a shitty system because I couldn&#039;t.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Still, some classes have better results than others.&lt;br /&gt;
J-School classes are hit or miss. Some are challenging and rewarding and others aren&#039;t. Upper division writing classes really didn&#039;t have extensive writing prerequisites, so I&#039;m not sure how far along you expected your students to be.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I&#039;m not a bitter ex-student with a grudge, in fact I liked the class I had with you and I like your mag.&lt;br /&gt;
But like the students&#039; preparation and the writing samples we dissected in class, it could have been better.&lt;br /&gt;
Hopefully, none of my work made you cry. You ripped the hell out of some of it and mildly praised it sometimes too, both rightfully so.&lt;br /&gt;
I think a little more encouragement, help with editing and a more positive atmosphere would have improved the class a lot. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I wouldn&#039;t want to make $13 an hour grading papers either. But then again, I don&#039;t want to make less than that as a full time reporter, but I do.&lt;br /&gt;
So don&#039;t feel too dismayed on behalf of your former students. Like you said, the most meaningful education they get is what they get on their own.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Those that really want to have a solid journalism career will figure out a way to do it.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom,<br />
Solid response.<br />
You&#8217;re right on about the larger picture. But good things can still happen in a classroom even if students are under-prepared when they get there and are too busy when they leave.</p>
<p>The sentence you cited is awful, but what writing teacher can&#8217;t offer a horrid example of a student&#8217;s work?<br />
I can only talk about my own experience, but I don&#8217;t remember my time at the U being as easy as you describe. Part of that is because I did a double major, waited tables and completed a couple of internships.</p>
<p>As you rightly mentioned, many students at the U are badly hindered by their schedules.<br />
I&#8217;ve often wished I had put more time into some of my classes.<br />
Instead of doing three things (work, school, internship) OK, I should have been doing one (school) well. It&#8217;s a shitty system because I couldn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>Still, some classes have better results than others.<br />
J-School classes are hit or miss. Some are challenging and rewarding and others aren&#8217;t. Upper division writing classes really didn&#8217;t have extensive writing prerequisites, so I&#8217;m not sure how far along you expected your students to be.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not a bitter ex-student with a grudge, in fact I liked the class I had with you and I like your mag.<br />
But like the students&#8217; preparation and the writing samples we dissected in class, it could have been better.<br />
Hopefully, none of my work made you cry. You ripped the hell out of some of it and mildly praised it sometimes too, both rightfully so.<br />
I think a little more encouragement, help with editing and a more positive atmosphere would have improved the class a lot. </p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t want to make $13 an hour grading papers either. But then again, I don&#8217;t want to make less than that as a full time reporter, but I do.<br />
So don&#8217;t feel too dismayed on behalf of your former students. Like you said, the most meaningful education they get is what they get on their own.</p>
<p>Those that really want to have a solid journalism career will figure out a way to do it.</p>
<p></p>
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		<title>By: jderusha</title>
		<link>http://www.secretsofthecity.com/mnspeak/8934#comment-26703</link>
		<dc:creator>jderusha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Mar 2006 04:13:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-26703</guid>
		<description>Not2Sure, I am sure that you&#039;re right.  I&#039;ve already issued a correction.  I regret the error.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not2Sure, I am sure that you&#8217;re right.  I&#8217;ve already issued a correction.  I regret the error.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.secretsofthecity.com/mnspeak/8934#comment-26702</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Mar 2006 03:39:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-26702</guid>
		<description>God damn, I read that thing about blonde hair in the Strib and immmediately thought it was bogus (or a joke), and I&#039;m not even a journalist. What&#039;s the matter with these people? The Strib and the Pi Press are crap newspapers. I feel I&#039;m far better off reading the NY Times or the Wall Street Journal a few times a week and gettting the breaking news off the &#039;net. The only reason to read the Strib regularly is for the baseball scores during the summer. Otherwise, that paper and the Pioneer Press are pretty much worthless. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>God damn, I read that thing about blonde hair in the Strib and immmediately thought it was bogus (or a joke), and I&#8217;m not even a journalist. What&#8217;s the matter with these people? The Strib and the Pi Press are crap newspapers. I feel I&#8217;m far better off reading the NY Times or the Wall Street Journal a few times a week and gettting the breaking news off the &#8216;net. The only reason to read the Strib regularly is for the baseball scores during the summer. Otherwise, that paper and the Pioneer Press are pretty much worthless.</p>
