Secrets of the City

“Because 500 people still are on the waiting list, applicants are expected to wait anywhere from one to five years before they reach the top of the list.”

Wow.

By the time you get to the top of the list, you’ve forgotten that you ever signed up.

This is great news. My best friend needs this desperately.

While the system is in need of a lot more vouchers, the list isn’t just a first come first serve list, which is good. It allows people with very low incomes, homeless people, and disabled folks to move ahead of those who are already in a home that they can (sort of) afford.

Am i missing something? why would a single person who makes 43,000 per year need help paying rent?

nayana, tell us about your friend.

They don’t. It is just a technicality. It has to do with the area’s median wage. The person can apply and get on the list, but they will never get a subsidy because they will be deemed the least needy and will stay at the bottom of the list. That’s why the prioritization that goes on is great, it makes sure the most needy people get the subsidy.

He is on disability. He receives $640 per month. His rent and utilities add up to $400… and that’s only because he shares a residence. He is unable to work because of a mental illness… and he’s barely scraping by right now.

He’d like to have his own place. He did when he lived in a different state… Minnesota has not been as welcoming.

I was wondering that, too, since I dont’ typically think I should qualify for such things.

that’s too bad, nayana.
i remember here a long time ago, someone here was getting subsidies from the gov’t so they could live downtown in a condo. Some loophole they were exploiting.
They were paying 800, and relying on the giovernment to cover the rest, so they could live in style. that made me angry.

I tend to think that anyone who even tries to get on the list while making 43,000 should be ashamed of themselves.
In the case of your friend, that is a very different story…

Yeah, he’s really in need. It’s hard that he’s going to have to wait so long, even if he does get on the list.

BTW he really does make an effort to work… Just with his mental illness, he can’t really handle more than about 10 hours per week.

nayana,
Has he thought about moving to St Paul? I remember my ex telling me that an old gf of his moved there because vouchers were easier to get because the list was shorter? I’m not 100% sure about that, but if he has a case worker, maybe he can find out.

He lives in St Anthony. He’s working with Vocational Rehab Services to get vouchers anywhere possible…

Am i missing something? why would a single person who makes 43,000 per year need help paying rent?

If you’ve got significant medical issues, $43,000/yr won’t go very far if you don’t have a great insurance plan.

It’s easy to think that anyone (single) who is making $43K/year should be fine, but without knowing a person’s situation, it’s not really our call to make.

Housing programs are typically based on either city, country and I believe, sometimes metro area median incomes. The Twin Cities just happen to have a fairly high median income.

And the kid who was inquiring about subsidized housing here not long ago, wasn’t looking for a loophole, it’s an actual, legitimate program. Most multi-housing developers rely on local and/or federal funding when building. In exchange for those funds, a certain percentage of the housing built must be designated “affordable.”

The programs, while not immune to abuse, are good to have. They are not always the most accessable though which bothers me. For someone who is living on the margins, the hoops that they have to jump through can be daunting.

I need a pass this week on all spelling and grammar errors? Too many to go back and correct. Ugh!

43k is just such a strange cutoff number. Also, if you make 43k a year and have bad insurance, is that normal? While everyone’s situations vary, if you make 43k a year and need these vouchers then generally I’d say that ur doin it rong. Even if you have massive student loan debt.

I imagine you could make 43k as a “consultant” or independent contractor, small business owner, etc. pretty easily, depending on your line of work, and not having ANY insurance, as you would be buying on an individual policy, rather than getting a group policy.

We also just passed $30 million for supportive housing.

Yeah, they usually don’t look at “normal debt.” To mnblrmkr’s point, the issues are typically health related.

Remember that the guidelines are that the most you can make is $43K, but I think the article said that the average income of the recipients is $12K — which means the $43K peeps are never going to see a voucher unless there are some serious circumstances that would push that person to the top.

Plus, if the program is based on someone making less than 80% of the median income, there are some peeps making a sweet living.

Cat, I’m not sure that that is legitimate.
It’s great it results in affordfable housing, but if someone is seriously paying 1200 for a trendy place to live, and relying on the government to pay 25% of that, why should these people choose somewhere cheaper to live, and pay for it all themselves?
How is that fair to those who pay for part of their housing through taxes?

David, I think the person you’re thinking about gets rent control, which, IIRC, is not susidized by the government, but where the landlord agrees to lower the tenant’s rent so that it equals 30% of thier income should the renter qualify. In turn for allowing a certain number of their units to be rent controlled for affordable housing requirements, the landlord probably gets some sort of tax break.

