Secrets of the City

I don’t know how it is nowadays, but Crowley, Louisiana produced Johnny Rebel, who made the most racist music I have ever heard in my life.

I’m going to pre-emptively say “That’s racist!” to every post. However, I request the macro be saved for really, really racist comments.

A little Boston-hate going on in that blog. I like. But not for the racial aspects. Just because I hate the Red Sox.

I’ve been chatting with a black friend in Boston and she seems to concur that Boston is really racist, they’re just really good at covering it up. She’s from there. It’s been an interesting chat.

I’m guessing you will find them in the same places where people won’t vote for Barack Obama “because he is a Muslim.” You saw crypto-racism in the guise of religious bigotry with Keith Ellison, now you see it wrapped in a lie .

Racism is different by region. What’s the old saying about proximity and attainment for blacks? Something about being close (integrated into their lives) to whites in the south, but economically lower, while the north flipped the paradigm. I wonder how much this has changed?

I think you need to come up with measures or a survey or something to have an index of most racist city.

Or most racist cities.

If, you know, it’s not a really short list.

I’ve been chatting with a black friend

Right. The inevitable “black friend” everyone claims to have in any conversation about racism!

This is a no-win thread.

I’m going to say Canton, SD for reasons I’d rather not discuss in print.

Why not make a database of anecdotes/take a poll? ‘Cause aiming for good reliable metrics sounds like a PITA. Racism as an attitude is hard to measure or quantify, but the effects(if people could agree upon them) would be easier to measure.

Sure, we could make it on one of the lists, if we could figure out how to quantify it. But so could just about every city in the U.S.

But how would we do vis-a-vis Portland? That’s what’s really important!

It’s actually easy to quantify it if you feel like doing some large scale polling. Any question about politics is a not good one. Would you have a problem if your kid married outside your race? That’s a good one.

Also, check dating websites that are not geared toward any specific ethnic group. That’s pretty much the awesomest display of racial attitudes ever. For reals.

Also, the Google ads in this thread are full of WIN.
At least for me.
Because, you know, I’m black.

mjm gets it.

Oh no, does this mean Portland racists have better access to urban bike trails than Minneapois racists?

Racists in Minneapolis ride bikes on their trails like this and racists in Portland ride bikes like that…and it’s better.

What does the article have to do with MN? No mention of St. Cloud so I’m unsure why it merits a posting.

@jtd:

Because the article itself offers an open ended question about which city is the most racist. So, it has everything and nothing to do with every city in the US right there. Then, to make it more local, I asked how racist people thought the Twin Cities were relative to other cities.

So there you go, it’s local.

I’m racist-ist.

@wtfmn

Does that mean you have some sort of racist fetish?

Did someone say racist?

Hey, don’t be a racistist! Some of my best friends are racist.

I’ve lived many places from the south to New England, including a number of years in Boston. I love Boston, but Boston is a racist city.

As the adroit commenter pointed out, racism comes in all forms. There were no cross burnings in Boston like the city I lived in down south (we’re talking 2004 here). But there’s definitely an undertone of racism in Boston that can be further generalized to a xenophobia of cultural/ethnic outsiders. In some ways, color matters less there than culture.

Some Boston friends of mine like to joke about “Sullys” and “Sals” when talking about Boston racism: a dangerous sort of stereotyping, but one that gets at the nature of self-segregating (and otherwise) ethnic enclaves in the city.

I’m not sure how much different Minneapolis is. The day I moved here someone made a derogatory comment to me about people sitting on stoops in Philips and North. You find it everywhere.

Some transplants here may even comment about the difficulty of being a cultural outsider as a non-native in Minnesota. That’s not racism, but a cultural divide that’s still able to be felt.

The better question would be “are we a racist country” to which the challenge would be to identify a diverse nation that does not face these challenges.

Ugh. Pandora’s Box, right?

But, I want to point out that there is a lot of racism here in Minnesota against Somalis, Hmong, Vietnamese, Laoations, and Latinos. I guess it could technically be xenophobia. But I see the American born blacks, as well as whites doing this. I’ve also know quite a few Latinos to be racist against blacks.

So, when we say racism, do we mean the traditional majority whites against the traditional minorities, or is it more encompassing? And of course, there is the ongoing question of is it possible to be racist if you are black?

But how would we do vis-a-vis Portland? That’s what’s really important!

Everybody knows that where street cars travel, racial peace soon follows.

Did someone say racist?

I think Irwin Tang is a wuss. Does that make me a racist?

No. But what you feel about his wussiness is completely irrelevant to the case he puts forth, so it makes you a noxious windbag.

Wussiness is never irrelevant in any context.

Chuck:

You taking sides in the General Election this go ’round?

More to the point, is The UpTake taking sides?

Wussiness is never irrelevant in any context.

I don’t know how relevant any of it is to this thread.

Wussiness is never irrelevant in any context.

And yet noxious gasbags are.

And of course, there is the ongoing question of is it possible to be racist if you are black?

Of course not!

Uh, am I racist for saying that? I’ve met a few northern blacks who could give white Southern good ol’ boys a race for the racism gold.

For all their outward appearance of hospitality and graciousness, the Japanese harbor some very racist beliefs not only of non-Asian but of other Asians, too. The feeling’s mutual, too. Chinese and Japanese can bicker like the English and French have bickered for centuries. We Americans had our Manifest Destiny; the Japanese had their Kokutai. Same sauce; different bottle.

I’m just sad that there are still so many white Americans who simply cannot tolerate the reality that demographics change. What I’ve found, though, I think, is that many of those white bigots have very little comprehension of the larger world around them. (Well, duh.) To them, the US is white and Christian and ordained by God to have dominion over all things earthly. Little do they realize that they sound just like the Muslim “terrorists” they so despise for the exact same pseudo-religious manifestations. Pot, meet kettle.

I remember taking seminars where it was explained that people of color cannot be racist. I’m not going to get this exactly right, but the reason is that it takes power to be racists and that the power currently lies with the white folk. They can be prejudiced, but they cannot be racist. Now, Japanese in Japan could be, but not here.

I don’t buy into it, but it is an arguement.

but the reason is that it takes power to be racists and that the power currently lies with the white folk.

That’s quite a broad statement. A white person who is interviewing for a job with a black person hiring manager could easily become a victim of racism if the black manager didn’t like white people and decided to hire another black person just based on their race. Racism is simply forming opinions and making decisions based on race. That’s why affirmative action is fundamentally a racist policy.

Yes, blacks can be racist. Those who say that only those in power can be racist are wrong. Only those who have power can discriminate. Let me explain, power need not be narrowly defined in this case. I see power as ranging from an individual having the power to choose who they associate with to national power and everything in between. Anytime *anyone* has *any* power they can discrimate.

But the beauty of racism is that anyone can be racist regardless of race. All racism is is being anti-a race(s). You can be, say, Native American and be racist toward Native Americans. We call those types self-loathing racists.

In conclusion,

Yes. We. Can.

I only hate the Dutch. Cheap bastards.

(kidding)

Would Jesse Jackson saying Barry Obama isn’t black enough self-loathing racism? How about when Barry called his grandmother a “typical white person?”

Most Indians I know despise white people as a general principle. Yet when we sioux call the chippewa rabbit-chokers, that’s not self-loathing racism, that’s cultural distinction.

