Secrets of the City

This is great, now let’s get moving on those wind farms.

It’s a bummer the batteries are made from some fairly nasty stuff, but we’ve long passed the point where we can bitch about every imperfection – having entered lesser-of-two-evils territory, I’m happy to see this moving forward. Battery technology will improve.

Wait a minute – What if I attach an electricity-generating turbine to the top of my plug-in hybrid? The car moves, the turbine spins, more electricity to move the car.

I can’t be the first one to think of this.

I wasn’t the first one to think of it.

It’s a good move. We worked closely with Mayor Rybak to clean up the city’s fleet and have had some recent communications with the Hecker folks.

Don’t count out corn ethanol just yet, vlado.

Also, I’m looking forward to the Volt, a new type of hybrid that will be plug-in ready straight from the factory and can operate on E85 as well as regular unleaded.

The drag that is caused by the turbine negates the amount of electricity it would create… Any power generated by the motor would be lessened by anything that would generate said electricity. It is pretty much a negative effect on any charging scheme.

According to some green auto blogs, the grille fans in the Mitsubishi i MiEV are for “energy capture during deceleration.” Does that make more sense?

Yes. During deceleration, increased drag is a bonus. However, the solar panels would completely work.

I heard that in Europe, “gas stations” will swap batteries with you to help you quickly continue on your way (for a fee of course). This is another alternative to extending the range of your electric car.

The conversion is pretty pricey: $10,000.

That still buys a lot of gas.

Bob:

Old and busted: corn
New Hotness: algae

miller: sadly, would violate laws of thermodynamics.

JeffK: Got a diesel? If the answer is no, than algae is just the stuff that makes the lakes green in the summertime.

Great idea, algae biodiesel. I saw a vehicle running on it at a converence in Orlando earlier this year. Cool idea. I am also aware of local efforts to make the stuff.

As with cellulosic ethanol, make it commercial viable with the first generation biofuels, and you’ve got something. Otherwise, all hat and no cattle, as they say down in Texas…

Re: Batteries are Bad

The quality of the article was kinda poor.

NiCd batteries – yes Cd is no good for the environment, recycling is a must
NimH batteries – not so bad, recycling still a good idea
Li-ion batteries- Li is not a heavy metal so no serious problems, still good idea to recycle

The article needs more details. Where can I go to buy this conversion?? What batteries will I get? Is there a warranty on these batteries?

And this technology actually will improve air quality since it will create Zero Emission Vehicles, as opposed to the bogus ethanol shit.

Oh, and no dead zones and farm runoff either.

Sure battery manufacture uses chemicals etc. but if they are made in a legit company the toxic stuff should be well regulated (not sure this would be the case in China).

Very exciting, I can see myself buying one of these.

Oh oh,

Also if you get your electricity from Excel’s Windsource program, and then you use this car, you are pretty much zero emissions vehicle.

Woo-Hoo, this is great.

I will still try to bike whenever possible though, no point in lugging around a multi-ton piece of metal with you everywhere.

Anyway, if anyone knows about the practical details of this or where the company is so I can go visit it, please do tell.

Re: Bob’s Brazilian Biofuel

Yeah, great alternative. Then we can drive our SUVs guilt free. The only consequence would be the destruction of the amazon rainforest there.

Sounds like a great next-gen alternative to fuel.

Let’s face it, land-based biofuels are a disaster.

BTW, I hate news like this. Tells you about something awesome, but doesn’t mention at all how one can get it?

WTF is the point then?? Tell me where to go buy this shit!!

I drive my suv guilt-free now.

Well then you’re probably not the target market for these sorts of products, maz.

It’s called Google Search, vlad.

This article in the Business Journal has the details you want.

Anything else you want? milk and cookies?

Also, if you have been paying attention, I have never advocated imported ethanol from Brazil. I link, you decide.

vlado4, I think the tee-vee told me that they were doing the conversions at a Denny Hecker dealership in Inver Grove Heights.

(or you could have asked Brazillian Bob)

…also, sugar cane ethanol is a “first-generation” biofuel. However, you are correct that we have some protections about land use for biofuels in the USA, Brazil does not. That IS reason for concern, as the rainforest is vital in many ways.

Is your suv a corn-burner, maz?