And it’s not really a loophole, it’s open to anyone who qualifies based on income and developer participation.

Even if a few people make $43k use the vouchers. I just think that’s a bit too high a cut off. Live in a less nice place.

David: Is this the post you’re talking about?

The programs are legitimate. The reasons why people want to take advantage of them may not be.

There are properties in which the market rents run $1,500+/month, but the subsidized rents are set lower so maybe in that way, I get what you’re saying about the legitimacy of the program.

As with many gov’t programs, they are not perfect, but the help they provide outweight the very few that abuse it.

And even if they do make $43,000/year, they still have to put 30% of their income toward their rent with a voucher. The voucher just picks up the rest. That’s $12,900 (if I did my math right) that they have to pay, more than $1000 a month. And they have to be in market value one bedroom apartments. That means no one making $43k a year is really getting subsidy unless they have some serious deductions on their income, and only a few apply, like medical bills.

So, settle down everyone. This program works for the poorest people. Quit getting your panties in a bunch.

Most multi-housing developers rely on local and/or federal funding when building. In exchange for those funds, a certain percentage of the housing built must be designated “affordable.”

I love to pay taxes so dead beats can be subsidized and rich developers can line their pockets. The whole thing is a scam.

It’s great it results in affordfable housing, but if someone is seriously paying 1200 for a trendy place to live, and relying on the government to pay 25% of that, why should these people choose somewhere cheaper to live, and pay for it all themselves?
How is that fair to those who pay for part of their housing through taxes?

It is not fair. The middle pays and the rest collect. Affordable housing is a developers best friend to scam the system. Who do you think sits on the board of the bullshit non-profits that fund these things, ah the developers and the friends of the met council. vouchers are a crock of crap.

You didn’t read anything at all before you commented, did you, Swandog?

Swandog: It’s a Minneapolis program so you’re damn shitty taxes aren’t going to any of this.

And to sound like a damn freakin’ broken record, the percentage of your taxes that go to programs like these is so minimal that your constant bitching about them is adding faster than the taxes you pay.

Yes, because an 80 year old woman living on $800 a month for social security living in a shitty Section 8 apartment is a real effing deadbeat. Dick.

Have you heard the one about the Cadillac-driving welfare queen?

With any government assistance, there are bound to be yahoos who take advantage of and abuse the program. However, the vast majority of folks who use it actually need the resource.

David, the Section 8 program caps the amount of rent that can be paid so you can’t use a voucher to pay down exhorbitant rent. In Minneapolis, the maximum rent (including utilities, heat, etc.) would be $617 for a studio, $748 for a one-bedroom, $933 for a two-bedroom, etc. The household (voucher holder) would pay a portion of their income (30%) for rent and the government would pay the difference.

If you do the math, the person with an income of $43k has no use for the program:
Income= $43k
Affordable monthly rent (paying 30% of income)= $1,074
Max rent amount allowed under Section 8= $748
Renters portion = $748
Govt portion = $0

Swandog, my friend with a mental illness living on $640 a month is not a deadbeat. He has problems you’ll never understand.

Try to have some sensitivity, please.

I just think they need to drop the income requirement to a bunch less than 43k because there are plenty of places in Minneapolis city limits for a lot under 1000 dollars where a SINGLE person can live.

The flaw in the argument that someone could have high medical bills and be making 43k is that a single person making 65k could have even higher medical bills than the 43k person, leaving him/her with even less than the 43k person to spend on rent. Should s/he get a subsidy too? If you say no, why? If astronomical medical bills can be a criterion for receiving the subsidy, then I think the income restriction in those circumstances should be lifted entirely and they should just consider the medical expenses relative to one’s income.

Yes, because an 80 year old woman living on $800 a month for social security living in a shitty Section 8 apartment is a real effing deadbeat. Dick.

It is always the extream. How many old women on section eight that live on $800 a month are their. Why did they not save for thier retirment vs count on the government to take care of them. Seems to be a weak argument. Where does it stop, does the government take car of every need of every person?

Great, mpls won’t come to the state next year with their had out? Every penny adds to the tax burden of all of us that pay taxes. I am not for throwing out people into the street but it seeems to me that this is just one more redundent program overlapping another.