I think if you make sweeping statements based on stereotypes, you’re not doing yourself or a particular demographic any favors.

Are you saying I shouldn’t refer to the chippewa as rabbit chokers?

I wouldn’t presume to tell you to do anything, Maz, as you’ve probably disregarded it out of hand, so there really isn’t any point for you to ask that question.

I concur.

… the reason is that it takes power to be racists and that the power currently lies with the white folk.

LOL That, in and of itself, is a racist statement. Go to Asia. No white people in charge there. Go to Africa and show me where white supremacy rules. Latin America? Hugo Chavez would beg to differ. “Oh, well, yeah, but … whites control the world’s economy.” Not anymore, sucka. He who has the gold makes the rules … and we have mortgaged ourselves to China and Japan.

And the thing about a race not being able to be racist toward itself?

Irish, French, Italian and even German immigrants to the US would’ve begged to differ 100 years ago.

I think the word “racism” is insufficient for the complexities of our culture. Jack Ezra Keats is called a racist, and what have you got left for Johnny Rebel? I think we need about nine words, one describing that ill-at-ease feeling well-meaning white liberals get when a black guy that looks like a gang banger ask them what time it is, and even though they smile and tell him, they feel like maybe they betrayed just a little bit of their unease, and another word for a sweet and universally beloved children’s book by a white author about a little black kid playing in the snow and getting called home to lunch by a stout mother figure who looks a bit like “Mammy” from Gone with the Wind, and a third word for a guy who tells racist jokes once in a while, and so on down the line, increasing incrementally until you get to complete bastards like Johnny Rebel.

Yet when we sioux call the chippewa rabbit-chokers, that’s not self-loathing racism, that’s cultural distinction.

But, maz, you fail to understand the distinction that self-loathing involves people of the SAME race. For all their cultural differences, the Sioux and Chippewa are of the same racial heritage. (Heck, weren’t they originally Asian anyway?) White Anglo-Saxons despised Catholics, whether Irish, French or Italian. That’s self-loathing even if the distinction is cultural, not “race” per se.

We’re raised as children not to trust strangers. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand how easily that translates into adulthood xenophobia.

Tell a white supremacist Christian that they practice an Asian religion and they’ll call you a liar until you point them to a map. Tell them that Jesus was African and their head will explode.

Civilizations thrive when they embrace their differences. China’s greatest period of technological innovation (paper currency, the printing press, etc.) happened when their Emperor was a Mongolian who counted a St. Thomas Christian among his advisors. (Yes, Christianity reached China and Japan 1000 years before the arrival of the Portugese and Spaniards.) Sad to say I don’t see the US embracing “difference” much anymore.

Yeah, racism has a huge continuum. Which is why it’s hard to quantify.

Yet when we sioux call the chippewa rabbit-chokers, that’s not self-loathing racism, that’s cultural distinction.

Well, it is another example of the fact that nobody hates Indians as much as you do, so long as they are not your specific kind of Indian.

It’s too bad you know so little about Indians, max. Your ignorance is astounding.

Before the wasichu graced this continent, it was populated with about 500 indian tribes. Each tribe had a distinct culture and traditions. When the u.s. army came west to eradicate the sioux, cheyenne, and other warring tribes, some indians helped the army and served as scouts. The Crow were especially helpful to people like Custer and his ilk. The sioux never forgave the Crow for what they did and to this day, sioux people despise the crow.

There is a long tradition of warfare between the sioux and chippewa. Battle Creek park off Highhway 61 is named for such a epic battle.

This isn’t racism any more than the history of the french and the english animosity towards each other being due to “racism.”

I’m white and have been the victim of non-white racism many times

It’s too bad you know so little about Indians, max. Your ignorance is astounding. Before the wasichu graced this continent, it was populated with about 500 indian tribes.

And, maz, before the Indian tribes … ? This continent was populated with an even more indigenous people than those we today call Native Americans. They just didn’t leave a lot of pottery, arrowheads and other stuff behind. Is it wrong to believe your ancestors practiced genocide?

Genocide being the ultimate act of racism?

What do you call genocide? Tribes warred against other tribes for slaves, for hunting grounds, to eliminate competition for chicks. The history of the world is one of one tribe trying to eliminate another tribe for perceived advantages. This continent was no different that europe, asia or africa in that regard.

Yup, maz. But it just goes to show that non-whites can be racist, too. Indian tribes were no different 10,000 years ago than the white “tribes” that forced your ancestors onto reservations. Be proud of your Asian heritage, maz. Embrace the inner “wa” that’s in your genes even if Native American continental existence came at the elimination of some other peoples’ culture after your ancestors crossed the Bering Strait.

c/at the elimination/with the elimination

It’s too bad you know so little about Indians, max. Your ignorance is astounding.

I know. It’s a pity I don’t know enough to hate Indians who aren’t Maz, in the way that Maz does.

Hooray discourse!
Or national dialog on race!
Or encouraging the troll!

Any of those.

Hooray!

Rat: The UpTake is a 501c(4) so we don’t endorse or work with political campaigns. That said, our choice of stories reflects the fact that most, but not all, of our citizen journalists are progressives.

Well mz bixby you started the thread and you knew what you were doing you little she-devil you.

At least chuck is honest.

I’m white and have been the victim of non-white racism many times…

You had me at “I’m white…”

Be proud of your Asian heritage, maz. Embrace the inner “wa” that’s in your genes even if Native American continental existence came at the elimination of some other peoples’ culture

Oh, true, noodleman. One of the reasons I don’t use the “native american” label. It’s just as misleading and incorrect as “indians.”

What, exactly, is the “inner wa”?

Short for “Inner W.A. Frost,” I think. He’s saying Maz has a genetic disposition to appreciate fine dining.

So from reading the comments I have formed the opinion that racism is like obscenity. You know it when you see it but it’s really tough to quantify and means different things to different people.

That said I think economists are the scum of the earth and should be taken as seriously as a sad clown. A creepy sad clown.

That just had sex with Florance Henderson.

Are you an anti-economite?

Can’t believe no one’s thrown out
this yet.

More info
here

I’ve read a lot of Banaji’s stuff, and it’s fascinating.

I have to go do some other stuff now.

What, exactly, is the “inner wa”?

“Wa” is a Japanese word that sorta-kinda means “harmony” or “peace.” It’s usually applied to group relationships. If you are at peace with yourself and your “tribe,” you have wa. It also involves mutual respect plus group conformity.

An American writer wrote a book titled “You Gotta Have ‘Wa’” that told stories about the difficulties US baseball players have had adapting to Japanese-style baseball and living in Japan. Things like bowing to the umpire or running to first even on a sure out.

I think I would measure racism a couple ways. Opinion polls and IAT tests like yepnope’s could be useful. Anecdotal evidence not so much.

Remember this post, where minorities took over 3x as long to “feel at home” in Minneapolis than in other cities? That seems like it could be relevant.

And definitely I’d consider economic indicators–wage gap, education gaps, jail population gaps.

Finally, would integration be a good measure? The less concentrated the minority populations are, the less racist the neighborhoods?

Look, people can be as racist as they like, for all I care. As long as it doesn’t cost me any money. Actually, I can even handle it if it costs me money if they’re honest about it. If a potential client says to me “hey look, we didn’t hire you because we don’t like Indians.” Fine. At least he’s honest. I’d just move on to the next potential client. I’m not really into thought crimes.