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		<title>By: A-Train</title>
		<link>http://www.secretsofthecity.com/mnspeak/8934#comment-26701</link>
		<dc:creator>A-Train</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Mar 2006 02:31:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-26701</guid>
		<description>I majored in journalism at the U for the same reason I smoke cigarettes--because it makes me cooler than the other kids.&lt;br /&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I majored in journalism at the U for the same reason I smoke cigarettes&#8211;because it makes me cooler than the other kids.</p>
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		<title>By: Not2Sure</title>
		<link>http://www.secretsofthecity.com/mnspeak/8934#comment-26696</link>
		<dc:creator>Not2Sure</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Mar 2006 01:24:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-26696</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d wager rather...  &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Have to agree on the cut and paste jobs on NYT stories though.  Pretty much why I cancelled my subscription.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d wager rather&#8230;  </p>
<p>Have to agree on the cut and paste jobs on NYT stories though.  Pretty much why I cancelled my subscription.</p>
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		<title>By: Not2Sure</title>
		<link>http://www.secretsofthecity.com/mnspeak/8934#comment-26695</link>
		<dc:creator>Not2Sure</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Mar 2006 00:43:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-26695</guid>
		<description>Odds are you&#039;re going to wager going to live to regret that particularly quotable &quot;google&quot; comment, jderusha.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Glass houses, stones, etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Odds are you&#8217;re going to wager going to live to regret that particularly quotable &#8220;google&#8221; comment, jderusha.</p>
<p>Glass houses, stones, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: CFKC</title>
		<link>http://www.secretsofthecity.com/mnspeak/8934#comment-26687</link>
		<dc:creator>CFKC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Mar 2006 00:27:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-26687</guid>
		<description>I followed Corey&#039;s link to MSU paper and got distracted by the Victoria&#039;s Secret ad and forgot to read the story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I followed Corey&#8217;s link to MSU paper and got distracted by the Victoria&#8217;s Secret ad and forgot to read the story.</p>
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		<title>By: Tbartel</title>
		<link>http://www.secretsofthecity.com/mnspeak/8934#comment-26686</link>
		<dc:creator>Tbartel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Mar 2006 00:24:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-26686</guid>
		<description>Ricky: only some of them. I&#039;ve hired four of my students, so far. I can post some of the work from the mag writing class if you&#039;d like to see whether or not criticism of some of the others is justified.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Here&#039;s one of my favorites: &quot;The magazine closed its West Coast office as a result of the terrorist attack that tripped the economy like a model on a runway.&quot;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Contempt is not exactly accurate, though. Dismay is a better description of my feeling on behalf of students who got to be seniors at a major American university without ever having their work critiqued and improved before they got to me teaching a 5-level course. I blame teachers who just move people through the system. That&#039;s the low barrier I was talking about.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
I could also go into how the U divvies up its budgets among departments. To some degree it works like this: The more majors, the more students, the more money. So, speaking purely economically, a department has a tremendous disincentive to make its undergraduate courses rigorous--and thereby discourage students from taking them. I&#039;m not saying that goes on in the J-school, but you can draw your own conclusions about which departments draw the most majors. Finally, there&#039;s the whole problem with undergrad and grad students. The faculty is a lot more interested in the grad students than they are in the undergrads. So, the undergrads get shoved into classes that are too big, with faculty who have to teach people who aren&#039;t interested in their topics, with faculty who are required to do research as well as teach, and with faculty who mostly abhor teaching survey level courses. In professors&#039; defense, they also don&#039;t like to assign too much work, because that makes more work for them. I had classes of 30 students and required up to seven short papers. That adds up to 210 papers I had to read. Would you like to read and critique 210 U of M undergrad papers for the equivalent of about $13/hour?&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Undergrads are, in effect, largely cheated out of their tuition, in my opinion. The most meaningful education they get is what they get on their own. It sure isn&#039;t coming from a TA. &lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
