Secrets of the City

the website is an exercise in futility

much like the trashy little magazine.

I don’t care that the magazine is fluff, what annoys me is that they can’t seem to hire a copy editor. Or a proofreader. Or use a spell-check. Or hire writers who can write.

The site is a little difficult and the magazine isn’t perfect, but I work with one of their writers and the little I’ve heard about the magazine, it’s a real labor of love. If you want perfect hyphenation, read Mpls. St. Paul… if you want to read the voices of some of your fellow young urbanites, don’t dismiss Industry too quickly.

How about the way the much-hyped downtown Zeno closed? For as big of a deal some made it out to be it sure didn’t last long.

If I want perfect hyphenation, I’ll read a college freshman’s work. It’ll certainly be better written and edited than any given issue of Industry.

The most recent issue sported incorrect usage of there/their/they’re – no doubt challenging for even a college freshman.

I know a lot of people in the “industry” who really love the mag. This is telling. Let’s loosen up on the hyphenation, eh? I’ll gladly offer up my copywriting services to them if anybody has a contact there.

Having owned a newspaper, I will add that while hyphenation perhaps shouldn’t be so important, IT IS! These small — or not so small — details are can make or break your credibility, authority, ect. It’s the nature of the medium.

I love that this has become a discussion on punctuation! I agree with Cristina- those details matter. I get e-mails on grammar all the time.. if you use poor grammer as a writer/reporter, people wonder what else you’re screwing up.

That said- I thought the articles were cool. A nice niche… good stuff.

You’re talking to a bona fide grammar geek (my presence and comments on this site should be ignored ). My parents owned a newspaper at one time, I was an English major in college, and I write for a living… So, I’m not saying grammar isn’t important, it is! And there/their/they’re is like fingernails on a chalkboard, but I guess all I’m trying to say is that Industry’s a magazine with a little bit of heart and ambition, so hopefully some of those attributes can balance out their occasional misuses of the language.

Exactly. It’s just a shame for what appears to be such a cool niche publication and “labour of love” to lose any credibility over something as basic as grammar. It’s not a difficult problem to solve.

The discussion isn’t about grammar, punctuation, copyediting, or anything of the nature. The discussion is about the basic level of competence required to run a professional publication.

Industry isn’t more than a notch or two over a zine and never will be until they decide that substance is as important as style.

Let me shed a little light on this topic and, if need be, act as your proverbial dartboard. I’ve been with Industry since its inception, doing my best to make my Sense of Sound column interesting enough to keep you from drowning in your cereal. If you think I’m lacking as a journalist, this is your opinion and I respect that. However, this is not how I feed my face at night. If I did, chances are you’d see me rumaging through trash bins rather than responding on this board, because much of the Industry staff (writers, designers, photographers) work Pro Bono. It is indeed a “labor of love”.

Industry, the brainchild of entrepreneur Tricia Heuring, started from scratch less than two years ago. She does this because she loves Mpls/StP, its community and its culture. If you think there is money to be made in our saturated local publication market, you are wrong. I can speak for everyone there, that we are not looking for accolades (although we love’em), we just want to bring you the latest our modest little cities have to offer. In my opinion, we improve with every issue. Metaphorically speaking, in terms of publication years, we were just born yesterday…

Thanks for picking it up if you do.

How’s my hyphenation?

zenrhino – Perhaps we could cut them a little slack as they figure these things out? I don’t think they’ve been around long. I’m sure they started out with a plan to brand themselves as slick, pretty and hip. Grammar doesn’t always factor into those three things. Hopefully it will in phase 2, if they make it that far.

I’d say it is considerably more than a ‘zine if we’re all talking about it (having seen and read it at least once).

Cristina – exactly to your exactly. I think it might help if this discussion, or some of these sentiments, were brought directly to the magazine…

You’re right, gerg. I’ll give it a shot.

Done… with an offer of copywriting or proofing services.