Fuck you swandog.

my grandmother lived in section 8 on $800 a month. She dropped out of high school to take care of her family. My grandfather, also a high school drop out who went to WWII and Korea instead of finishing, worked in a factory until he had kidney failure at age 45. My grandmother, who never worked a day after she had her first child, had to go back to work. Not a lot of good jobs for forty-something high school drop outs. The ones there are, you don’t get retirement.

Oh, and they had a 10 year old kid, so while my grandfather collected his small amount of social security, my grandma worked and they all took food stamps.

My grandma worked in a shitty factory until she was 65 years old. She didn’t get retirement, she did the best she could to stay afloat. After retirement, she went into section 8 housing in a 55+ building.

So fuck you, swandog, for saying my grandmother, who died a couple weeks ago, should have been on the streets.

And if you think she is the only one, get a hold of the welfare rolls. See who is really on “welfare” especially food stamps and medical. See how many section 8 55+ homes there are. I’ll tell you that there are A LOT more elderly on these programs than you will ever imagine.

I’m sorry for your grandmother but I still don’t want to pay for her food and rent. Is that bad?

Gosh, and I don’t want to pay for the police when they’re dealing with crimes in your neighborhood, or the fire department when your house burns down, or education, because I don’t have children, or roads, because I don’t drive, or anything that doesn’t directly and obviously fulfill my instant and short-sighted selfish interests. Does that make me bad?

I am not for throwing out people into the street but it seeems to me that this is just one more redundent program overlapping another.

But virtually every single comment you’ve ever made here advocates policies that would result in exactly that.

Please trust me friend, your not paying for anything of mine

kc: Sorry to hear about your grandma.

louaphil: so you didn’t go to school and you don’t live in a home/apartment in a city/town/village and you have your own well to collect rain water to use for drinking, bathing, cooking, etc. and you live solely on energy you have created, or by candlelight, and you don’t drive or use public transportation to move around or if you walk/bike, you only walk/bike on your property because you work from home and your internet connection is somehow, miraculously, rigged to connect on its own.

Because all of these services are taxed and therefore, we are paying for you to exist in this country.

Well louaphil, I am sure everyone that knows you would agree not to cross the street to piss on you if you were afire…so it all works out for everybody.

louaphil, seriously, have you made any attempt at discussion that isn’t a weak joke or a deliberate provocation? I’m getting a strong whiff of troll off you. Feel free to disabuse me of this, but so far you’re contributions seem limited to wandering in late at night and making extremely cruel jokes.

So why should any of us take you seriously?

You people are the biggest bleeding heart puds. Why don’t you vote for Al Franken for U.S. Comedian. The public dole is what made America great.

Wow. Such an angry little boy.

“The public dole is what made America great.”

That may be streching it a bit, buddy, but they DO sell very tasty pineapple.

Or did you mean Bob Dole? He’s okay, too, I guess. You know, I know it, and the American people know it…

I visited the Dole Plantation in Hawaii, does that count?

We’re voting for comedians now? Sweet!

If America voted for its comedians the same way it votes for its presidents, we may get stuck with Carrot Top as U.S. Comedian.

Why did they not save for thier retirment vs count on the government to take care of them. Seems to be a weak argument. Where does it stop, does the government take car of every need of every person?

Gosh, swandog, I hope you’ve planned to never get cancer, break your hip, get diabetes, have to take more than 3 perscribed medications, get alzheimers, or live past age 75 and have to go into the nursing home, both of which can decimate a retiree’s savings in just a few short years. But, gee, that NEVER happens to people, especially now that we’re living well into their 90’s. And surely you will make sure that you plan for that, won’t you? I hope you let your kids know that they’ll be taking you in when your savings are no longer enough to live on and that they’re OK with that. I’m curious that, when the time comes, should you need a helping hand from the government, would you take it, or just suck it up and live on the street when you’re 85 years old?

It just fucking amazes me that the people in our society that deserve the most sympathy (the elderly and children) get the fucking least.

FYI- 657,000 elderly people on Medical Assistance in Minnesota in 2006. And that’s not medicare. I would guess another 50,000+ were eligible.

Living in a society, with other people, means that at some point you will be expected to watch out for your neighbor. That’s really what these public programs are. The vast majority of people who use them just DO NOT have any other choice.

An absolute capitalist society, with no socialist element whatsoever, cannot function. That’s because not everyone CAN work. Not everyone is strong, healthy, and able. It is idealistic and naive to think that everyone can just take care of him/herself.

Anyone who subscribes to the “every man for himself” ideal will never truly achieve that until they move to an isolated shack in the wilderness, shoot, clean, and cook their own food, and relieve themselves in the woods (or an outhouse if they’re especially industrious).

