Secrets of the City

Have the protesters made similar contigencies?

Well, it’s understandable McCain would show so much concern for New Orleans, after his robust response to the last tragedy, voting down almost every bill that would provide relief to the city, health care to evacuees, protection against future calamities, and investigations into what went wrong last time.

Heckuva job, McCainy.

I don’t think the RNC had a choice. They would have been rolling the dice on the possibility that someone would have a picture of McCain glad handing delegates or reading My Pet Goat while the Gulf Coast drowned again.

Chased off Bush + Chaney, which may be a bonus for McCain. Too bad for Saint Paul, which has worked hard to make this happen.

Wish he could have canceled the hangover I have from the media party last night.

Yeah the timing really sucks for the city. I hope we’ll get the chance to host another one sometime soon since it sounds like we could be missing out on a real full blown convention. We were in the running for both this year, maybe the Democrats will come here in 2012 or 2016.

The only — ONLY — reason for a change in the RNC game plan is because this is an election year. When Katrina hit in 2005, NOLA residents didn’t enjoy such “consideration.”

Sheesh. I sure hope someone calls the GOP on this blatant political maneuvering.

It’s been said that McCain might not even be here to accept his nomination, because he might need to go to LA. Uhhhh, to do what, exactly?

He’s got no business down there, other than having his photo taken while looking concerned and handing out red cross emergency kits. Based on his record of post-Katrina relief efforts, this just reeks of insincerity.

I kind of agree with you. I don’t know that I buy this business of candidates acting like they’re already president. See: Obama in Europe, McCain in the Gulf Coast. Just campaign without insulting my intelligence more than you already do.

The only — ONLY — reason for a change in the RNC game plan is because this is an election year. When Katrina hit in 2005, NOLA residents didn’t enjoy such “consideration.”

Bingo! How dare they not have altered their convention in 2005.

This is just stupid: Arnold Schwarzenegger (sp?) cancelled his RNC plans. Why? Is he going to go down and hold up the levies?

He cancelled because of something going on in California Legislature.

Ahhhnoldd is actually skipping his because of the California budget standoff/crisis/bankruptcy/whateveritis.

The timing does really suck and yes it’s blatant political maneuvering but it’s really the right thing to do. Good move offering the campaign plane to help evacuate people.

Oh. It didn’t mention that in the article I read. Sorry I blew up.

He’ll also carry one crippled child out on his back through two feet of water once they find the most photogenic crippled child in Nola.

I wonder how this could hurt or help St. Paul in the end. I can see that the local businesses may not have quite the influx of cash from delegates going out and shopping, getting drunk and buying souvenirs. But I can also see that the city has already received cash for security and convention related infrastructure that may not need to be spent. They should be able to save on police overtime for example.

Maybe in the end it will be a wash.

Obama could turn that hurricane.

He’ll make that “O” symbol with his hands.

OMG he totally could!

“He’ll make that “O” symbol with his hands.“

Kinda like that little “flip flop” gesture that looked so freakishly like a nazi salute.

Bingo! How dare they not have altered their convention in 2005.

I sure hope you’re being facetious, kwatt. If there wasn’t any electioneering being done, no one in the GOP would give s*** about NOLA … just like 2005. Wakatta?

Political grand-standing is all that this is. Not real, honest compasson.

This may be the first time we’ve had such a good candidate that his opponents having nothing better than “well, he can’t really work miracles, can he?”

You know, Kurtis, I’m not really his opponent.

But I walked by the DFL stand today at the fair. Usually walk in, buy some buttons or tchotchkies. Couldn’t do it this year.

I sure hope you’re being facetious, kwatt. If there wasn’t any electioneering being done, no one in the GOP would give s*** about NOLA … just like 2005. Wakatta?

Political grand-standing is all that this is. Not real, honest compasson.

Fine. But then every mention of it by Democrats in the three years since is political posturing as well.

There are only two parties, Rat: the resistance and the movement.

Fine. But then every mention of it by Democrats in the three years since is political posturing as well.

I don’t understand what you mean by this. If your party has done very little to support the city of New Orleans, or help the refugees and the citizens of NOLA, then when you express concern for the city, it’s political posturing.

Are you saying this describes both parties equally?

It’s just shooting dirty pool for them to point out how complete incompetence, corruption, dishonesty and stupidity have destroyed people’s lives, Max. Play nice.

It’s just shooting dirty pool for them to point out how complete incompetence, corruption, dishonesty and stupidity have destroyed people’s lives, Max. Play nice.