I just don’t get it. If you love something, don’t you strive to do as well by it as possible? Grammar and proper spelling — as well as crafting compelling leads and checking facts — aren’t just niceties that can be added to a publication after it has gotten off the ground. They are the very basics of writing for publication.

And I don’t have any real opinions about your journalistic skills, but this opening sentence &

“Much like the rabid cult following her music cultivated during her time here in the Twin Cities, Jordis Unga rapidly became a fan favorite on the CBS reality series INXS Rockstar Fall, earning her kudos from everyone from the shows host, Dave Navarro, to an ex-President.”

& made my eyes bleed. I preume you wrote it, yes? It’s just heavy and unmanageable and hard to understand. Some advice, not meant exclusively for you, but for anyone who writes to get published:

Keep sentences short. The best sentence structure remains the simplest: Subject verb object. A sentence should only contain one idea or one piece of information. Read a sentence aloud — if you run out of air before you complete the sentence, it’s too long.

Q&A is almost always the wrong choice for a story. It’s favored because it’s easy, not because it’s good. A real story — one that won’t have readers dozing in their cereal — is crafted. It has a start, a middle, and an end. Q&As rarely offer that, instead tending to consist of a peppering of unrelated facts. I understand it is nearly impossible to make a real story out of a 15-minute phone interview, but that’s the challenge, and it is a challenge worth taking.

Stories benefit from a storytelling sensibility. Include salient physical descriptions of character and scene.

There’s no need to ever use the words “I” or “me” in a story unless you yourself somehow paticipated in the story in some meaningful way. The moment those words appear in a story, the author becomes a character, and must be addressed as such.

I know this advice is unasked for, but, as far as I am concerned, these are the absoulte essentials of competent writing, or a few of them, anyway. And, if you are writing for an audience, even part time, even without pay, you should nonetheless strive for basic competence. Your readers and subject deserve no less.

The ampersands sin the above paragraph should, instead, be ellipses.

Good advice, hipmn. I’m not as strict about the subject/verb/object structure. There’s a time and place for more complicated sentences, but YES, they need to be user friendly. And “amen” to your other points.

The irony of it is that they clearly love the work they do — you can see it in the shooting (photography). They have this gorgeous mix of documentary shooting (although a few less beautiful people would be nice) and studio glamour shooting (which is exceptionally well done).

The poor writing, paired with the “we’re not journalists, we’re not in it for the money, we’re not looking for accolades” vibe from above just makes the whole thing seem like some clicque’s pet project.

It’s a MySpace in print. Minus the pictures of some single girl’s cat, of course.

hipmn: I agree with most of your advice, even though some is a bit over-the-top in terms of captious rhetoric. We’re not trying to float above our readership, much like the audience of your blog most likely doesn’t consist mainly of college students. Also, sometimes an interview is an interview for an interview’s sake. It’s an easy format for a person on-the-go to consume?

zenrhino: Forgive me, but I’m pretty sure this board where you apparently spend a significant amount of your time, started as Rex’s pet project? And something tells me he isn’t in it for the money, accolades or journalistic integrity. And who doesn’t love MySpace?? You could put your pictures of black and white fire hydrants and phone booths up for all to see!

hipmn, pulling out a bunch of crap we could have learned in our freshman year of J-school isn’t exactly constructive. While these people might not have read the textbooks and sat in class to learn the theory of how to produce a magazine, they’re doing a magazine, which I think is a pretty big leap and something to be admired. don’t read it if you don’t like it.

Every chooses their own way to help.. or not. Let’s not get contentious.

Cristina… yeah, yeah. I guess I’m feeling a little contentious. But, someone telling another person that a sentence of questionable worth made their “eyes bleed” kind of irks me.

Agreed, gerg. Anyhow, I’ve offered to help the mag with copyediting, so hopefully you’ll all have a little less to bitch about over the next issues.