On the rare occasion a student gets a demanding teacher, it&#039;s a huge shock--mostly because it hasn&#039;t happened before. I made a point of asking the student who wrote the sentence above what sort of grades he&#039;d got before he got to me. He had a 3.6 average in journalism. I didn&#039;t believe him, so I checked his departmental records. He wasn&#039;t lying.&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
Ok, one more thing: most U students have to work to pay the outrageous tuition now being charged. They neglect their academic lives because they have to wait tables 40 hours a week to pay tuition and living expenses. It&#039;s a shitty system. And it&#039;s a system that turns out journalists who are trained, often but not always, to just get by. That&#039;s the effect of the system. That&#039;s American education. The degree matters, the education doesn&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ricky: only some of them. I&#8217;ve hired four of my students, so far. I can post some of the work from the mag writing class if you&#8217;d like to see whether or not criticism of some of the others is justified.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s one of my favorites: &#8220;The magazine closed its West Coast office as a result of the terrorist attack that tripped the economy like a model on a runway.&#8221;</p>
<p>Contempt is not exactly accurate, though. Dismay is a better description of my feeling on behalf of students who got to be seniors at a major American university without ever having their work critiqued and improved before they got to me teaching a 5-level course. I blame teachers who just move people through the system. That&#8217;s the low barrier I was talking about.</p>
<p>I could also go into how the U divvies up its budgets among departments. To some degree it works like this: The more majors, the more students, the more money. So, speaking purely economically, a department has a tremendous disincentive to make its undergraduate courses rigorous&#8211;and thereby discourage students from taking them. I&#8217;m not saying that goes on in the J-school, but you can draw your own conclusions about which departments draw the most majors. Finally, there&#8217;s the whole problem with undergrad and grad students. The faculty is a lot more interested in the grad students than they are in the undergrads. So, the undergrads get shoved into classes that are too big, with faculty who have to teach people who aren&#8217;t interested in their topics, with faculty who are required to do research as well as teach, and with faculty who mostly abhor teaching survey level courses. In professors&#8217; defense, they also don&#8217;t like to assign too much work, because that makes more work for them. I had classes of 30 students and required up to seven short papers. That adds up to 210 papers I had to read. Would you like to read and critique 210 U of M undergrad papers for the equivalent of about $13/hour?</p>
<p>
Undergrads are, in effect, largely cheated out of their tuition, in my opinion. The most meaningful education they get is what they get on their own. It sure isn&#8217;t coming from a TA. </p>
<p>On the rare occasion a student gets a demanding teacher, it&#8217;s a huge shock&#8211;mostly because it hasn&#8217;t happened before. I made a point of asking the student who wrote the sentence above what sort of grades he&#8217;d got before he got to me. He had a 3.6 average in journalism. I didn&#8217;t believe him, so I checked his departmental records. He wasn&#8217;t lying.</p>
<p>Ok, one more thing: most U students have to work to pay the outrageous tuition now being charged. They neglect their academic lives because they have to wait tables 40 hours a week to pay tuition and living expenses. It&#8217;s a shitty system. And it&#8217;s a system that turns out journalists who are trained, often but not always, to just get by. That&#8217;s the effect of the system. That&#8217;s American education. The degree matters, the education doesn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Corey Anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.secretsofthecity.com/mnspeak/8934#comment-26685</link>
		<dc:creator>Corey Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Mar 2006 00:12:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-26685</guid>
		<description>The MSU Reporter fact-checker couldn&#039;t keep Norm Coleman from becoming the governor of Minnesota, however...&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
http://www.msureporter.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2006/03/09/4410381e5d27c</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The MSU Reporter fact-checker couldn&#8217;t keep Norm Coleman from becoming the governor of Minnesota, however&#8230;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.msureporter.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2006/03/09/4410381e5d27c" rel="nofollow">http://www.msureporter.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2006/03/09/4410381e5d27c</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ricky</title>
		<link>http://www.secretsofthecity.com/mnspeak/8934#comment-26681</link>
		<dc:creator>Ricky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Mar 2006 22:48:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-26681</guid>
		<description>Tom, &lt;br /&gt;
Nice to know you still have the same contempt for J-school students that you showed during class.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, <br />
Nice to know you still have the same contempt for J-school students that you showed during class.</p>
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