And that, swandog and louaphil, is what I would invite the two of you to do. Go live in your shacks and let us have our society.

My grandma worked in a shitty factory until she was 65 years old. She didn’t get retirement, she did the best she could to stay afloat. After retirement, she went into section 8 housing in a 55+ building.

Well my grandpa worked in a mill and my grandma was a lunch lady. The managed just fine. If your grandpa was working in a factory at that time would he not have been in a union just wondering. Yes I do feel for your grandma but come on, we can not continue to pay for every need of every person. My grandparents saved retired and would never I mean never accept a handout, just an ethic I guess. This argument that city police services, fire services are the same as welfare is ridiculous. It is not the same it provides the greatest good for the greatest number of people and those are the people they pay for them, I the majority. The majority does not owe every person in this country anything. You may think so I do not but we have elections to determine who is correct or not.

Gosh, swandog, I hope you’ve planned to never get cancer, break your hip, get diabetes, have to take more than 3 prescribed medications, get alzheimers, or live past age 75 and have to go into the nursing home, both of which can decimate a retiree’s savings in just a few short years. But, gee, that NEVER happens to people, especially now that we’re living well into their 90’s. And surely you will make sure that you plan for that, won’t you? I hope you let your kids know that they’ll be taking you in when your savings are no longer enough to live on and that they’re OK with that. I’m curious that, when the time comes, should you need a helping hand from the government, would you take it, or just suck it up and live on the street when you’re 85 years old?

It is evident and prove in this country that people do not save enough for retirement. When bad things do happen they feel that they are the victim and place the burden on the society for their lack of planning. What you do is invest, save and purchase insurance that is the responsible thing to do, if you do not do this bad things will happen. People seem to think that they can just spend beyond their means and government will provide for them, well that will not work in the long run. People have unlimited needs in a world of limited resources. I would not take money from the government other than what I have paid in, just an ethic I have. By the way you can give all you want but the well is running dry and we are going to globally go into a deep recession good luck paying for every need of every person it won’t and can’t happen. Life is a tough thing Communism, socialism nor capitalism will change that. bad things happen.

I don’t necessarily disagree with you, but your punctuation is horrible.

Can we not argue with swndog. He doesn’t like paying taxes. We get it. How many endless paragraphs must he produce showing that whatever he might need to pay taxes for, he shouldn’t have to?

I wouldn’t even know where to begin, Max. Apparently swandog believes he will never fall on hard times and that chemotherapy and nursing home services cost about $30 a month and that insurance plans cover 100% of theses services after age 65.

People seem to think that they can just spend beyond their means and government will provide for them, well that will not work in the long run.

And this has nothing to do with my argument that the elderly have problems that have nothing to do with spending beyond their means.

I guess you are just lucky.

And yes, my grandfather was in a union, that didn’t help my grandma after he died. It basically only made sure he had healthcare while he spent 10 years on dialysis before he died and that they didn’t lose their house.

And, how does a woman making less than $8 an hour save for retirement? She was on food stamps, for christsake, until my aunt moved out of the house.

You’re not going to convince swandog. Fortunately, he doesn’t get to choose whether he pays taxes or not.

Word, Max.

Can we not argue with swndog. He doesn’t like paying taxes. We get it. How many endless paragraphs must he produce showing that whatever he might need to pay taxes for, he shouldn’t have to?

How is that different than you continually bullying those that do not tow the party line? I provided a reasonable argument and you come back is don’t argue. Taxes are the issue, how do you pay for all of the programs at the expense of the many. It is the root of all politics, society, and government. Taxes pay for all of the programs you talk about on this site. Taxes are what drives everything, but hey put your head in the sand.

I have no party line. I just have very little patience for idiocy and selfishness.

You’re not going to convince swandog. Fortunately, he doesn’t get to choose whether he pays taxes or not.

I do vote.

You’ll never be able to vote yourself out of paying taxes, so I’m not certain what you meant by that.

The vast majority of people who use them just DO NOT have any other choice

Very true, but I really think we often overlook and ignore cases where people made it so they had no choice.
Whether having too many kids than they can afford, dropping out of high school(not out of necessity to work like kc’s grandma), making poor financial decisions, damaging their bodies by smoking, drinking and eating too much, etc.

I agree that there are many people who just get dealt a bad hand and have some medical condition, and truly need help. I also understand(although it’s never been proven to me) that the majority of those receiving assistance really had no choice in ending up where they are.