Anyhow, I’ve offered to help the mag with copyediting, so hopefully you’ll all have a little less to bitch about over the next issues.

groovy. that’s awesome.

thanks to your suggestion…

EleViate, you’re absolutely correct.

I want to sincerely thank you for reminding me that every great endeavor starts as someone’s pet project.

Also, thank you for reminding me that not everyone in a labor of love is in it for an ulterior motive.

It’s too easy to be a hater, and I took the low road (far too easy to do, it seems) when I clearly should have done what cristina did, and offer my help.

You totally made my day. Thank you!

yay!

now that’s what i call a happy ending to a thread!

cristina: i hope you’ll remember me when you and the rest of the industry crew make it big and are throwing oscar after parties…

Do you really think that sentence was “questionable”? Perhaps “made my eyes bleed” was too strong, but the story’s lead was incomprehensible.

You know, if people can’t stand criticism and editing — and I’m guessing EleViate can, as he has yet to complain — they should probably not pursue writing. Sharply worded or not, what I offered was constuctive criticism, and I’m not sure why you felt it was uneeded, gerg.

I never went to J-school, by the way. My comments are the result of writing and editing for newpapers, magazines, and newsweeklies for over a decade.

dammit, hipmn! don’t rob me of my happy ending!

cristina offering them copyediting help is constructive, in my opinion. you pulling out the hyperbole to criticize something which is a) a matter of taste and b) too late to change is… i don’t know.

btw – you’re missing an ‘n’ in your “unneeded.”

i’m getting so sick of the internet…

I got a happy ending for you. Knishes!

Mmm…knishalicous.

Where can you get a good knish in the Cities? Fishman Kosher on Lake St. I’d assume?

Cecil’s

The first time I ever had a knish, oddly enough, was at Yankee Stadium.

The Metrodome needs to get going on that.

I intend to bring up the subject of knishes in every single thread.

Looking at the website, a couple of things are readily apparent:

First, it’s difficult to read any of the articles on my iBook without a struggle, owing to the extremely small, narrow font. It’s bad enough that I probably wouldn’t even have bothered if I hadn’t already been prompted by this thread, unless I was really, really drawn in by a particular item. Part of it might come down the resolution on this little 12″ laptop, but I have to assume people with other sorts of displays are going to have difficulty as well. Could it be tweaked? It’s seriously next to impossible. Or maybe it’s just because yesterday was Valentine’s Day, and my weary eyes haven’t seen any sleep for over 36 hours. But I think not…

Second, what’s up with all the lithe babes decorating the site, like so many “props”? It’s so not-2006, because there isn’t even a layer of irony there. Maybe there’s something I’m missing, but I thought the last, non-mainstream holdouts on the “all babes (sic), all the time” thing to sell general-interest content were a handful of seemingly clueless music and skateboarder mags. I have to assume Industry isn’t all about that.

I always think of the anecdote from decades ago about the M/F couple who spend a rousing afternoon in the streets protesting the Man, racism, the war, or whatever else – then they arrive home, and guess who gets to make dinner?

OK, that might sound like a cheap shot (and a cliche, albeit rooted in truth), but seriously, what gives? Isn’t it a woman who started Industry mag-? Like I said, maybe there’s an angle I’m missing. Is this a showcase for local designers, maybe? (But then, only women’s threads splashed over the main pages of a non-gender-specific publication?)

Of course, there’s nothing at all wrong with a good photo. The context just seems funny. Maybe someone can ’splain it to me.

It just reminded me too much, at first glance, of walking into the record store awhile back and seeing some UK DJ mag plastered with photos of nameless, bikini-clad women arrayed around the new lineup of turntables.

Maybe I need some sleep.