“Brazilian Bob” = ouch! Let the waxing jokes wax forth.

yeah, I apologize to everyone for the images that phrase created.

Anyway, does it make sense to spend 10k on this?

Tell me where to go buy this shit!!

Companies buy advertising to tell you that.

I don’t think I want news organizations schilling (or at least as little as possible) for one business or another.

Bob, I’ll take cookies if you’re handing them out.

Anyway, does it make sense to spend 10k on this?

Spaceman:

Two identical sweaters on the store rack. One you are certain comes from a company that uses child labor overseas. Call it sweater #1. Sweater #2 comes from a local shop in town. Sweater #2 cost $5 more than sweater #1.

Which sweater would you buy?

Not all purchasing decisions come from the wallet. Some come from the heart, or the head. Investing in a plug-in hybrid is investing in a new type of car that has the potential to use less fuel and pollute less. How much are you willing to pay for this? It’s an individual choice.

Yeah, too bad Denny Hecker is sort of evil. You know with predatory lending and the like. Ugh.

And a general question, where do you plug in your car if you don’t have a house with outdoor electric? We have a parking lot, so could we even use this, or would there be electrical stations to fill up at?

A plug-in hybrid might not be for you, then kc. However, our old apartment in Columbia Heights had outdoor outlets for engine block heaters (which we both had and needed!) that could do the same thing.

What’s Denny Hecker guilty of, besides being annoying?

We wouldn’t covert our 14 year old car anyhow. Unless the conversion came with a/c. We could really use a/c.

About 10 years ago he offered to make me his next wife while still married to his current at the time. Granted he had been drinking heavily at a wedding, but the bride who’s husband worked for him, said he brought me up again later in the week to her husband. Sounds like an awesome guy to me.

Well, did the local shop in town use child labor? Because in that case I’d buy the local one, you know, to support the neighborhood children.

I’m well-aware there’s more to it than the wallet. But “it’s an individual choice” line is the same one used to justify those one ton suvs carrying one passenger –so that doesn’t really cut it. “Investing” sounds nice, but if you are “investing” in a car — any car — you are a poor investor. On the other hand, if one wants to invest in the environment, is there a better use for that 10k?

Denny loves the ladies.

You know, I googled and couldn’t find anything specific, but I remember one of the local advocacy groups were doing a campaign against him because he prays on the poor with insane loan rates. Poor people need cars, he has cars, he will get you car at 15% or something.

Maybe I made it all up, I can’t find it online, but I don’t think I did.

Well, before we trash a local business man or call him evil, maybe some facts to go by would be useful.

So far, we have one actionable offense.

Got a diesel?

Well, no, but it’s not exactly like this is exotic technology. Let’s put it this way: if (for the sake of argument) the claims about algae were true (I can’t find yesterday’s strib article) – which they may not be – then there would be way more advantage filling existing diesels, particularly semi-trucks, with the stuff, than screwing around trying to glean a 10% gain in efficiency off of corn, if we’re even that lucky.

But “it’s an individual choice” line is the same one used to justify those one ton suvs carrying one passenger

True, but that doesn’t make it any less valid.

On the other hand, if one wants to invest in the environment, is there a better use for that 10k?

A very good question.

Consider this as you ponder an answer: the single largest source of air pollution (and a major greenhouse gas source) in Minnesota is vehicle exhaust. A plug-in hybrid has zero emissions while running on battery power. If you want the comfort and convenience of a car, but the emissions of bicycle, this might be a good investment for you.

His horrible adds on city buses and TV are enough to make me never buy a car from him.

Then again, I may have to bite the bullet if he really has PHEVs.

I wonder if I can buy a used prius and convert it….

Hmm…

Bob, do you have an idea of how much $$ would be saved since electricicty is much cheaper than gas?

“then there would be way more advantage filling existing diesels, particularly semi-trucks, with the stuff, “

I agree 100%. I have never been against second generation biofuels. I’m all for them. However, I sometimes have to remind folks that these new options (unlike first gen biofuels) are not yet available for people to use, and could have drawbacks and challenges we don’t know yet.

PS: Now you are confusing your feedstocks. Biodiesel has nothing to do with corn. Here in MN, it’s made largely from soybeans and animal fats.

Doesn’t anybody read our website?

If hitting on mb21 makes you evil….