Oops. Shouldn’t have left that GOTO 10 command in there.

I don’t understand what you mean by this. If your party has done very little to support the city of New Orleans, or help the refugees and the citizens of NOLA, then when you express concern for the city, it’s political posturing.

Very little? You can’t honestly be saying that the billions and billions and billions of dollars sent that direction in the last three years constitutes ignoring New Orleans.

You can’t also honestly deny that the Democrat party hasn’t used everything about Hurricane Katrina for its own political purposes (glossing over the fact that the mayor of New Orleans and then governor of Louisiana were Democrats.) They’ll probably do it again, too, even though anyone left in that city on their own choosing this time has to be regarded as nothing less than a daft baffoon.

And let’s also be honest that if the convention had gone as planned and this hurricane hit Democrats would, again, scream to the high heavens that Republicans are somehow ignoring the entire Gulf Coast.

I agree with that. Damned if they do and damned if they don’t. Lock the barn door or not, either way, the chickens come home to roost.

Very little? You can’t honestly be saying that the billions and billions and billions of dollars sent that direction in the last three years constitutes ignoring New Orleans.

Click on my link above, Kevin. McCain has not been a friend to New Orleans. Underfunding is not the same thing as helping; too little is too little no matter how much is sent.

Yes. We would be screaming about McCain ignoring New Orleans. And we would be right about that too. He shot himself in the foot, and it’s lose/lose, whatever he does.

I haven’t seen Democrats make political hay out of New Orleans in the way that Republicans did with 9/11. We didn’t run Nagin as a presidential candidate, with speeches that consisted of noun, verb, Katrina. We didn’t insinuate that without a Democrat in the White House, there would be another Katrina.

And, yes, both the mayor and the governor of New Orleans were Democrats. I was there. The estimated number of deaths as the result of the bowl filling were between 40,000 and 80,000. Actual deaths? About 7,000. Why? Because Ray Nagin did everything he could to get people out of the city. There was a while immediately following Katrina when it seemed Nagin was the only person trying to help the refugees, and bring order into the city. I don’t know what your insinuation about NOLA having a democratic mayor was intended to mean, but I assure you, Nagin was every bit as much a hero post Katrina ad Giuliana was post 9/11, and the only reason he is badmouthed on this is because the disaster was such a monumental cock-up on the part of a Republican administration that is was expedient to suggest that Nagin somehow failed the city.

No. Kurts:

It’s Americas’s chickenssssssssssssss…….arecominhome………..to roost!.

Yeah, he did a heckuva job. All those helpless people that were left in the city were Bush’s responsibility.

Rat has replaced Maz as King Sniveler around these here parts.

Grow a pair, cowboy.

In Saint Paul it’s buckets of urine and in NYC in ‘04 it was buckets of blood – the blood of those who died in the Twin Towers and the Republicants publicly bathed in at their convention.

Times have changed…

I find it interesting that the Republicans are doing the right thing by suspending the party… and the protesters are crowing on the news that they’ll be the only thing going on tomorrow (with their march) and so people will be paying attention to them.

Yeah, he did a heckuva job. All those helpless people that were left in the city were Bush’s responsibility.

I’m confused again, Kevin. What do you think the job of the federal government is? Is protecting our cities from massive, unpredictable natural disasters that are well beyond the city’s ability to self-fund not among them? And if so, do you suggest we shut down FEMA and never give any federal aid to cities that have suffered this sort of calamities?

Because, if that’s not the case you’re making, then, yes, all those people in New Orleans were Bush’s fault. And the inability of FEMA to address their needs was Bush’s fault. And the fact that three years after Katrina, the levees are STILL not strong enough to withstand a Cat-3 hurricane is Bush’s fault. And the people living in trailers is Bush’s fault, and the fact that the trailers are carcinogenic is Bush’s fault.

That’s what happens when you’re the leader of the free world. You get the blame when things your administration is supposed to takj care of go wrong.

If I’m the the king, you’re the queen, Raindog.

They shouldn’t have been there in the first place. What kind of preparation and evacuation leaves its most vulnerable people behind by the thousands? A pretty shitty one. When that’s the case, everything goes to hell, as we obviously saw. And I don’t care what excuse anyone throws out there, there’s zero reason for anyone to be living in a trailer three years later. None. At some point, people have to stand up for themselves.

Well, that’s one issue. Perhaps they should move.