I’m the original altruist! Ha ha ha. (Well, I might’ve been promoting myself a bit too.) See, when I first found issues one and two, way back, I pored over them and found great potential with no polish. When I was done organizing how I’d help remedy this young magazine’s woes, I had some weapons: my heavily marked-up copies of Industry, along with a printed stack of papers (40 pages, maybe?) containing all corrections (including spelling, grammar, punctuation, usage, consistency, and simplicity…and as much fact-checking as I could confidently own). I sent this the Industry staff. They liked my attitude. They liked my knowledge. If you look at issues 3-7, you’ll see that I’m listed as either “Proofreader” or “Copy Editor.” And you’ll probably notice that you just recently realized how bad the editing is. The editing is only noticed when it isn’t there. I’m no longer in Minneapolis; I’m in Glasgow studying for my master’s degree (in fine art, no less–whuuuuuut?). I wanted to continue working with Industry, but, well, I seem to be excommunicated. I e-mailed Tricia 4 times last fall with no response. Cristina, I’m not saying don’t work for them. There are bouts of unprofessionalism, however, that border on incompetence sometimes. You can all now hunt down the mistakes that I made in “my” issues, but know this: Although I was supposed to be the last one to make changes, many last-second keystrokes were not seen by my eyes until publication–and yes, many were errant. I’m not trying to absolve myself from any error you might note, since I’m sure a few are purely me. However, this brings me to another point, Cristina: Get ready for some all-nighters. The Industry crew tends to flop the pages in front of you RIGHT before deadline and then coyly ask for them two days later. For me, and for the amount of work required, this doesn’t suffice. Boo. And Tricia, this isn’t my idea of revenge. Rather, it’s my way of being honest to those who wade near Industry’s wake. I’m actually involved with two Glasgow publications currently, contributing both editing and illustration talents. It was a good ride, Industry. Good luck.

Andy (Mc)Ritchie

Holla.

Is this conversation over?

I have been writing for Industry (the “World of B” column) since its onset. I’d love to hear y’all’s thoughts on my writing. Hearing criticism will only help me improve. Go on, be honest. I swear I can take it.

zenrhino: As one on the fashion photographers who has contributed for every issue since the very first issue, thank you. I work my a** off for each spread to create the best photography I can. Yes, it is a labor of love. I am never paid, and I would like to mention that everyone involved in the shoots, models, stylists, makeup/hair, assistants, are also not paid. We do it because we love it, and Industry has consistently supported every crazy idea I have had. I strive to produce excellent work that everyone involved can be proud of. Hopefully it is work that inspires and thrills the readers of the magazine.

(please forgive the mistakes I probably made in my grammar. I know I’m no writer. Wait, is that last sentence wrong? Augh! I’m not quitting my day job.)

Back to the web site, which I believe this thread was originally about: I love that you can put comments after almost everything on the site! How fun! I have a small(12″) ibook as well, but with the contrast turned up all the way I can read it just fine. I can see how the small type would be hard on a viewer. I’ll make the suggestion for larger type.

The page loaded fairly quickly on my dial up connection, which I appreciate.

I just proofread what I wrote. “I sent this the Industry staff” should read as follows: I sent this to the Industry staff. Duh. Later…

CEI3-7, trust me — ALL writers do that last minute thing. =)

Thanks for the heads up. Been there before… maybe not “there” specifically, but I know the general score. Again, thanks.

As the person who sold the first ads for this Magazine and Introduced the owners to one another I have a different prospective..

(FYI. My grammar is not the best, but my math and selling skills are well above average.)

This Magazine is intended to be fun and to give exposure to upcoming talented individuals that want a new outlet to express themselves.
Industry is also a growing publication. The magazine continuely progresses every issue. As a new business would be expected to improve every quarter. We have never claimed to be flawless but have less flaws issue to issue. We know we are not perfect and we are not expecting to be at this point. (As we are still growing and learning everyday.)
Either way Industry will take this thread and make the improvements in the areas they feel they need to.