If a potential client says to me “hey look, we didn’t hire you because we don’t like Indians.”

Why would he say that when there are so many other reasons why he wouldn’t hire you?

See bixby, that proves you don’t know me.

on the contrary, she knows just enough about you.

heh

Well, I don’t know about you guys, but that convinces me we’ve been wrong this whole time!

I don’t necessarily agree (with the video) that everyone that has called me a derogatory name in reference to my race as “fighting words” as in some instances it is born out of ignorance.

When I’m in the south, I appreciate that people are blunt about their attitude towards me as at least I know where he or she is coming from. Here it is much more of a “polite racism” as in won’t say it to my face, but find it necessary to describe me, or other peeps of color, in a derogatory way. Or make comments online, but would never say it in person.

Opinion polls? Really? I can’t see a lot of people of color responding to that.

Here it is much more of a “polite racism” as in won’t say it to my face, but find it necessary to describe me, or other peeps of color, in a derogatory way

You mean what george bush called the “soft bigotry of low expectatons?” When I was in my first professional job my boss once told me that I was “pretty smart for an indian.” He thought it was compliment. I thought it was stupid.

I can’t believe there are people here who even brought up the question “Can non-whites can be racist?”. Duh.

There is no continuum, there is no complex explanation. Racism, the concept, is easy to understand–It has existed forever as some pointed out when discussing native americans. People hate different people, and always have.

It has nothing to do with power–Bixby explained the differences quite well.

See bixby, that proves you don’t know me.

Thank Goodness.

And make that statement (replacing Bixby with Maz)any generalization about any group of people you or anyone you personally insult on this site. Because I don’t know you personally but I do you know you on MNSpeak and I think g_rote best sums it up when he says.

on the contrary, she knows just enough about you.

And in response to an earlier points…

Would Jesse Jackson saying Barry Obama isn’t black enough self-loathing racism? How about when Barry called his grandmother a “typical white person?”

You clearly don’t understand what self-loathing means. It means that you are ashamed of your own race for whatever reason and, as a result, distance yourself from your own heritage and/or reality.

It’s too bad you know so little about Indians, max. Your ignorance is astounding.

Wave your hands in the air, and scream “that’s ironic” like you just don’t care!

Be proud of your Asian heritage, maz. Embrace the inner “wa” that’s in your genes even if Native American continental existence came at the elimination of some other peoples’ culture
Oh, true, noodleman. One of the reasons I don’t use the “native american” label. It’s just as misleading and incorrect as “indians.”

Okay, because we should all deny our heritage and say that we’re all people! That only works for one person and you’re not Stephen Colbert.

Do you have term you’d like to offer for people who are of the ethnicity that settled in the US immediately before the European settlers got here?
Perhaps we can be like the Canadians and call them “First Nations”.

Look, people can be as racist as they like, for all I care. As long as it doesn’t cost me any money. Actually, I can even handle it if it costs me money if they’re honest about it.

Here’s the thing, as a black woman it probably does cost me money in the long run. Black women, on average, make 66 cents on the dollar compared to white men. And even if you account for the education gap, there are tons of horror stories about companies paying women less than men for no good reason (see Justice Ginsburg’s dissent in is Ledbetter v. Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co), so why the hell wouldn’t there be a pay gaps tied to race?

It’s not about honesty, it’s about self-worth. Being a black woman doesnt make me worth less as a person nor does it make me worth less as an employee. If you’re fine with letting people run all over you because of your race, just because you don’t want to make it a “thought exercise” (too hard for you?) or as the rest of us call it, “reality” that’s you. I’m not.

First of all, I can’t relate to your “self-loathing” theory because I’m neither proud nor ashamed of my race. It’s the genetic makeup people happened to be born with. So what?

And I didn’t say “thought exercise,” I said I’m not into “thought crimes” as in, I’m not in favor of making it a crime or punishing people for what they might think.

Probably the biggest reason black women make less than white men is the careers they choose to pursue. The NAACP discovered a few years ago that over two-thirds of black college graduates choose to work for the government.

Two bleeping thirds!

There’s your problem. Start a business. You’ll do better than your peers.

Bixby, you obviously aren’t self-loathing. I would like to ask a question:

Do you feel that there are some communityaspects within the black community that are destructive? I’m talking here about a community-wide thing, not geographic, not economic. I guess what I am referring to are the high number of absent fathers, violence, etc often found at disproportionate levels in the black community.

Now many of these problems can probably be directly tied to the disparity of resources–the education differences from inner cities to the suburbs, and of course institutional racism, as well as other things.

I guess what I am wondering is, from your perspective, are some of the ‘results’ of this historical inequality now becoming cemented as cultural norms within the black community?

It has nothing to do with power–Bixby explained the differences quite well.

But power does have something to do with racism.

This is what Bix said:
Those who say that only those in power can be racist are wrong. Only those who have power can discriminate. Let me explain, power need not be narrowly defined in this case. I see power as ranging from an individual having the power to choose who they associate with to national power and everything in between. Anytime *anyone* has *any* power they can discrimate.

Those is power can, and have, set up their “world” to discriminate against those who are racially different.

Let me ask you, Baker, when you see poor white folks sitting on their porch or working on the engineless car that sits on their lawn, do you say, what community aspects of white culture has happened here? When white folks get arrested, do you say, how has the white community failed here? Is it the heavy metal and the emphasis on video games that seems so endemic to whites? Is it the love of violent movies and white culture’s tendency to pay for things using credit cards?

I’m curious about this in general, because the sense of a black collective responsibility seems to come up all the time, but I have never heard whites talk about themselves as a community, and I’ve never heard people tut tut about how whites are somehow collectively failing their community.

And this is not directed at Baker, but some of these same people like to point to rising crime and say, oh, it’s the failing of the black community, with their baby mamas and bling and getting theirs. But crime has actually been falling. Does the black community now get credit for that, or is crime something that black people are only responsible for when it is a problem?

Now many of these problems can probably be directly tied to the disparity of resources–the education differences from inner cities to the suburbs, and of course institutional racism, as well as other things

[gag]

The NAACP discovered a few years ago that over two-thirds of black college graduates choose to work for the government.

Choose to work? Or is that one of the places where they have equal chances of employment? Or, maybe about the only place to work.

You get to places in Mississippi, and the government is about the only place that’s hiring, not to mention following EEOC requirements.

Negative.
You said it yourself. Those with power can discriminate. I could be sitting in a shack in Louisina with $1.50 to my name, and no friends, no connections, no resources to act on the way I feel. I could be the most vile shitbag racist person ever, but I don’t need any power whatsoever to be so.

Discrimnation and racism are different, but potentially related things.

Holy crap I agree with max.

Probably the biggest reason black women make less than white men is the careers they choose to pursue. The NAACP discovered a few years ago that over two-thirds of black college graduates choose to work for the government.

Let’s revisit what I just said.

And even if you account for the education gap, there are tons of horror stories about companies paying women less than men for no good reason (see Justice Ginsburg’s dissent in is Ledbetter v. Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co), so why the hell wouldn’t there be a pay gaps tied to race?

Ledbetter was about women within the same company as men. You may have addressed the 66 cents on the dollar issue but you didn’t address the second point about women and minorities being discriminated against. I granted that there could be other contributing factors for the 66 cents figure.