…I don’t wanna be right!

Bob, do you have an idea of how much $$ would be saved since electricicty is much cheaper than gas?

No, but I’ll bet the Mayor’s office has crunched the numbers (they are installing solar panels just for this purpose, BTW). I’ll ask my friend Jeremy Hanson for an answer.

Note also the convertion only works on certain models of the Prius, so you had best call before you buy a used one.

Tee hee… oh you boys. I’m blushing.

Keep in mind I was a young naive 18 yr old at the time. Of course, not sure that would stop you anyways…

Via MinnPost:

“The EIA said that if all cars would get 75 mpg like Rybak’s plug-in, the United States would save nearly 100 billion gallons of fuel every year, or 73 percent below current levels.”

As for the cost of the electricty, I don’t think it will be that much. In fact, utilities encourage more use at night, during off-hours. Hey, PwrGeek! We need you here…

Wouldn’t you have to drive about 125,000 miles just to make up the initial $10k? (without even factoring electricity costs)

Did you factor in the state grant, which would offset 30% of the cost, spaceman?

You don’t trust this guy?

I’m shocked!

More googling…

This from Strib:
In the past few years, the Hecker and Walser automobile groups ran into trouble over certain credit practices and under consent agreements must provide specific notices to customers and, unless customers decline, tape record certain sales presentations.

I’ve also found some personal stories on blogs, but not real info.

No, because someone is paying for that grant.

I did like this line from the MinnPost article though: Plug-in conversion kits for gas-electric hybrids are expected to be available at a much lower cost in the near future.

Yeah it seems that one would have to drive ~70k miles to make up the $7000 (government grant included).

That is not too great, but as this technology spreads, it may become cheaper.

I think the key is to have good warranty and recycling programs with the batteries. Perhaps leasing the batteries would be a good choice.

I am not switching cars until there is a PHEV option!!

Don’t mind driving my Saab 900 for another 20 years.

The Minnesota taxpayer is paying for the grant, spaceman. In other words, we have all invested in this technology.

My point exactly.

Rybak: “You know, if every car would just get 10 more miles more per gallon, it’d go far in reducing oil imports,” said Rybak as he guided his car through mid-day city traffic. “We’re told that for that to happen it’d take some far-out new technology, but what about this right here?”

The EIA has the national average at 20.4 mpg — I don’t know if that is just consumer or commercial too, but that is horrible. Here’s what I’ll advocate for: buy a smaller car, drive it slower, keep it in good working order, and 30mpg is yours — free. Plus you saved another 5k-10k by buying a smaller car. Take that 15k and and buy a couple acres of corn and take it out of production.

On the other hand, if one wants to invest in the environment, is there a better use for that 10k?

I’m all about optimizing environmental efforts, but there comes a point when this is just stalling. There’s a contingency that for some confounding reason wants to trick us into going round and round indefinitely while we run out of time. We know emissions-free cars are a huge step so let’s take it.

Bob: duly noted. And I know you like to remind us that the next generation isn’t here yet, but the current generation is operating at a significant capacity and is doing us little to no good, so I think it’s time to take the next step, no? I want to talk about what the damned holdup is, and maybe the half of it is all the time spent talking about how it’s not here yet. I mean, Jebuz, they’re doing it in Brazil. It’s plants, not rocket science.

As for the cost of the electricty, I don’t think it will be that much. In fact, utilities encourage more use at night, during off-hours. Hey, PwrGeek! We need you here…

I have no idea what the difference would be. But according to wikipedia, it costs about $0.03 per mile. And California estimates it will cost less than one-fourth than fueling by gasoline.

That seems about right. And even if electric prices go way up in the next several years (because of either a carbon tax or move to nuclear, renewable and other more expensive fuel sources to avoid carbon) it still will be more economical than standard gasoline.

One thing we’re working on is trying to figure out the impact of what the peak will be if people start using hybrids all the time…for example, peak electric demand generally happens when people get home from work (turn the AC up, turn the TV on, start cooking dinner, etc). Add to that peak a bunch of people plugging in their cars…could really screw up the electric system if it’s not prepared for. What would be better is if there were timers so that if people didn’t need it charged right away, they could wait to charge it at night when demand is lowest.

Bob, where the hell are my cookies?