Now how about the fact that the levees aren’t shored up? How about the fact that McCain voted against many of the major plans to help the refugees and revitalize the cities? There’s a lot of points that the Republican party needs to account for, and this new hurricane is bringing them to the forefront. It won’t do just to complain that the fault must be with New Orleanians, who are obviously too lazy to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

By the way, the evacuation plan enacted for Katrina is widely considered a model of how to evacuate a city.

And my point in pointing out that Ray Nagin is a Democrat is to combat the chosen narrative that the Katrina debacle was a “Republican” disaster. It was a bipartisan disaster involving the local, state and federal government. This nonsense notion that Republicans are the only ones who have to account for anything or “redeem” themselves by handling Gustav (and what kind of name for a hurricane is that anyway?) better is ridiculous. Everybody has to redeem themselves by handling Gustav better, Ray Nagin included.

If the levees aren’t fixed today, that’s the federal government’s fault. There’s no excuse for it. If they weren’t good enough on August 2005, that’s the federal government’s fault, including that of every administration between the construction and the failure, not just George Bush. There have been other presidents.

As for John McCain, I don’t know why he voted the way he did. Maybe he didn’t like the idea of blanketing billions upon billions of dollars so quickly. Given how much has been wasted and how ineffective some of it has apparently been, maybe he was right.

well then I hope we never have to evacuate Minneapolis.

Given how much has been wasted and how ineffective some of it has apparently been, maybe he was right.

Shame he didn’t feel that way about the war. But, then, it’s easier to break things than it is to fix them, even if it costs a lot more.

You’re right that the levees should have been ready for Katrina, and past administrations should have taken care of it. But, then, the moment when it became abundantly obvious that the levees needed fixing was the year before Katrina, when Hurricane Ivan was fixing to hit New Orleans, but missed. Everybody knew the levees needed to be rebuilt, and that the wetlands needed to be restored. Nothing was done post Ivan.

After Katrina, Brownie admitted “there was no plan,” and said that the White House had told him to lie to put a positive spin on things.

According to Wikipedia: In October 2004, senior U.S. Army Corps of Engineers project manager Al Naomi submitted a proposal to Congress requesting $4 Million to fund a preliminary study for such a plan. Congress tabled the proposal, never addressing it on the floor, citing budgetary concerns resulting from the Iraq War.

I know it’s popular to reach back in history to figure out how Clinton is somehow to blame for stuff that is happening nowadays. Or look for patsies, such a Brownie, or Governor Kathleen Blanco, who the Republicans claimed did not deploy the national guard soon enough. Of course, as it turned out, she deployed them before the hurricane hit and asked for reinforcements, but, you know, I guess there’s enough blame to go around, even to those who did things right.

I guess I would take this discussion a lot more seriously if this administration had ever, for once, admitted that it screwed up, instead of casting around for more people to shift blame to. It’s what adults do.

Shame he didn’t feel that way about the war. But, then, it’s easier to break things than it is to fix them, even if it costs a lot more.

No disagreement there.

According to Wikipedia: In October 2004, senior U.S. Army Corps of Engineers project manager Al Naomi submitted a proposal to Congress requesting $4 Million to fund a preliminary study for such a plan. Congress tabled the proposal, never addressing it on the floor, citing budgetary concerns resulting from the Iraq War.

Of course it can be blamed on the war. But it can also be blamed on the incomprehensible amount of other worthless or non-essential spending that happens every year at every level of government. You and I both could find hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars spent on things less important than the levees in New Orleans. It’s $4 million for christ’s sake. Even in Minnesota $4 million gets tossed around like pocket change and our budget is “only” $34.5 billion. But until we get serious – truly serious – about how government spends our money we’ll keep looking backwards on things like levees breaking and the 35W bridge collapse and wonder why the hell we let things come the point where things like that can happen. And yes, I know who ran Congress in 2004 and who didn’t make the effort to find the $4 million. Believe me, no one is more furious at those idiots than I am.

Oops. Got a fact wrong. It was 1,800 who died as a result of Katrina, not 7,000.

1,800 when the estimated deaths could have been as high as 80,000. I’d say by any metric, the evacuation was a success. The two elements that were unaddressed then — the people who might be left behind, and the pets that might be left behind, are being addressed on this evacuation.

Say what you will, this is one area where Nagin did right.

Max, you’re on fire today, both here and at Metafilter. Nice work.

I forgive you for getting one fact wrong.

But this is the last time.

It will never happen again.

By the way, did you hear that McCain is 300 years old? Man, I knew he was old, but jeez.

That’s why I trust him to handle the country. He’s been here from the start.