Wait, no you didn’t address the point. NAACP study link, please.

First of all, I can’t relate to your “self-loathing” theory because I’m neither proud nor ashamed of my race. It’s the genetic makeup people happened to be born with. So what?

Wow, you’re really good at talking out of both sides of your ass.

I’m not sure which of us is the broken clock in this scenario, right twice per day, maz.

@Baker

You ask a good question, let me think about it over lunch/when I take a break from doing work and I’ll get back to you. It’s a complex question…

I’m neither proud nor ashamed of my race.

Oh, come now. There are plenty of reasons to be proud to be Irish. We Hibernians are a noble race.

Max, with all due respect, I was addressing Bixby on that question, not you.

But If whites were the minority, and disproportionately exhibited some of these characteristics like the black community does, I would indeed ask these questions. We all know that crimes, poverty, does not affect one race, Max. The key word here is disproprtionately.

In 2005, homicide offending rates for blacks were more than 7 times higher than the rates for whites. Why?

Wow, you’re really good at talking out of both sides of your ass.

Not at all. I make a distinction between race and culture. I’m proud of my sioux culture, it’s history and traditions. Those things aren’t tied to race any more than Irish whiskey is tied to the white race. I’m not the one who’s confused here, you are.

I think what Baker is talking about is truly more of a cultural/class issue than a racial issue. There is a culture that includes subsisting on welfare, having multiple children with multiple fathers, absentee fathers, higher rates of violence, etc. There are people of all races that belong to this culture. There may be more of some races than others, but I would say is spans all of them. It seems to me that people often confuse class-ism and racism. Most people are comfortable with the people of their same class/culture regardless of race and are fearful/disdainful of those outside of that.

Holy crap now I agree with the princess. Time to take a nap.

Ha!

Why isn’t culture tied to race? The cultural practices of my birth family (Chinese/Samoan) are far different than the cultural practices of my adoptive family (Irish).

I suspect homicide rates in predominantly black neighborhoods have a lot to do with poverty, prominence of drugs, poorer schools, easy access to guns, and the development of gangs. And it’s also worth noting that the victims of these homicides are primarily black as well.

Those is power can, and have, set up their “world” to discriminate against those who are racially different.

This.

I’m curious about this in general, because the sense of a black collective responsibility seems to come up all the time, but I have never heard whites talk about themselves as a community, and I’ve never heard people tut tut about how whites are somehow collectively failing their community.

And this.

I guess what I am wondering is, from your perspective, are some of the ‘results’ of this historical inequality now becoming cemented as cultural norms within the black community?

Let me just preface this with the fact that what I say is only reflective of my opinion. I’m not speaking for any other black people. How messed up is it that I have to say that in the first place.

I’m on my way out, so sorry for not expanding my points more:
1. Stereotype threat
2. which leads to Self-fulfilling prophecies.
3. Have you read Nickled and Dimed? Contrary to the popular “I pulled myself up by my bootstraps” it is incredibly difficult to escape from poverty no matter how hard you work and how responsible you are. Given that historical inequities put a large number of black people in bad situations in terms of class in the first place, it’s not really surprising that there are so many blacks having a hard time.

But…

And this is not directed at Baker, but some of these same people like to point to rising crime and say, oh, it’s the failing of the black community, with their baby mamas and bling and getting theirs. But crime has actually been falling. Does the black community now get credit for that, or is crime something that black people are only responsible for when it is a problem?

And that.

If people are going to start pointing fingers and demanding “responsibility” from an entire race they probably need to take a look at their own race. Because there’s a whole lot of hot messes that are going on in the US that involve all kinds of people. White collar crime?

Yes, there are absent fathers and violence. This problem exists in every co poor community. There are plenty of upper-middle class black neighborhoods around the country that don’t have this problem (e.g. in Atlanta). However, an insanely large number of those poor communities are populated by people of color. There are rich white people with absent fathers who are off jetsetting or whatever. My dad not being involved in my life is most certainly not because he’s black or because he’s impoverished, it’s because he’s an jackass.

Yes, people need to be have personal responsibility and yes, people need to be accountable. However, I don’t think this is something that should be said to the “black community” (meetings every second Thursday of the month!). It needs to be said to the entire nation.

The accountability and personal responsibility problems that the entire nation has are unfortunately magnified in poor communities, among people who don’t have the resources to cover up the messes they made and create a facade of doing things correctly.

So, yeah, there are cultural norms of irresponsibility in the black community. They’re the same cultural norms of irresponsibility that permeate every “community”/class/ race. It just so happens to be a little more obvious among poor people, many of them being black.

Sorry for the long response.
Peace out, it’s taco time (no, seriously, it is)!

I suspect homicide rates in predominantly black neighborhoods have a lot to do with poverty, prominence of drugs, poorer schools, easy access to guns, and the development of gangs. And it’s also worth noting that the victims of these homicides are primarily black as well.

Fair enough. But why more guns in primarily black neighborhoods? Why more drugs? We can try to link these back to inequalities, lack of opportunities, but I think it could be deeper than that. These behaviors are often learned, and perhaps even expected? Are young black mothers in certain communities almost expected to not have the father of their babies stay around and help? Are they expected to recieve monetary assistance?

I guess the question I am asking is: Can sustained opression/inequality, over several decades, that produce negative results, actually ingrain some expected aspects, and potentially expected behavior, norms, into a culture?

And the same is true of poor hispanic neighborhoods and indian reservations as far as that goes.

One more thing:

what I wrote above doesn’t negate the fact that the stereotypes that people have about blacks who are of one class tend to get applied to blacks of any class. Racial discrimination against blacks totally exists and I’ve even experienced it. Contrary to what Maz seems to believe, having privilege (and we all do to some extent) does not prevent you from being screwed over because of your race.

No, seriously, I’m leaving to go get my tacos!

Where the hell is Public Enemy when we need them?!

Oh yeah Flav is dating chick on cable.

God baker, no offense, but did you grow up on a farm or something?

Maz, on your bike. Your comments to me are about as important as beanie babies to a blacksmith.

I am trying to ask a difficult, sensitive, and perhaps taboo question, and get an answer from someone who may have a different perspective.

I guess the question I am asking is: Can sustained opression/inequality, over several decades, that produce negative results, actually ingrain some expected aspects, and potentially expected behavior, norms, into a culture?

Absolutely, see the Irish and Italians in America from 1840-1941. Nast used to draw the Irish as drunken brawling monkeys. The Italians fared even worse. Irish men were shut out of economic opportunities and in order to avoid greater emasculation created alternate systems of power which ultimately preyed upon the same community which spawned them. The machine politics and gang crime of the 19th century is not too different from ghetto politics and drug gangs. The commodities have changed (votes to drugs) and the escape routes have as well(emigration vs. education).

Contrary to what Maz seems to believe, having privilege (and we all do to some extent) does not prevent you from being screwed over because of your race.

The irony of course is, by all accounts I had a rougher upbringing than bixby did, what with her fancy schools and such, yet she’s the one who apparently has been most victimized by her genetic makeup. I suppose Oprah feels the same way.

I guess the question I am asking is: Can sustained opression/inequality, over several decades, that produce negative results, actually ingrain some expected aspects, and potentially expected behavior, norms, into a culture?

