Secrets of the City

MN probably has “more political blogs per capita than anywhere else in America” because of the paucity of reliable MSM. (If “reliable MSM” isn’t an oxymoron?)

Heh…oh…Good God…now…Absolutely Nothing…Say it again!

A few blog stories make it into the real news, but beyond that nothing. I’m convinced that many of them are simply arms-length operations of parties and groups that want to be seen as above blog-like attacks, tactics, etc.

I trust them slightly less that the New York Times, which is to say not at all.

srhcb: Well, that sounds like a blogger thing to say. In addition to more political bloggers per capita, we also seem to have a much higher ratio of media outlets per capita. I suppose you could say these aren’t “reliable,” but I’d have a tough time understanding or believing why exactly they’re any less reliable than, say, the Chicago Tribune or the Austin American-Statesman or whatever other MSM you wanna name.

I’m pretty sure the reason for the political blog concentration has nothing to do with the media — it’s because we’re inherently more political. Minnesota, of course, has the highest voter turnout rate in the nation.

Wow. This discussion could get pretty crazy.

Following Rex’s point, Minnesota’s political blogging directly correlates to the state’s highly active political landscape. There are several independent lefty blogs out there, as well as hardline party-line blogs. But then there’s also the Northern Alliance (of which Powerline is a part), a major national righty group much in the same way that the local Center for the American Experiment is major national conservative organization.

Local blogs hold a tremendous amount of potential, but most of it is squandered. Even though MN has several blogs, most of them are dedicated to national issues like complaining about/ defending the President. Blah, blah, blah. Last week the STrib ran Sviggum’s inflamatory editorial on immigration. Combined with T-Paw’s recent discussion of the issue, it’s clear that we’re seeing the development of a new talking point of the MN GOP. (And that’s fine, we need to talk about immigration.) But so far nothing substantial from the lefty blogs in response.

Some blogs such as Publius, have publicized some local events and directly influenced particular political areas. So there’s some hope.

i don’t know what they are good for. but i do know what they aren’t good for: any real discourse, idea exchange or debate about public policy.

I should clarify my ealier comment.

Blogs like MDE or what ever it’s left-wing compliment might be should receive little respect. They are mostly shills.

But there are bloggers and blogs out there that do real reporting, often better than the media. Witness their reporting on the NYT “domestic spying” story. They’ve done in a few days what the Times couldn’t do in more than one year.

In that respect, I echo Michelle Malkin’s desire for a “blogger’s row” in the new White House press room.

Taylor, if you have a blog I’d like to hear your breakdown of where Sviggum’s editorial turns inflamatory. (Here is not the place). Thanks.

Well, regardless of what else they’re good for, I think it’s safe to say they’re extremely apt at prompting worthless newspaper columns.

But it seems to me that the question people are trying to answer here isn’t how much impact they have on voters, but how much impact they have on the MSM. I don’t particularly care about that, because then the question turns into how much effect the MSM has on voters.

But as for the question that matters: How much impact blogs have on voters depends on how many people read the blog and what those people–who are usually more activist than non-blog readers–do after reading it. Other than that demographic shift, I see no reason why you wouldn’t approach the questions of how much impact blogs have and how much impact regular media has in the same way.

Echo chamber indeed.

Political blogs are good for generating 4 things:

Rumor
Gossip
Divisiveness
Hatred

Ok, I’ll add a fifth.. envy. Envy among real journalists and opinion makers that they don’t have the freedom to print half of the ideological rants/slants they want to because it’s completely slanderous and unfounded and their editors will fire them. This is compared to politco bloggers that join blog networks from which they will get kicked out if they aren’t incendiary enough to generate pageviews.

Political blogs are the ultimate tool for the dumbing down of news and opinion yet invented. Most political blogs are like the reader’s digest condensed version of US Today for god’s sakes. Blogs gave independent writers the potential to provide as much analysis and breadth of thought to the widest audience in human history. For once the ink is relatively free. But what do you get? Name-calling and 2 sentence paragraphs spouting rhetoric. Even colonial pamphleteers did better than half the shit that makes its way onto blogs and they had to worry about someone finding out who they were and shooting them in duels. The only thing blogs do differently is the rapidity by which they generate “buzz” among existing adherents.