But I also wish we as a society would focus more on eliminating assistance for irresponsible people on the backs of people that take care of themselves and work hard. It’s not fair to those of us who made concious decisions to live (somewhat) responsibly.

because i suspect that the numbers are much larger than we expect.

But I also wish we as a society would focus more on eliminating assistance for irresponsible people on the backs of people that take care of themselves and work hard.

And that’s what Clinton did in 1996 with the welfare reform he put through. I personally think it is a huge crock of shit, but the rest of country seemed to eat it up.

And, how does a woman making less than $8 an hour save for retirement?

Well, she doesn’t. But we all have choices to make, and by the sounds of it the choices she made had an impact on her earning potential. Good, bad, right, wrong, whatever, that was apparently her choice and, like all choices, it had long lasting effects.

The agency I work for has a Welfare to Work program. I see firsthand people who break their backs (figuratively) for a better life for themselves and their families.

I used to think the way swandog, etc. think… I was raised in a very conservative home, and I espoused those beliefs wholeheartedly… until I had personal experience with the REAL PEOPLE that these policies affect. That was the only thing that could (and did) change my mind.

Max is right… Arguing with people like this will not do a thing. It takes experience and an open heart for people to see truth.

Why would you think of it as a crock of shit?

I have no party line. I just have very little patience for idiocy and selfishness.

»» Submitted by »»» msparber at 10:11 AM on June 11

I beg to differ…you’ve had plenty of party lines.

I knew that would come back to haunt me.

I think it is a crock of shit because I’ve seen first hand what the 5 year rule does to families. It breaks them up. It forces people to lie. It forces people to make decisions that are bad for themselves and their familes. It hurts children.

I doubt very much that swandog, or most conservatives, oppose welfare to work programs. We tend to judge the effectiveness of welfare by the number of people who no longer need it, which is the whole ponit of welfare to work programs. We’re also extremely offended at the inference that we – or “people like this” as you so elqoquently put it – are heartless or lacking compassion just because we are generally opposed to the idea of being dependent on the government. That is, frankly, no more arrogant and pigheaded than anything swandog has said.

I have no party line. I just have very little patience for idiocy and selfishness.

Really, You don’t have a party line but you state in a conversation regarding welfare and in direct response to paying taxes that I am selfish, no party line? It is fine if you have a party line but do not deny that you may show your true colors in the statement above. Please explain the idiocy comment, I don’t want to pay others for what I have earned so I am an idiot and selfish.

I have no party line. I just have very little patience for idiocy and selfishness.

Really, You don’t have a party line but you state in a conversation regarding welfare and in direct response to paying taxes that I am selfish, no party line? It is fine if you have a party line but do not deny that you may show your true colors in the statement above. Please explain the idiocy comment, I don’t want to pay others for what I have earned so I am an idiot and selfish.

I have no party line. I just have very little patience for idiocy and selfishness.

Really, You don’t have a party line but you state in a conversation regarding welfare and in direct response to paying taxes that I am selfish, no party line? It is fine if you have a party line but do not deny that you may show your true colors in the statement above. Please explain the idiocy comment, I don’t want to pay others for what I have earned so I am an idiot and selfish.

Actually I think the “irresponsible” people are living off their families and not the gov’t. I don’t think the abuse is as widespread as you think – it’s just what people focus on – a story hits the newswire and suddenly, every person receiving any kind of gov’t assistance is a “deadbeat.”

Don’t most states now have a 5 year limit on welfare programs? Wisconsin is a prime example of how this has not worked. Harsher “get your ass to work” guidelines have led to a costlier program than pre 1996

Yes, we all make choices, but the choice also depends on the offering. If you think that all people have equal access, then… well, in the words of another MNspeaker: “You would be wrong.”

I think it is a crock of shit because I’ve seen first hand what the 5 year rule does to families. It breaks them up. It forces people to lie. It forces people to make decisions that are bad for themselves and their familes. It hurts children.

If the 5 year rule is what I assume it is, I think that’s plenty of generousity on behalf of the taxpayers to an ablebodied person.

My point is that you don’t seem to understand how to make an argument, Swandog. You flap your gums with a lot of assumptions about poor people, which are generally then contradicted by people who have actual experience, and you rarely offer any sort of a reasoned response, except to repeat your same basic, and faulty, assumptions.

If you want to make the case that a particular tax is bad, make that case. Show some statistics. Provide some links. But you don’t especially care to do that. Instead, you just have a hobby horse, and it’s that you don’t like to pay taxes.