Andy,
When you were around we were going through Alot of changes and were still growing. Alot of us including Tricia had Alot on out plates. With new dedicated people working with us now the work load is more balanced. I dont think Tricia or the magazine is incompotent or unreliable by any means. I am no longer with Industry because I have Alot going in with my own business. http://www.v2nightlife.com However working with them up to this point has been a blessing. I look forward to working with them in the future and supporting Industry for quite a while.
Good luck on your future ventures and Thank You for your help while you were around.

Regardless Industry is doing its thing and continually has over 40,000 people per issue reading it. With a 100% pick up rate. Which to me speaks for itself as that is not common.

So quit hating and try looking at it again with open eyes..

Beecher
beecher@v2nightlife.com

Earlier, I had decided not to post anything on this thread, and instead simply read and take in the criticism. I am grateful for the discussion. From all of this criticism, a few good things have happened:

1. Cristina has offered to help with copyediting. Which we have taken her up on.
2. We’re in the process of fixing the website so it appears clearly and readable on any computer screen.
3. We are investigating why the rotating pictures include only women from our fashion spreads, and are missing the rest of the photography we originally intended to have in those spaces.

I do feel the need to speak on here now, because I feel that Andy has stepped a bit out of line in calling us “unprofessional and incompetent.”

What we go through every two months to put out this magazine is more difficult then anything I have ever tried to do in my life. All nighters? I can’t even being to tell you about the endless nights Aime, the art director, and I have stayed up to get this magazine to print. But we do it because we love it. And as you can see from some of the magazine contributors who have posted on here, they do too. We are constantly changing and learning, and mistakes we have made in the past are being worked on. If we’ve accomplished anything with this magazine, it is the ability to learn and improve. In communicating with Cristina, I laid out our timeline, so that she is aware of the amount of time we have. I have tried to be sensitive to her schedule and make sure that no matter what, her helping us does in no way inconvenience her. I think her past experience makes her fully aware of time crunches when going to print. I think it was a low blow to rule out the chance that we may be trying to do things differently since you moved, Andy.

I apologize for the imperfections in the magazine, and any stress I may have caused anyone who has dared “wade near the wake of Industry.” I don’t remember ever being unkind or ungrateful to you, Andy. I appreciated everything you did for us. I didn’t keep you involved with the magazine when you moved because I did not want to burden you, working on your masters. Given our issues with time and doing things last minute, (often not by choice), it probably wouldn’t have worked with you across and ocean and time zones away. From your post, it seems like you are better off without us.

The bottom line is this; everyone who works on this magazine has a life and a job outside of the magazine. Articles and photo spreads are often not turned in on time, as people are busy. It’s hard to demand much more when you don’t pay them. My art director works around about five other freelance jobs and a part time job. We don’t have an office, and the entire magazine is produced on my designer’s tiny Mac laptop. We’re doing the best we can. I hope that’s better then not doing it at all. We don’t claim to be anything we’re not. Cut us some slack. We’re trying. I appreciate the support we have gotten from many of you, and I appreciate the criticism, it’s helped motivate us to improve further. Is what we are doing so wrong? Does every new publication ooze with professionalism and endless resources from day one? I know I have heard somewhere that every great accomplishment is a series of mistakes. Or something like that.

Hopefully someday we’ll be able to please everyone. And possibly make some money. That would be nice.

Tricia Heuring
Editor-In-Chief
Industry Minne-Zine

not sure why my punctuation is not showing up. how ironic.

My guess is that you originally wrote your note in word and then cut and pasted it into MNspeak, and the original had so-called “smart” quotes, or curly quotes, which the HTML of this page was not able to process.

If you’re even thinking of doing a seminar with your writers, which I used to regualrly do with my writing staff, who were similarly inexperienced, I would be happy to help. I can be emailed at hipminnesota@gmail.com.

I simply want to second what Tricia said about her conversation with me. She was very direct about her timeline, very accomodating, and very grateful. As I have not yet followed through with the work, I cannot vouch for future interactions, but thus far everything has been quite agreeable.