Mainstream media empires really missed their opportunity. All they had to do was give some moveable type tools and server space in the oped sections of their web sites to these egomaniacs and all that ad revenue would have gone to them at little or no cost to offset their loss of classified ads to internet sources. But the idiots who run publishing companies don’t listen very well to outsiders. (If I was blogging I would name names here in the spirit of kiddie rants and blog ego).

You people have got to be kidding yourselves, a “blogger’s row” at the white house? Political bloggers troll each other’s garbage and dredge the rumor mill. There is a print corollary you know. When the National Enqurier was the go-to source for information regarding the OJ trial. Real great chapter in our national history there. And even though they were spot on finding info about OJ and criticizing existing media I don’t today read the tabloids to find out whether or not there are aliens living in Minnetonka.

Sure, eventually if you dig in enough landfills you’re going to find Jimmy Hoffa. Doesn’t mean your method of fighting crime is either efficient or worthy of praise. The only thing bloggers had going for them was their freedom from manipulation by power. Now half the blogs are authored by political action committees and paid writers. Michelle Malkin really wants to make it even worse by trading in any semblance of independence for access? Who gets to pick the bloggers in blogger’s row? Dumbest idea ever.

Every blogger I know when they have been faced by even the slightest of legal pressures has rolled over. Telling real truth to actual power takes alot more conviction and, more importantly, resources that bloggers will never have. The worst thing that could happen to democracy in the US is for the internet/blogs to kill off real media outlets. If I was an incumbent I would be encouraging blogs everyday. The conglomeration of mainstream media is a definite source of concern that renders them less trustworthy. But mainstream media needs competition from other mainstream media not from unemployed Ole Svenson blogging in his bathrobe.

Just look at what we’ve had here so far in this thread.

Completely baseless nonsense about Minnesota having the highest per capita rate of political bloggers stated and accepted as a fact. Anything other than anecdotal belief to back up this statement? Nah, it’s not needed. This is a blog after all. I’ll offer some anecdotes of my own I guess. Go to any midsize Eastern seabord city with an “uptempo” media scene and you will find competitive rates of news/political bloggers because they have the advantage of the timezone. Go to the rural West and you will find that the per capita rate of bloggers, forum contributors and email forwarders dominate the political dialogue to a much greater extent than bloggers do here. Just because we have a few of loudest egomanical “writers” publishing on the web doesn’t mean much to this Minnesotan web consumer.

Neither are Minnesotans inherently more politically active. That’s just a bunch of arrogant bs spouted typically by people who live here (the cold keeps the bad people out, ya betcha). The reason for traditionally high voter turnout even in the absence of hot-button referenda issues in Minnesota, just as in Wisconsin, Maine, and New Hampshire is quite simply that these states turn away fewer people who show up at the polls who didn’t think to register in advance because they allow election day registration. A sound public policy that should be universally accepted and as soon as it is the voter turnout in other “less politically active” states will rise by similar levels.

In 2004:

” 73.8% of all eligible voters in EDR states voted, compared with 60.2% of eligible voters in states without EDR — a difference of 13.6 percentage points.

” Turnout in four of the six states with EDR topped the nation. Minnesota (78.0%), Wisconsin (74.9%), Maine (72.6%), and New Hampshire (70.5%). Oregon, which employs a vote-by-mail system, had a turnout of 70.9%, making it the only non-EDR state to place in the top five.

Of course all those uninformed voters not being turned away doesn’t come without a price.

Non-disenfranchisement != politically activity. You know what is a truer measure of political activity? Money. Free donations of income to political campaigns. Guess where Minnesota ranks on non-corporate per capita political contributions by registered voters? Yeah, kind of middle of the road and the only reason we do even that well is because of the homogeneity of our population lacking in minorities. Compare the Twin Cities to say Seattle-Bellvue. In 2004 Mpls-St. Pault residents gave $0.87 to Bush and $0.98 to all other candidates per capita compared to $0.95 to Bush and $1.56 to all other candidates in Seattle metro. Don’t even bother to compare it to real politically active metro areas like San Francisco.

The reason blogs are becoming more effective as a tool for political persuasion is because the audience in the US is becoming a lot less intellecutally sophisticated and are susceptible to the more basic rhetorical tropes. But that’s a different topic and I’ve already wasted too much time today!