I think he lost some of his lustre in the middle of his career, defecting to the Republicans after the Whig Party fell apart. Remember all those floor flights with the Know Nothings on CSPAN? Still, I wish the man well.

as long as they don’t cancel the 4am bar close, because I’m looking forward to the first ave thing wednesday night

I think he lost some of his lustre in the middle of his career, defecting to the Republicans after the Whig Party fell apart.

That’s why so many conservatives don’t trust him. If he abandoned the Whigs, he’ll abondon us that’s what I say.

Seriously though all Republicans should be skull fucked.

Come on over, raindog. I got your skull right here.

I’m just waiting to hear word from Kanye about which politician doesn’t care about us.

So many options…

Also, am I the only person who wishes people would stop citing wikipedia in non-pop-culture arguments when one can easily use the same Google-fu to find a more credible sources to cite or just link directly to the source cited in the Wikipedia article? (Bixby, 2008)

Wikipedia has an 80 percent accuracy rate. I double check when I have time, but in general Wikipedia is reputable.

I get all my non-pop culture references from Encyclopedia Brittanica.

Sweet! More free time at the RNC!!!!

I think wikipedia sometimes gets a bad rap. But not as lame as the old “You can ony have two sources from the Internet” that we used to get in high school when the Internet was new.

I didn’t even have the internet in high school (and not really in college), kevin, so quit yer bitching.

When I was in high school, it was “you can only have sources whose domains end in .edu” because apparently a .com = LIES LIES LIES LIES!

And definitely no Wikipedia, so we’d look shit up on Wikipedia and then reference whatever sources the page used.

Yeah but you lived in South Dakota. They didn’t even have fire there until 1987.

At least we had indoor plumbing before Iowa, ya dirty corn growing bastard!

Hee!

w/e go finish carving Crazy Horse.

Latest on NO evacuation.

did someone just use dirty corn and indoor plumbing in the same sentence? oh boy.

Ah… the rarely seen SD and IA rivalry.

@grote: Hee!

the only thing dividing those two states is a taint.

Kevin, maybe your republican buddies can donate to the cause, since they’re carving it without government subsidies, unlike all those giant Iowan hog farms…

SD represent!

Iowans have had indoor plumbing for a long, long time. You want proof? Go eat half a dozen ears of sweet corn…come back on Tuesday and tell me if you want to leave that sitting in a wooden hut behind your house in late summer heat.

I’ve eaten so much sweet corn the last few weeks that I deserve an ethanol subsidy.

(Lorne Green, whispering voice, on Mutual of Omaha): Here we see the meeting of two natural enemies. the south dakotan and the iowan. Watch as they politely insult each other on the internet…

i feel like I should be DT getting drunk(er) and mocking Republican fashions. but I’m kinda happy spinning Allman Brothers LPs and drinking Bubblejacks in my basement media bunker.

Go eat half a dozen ears of sweet corn…come back on Tuesday and tell me if you want to leave that sitting in a wooden hut behind your house in late summer heat.

Actually, what you’re smelling is the stench wafting northward from Sioux City.

I hear ya grote, but after the repubs I saw last nite by Lurcat, meh, it is too easy to mock them. My god, the dweebiness and blowhardiness… blech. I’m enjoying this vinho verde in the SLP too much.

Alie: Zing!

Ah, Sioux City. The poor cousins everyone secretly wishes won’t come to the family reunion. Then again, that’s a good problem to have compared to South Dakota, where your poor cousins are also aunt and uncle.

Kwatt: Zing!!!

Yeah…well…at least we can drive well! Yer mom!

Of course you can, there’s only one paved road.

And we have cars.

Yes you do, and I assure you the Pacers we sold you are fantastic motor carriages.

Good to see the rubes in Yankton are off the party line.

Having lived for several years in both SD and IA, I feel qualified to point out that Sioux City does, in fact, really stink and surprisingly, South Dakotans are worse drivers than Iowans.

Yeah, and you and I ended up here on purpose. Alie just got lost looking for Hussett’s Speedway.

CJC, It’s because we have to be careful of all the awestruck Iowan’s that made the trip to the big city of Sioux Falls.

/but, yes, South Dakotan’s are some slow ass drivers.

How can South Dakotans be slow drivers? The speed limit’s like 130 on I-29.

They see “55″ and think “10″.

Wow. It’s kinda like a Special Olympics Debate.

Aspergers vs. Assholery

The speed limit’s like 130 on I-29.

I think that was Wild Bill Janklow’s personal speed limit….