I also want to add, having been in the similar position of starting a new publication, it is HELLISH — so PLEASE, let’s cut a little bit of slack here. Nobody is claiming perfection, but there are certainly people out there who are TRYING to achieve it, or at least something close.

I’m getting pretty tired, in general, of hearing everyone bitch and moan all the time. It’s so easy — and such a cop out. Try something constructive! Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for constructive criticism — but please consider the efforts as well. After all, what has been taken from you? How have you been betrayed? Is it wrong for someone to want to offer something different — even if it’s not yet the best that it can be? How much did you pay for the last issue, that you have the gall to be so offended. Should we begin to tear apart mnspeak — or all the blogs out there — because every aspect doesn’t meet our lofty demands? Let’s put things in perspective people!

Thanks for commenting, Tricia. I fixed up the punctuation (silly smart quotes that Microsoft Word puts in).

I think that would be a really good idea. I’d like to arrange something like that soon. I’ll be in touch.

Thank you

The best thing about this thread is that now all of us know about Industry. And I will certainly be looking to pick it up in the future. Good luck guys!

I like the service profiles on the website but the aesthetic turns me off for some reason.

I think that maybe the hyper-slickness of the images (mostly the photographs) is tonally at odds with the writing. Perhaps that is why the writing caused such a commotion in the earlier comments on this site. For me, the writing wouldn’t be an issue if the images had some quirkiness or were a little “de-slicked.” Alternatively, if the writing were as polished and suave as the photographs it would also be less jarring. As it stands, the photography feels so glossy relative to the text that it feels like either one or the other is somehow disingenuous in its intents and message.

I guess ultimately my comment is that I would like to see Industry work on creating a vision that is cohesive in voice, image, and ideology.

I wish everyone at this publication much luck and look forward to seeing future developments.

All right. It’s time to clear my mind and then be done with it. Last time I wrote to honestly inform the people who planned to contribute to Industry. Now I write to inform Industry itself. We can have a semantic battle over what exactly are “bouts of unprofessionalism…that borders on incompetency sometimes,” but this definition is irrelevant, as it’s my opinion. (Note my quote, which does not say “unprofessional and incompetent,” which is the context of Tricia’s citing. That kind of word-twisting is Neocon territory, and you’d be better off not engaging in it.) Right, so I was speaking as an honest critic, someone who is not prone to knee-jerk defenses of Industry based on emotional alliances and friendships. Yes, you all work with love, but love does not necessitate a smart approach or an efficient operation. (Your frequent all-nighters are a testament perhaps.) When you use love as a defense, it’s practically an admission of unprofessionalism. Not that I need to qualify my opinion, but for the sake of clarity I’ll drop a few examples of what I consider “unprofessional.”

*You did not see the worth of a copy editor after having one on staff for five issues. It took a message board full of dissenters for you to notice your error in judgment. Basically, you were taken back, in the span of one issue, to the level of polish in Issue 2. To me that sounds like regression, not learning, and to me it’s unprofessional.

*You failed to respond to my e-mails from Glasgow, all of them (four) asking for your attention. You passed this off in your above response as simply your own sage decision to unbind me, so to speak. Uh, no. Either you can’t work your e-mail program, which would fall under the category of “incompetent,” or you consciously chose to ignore and bury my inquiries–this is “unprofessional.” I guess I’ve got you wedged here.

This, for the people still reading, is criticism. It’s not a discussion. It’s my experience. I suggest, Tricia, that you not rebut. Last time you rebutted, without any reason to (other than that knee-jerk I spoke about) and you now have no legs to support you. I wasn’t trying to break you down, just inform, as I said. With that, I’m leaving this board.

Hell hath no fury like a copy editor scorned.

These threads are why MNSpeak can be the bomb. For my three cents, Industry is one of the better reads around town. The topics are always clever and relevant, and it’s great to have profiles on the people around town who are up to cool things.

I hear what NYer is saying about coherence, but I also appreciate the different areas that Industry tackles. Also, copyediting is always good.