Taylor is right. The greatest potential for political writing in the blogosphere lies in blogs dedicated to local issues. But these blogs usually with a few bright exceptions are dedicated to a single issue of concern to their author and burn out after just a couple of months. They also are not updated on a regular schedule so people who don’t understand syndication lose sight of them quickly.

If we could train people how to blog properly and define better tools with which to join the folksonomy rather than pollute it then these valuable and interesting flare-up blogs would be alot easier to find and be a more effective counter-measure to the powerlines of the blogosphere.

Good points, BJ. People have been asking forever how much things like op-ed endorsements “matter” — and the general consensus is not much. But if those don’t matter, and bloggers don’t matter, and tv ads don’t matter — what does? (Or rather, beyond the candidate, what does?)

i think everything in the media “matters”. hell, video games “matter” because they influence peoples’ realities as does everything that people hear, read, or see in the media.

i think blogs matter because they allow people to blow off steam and feel like they’re “getting involved” in politics (granted, it’s not as “invovled” as going to your city council person’s office to tell them how you feel). on occasion, two people from different ends of the political spectrum get a chance to square off and practice defending what they believe in.

Westover, as is his wont, fails to detect the rich irony of using a newspaper interview — the same newspaper that publishes his column, no less — to declare the MSM lazy and obsolete.

Craig Westover, who blogs at craig westover.blogspot.com and contributes to the Pioneer Press opinion pages, says he and his fellow bloggers are outworking the traditional media outlets on this big story, devoting more time and attention.

“They’re going to eat the newspapers’ lunch,”

If this happens, Craig, who is going to PAY for your lunch?

On the Wisconsin side of the St. Croix River, blogs are a major part in the politcal debate and information distribution contacts for local school board and politcal business. Much debate has taken place in the Hudson and New Richmond weekly papers. Local blogs can get the info out quicker than the once-a-weeklies.

THe New Richmond News has a feature story in the 12/22/05 issue. Three competing blogs included: http://www.abovetheborderline.blogspot, newrichmond.blogspot.com and ontheborderline.net.

The blogspot.com blogs were started in response to the anonymous names used on the borderline.net blog and the slandering and cheapshots taken at public officials and private citizens who take issue with the stance of that blog.

It’s quite an interesting and entertaining war taking place.

If the 2004 election proved anything, it’s that blogs can have a subtle yet important impact on larger stories. Two of the bigger examples are the Swift Boat Vets for Truth and “Rathergate” controversies which were largely generated and kept alive through right-wing blogs. Maybe this goes to show that blogs are often little more than campaign tools, but I don’t think anyone can seriously deny their effectiveness.

I’d like to think, if nothing else, following a couple of political blogs (preferably on both sides of the aisle) would help you to be more informed as a voter based on their aggregating of sometimes obscure stories, even if you find no value in the editorial content. As for exchanging ideas, it isn’t going to happen unless you chose to engage in it. I’ve had my share of name-calling dustups, but I’ve also had truly fascinating conversations with other bloggers and blog commenters on a number of topics and have sometimes changed my point of view because of them.

For myself, I write about politics because I’m interested in politics. I assume that people who read my posts do so for the same reason. Is that better or worse than writing about the dreams I had last night or the last bar I got drunk in? I guess that’s up to the reader.

Blogging simply keeps me sane in a time when it appears we have a little too much nuttiness. That is what mine is good for.

Some like what I have to say. Others think I’m off my rocker or a commie-socialistic-pinko scumbag. Either way, I have a small (as in gnat-in-an-elephant’s-ear small) impact on the public discourse in Minnesota. That is far better than remaining quiet and having no impact at all.

I also like Rew’s points that suggest blogging is as much a personal endeavor as a political one, and that the act of blogging itself is a way to collect, organize, and store one’s thoughts.

Oh, and I also wholeheartedly agree with rex on Rew’s “personal endeavor” point.

I agree with smartie word for word. I’d also like to add that Time magazine named Powerline Blog “blog of the year” for the rathergate story. How much effect can local political bloggers have on voters? I would say a lot if the story is collected and organized well.