My theory? Yes, it can.

However, the corollary to the black experience in America is the Jewish experience in Europe and America. Oppressed for centuries, a large number of Jews still managed to attain wealth and prosperity by finding opportunities that brought about those results. Irwin Jacobs got his start as a rag picker, didn’t he?

The difference, I think, is that the Jewish identity rewards drive and determination whereas blacks who exhibit drive and determination are accused of being “Uncle Tom” or “selling out to the Man.” It’s much easier to blame someone else for your troubles and failures than it is to work at becoming prosperous. Happens to white folks, too. (There are more whites collecting welfare than blacks, dontchaknow.)

Maz, on your bike. Your comments to me are about as important as beanie babies to a blacksmith.

Are you sure their even that important? Because, even now, some of the rare beanies babies have some value.

The difference, I think, is that the Jewish identity rewards drive and determination whereas blacks who exhibit drive and determination are accused of being “Uncle Tom” or “selling out to the Man.”

A hundred years ago I used to volunteer at the neighborhood junior high school (yeah, yeah, I know). It was at the time when St. Paul was experiencing a large immigration of people from Vietnam. At one time St. Paul had the second largest vietnamese population of any city in the country. Anyway, I digress. A committee I was on was set up to think of ways to reward kids who had made the honor roll each semester. The 7-8 of the top 10 students were consistently vietnamese kids.

It’s a cultural thing with the vietnamese families to value education as the most important thing in a kid’s life. Those kids would have made the honor roll no matter what we gave as an incentive or reward. But “other kids” had to be convinced that is was indeed cool to be smart! And making the honor roll was a good thing.

It was depressing.

Most people are comfortable with the people of their same class/culture regardless of race and are fearful/disdainful of those outside of that.

Most people are comfortable with others who look like them. A wealthy white community is far more accepting of a white wealthy family than they are of a black weathly family regardless if the black family exhibits same class behaviors. And if you don’t buy it, come to my ‘hood. As progressive as this neighborhood claims to be, my neighbors are very wary of the black family that has moved in on one side versus the white family who moved in on the other side of me.

the Jewish identity rewards drive and determination

A priest, a vicar and a rabbi are asked the question “When does life begin?”
The priest says: “The moment of conception”.
The vicar replies: “The moment of birth”.
The rabbi replies: “The moment the kids are married, done with graduate school and the mortgage has been paid off.”

I guess I must be where I am in life because I’m Irish, rather than Jewish.

As progressive as this neighborhood claims to be, my neighbors are very wary of the black family that has moved in on one side versus the white family who moved in on the other side of me.

See, your mistake is in believing that “progressive” people are not racist. Ha!

maz, consider the circumstances that brought them (or their ancestors) to this country.

The Vietnamese that found themselves here came to a country that had just spent years fighting a war on their behalf (supposedly).

Whereas most African Americans forebears were brought and kept here in chains, bought and sold, families split apart. And, even after a civil war that abolished slavery, for nearly a hundred years were denied the right to vote, kept in segregation, in a country supposedly founded on the freedom and equality of all. Hell, Newsweek had an online feature showing places in the south where de facto slavery existed well into the 1940s.

Yeah, I can see a certain amount of cynicism arising regarding the value of what the broader society might expect or desire of you.

African-Americans are descended from four bears?

This changes everything!

See, your mistake is in believing that “progressive” people are not racist. Ha!

Cat didn’t make that assertion, maz. Quit putting words in people’s mouths. Wealthy doesn’t equal progressing (often it equals the opposite).

progressive, I mean.

African-Americans are descended from four bears?

yes, and apparently all that talk about not liking water & swimming is false, too.

Oh, wait, she did, nevermind, I’m in a food coma from lunch.

It’s not necessarily that I believe that progressive = non-racist, but it is what a lot of my neighbors touted… until the black family moved in and that’s when I realized that their pants were on fire.

Setting your pants on fire is a tried and true method of scaring off bears.

Oh, wait, she did, nevermind, I’m in a food coma from lunch.

Eating some more of that bad meat, eh Alie?

I’m in a food coma from lunch.
I did not poison you, I assure you.

African-Americans are descended from four bears?

This changes everything!

Oh noes! Stephen Colbert doesn’t see color but he certainly sees bears and he hates bears!

I’m never going to be his black friend now.

Le sigh.

Very true, Max. As I have yet to see bears of any sort in my ‘hood. But, there are a number of cougars living here.

I wonder what that means?

Mean I’m headed out to your neck of the woods this afternoon with some cougar traps. And by that, I mean a six pack of beer.

How hopeless is it that when inner city black youth are asked the question “where do you see yourself in ten years”, many of them answer “In prison” or “dead”.?
It’s what they may have grown up with–their peers/fathers/siblings may be incarcerated, or dead.
Being a corner boy, living on a precarious ledge is seemingly a normal thing for black youth. For many it truly may be the only option, due to lack of opportunties, role models, employment, etc. But for some I think it is perceived as the only option, because of what their surroundings dictate, and what their peers and families see as normal expectations or behavior.

Bottled malternatives might be a better bet.

I think they prefer fruity cocktails. Name a cocktail after one, as in “pamtini” and you’re golden… or so I’m told.

I’M the fruity cocktail, baby!

I guess I was trending down-market. I was thinking of those bottled mojito things.

Oh, nothing pre-made works – must be fresh ingredients in order to draw one out… or so I’m told.

It’s a cultural thing with the vietnamese families to value education as the most important thing in a kid’s life.

More Confucian than Vietnamese, because the Chinese and Japanese, too, value education (and filial piety).

On the other hand, Americans can also value education. I know personally of two sets of parents who told their children at a fairly young age that they (the parents) would not be able to guarantee being able to afford college educations for their children but would do all they could to enable their children to secure scholarships. And they did, working with each child (each family had two children) to strengthen their academic weaknesses at the secondary level. All four children wound up with full-ride scholarships. Two of the four have since gone on the pursue Masters; one in bio-medical research.

I just heard over the weekend another story, too, of a parent who went the extra mile to ensure a child’s academic success. She had informed them one night that she was failing college physics. He said “Not in my house, you aren’t.” She passed.

I’m just saying that the road to success for a child is as much of a parent’s responsibility (if not more so) as it is society’s. We should be encouraging more parental involvement in education; not foist it off entirely on the shoulders of an already over-burdened education system. Might be a way, too, to bring the cost of education down, yeah?

We should be encouraging more parental involvement in education; not foist it off entirely on the shoulders of an already over-burdened education system.
That’s easy to say when middle class status was attainable with one working parent. Nowadays, dropping one income is a sure way to exit the middle classes.

Mean I’m headed out to your neck of the woods this afternoon with some cougar traps. And by that, I mean a six pack of beer.

And Neil Diamond tickets.

That’s easy to say when middle class status was attainable with one working parent. Nowadays, dropping one income is a sure way to exit the middle classes.

Both the families I mentioned are white, and both parents work.

It can be done. Parents just have to 1) stop watching TV and 2) get their kids off the video games.

Maybe it depends on where you live in the states with regard to the emphasis on education.