Well, sorry, but that’s not conversation and it’s not debate. I don’t think my taxes should be supporting the war in Iraq. Hey, guess what? I don’t mention it every three seconds, because who cares?

I don’t think my taxes should be supporting the war in Iraq. Hey, guess what? I don’t mention it every three seconds, because who cares?

Right, because you have to say things like, “Turn over, teucer’s mom.” “Watch it with the teeth, teucer’s mom.” “But you did the Minnesota Swarm last night, teucer’s mom.” and things like that. Otherwise, you know you would be saying that all the time.

Yes. You make a good point, Kevin.

I used to think the way swandog, etc. think… I was raised in a very conservative home, and I espoused those beliefs wholeheartedly… until I had personal experience with the REAL PEOPLE that these policies affect. That was the only thing that could (and did) change my mind.

Max is right… Arguing with people like this will not do a thing. It takes experience and an open heart for people to see truth.

Your young give it time. I have seen it first hand and actually started out as more liberal and have moved to the conservative side due to my experiences. I see most people scamming the system, making bad decisions then playing victim. I have no problem with welfare to work but if you don’t work you don’t eat and I do not care if you starve. Yes some people need a helping had but I am against a hand out. People make their own choices and many expect the society do pay for their fuck ups, well I do not want to nor will I support such a society. All of these people in need let us think about it, did they finish high school, did they try to get a job, did they do anything at all to improve their life other than go to the welfare office.

think it is a crock of shit because I’ve seen first hand what the 5 year rule does to families. It breaks them up. It forces people to lie. It forces people to make decisions that are bad for themselves and their familes. It hurts children.

It breaks families up because they move to another state to apply again for welfare yes or no. (not all but some). NO ONE IS FORCED TO LIE. Don’t have kids if you can’t afford them, that might just be the beginning of the problem. Again personal responsibility would be a start.

Would “personal responsibility” also include not making sweeping generalizations?

Just askin’.

All of these people in need let us think about it, did they finish high school, did they try to get a job, did they do anything at all to improve their life other than go to the welfare office.

What makes you think that every person on welfare is a HS dropout, never been employed, layabout? Your extensive research of the Social Service system? Or your ignorant bias against any sort of subsidy? Because you certainly haven’t given any proof to back up your assertion that EVERYONE on welfare or Section 8 is a deadbeat.

Yes some people need a helping had but I am against a hand out.

Oh, and make up your effing mind why don’tcha…

All of these people in need let us think about it, did they finish high school, did they try to get a job, did they do anything at all to improve their life other than go to the welfare office.

Based on the lion’s share of my experience? Yes. Yes. And yes.

Actually I think the “irresponsible” people are living off their families and not the gov’t. I don’t think the abuse is as widespread as you think – it’s just what people focus on – a story hits the newswire and suddenly, every person receiving any kind of gov’t assistance is a “deadbeat.”

I think it is much more the family’s role to help out their next of kin, than it is the rest of society’s. I think it is more widespread than you think. But I’m willing to change my mind if provided relevant information. There doesn’t seem to be much out there.

Don’t most states now have a 5 year limit on welfare programs? Wisconsin is a prime example of how this has not worked. Harsher “get your ass to work” guidelines have led to a costlier program than pre 1996

Well, what do you suggest? I think giving them assistance for five years so they can start doing things like educating themselves, changing bad habits, focus on finding steady, reliable employment, etc is pretty fair. Do you suggest they be able to remain on assistance indefinately? How is this going to help them in the long run? It’s like letting someone crash with you until they get back on their feet–it’s not an offer to permenently house them.

Yes, we all make choices, but the choice also depends on the offering. If you think that all people have equal access, then… well, in the words of another MNspeaker: “You would be wrong.”

I understand that people do not have the same opportunities across the board, and that temptation is stronger in some places than in others, but choice is always there, Cat. I made a concious choice, although sometimes difficult and dissapointing, to not have unprotected sex in high school. I realize these types of choices are hard, often seemingly impossible. Anyone, no matter where they are, can make these choices. Many don’t.

My grandparents saved retired and would never I mean never accept a handout, just an ethic I guess.

I’m curious to know if they accept their social security check, since that, in essence is paid for with your tax money, or maybe you think that should be eliminated too? (of course it’ll be gone by the time we retire).