-The Artist Formerly Known as PwrGeek.

What would be better is if there were timers so that if people didn’t need it charged right away, they could wait to charge it at night when demand is lowest.
They already have those shut-off switches for peak times installed in many homes, I believe.

lunch, not very many at all, actually.

That’s a shame, the energy company gives you a deal, and all you have to do is endure. Bunch of whiners I tell you…

Part of the problem with peaking is that it costs more to produce energy at peak times (and transmit it) but people don’t generally see that when they’re using more energy, it’s costing everyone more (because the costs are passed on eventually). There are some studies and pilot projects going on but they’re fairly limited. I know Xcel is working on a Smart Grid pilot in Boulder but I think it’s in the very initial stages right now.

I think the tee-vee told me that they were doing the conversions at a Denny Hecker dealership in Inver Grove Heights.

Noooooo!

Damn you, Denny Hecker.

Speaking of Denny Hecker, I’m kind of bummed he has new ads where he almost looks human. His ads where he was smiling the way someone smiles when there’s a gun pointed at their head was much funnier.

One question I saw in the Strib comments is one I haven’t noticed the answer to…was RT’s car’s conversion on the taxpayer dime, or did he do it out of his own pocket?

With MN farmland selling for an average of $2,849 an acre, you can count on buying about five acres of cornfield with your $15k, spaceman. Enjoy your little piece if the prairie.

Jeff, the holdup is cost. Ethanol is more efficent and cheaper to make from sugar cane than corn. Likewise, it is more efficent and cheaper to make ethanol out of corn than switchgrass or other cellulosic feedstocks.

We know how to make ethanol aout of almost any plant matter. We DON’T know how to make cellulosic ethanol as cheaply and efficiently as with corn. If someone can figure this out, they are going to be very, very rich….

Cool, thanks! Now can you do me a favor and figure out how much emissions and other pollutants are reduced by instead practicing intensive rotational grazing — by removing both the tractors and petro-based inputs from the field – which will also strengthen the land and produce healthier food for us? Probably not much with 5 acres, but maybe I can get a state grant.

You’re just going to grow pot on those five acres, aren’t you? I don’t think you can get a state grant for that crop…

Couldn’t you call it “hemp” and or say it’s for medicinal purposes? Or is that CA only?

grow hops, their perrenials.

It has its supporters here, too, Cat.

their = they’re

Hmm, now that you mention it, hops are a relative to pot . . . so what I’ve deduced from this conversation is that the best use of that 10k for the environment is to buy beer.

Buy, make, sell whatever you can do to promote the environment through beer, do it.

oops, crossed comments with lunch . guess we’re on the same page, anyway

Yes, and you can make a killing selling them to local breweries at today’s prices. Lunch!, you’re a genius!

Forgive the earlier snark, spaceman, I want to buy a share of your five acre organic hops farm!!!

so what I’ve deduced from this conversation is that the best use of that 10k for the environment is to buy beer.

One way or another, it all comes back to ethanol…

I would have considered a share bob, but you had to go and sneak that ethanol comment in there. Deal’s off.

(too bad hops take about three years to get into production — and by then everyone will have the same idea and deflate prices to all time lows)

Boo! Well, it’s been a fun chat anyhow. You are probably right about the hops, too.

Check out this headline, ethanol haters! You just couldn’t make stuff like this up. Even in The Onion.

(too bad hops take about three years to get into production — and by then everyone will have the same idea and deflate prices to all time lows)
They’re all chasing alpha(acids), so if you grew aroma/flavor hops you would be fine. If you grew organic aroma hops, you would be wealthy. Problem is that the fox guarding the henhouse rule(thanks USDA!) for organic beer doesn’t require the hops to be organic.

Might do just as well marketing the ‘locally grown’ angle anyway.

and if you could make ethanol out of pot…sorry, I forgot what I was saying.

The topic of buying land for conservation purposes deserves its own thread!!!

Very interested in this topic, as I believe that is an easy way to make a big difference. I would love to buy some corn farmland and turn it into native prarie.

I also heard that it is possible to do that and the state will drop property taxes because the land is being used for conservation. Very interesting concept.

I am against taking prime farm land out of cultivation(either for development or conservation), but marginal land should only be used when needed. Check out New England. They spent a century and change deforesting it to farm, now the hills and many of the valleys have returned to forest, and it only took a couple decades for that to happen.