Also I think blogs from the right probably have a bigger impact on voters since the Strib is a lefty paper. At least I think its left?

Rex – I’m proud to live in a state with such a good voter turnout. thanks for pointing that out.

I’ll add to that sentiment. And that’s another big difference between what we and, for example, the guy (?) who wrote that PiPress article do. If I didn’t start being somewhat active in the blogosphere I wouldn’t know much at all about politics and probably wouldn’t be motivated to do much of anything about it. We don’t just (hopefully) motivate our readers to do more, we motivate ourselves to do more. Newspaper journalist X writes his story, goes home, and more than likely doesn’t give much of a shit about what happens next. We write our story and then try to make the ending we want happen.

“Train people how to blog properly?”

Well, there’s a recipe for taking the whole fun out of it if I ever saw one.

We might as well herd cats, while we are at it.

Well by train to blog properly all I mean is to tag their posts better. I don’t think most bloggers even know how to ping their posts with these engines. Could be wrong I guess. Kind of a generalization.

Technorati, pubsub, icerocket and the rest would be more effective at blog search if there were a more reliable taxonomy to index.

How much effect can local political bloggers have on voters? what are they good for?

During the most recent city council elections I think more than one 10th ward candidate used a blog for their campain. This was a helpful tool for me come election time. Helped me make up my mind.

not2sure. wish you would register. wish i could write to you.

my personal feeling is that the political blogs serve an important purpose in terms of information gathering. there are several fast-growing areas in the metro that don’t get much more than the weekly wipe variety of news coverage; the blogs are where it’s at for current infomration. even when you’re active at the grassroots level, it’s not enough sometimes. i’m on a city commission and a county advisory commission here in scott county. never get my straightup political stuff from the msm. never. if you’re involved, you know what’s true and what’s rumor. doesn’t take long to substantiate if you know people. the stories still break faster online than they do on tv or in the dailies.

Not2sure – do you draw a distinction between a blog like Anti-Strib, which is entirely opinion driven, and the blogs run by actual freelance writers and reporters who publish real work on their blogs?

I think we almost have to.

There is a little more lefty to righty balance in the online addition, and some more about why the bloggers write political blogs, if anyone isn’t completely bored yet.

Good link. Much better context. Thanks.

Here’s an irony: I’m repeatedly on the record questioning the value of political blogging, yet City Pages just released their ‘Artists of the Year’ issue and I chose to write about political blogger Arianna Huffington.

It’s not really a contradiction though, because there is of course a kind of “political” blogging that I think we can all agree is “good” — whether that’s Rathergate or denouncing Trent Lott, it’s about actual reportage — you know, the search for truth rather than the search for even more opinions.

Here are a few perspectives for you.
Blogs are good for that, you know – new perspectives.

Why the Mainstream Media is Fucked

Related video #1: Blogs and the Media covers a lot of ground, including an interview with Power Line (pre-Rathergate).

Related video #2: Joe Trippi talks about the impact of blogs

I agree that going local is a big opportunity for political blogs. It’s a way to share information (both for activists and concerned citizens), it’s a way to amplify issues that may otherwise go unnoticed, it’s a way to document and argue and vent. And on and on.

Obviously the way we form opinions and vote is very complex and diverse, and therefore difficult to measure.

Does talking to your friends matter? Does reading the news matter? Do religion and hair color matter? Do blogs matter?

Yes.

13 things about local blogs and local bands…

1. no talent needed to start one
2. only your friends pay attention at the start
3. everything being done here, you can find somewhere else
4. looks and attitude often matter more than quality
5. there are those who only want to do whats cool, but everything cool is done exactly the opposite as those people
6. it’s nearly impossible to do it for a living
7. the worst often climb the highest the fastest
8. but, there are those who do it right and still succeed
9. the best always leave (though usually not to redmond, wa)
10. most dont last more than a year
11. they operate as a scene, that’s not hard to figure out
12. merit is determined by the consumer, but thats not why we play, or write, so who cares?
13. theyre always better drunk

Awesome.

More local righty blogs in article because there are more rightie bloggers and they’re better organized (MOB). At last count, over 60 different individuals.