Having spent a majority of my school years out east, it wasn’t if you would continue on to a university, but where. I remember kids in grade school saying things like: “When I go to Georgetown” or “My parents are sending me to x school to be x”. The assumption that it would just be. It was weird.

good point, noodleman.
Although I would agrue that a child’s education is more the parents responsibility than society’s. Society provides the framework for education(albeit a terribly weak one in many circumstances), but responsible parents are the key in a child’s educational success. And, “you can’t leave until you did your homework”, is not what I am referring to.

And I would argue that this is a huge factor is the problems we see in the black community–a disproportionate number of irresponsible or absent parents. :::::
And this is one of the factors that I think could be becoming a cultural norm.

That’s easy to say when middle class status was attainable with one working parent. Nowadays, dropping one income is a sure way to exit the middle classes.

I can assure you that those vietnamese families were not in the middle class. Yet.

I can assure you that those vietnamese families were not in the middle class. Yet.

Many of them would have come from the “middle class” in Vietnam.

It can be done. Parents just have to 1) stop watching TV and 2) get their kids off the video games.
But dancing with the stars is so much more important… And playing video games leads to a high profile career as an Air Force drone pilot, or the last starfighter.

My parents right now are engrossed in Nashville Star (street dance tonight in May City!!!) but fortunately for society 75% of their kids have already graduated high school.

Many of them would have come from the “middle class” in Vietnam.

Very true, especially the “boat people” who arrived after 1979. They were ethnic Chinese merchant class who were kicked out by the Communists.

but responsible parents are the key in a child’s educational success. And, “you can’t leave until you did your homework”, is not what I am referring to.

And I would argue that this is a huge factor is the problems we see in the black community–a disproportionate number of irresponsible or absent parents. :::::
And this is one of the factors that I think could be becoming a cultural norm.

I think I address how this isn’t a black person problem so much as it is a poor person problem, of which is disproportionate number of people are black. Unless the country figures out away to remedy the economic ills of the poor, this isn’t going to get fixed. It’s a problem inherent in America not just the black “community” (next week we’re having a potluck at the meeting!), so it isn’t really fair to put this on black people. It’s a problem w/ society in general.

First of all, I can’t relate to your “self-loathing” theory because I’m neither proud nor ashamed of my race. It’s the genetic makeup people happened to be born with. So what?

That’s privilege talking.

Can sustained opression/inequality, over several decades, that produce negative results, actually ingrain some expected aspects, and potentially expected behavior, norms, into a culture?

Baker, how much of your perception of the black existence is based on your experience and how much of it is based on what you see in the media (which is almost totally controlled by white males)? Not sure how Brandi is expected to have the answer (over anyone else here).

Here’s my interpretation of your question: “Can we now shift the blame for the existence of this culture from whites to blacks?”

I’ll confess, I have nothing approaching a solution to the problem of institutional racism. It’s so ingrained that there is no easy way out of it.

The thing that I think a lot of people disregard when conversations about race take place is the notion of privilege. For someone in the majority, it is really difficult to wrap your brain around what it’s like to not be in the majority. That makes it difficult to posit an equitable solution. When people of color throw up their hands, shake their heads, and walk away saying “You just don’t get it,” this is what they’re talking about.

Getting all finger-pointy about how someone should raise their kids doesn’t help. Because nobody agrees on the best way to raise a kid. Telling those black people over there that if only they would raise their kids the way you do does not help them overcome the obstacles they face. And that’s painting all black parents with a very broad brush.

Would anyone who thinks — from afar — that absent parents don’t help their kids with school enough be willing to help a so-called absent parent out with child care?

Yes but the word privilege is problematic and insulting, since it discounts the struggles of the ‘privileged’ people. I will tell you that few people who have to get up and go to work every day feel terribly privileged. A better word is needed.

But the struggles of people in the majority are not the same as the struggles of people in the minority. The paradox of privilege is that it’s difficult for you to recognize when you have it.

If you’re struggling, it’s for a reason unrelated to the privelege you have.

Tell me what sort of struggle you’re referring to.

All right, let me go to the white liberal bingo board.

Ooh, I’m getting close to Bingo.

Lunch is unaware that he is an invisible knapsack lolcat.

Many people of the dominant culture work hard to attain middle class status, overcoming the burdens their upbringing has placed upon them. Telling us that we are ‘privileged’ is rude, since we have not exactly had a free ride. The word is the problem, I am not disputing the measurable advantage that being caucasian brings, just the connotations of the word choice. When a person from a background of poverty imagines privilege, swimming pools and mansions dance in their head, rather than an extra $.15 – .50 on the dollar earning differential.

I am not disputing the measurable advantage that being caucasian brings

What word would you suggest, lunch?

Seems like, as a privileged person, your definition of privelege is different.

So, yeah, what would you suggest?

I think I address how this isn’t a black person problem so much as it is a poor person problem, of which is disproportionate number of people are black. Unless the country figures out away to remedy the economic ills of the poor, this isn’t going to get fixed. It’s a problem inherent in America not just the black “community” (next week we’re having a potluck at the meeting!), so it isn’t really fair to put this on black people. It’s a problem w/ society in general.

I’m not trying to put this on any group, Brandi. I realize that it is a society-wide problem, but it just seems to me like it has morphed from a symptom of poverty to sort of a normal expectation within the black populace. Almost as if it isn’t shameful to abandon your family anymore. Where do you think the term ‘baby’s momma’ came from?
when more than 50% of black kids have no dad, I’m not so sure that we can attribute this solely to poverty anymore. You may be sure, but I’m not.

Of course I do not have any statistics to back this up, such stats have not been collected to my knowlege. And no, Erica, I did not get this perception from the media–I am interested is social science and I browse and read articles on race and crime and poverty.

Telling us that we are ‘privileged’ is rude, since we have not exactly had a free ride.

How is being privileged equal to saying you got a free ride. I’m privileged too (I said it earlier). I am fortunate to have grown up with a strong family who valued education and was never concerned about being without a home or if food would be on the table. I am fortunate to have gone to a good school(s) that let me attend good colleges and get a good job. I have internet access. I have a car. I have health insurance for when I get sick. I’m not fearful for my life for whatever reason.

I am privileged. It wasn’t a free ride but I am definitely privileged. Privileged is not the same thing as spoiled. Privileged simply means that you have acquired an advantage that not all people have. It’s not an insult its a fact of life. We’re all privileged in one way or another.

Erica, what you’re saying about white privilege reminds me of Chris Rock’s joke about “white people never wanting to be [him] (i.e. black) and [he's] black.” I’m assuming that’s what you mean about privilege?

ugh, the second “black” should read “rich.”

bonus points, elevator heels? Something passive that confers an advantage without your notice or even approval. Shit I don’t know what that could be.

I’m white.

I’m not trying to put this on any group, Brandi. I realize that it is a society-wide problem, but it just seems to me like it has morphed from a symptom of poverty to sort of a normal expectation within the black populace. Almost as if it isn’t shameful to abandon your family anymore. Where do you think the term ‘baby’s momma’ came from?

Dude, you asked me specifically about black people and their place, culture norms and whatnot in America and why stuff is so messed up. We totally were talking about one group and that’s fine.

1. Also, re-read that first sentence you wrote.
2. Reread the part of what you wrote that I made bold.
3. Please reconcile the two statements for me.

Erica, are you assuming that lunch! is priveleged simply because he/she is white? Is being white a privelege?