Way off topic here, but one thing I’ve learned in my travels is that nobody thinks anyone in another state can drive. Which state is rumored to have the excellent drivers by the rest of the country? Do people from Missouri say “Well, at least the Okies are excellent drivers”? I doubt it.

P.S. one guy I knew in North Dakota went to Washington state and came back and said they were really good drivers there, so maybe they are, but he pretty much said everything in Washington was way better than North Dakota. Which is probably true. Later on he moved there. I’m not talking about Rex though.

Well, as I said, I spent several years in both SD and IA. Generally, Iowegians don’t drive any worse than Minnesotans. South Dakotans do; I got really nervous riding with my friends who grew up there. My visit to San Francisco led me to believe that in general, they are really good drivers. But in my travels in the Pacific NW, I found that they’re no worse or better than here.

I’ve heard the Magliozzi boys lament the poor state of driving a couple times. I figure it’s just getting bad everywhere.

I shouldn’t even post this. It’s kind of a boring topic that’s probably been flogged to death around these parts…

Oh, I don’t doubt that such stories about how state _____ has terrible drivers is always rooted in anecdotal evidence. Where people drive better is a boring topic to me, but I am kind of interested from a sociological standpoint, the trend towards geographic chauvinism in regards to the ability to operate motor machinery. Not enough to go research it, or anything. Just enough to ponder it on the Internet for a few seconds.

Flog flog flog…

It my experience, it depends where the drivers comes from. Drivers from the rural areas know how to drive on those gravel roads at 80mph. However, when they get on the interstate, they get intimidated and go slow.

In cities, people drive as the roads allow. Thus, if there is lots of traffic with a high number of clover-leafs, then the drivers don’t know how to merge. Lots of left exits and exit only lane, the slower drivers don’t keep right. Thus, Des Moines drivers aren’t too bad, but Minneapolis drivers are.

However, don’t even get me started about Nebraska drivers!

“I’ve eaten so much sweet corn the last few weeks that I deserve an ethanol subsidy. “

My people will call your people, kevs.

Seriously, the local sweet corn crop this year has been outstanding. Best I have tasted in years. Bought some at a farmers market in Mt. Lake, MN. OMG! Those ears brought tears…of joy.

Here’s what I want to know:
So Target sponsored a party in Denver for the Democrats and they served (no joke) “Target-tinis” (That would be Absolut Vodka with Sierra Mist).

Will they be sponsoring a party like that here in the good ole homestate? Also…wouldn’t that taste awful?

That’s just a highball and doesn’t require a “-tini” name.

Yes, but that’s what Target is calling it.

Next question: How much money will Minnesota and Minnesota Businesses lose thanks to the cancelations due to Gustav?

Remains to be seen, ironic, although I had my doubts about the economic benefits of hosting the RNC (or DNC) from the start.

The event I am going to tommorow is still on, and organizers say it won’t be turned into a Gustov fundraiser, as some other events have been.

Kevin, maybe your republican buddies can donate to the cause, since they’re carving it without government subsidies, unlike all those giant Iowan hog farms…

I missed this last nite buy oh my gawwwwwwwwwd, did you make an ag subsidies joke?

As for John McCain, I don’t know why he voted the way he did. Maybe he didn’t like the idea of blanketing billions upon billions of dollars so quickly. Given how much has been wasted and how ineffective some of it has apparently been, maybe he was right.

Uh, what’s McCain’s voting record wrt the war in Iraq? He doesn’t seem to have a problem okaying “the idea of blanketing billions upon billions of dollars” that’ve been wasted funding an illegal invasion and counter-productive war in the Middle East … but the thought of using a fraction of those expenditures to rebuild within his own country is somehow impolitic?

Yeah. Right. McCain’s got his priorities straight.

I missed this last nite buy oh my gawwwwwwwwwd, did you make an ag subsidies joke?

I’m versatile like that

1. I’m not disputing the accuracy of wikipedia, I’d be saying the same thing if you’d been saying “according to Britannica”
2. Regardless, if the Wikipedia article being cited is so accurate then you should have a difficult time locating the source of the original info in the article because it will be cited in the article.
3. This has nothing to do with the number of sources you use. It has to do with being able to locate the evidence you’re using in your argument. I don’t want to wade through an article to get to the evidence in your argument.
4. “According to Wikipedia…” in a serious argumentjust sounds silly.

No wonder Sarah Palin is so pro-second-amendment. Without a gun, you can’t have a shotgun wedding.

Alie: 30/f/vers