True. But it’s a different kind of forest than the old-growth forest that was there before. Same story here in Minnesota.

Actually, converting farmland back to “native prarie” is not as easy as you might think. I have been raising native forbs and grasses in a corner of my lot for 15 years, and it takes a lot of work to try to re-establish something even halfway near a native prarie. Its a much more complex eco-system then we knew when we plowed it up.

my point above, lunch, was that the same land that was being cultivated –essentially stripped — with corn for feed could be utilized much the same (as feed) but without the petro inputs.

complex, but do-able, wouldn’t you agree, bob?

Yeah, three pasture systems for grazing multiple herd types are a great way to get the most out of uncultivated pasture.

I also heard that it is possible to do that and the state will drop property taxes because the land is being used for conservation.

I think my dad is taking advantage of that program. He owns land in northern MN that has primarily been used for hunting. But he has rented it out for cattle grazing during past summers. We always wondered if the cattle had an effect on the deer population. Now that he’s part of the program, the tax savings almost makes up for the rent that he used to take in. Plus, more natural deer habitat. Plus, no dealing with the ranchers.

Sure. But how do you make a living as a prarie farmer, and who can live on what you grow there?

Umm yeah, here is the status of our old-growths:

Pretty sad situation if you ask me. Almost completely destroyed. Replaced by nasty farming.

If MN farming was properly done, there should be no contamination of our waters. The current situation is inexcusable.

Also I want to see some fully restored prarie in large portion. Something akin to the BWCAW where everything is wild. It should include prarie dogs, Bison and other native prarie things!

From the Strib article:

The lithium ion batteries are rechargeable only via a standard electrical outlet.

So the batteries it would seem are Li-ion. So the report by MPR was total trash as they had a physics prof. talking about how Cadmium is a bad byproduct. WTF is a physics prof doing talking about this anyway?? An engineer needs to be addressing this.

AFAIK, there is no Cadmium in Li-ion batteries, in NiCd batteries maybe, but not Li-ion.

Idiot reporting on MPR’s part.

Just shows how detached everyone in the general society is from technical aspects and details.

Run your graphs against population vlad. People have to eat, and the green revolution in agriculture has made overweight people more prevalent globally than the malnourished. Now is a good time to reevaluate the other costs of farming the way we do. A lot of the ‘dirty’ practices decried are also the reason why we do not have to spend the majority of our incomes on food. The key is to maintain current levels of production while decreasing the harmful side effects.

vlad, physicists know everything.

But actually I don’t know why they talked to him, I thought he worked in biophysics.

I learned an interesting statistic while schooling in Vermont, oh, so many years ago. In the 19th century, 75% of Vermont’s land was arable. But as agriculture became less and less important to the state’s economy (as settlers moved West), the state is now back to 75% forest. Of course, it helps that Vermont’s largest city is smaller than Bloomington.

Re: Physicists

Uhh I have taken my share of physics classes at the UMN and have heard this so many times:

“This is how it works theoretically, I don’t care how it is implemented at all, that is for engineers to figure out.”

Yeah, not sure why they talked to him, and he gave a fairly dumb statement. Emberassement on both MPR and the Physicist’s part.

From UMN website:

“CEO of small company (Sysmed Inc.) involved in the development of high gradient small electrostatic accelerators. CFO of small company (Spectrameasure Inc.) involved in medical instrumentation for pulmonary function analysis. Collaboration in extending the solar work of the Birmingham UK BISON organization to measurements of stellar properties. Collaboration with the PET group at the Mayo Clinic Rochester Minn on developing novel PET isotope complexes.”

WTF? This prof is bizzaro. How do you manage to be a CEO, CFO and a physics research professor.

Its stuff like this that makes me wonder about the UMN.

There was quite a debate last session wither adopting the California Air Resources Board emissions standards in Minnesota would hinder the state’s use of biofuels and perhaps even limit the sales of some sorts of vehicles.

Now there is concern that CARB regulations could slow progress on plug-in hybrid vehicles. Deets here, via AutoBlog Green.

Darn tootin’. That was one of many concerns. But that didn’t stop them from trying to sneak through $134,000 to get the ball rolling. Oh, busted!