I think there are a lot of assumptions about single parents going on here. My mother was raised by a single parent for most of her life, and there is a good case to be made that, thanks to war and disease, having a single parent is not a historical abnormality, but has been the common experience of a good percentage of the population for as long as we can remember.

Stats about single parents don’t really hold up the idea that this is somehow essential to a social decline. Sure, it ain’t easy to be a single parent, but plenty of people do it just fine. Just because African Americans happen to have a slang term like “baby mama” isn’t necessarily evidence of some racially based social decay.

Erica, are you assuming that lunch! is priveleged simply because he/she is white? Is being white a privelege?

Yes.

There is no need to reconcile those statements. I realize the problem is broad, but that broadness is not what we were talking about; we were talking about a specific group of people.

we were talking about a specific group of people.

No we aren’t, Baker. We’re talking about a hugely diverse group of people that happens to get lumped together because of their skin color, and are likewise expected to take collective responsibility for the bahvior of others with the same skin color in a way that just isn’t the case for almost every other American.

@alie So the point of his joke is that white people perceive the disadvantages of being black to outweigh the advantages of being as rich as Chris Rock? Not the point I was trying to make, but it’s a good point.

And no, Erica, I did not get this perception from the media–I am interested is social science and I browse and read articles on race and crime and poverty. — Okay.

Erica, are you assuming that lunch! is priveleged simply because he/she is white? Is being white a privelege?

I’m not assuming anything. Both of those statements are true.

(Actually, I am assuming that lunch! is white since he hasn’t stated that anywhere that I’ve read.)

I disagree, Max.
As you just stated, I am white, and therefore priveleged. Talk about lumping.

Many people of the dominant culture work hard to attain middle class status, overcoming the burdens their upbringing has placed upon them. Telling us that we are ‘privileged’ is rude, since we have not exactly had a free ride.

I’m pretty sure that this is Lunch saying he’s white.

I don’t understand what you’re saying, Baker. Are you saying black people are not a diverse group, but some sort of monolith that a series of assumptions can safely be applied to? Or that white people are so spectacularly diverse that they don’t universally experience advantages that black people are denied? Because neither of these cases seems supportable to me.

There is no need to reconcile those statements. I realize the problem is broad, but that broadness is not what we were talking about; we were talking about a specific group of people.

Exactly, we’re talking about the specific group of people: the poor. My response to your question said that I the cultural norms of being poor are not being cemented into the “black community” because that doesn’t really exist. Instead, it is being cemented into the poor communities of which black people are a disproportionate part of. At the point that you’re making me pin it down to black people, in response to your original question about behaviors being cemented into black culture, I’d be contradicting my own thesis: that these behaviors are being cemented into poor cultures (for the multitude of reasons that I listed).

I’m pretty sure that this is Lunch saying he’s white.

Sorry, a little bit of rage dripped in my eye and I missed that part while skimming.

(I’m actually not that angry. And I don’t want to jinx it, but I’m rather impressed with the conversation so far. Not overtly hostile and mostly on topic on a difficult subject.)

I’m multiply privileged since I’m white, male, tall, educated and have a full head of hair. Over only one of those things have I had any real control, thank you hair club. Harrison Bergeron says “Hi!”

Damn you lunch, and your head of glorious hair.

Here’s a good example of white privilege:

When you sign up for dating websites in Minnesota that are geared at a general audience, you can pretty much be assured that the overwhelming majority of the people on the site wouldn’t rule out dating you based on your race, even though you are open to dating other races.

Lucky ducks.

I’m multiply privileged since I’m white, male, tall, educated and have a full head of hair.

Yup.

Until you get old.

I’ve gotten less white the older I have gotten. I’m a sort of a olive color now.

Erica, yeah, I thought it was a pretty thought provoking joke as well.

I’ve gotten less white the older I have gotten. I’m a sort of a olive color now.

All of you, or just the parts that have touched teucer’s mom?

All of you, or just the parts that have touched teucer’s mom?

She’s an equal opportunity employer.

Nope, the hair will stay with me till I die, it’s my birthright.

Much of what is ascribed as white privilege is simply strength in numbers. In situations where some semblance of democracy is present it evaporates and is replaced where and when the demographics don’t support it.

I just want to chime in here and emphasize a point that I think Brandi is trying to make…

Many Americans think that blacks are from single parent families, they drop out of school, do drugs, etc etc etc. They think this is part of black culture.

However, these attributes can be made of any poor family. It is an attribute of poverty level. But, it is being unfairly applied to blacks because of the number of blacks that are also poor.

Hence, if you meet Erica or Brandi, you will (possibly) make a certain set of assumptions that may or may not be valid. These assumptions aren’t made about most other groups. Most racism stems from these assumptions.

Asians are smart.
Whites can’t dance.
Jews are tight with money.

Stereotypes — with only tenuous links to reality. I am privileged.

Of course not. I recognize diversity in all groups of people. We don’t have to play the “just because some people do this doesn’t mean all of them do” game. We all know this. Race is often a line, or seperator for many type of discussions.

On the same hand, I would argue that it is untrue that white people universally experience any type of advantage over blacks. Many do, to be sure, but universally?

Bix, I agree with your assumption, and the stats I have read support that. I guess what I was trying to determine was whether you may have some additional insight into whether some of these problems are cultural rather than solely economical. I have heard many black leaders speak as if some of these problems were especially prominent to the black community, and was trying to have a real discussion around this.

I (perhaps wrongly)assumed that since you were black you may have a different perception.

On the same hand, I would argue that it is untrue that white people universally experience any type of advantage over blacks. Many do, to be sure, but universally?

Well, that may be true. I once knew a white guy who looked black. Security guards used to follow him around too.

Baker were you asking about the Cosby scolding?

Well, Cosby was right that people should encourage their kids to get an education and pull their pants up. But I don’t think that advice is exclusively needed in the black community.

Whatever the color, people should pull their damn drawers up!

huh?

Much of what is ascribed as white privilege is simply strength in numbers. In situations where some semblance of democracy is present it evaporates and is replaced where and when the demographics don’t support it.

Well, yeah. It’s called being in the majority.

Since when are hiring decisions subject to a democracy (not counting elections, but let’s not get into voter disenfranchisement)? Since when are salary decisions subject to a democracy?

On the same hand, I would argue that it is untrue that white people universally experience any type of advantage over blacks. Many do, to be sure, but universally?

Know how liberals seem to have an easier time on MNSpeak than conservatives when it comes to certain topics/discussions? Yeah, it’s kinda like that. Except on a greater scale and with more important reprecussions.

Know how liberals seem to have an easier time on MNSpeak than conservatives when it comes to certain topics/discussions?

They do? Don’t tell Kevin!

Much of what is ascribed as white privilege is simply strength in numbers. In situations where some semblance of democracy is present it evaporates and is replaced where and when the demographics don’t support it.

Wait, you didn’t think that I thought by just virtue of being white, you had superpower, did you?

Also, White Man’s Burden is a horrible movie but it pretty much illustrates your point about it not simply being about skin color but rather about who the majority is. Still, I wouldn’t recommend that you watch it because, as I said, it’s a horrible movie.

I roll the rule of law into democracy, so having recourse to courts would be a way to arbitrate these decisions.

I hate hiring/hr practices. They make everyone feel like the turd in the punch bowl. Minority candidates feel the stereotype threat and the encouragement statements seem like an “Irish need not apply” statement to those who don’t fit.