Fewer lefty blogs with far fewer individual bloggers, many of whom have posting privileges on each others’ blogs. About 20 people. Some of their time is spent carping about DFL front runner candidates and rural incumbents not being ideologically pure enough in regards to a six pack of litmus test issues (ID, guns, choice, gay rights, etc).

They would like to take credit for the recent legislative wins by the DFL, but the wins in the special elections are more the result of a vastly improved ground game on the DFL’s part.

The GOP has more than its share of young Karl Rove wannabes who are trying out the tactics they learned during their precious tenure at the CRNC in DC. The Rovian attacks on Tarryl Clark’s strengths as a advocate and lobbyist worked like a charm, you betcha.

These guys hope that the righty blogosphere can reproduce the results achieved by blogs in South Dakota’s U.s. Senate race. Pressuring traditional news outlets in line. Not beeping likely with the novelty element gone.

“Some of their time is spent carping about DFL front runner candidates and rural incumbents not being ideologically pure enough in regards to a six pack of litmus test issues (ID, guns, choice, gay rights, etc). “

Yeesh – cause god knows righty bloggers never spend time carping on the impurities of their own cadidates (cigarette fee, anyone?).

i prefer to look at this from in between. for me it isn’t about who has more out there or whose scored biggest in bringing down someone else, though that may be the impetus for starting a blog. i am interested in something other than the soundbyte journalism of the msm. blogs do go beyond that, and thank god. the layered discussions reveal far more than who’s ahead or what made whom vote how.

These guys hope that the righty blogosphere can reproduce the results achieved by blogs in South Dakota’s U.s. Senate race. Pressuring traditional news outlets in line. Not beeping likely with the novelty element gone.

Weren’t those SD blogs actually astroturf?

Weren’t those SD blogs actually astroturf?

and paid for by the campaigns, at that.

Oh, where to start:

Kevin: “do you draw a distinction between a blog like Anti-Strib, which is entirely opinion driven, and the blogs run by actual freelance writers and reporters who publish real work on their blogs?”

You draw any distinction you want. Any blogger at any time can swerve from opinion to serious reporting to catblogging and back again. John Hinderaker notched Dan Rather and also liveblogged the Miss Universe contest.

My blog is largely but not exclusively political; I started it with no expectation of ever being found, much less having an impact. Navel-gazing analysis of the medium is lost on me, frankly; it is what it is, to whomever it is it.

Weren’t those SD blogs actually astroturf?

No, they weren’t. They did take money from the campaigns – unwisely, as both bloggers later admitted. That doesn’t make them any more “astroturf” than, say, Atrios or Ollie Willis (both wholly-owned by George Soros). Judge their credibility accordingly, of course. I do.

Finally, Wayne Tedrow Jr. made some good observations – and then this:
The GOP has more than its share of young Karl Rove wannabes who are trying out the tactics they learned during their precious tenure at the CRNC in DC.

Y’know, for all the influence Rove supposedly has on all of us, I wish the damn check would arrive already.

Oh, yeah:

13 things about local blogs and local bands…

Bitter much?

No, me too. My band fecking rawked. And other than a gig in the mainroom opening for Thin White Rope, we went nowhere.

Fecking philistine fans.

“Wholly owned by George Soros”

My favorite part of local blogs are that you don’t need facts.

My experience is that blogs always threaten to be more talk than thought (and this includes my own largely non-political blog.) If influence is measured in thought-leadership, the editorial filters of the better newspaper op-ed sections and opinion journals seem to produce better political thinking. I don’t know if this is inherent in blogging.

But their nature, blogs seem to be less modulated; especially in the early days, there was that road-rage like sense of being both threatened and invulnerable. And my experience has also been, present company excluded, that political blogs are clannish. If you’re right-leaning you also tend to be right-linking.

Blogs seem to have power as a corrective and as a connective tissue among fellow-travelers.

There’s also this, which is interesting.

“My favorite part of local blogs are that you don’t need facts.”

Fact: You are immune to humor. It’s called “Hyperbole”.

However, it is a fact that both Ollie and Duncan Black are employed by Soros’ front company, Media Matters.

Or isn’t that the kind of “fact” that you recognize?

Minnesota has so many political blogs because there are so many liberal nut cases and then real folks can have political blogs just pointing out all the hypocritical, loony thing s that the liberals do.