It breaks families up because they move to another state to apply again for welfare yes or no. (not all but some). NO ONE IS FORCED TO LIE. Don’t have kids if you can’t afford them, that might just be the beginning of the problem. Again personal responsibility would be a start.

The five year rule is a FEDERAL law, which means you cannot move to another state and start over, your months follow you.

What, if you had kids when you could afford them, then lost your job and then can’t? Or, what if you don’t have money to have the abortion? Or don’t believe in abortion? Or a million other scenarios?

And it breaks families up by forcing women to give their children away to other family members who do have time left on the 60 month countdown while they go about finding a way to support themselves (prostitution, drug dealing, homeless shelters, etc.)

And Kevin, yes, they are supposedly able body folks, but that is not always the case. I know that the counties go to extreme lengths to get months not counted, but undiagnosed mental illness, learning disabilities, and other disabilities cause people to hit their limits.

Also, studies have shown that low income children whose parents are on welfare and stay home do better in school than the children who have parents who are never home due to working multiple jobs.

All of these people in need let us think about it, did they finish high school, did they try to get a job, did they do anything at all to improve their life other than go to the welfare office.

Instead of asking questions, why don’t you do some research? We’re not your Google.

What makes you think that every person on welfare is a HS dropout, never been employed, layabout?

Alie, do you have some information you would like to share about this subject? I’m having trouble finding any relevant information.

Aw, crap. Here. Got you started.

I only have anecdotal evidence amongst my own family and friends, baker. But lack of evidence does not prove anything to the contrary.

BTW, I grew up in a publicly subsidized housing project (similar to Habitat for Humanity) and both of my parents worked their asses off their whole lives (for the govnt, BTW). I’m sure my dad, who works full time for the Air Nat’l Guard would be amused to learn that he’s a deadbeat because he accepted a subsidy to buy a house 22 years ago.

Here is the breakdown of the MFIP (families cash) program. It is a pdf.

So, like 44% of adult participants don’t have high school degrees. But, a large number of participants are also immigrants, which makes me think they make up a large part of that 44%.

And, most families have two kids or less. Having one child is the largest category of MFIP participants.

What, if you had kids when you could afford them, then lost your job and then can’t? Or, what if you don’t have money to have the abortion? Or don’t believe in abortion? Or a million other scenarios

Yea we can what if all we want to, what if no one got a penny and they had to figure it out for themselves vs the government paying for everything they need.

And it breaks families up by forcing women to give their children away to other family members who do have time left on the 60 month countdown while they go about finding a way to support themselves (prostitution, drug dealing, homeless shelters, etc.)

So people are forced to break the law, this is the problem. It is one excuse after another as to why some one is a fuck-up. The excuse that I can make more by breaking the law than working at McDonald’s is crap. You start somewhere and if you never worked at a shitty job and began the process of developing the skills to become employable well that is not my problem and I do not care if you eat tonight. I would be ok with subsidizing those that work. If you work we will help you if you don’t work you don’t eat. I would exclude those that are truly unable to work but the line would be very black and whit. Let me ask you this kc, how many of your clients have cell phones, tv’s, cars, ect. .

Wow! This is an upbeat convo! Why don’t you try hitting your head against a wall instead? You might have better luck.

So, like 44% of adult participants don’t have high school degrees. But, a large number of participants are also immigrants, which makes me think they make up a large part of that 44%.

And, most families have two kids or less. Having one child is the largest category of MFIP participants.

Ths is the problem, they breed and we feed. Great so I owe a bunch of immigrants a subsidy’s also. If they can’t work why come to the US, we owe them nothing. If Churches, agencies and charities want to bring people to this country then they should pay for it.

BTW, I grew up in a publicly subsidized housing project (similar to Habitat for Humanity) and both of my parents worked their asses off their whole lives (for the govnt, BTW). I’m sure my dad, who works full time for the Air Nat’l Guard would be amused to learn that he’s a deadbeat because he accepted a subsidy to buy a house 22 years ago.

Alie I have no problem with this kind of program. If your family works they they should be rewarded. How about this, if we continue to subsidized everyone the programs that helped you will be gone.

Swandog, how can you have no problem with that program and then have a problem with vouchers? They are the same damn thing!

Tinnie, I agree…I’m outtie…

I’ll look for the article I read on welfare reform (primarily Wisconsin) but for now, you get bupkiss.

Nope, not advocating for don’t work, live on gov’t assistance forever and ever, Amen. Just saying that there are huge issues with a number of the “get to work” programs as well so it’s not a cure all.