Salary decisions are strange too. How many people don’t negotiate for feer of being seen as too aggressive? Way too many. I learned that fresh out of college, that I could have earned so much more from my first employer. It is like there is some secret damn handbook that Robert Kiyosaki won’t let me see.

Still, not John Travolta’s worst.

They do? Don’t tell Kevin!

Kevin’s black?! And conservative?! Oh my stars, he’s really Alan Keyes!

* and yes, I know Kevin’s actual race but it brightens my day to pretend that he’s Alan Keyes.

Do you think I’d be privleged in Gary, Indiana? What about West Baltimore?

I agree in many cases, whites do have an advantage. But not universally.

Imagine a white person driving a brand new BMW Z3 Roadster. What assumptions do you make about that person? Perhaps works hard, has a good job, is moderately successful.

Same car with a Latino driving. What assumptions do you make now? What if they are black? Do your thoughts steer towards hard working, good job, etc? Or do you think they obtained it from nefarious means? Drug dealer perhaps?

Simply by changing the skin color of the driver changes perceptions. So, yes, ALL white people have advantages by being the majority.

You’d still have privige in those places. Just not in a dark alley. But, then, dark alleys used to be ruled by hobos, so they’ve sort of gotten better.

How useful is it to say “I’d be privileged if I moved to Gary, Indiana?”

Go overseas to a place where you can be a visible minority. You will experience some stereotyping. Some of it positive, and much not too positive at all. That is the closest you can come to it, but you get to go home.

In the car scenario, change the clothing, not just the race. The white guy could get away with some sloppy garb.

Do you think I’d be privleged in Gary, Indiana? What about West Baltimore?

I agree in many cases, whites do have an advantage. But not universally.

Um, no but it’s privilege that says that I we (myself included) don’t have to live in blighted areas. And we’re all privileged not to have to live in Indiana (the place where hopes and dreams go to die). I never said whites always had the advantage in every situation. But there are certain privileges that come with being white. Furthermore, being black in Gary isn’t an advantage because you’re. Still. In. Gary.

What factors contributed to people not having to live in Gary or being able to move out of Gary. Gary used to be booming back in the day and there were a lot more white people there. Where’d they all go? Where did all the black people who are doing well financially go? Why’d they leave? Of course there were various reasons for people leaving but it all boils down to: because they were able to. That’s privilege.

Do you think Daily Kos liberals have privilege on Little Green Footballs? Of course not. It depends where you are. However, I contend that there are a hell of a lot more places that white people have privilege than a black person does.

actaully, Doug, seeing the white guy in the beemer I usually make the assumption that he is a total douchebag that is shallow and mean to women.

I usually make the assumption that he is a total douchebag that is shallow and mean to women.

I think that is statistically verifiable.

Yeah, middle aged white guy + convertible = recent divorcee?

However, I contend that there are a hell of a lot more places that white people have privilege than a black person does.

So do I, and no one has argued otherwise.

That’s settled then? White privelege will be now known as majority privilege or majority head start… not available in some areas, sorry Indiana.

I’m glad we could settle this.

That’s settled then? White privelege will be now known as majority privilege or majority head start… not available in some areas, sorry Indiana.

No. It’s still white privilege because we were talking about the privilege that comes with being white in America. However, if you ever wander into Gary, feel free to stop any black people you see and point out that they have black privilege in Gary. I’m sure they’ll show you what that privilege is all about.

When abroad, be sure to point out your American privilege too. Foreigners eat the stuff up!

Peace out, y’all. I’ve got to get ready for tonight. Where I talk about white privilege. For reals.

… not available in some areas, sorry Indiana.

Oh, it’s still available in Indiana. In fact it’s probably much stronger in most of Indiana. Just not Gary.

I’m still picturing a young Ronnie Howard singing “Gary Indiana” You can’t stop me!

He who has the gold makes the rules. Who has the inside track to Harvard, the daughter of Denzel Washington or the son of a white coal miner? Does Harvard care what color they are?

Privilege can be bought.

I stated earlier that I am white. That’s the truth.

Whites can’t dance.

I represent that stereotype.

I represent that stereotype.

Don’t we all? lol

I’m probably not any better on the dance than Elaine Bennis. Nor could I ever be a Whirling Dervish AFAIK.

We conform. We contrast. We embrace.

Why can’t we leave it at that … without the need to continually confront one another in all aspects of life?

Privilege can be bought.

Yes, maz. It’s called “nouveau riche.”

The really, really rich people don’t need to prove anything. They drive Buicks; not Mercedes or Beemers. They can buy anything they want whenever they want … but they don’t. That’s why they’re rich.

We should all be so wise.

I am a much better dancer than Bixby.

I couldn’t even keep a rhythm to Sweet Caroline on Sunday.

Privilege can be bought.

I’d like to know if Denzel’s kid was ever pulled over for no reason or followed around in a store, because that’s what I think erica meant by white privilege.

Yo ill hopefully end this endless debate by saying if someone disrespects you for whatever reason just kick their ass.

They say living well is the best revenge. I’m not sure whoever said that tried arson, though.

Privilege can be bought.

I’d like to know if Denzel’s kid was ever pulled over for no reason or followed around in a store, because that’s what I think erica meant by white privilege.

Yes, that is what I meant. Though, to be fair, there are all sorts of privilege, including straight privilege and male privilege.

I think we should not confuse privilege with advantage. Privilege is when other people confer advantages on you based on assumptions or biases which they are quite often not conscious of at the time.

Capitalizing on opportunities that are available to you only because you have the money to spend on them is not privilege, in the sense that I’m talking about privilege.

I think it’s interesting that you want to make a disctinction between “privilege” and “advantage” and proceed to use “advantage” in your definition of “privilege.” And I have a hard time understanding why capitalizing on opportunities that are available to only you is distinct from having an advantage or a privilege. What privilege cannot be described as having special opportunities others don’t have?

I’d argue that there are various types of privilege. White privilege exists but so does celebrity privilege and other types. I would also say that privilege, in a general sense, is being able to have access to things that not everyone has access to. As I said before, I’m privileges that I have health care and don’t have to worry about what would happen if I get sick. I’m privileged because I am not worried about where my next meal will be from (Soupman?). Denzel’s kid is privileged in some aspects but she’s also disadvantaged in other aspects.

Yeah, okay, that was a little fuzzy.

Did anybody actually read the “unpacking the invisible knapsack” article that I linked? You should really do that.

Yes, I read that and several others months ago when I was working on a personal project on ‘Whiteness Studies.’ Weirdest little tangents would lead to some nasty racist works.

Regardless, all that author advocated was awareness and dialogue until some un-named systemic change occurs. What I wonder is how you counter such a passive/normative effect? Its like a default setting on the computer you just don’t bother about because you don’t know it could be any different.

All her points are well taken, though I don’t think there’s anything especially gained by using the word “privilege” to label those things.

all that author advocated was awareness and dialogue until some un-named systemic change occurs. What I wonder is how you counter such a passive/normative effect?

That’s the million dollar question. I have no idea what else to do but to continue to have these conversations. I still maintain that people don’t recognize the existence of their various privileges often enough.

though I don’t think there’s anything especially gained by using the word “privilege” to label those things

And again, what would you call it instead?