Choice of what is always there, baker? I don’t disagree with what you have said, I just question the definition of “choice.” Or maybe the accessibility of choice. I was fortunate to have been adopted into a family who did well financially. My “choices” were clearly different with my family than if I would not have been adopted.

what if no one got a penny and they had to figure it out for themselves vs the government paying for everything they need.

People would sell their children into slavery, prostitution, etc. They would make their children work for below minimum wage in illegal jobs. In fact, they too would probably work sporadiacally in illegal employment too.

Ths is the problem, they breed and we feed. Great so I owe a bunch of immigrants a subsidy’s also. If they can’t work why come to the US, we owe them nothing.

My point was that most people on MFIP have very few children and the myth that people just keep having more kids to get more money isn’t true.

And, the immigrants who receive MFIP are almost exclusively refugees. We do owe the Hmong something since they fought on our side of the Vietnam war and then we left them high and dry to be killed by their enemies. And the Somalis, they didn’t choose to come here either. Same with the vietnamese and the ethiopians.

how many of your clients have cell phones, tv’s, cars, ect. .

I don’t have clients. When I did, I worked with single adults. But, they almost all had cell phones. Because you don’t need a home address to have a cell phone and they are all pre-pay now. Almost none had cars, except a few that slept in them. I never visited their homes, but I’d assume a lot have TVs. TVs second hand are cheap.

I think my agency has the clients you’re talking about. Most of our immigrant clients work harder than almost anyone I’ve ever met. And the whole point of the program is that they do transition to full time, independent employment.

I can speak especially to the Somali question. They come here because they are escaping a horrific situation. One of my friends actually saw her husband shot in the street. I don’t begrudge her the right to make her life and those of her children better in any possible way, ESPECIALLY since she works her ass off to achieve that. I’d do the same thing, I think.

Swandog seems to have glossed over Alie’s question about whether or not his grandparents accept their Social Security checks. Or do they destroy them?

Yea we can what if all we want to, what if no one got a penny and they had to figure it out for themselves vs the government paying for everything they need.

Are you prepared for the crime wave that would ensue? Or wait until the slums of Kolkata, the favelas of Rio start popping up.

Possibly, a bit of exaggeration, but we had the Hoovervilles during the Great Depression.

Tru.

Great so I owe a bunch of immigrants a subsidy’s also. If they can’t work why come to the US, we owe them nothing.

Ship that damn lady with the lantern back to France, we’ve got no use for this sentiment:

“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

You do realize, swandog, that immigration is one of the greatest engines of our economy?

I don’t think swandog realizes a lot of things.

You do realize, swandog, that immigration is one of the greatest engines of our economy?

I thought it was prostitution and drug trade?

Just Joshin’.

mnblrmkr: “You do realize, swandog, that immigration is one of the greatest engines of our economy?”

No shit.

Although I will cheerfully admit to coming over here, taking a job that could have been done by a US Citizen and then corrupting your women folk. Not to mention some of the men too.

And unless you’re 100% Native American, your ancestors are immigrants too.

Except back then instead of allowing them a slum apartment and a shitty job, they got 160 acres of free land, if they agreed to work it.

ask yourself this:

who’s more a fool…the flamebaiting trolling fool or the fools who argue with the flamebaiting trolling fool?

GODDAMNIT GROTE

“Ths is the problem, they breed and we feed.”

Wow, you tellem’ swndg. You won me over with that little jem.

Yoder: Did he have you at “breed” or “feed”?

I’m a breeder not a feeder.

Or something like that.

Me neither, Grote, who thinks I’m in Arizona.

Yes some people need a helping had but I am against a hand out.

Oh, and make up your effing mind why don’tcha…

Well that’s kind of how it is. It’s a blurry line.

Teucer, your debt to Americans was repaid the minute we laid eyes (and later everything else) on your mom.

Don’t answer Maz, kc. He;s just posting to get deleted at this point.

Who’s posting to get deleted, Max?

Maz.

Who’s Maz? Are they this Badgery thing person?

Email me if you want to discuss it. Different people, just as annoying.

lulz

And unless you’re 100% Native American, your ancestors are immigrants too.

Even the Native Americans immigrated here. Most of them across the Bering Strait’s Land Bridge.

Nope, not advocating for don’t work, live on gov’t assistance forever and ever, Amen. Just saying that there are huge issues with a number of the “get to work” programs as well so it’s not a cure all.

Nothing’s a cure all. But it certainly makes sense to try to elevate people towards success, insetad of just taking care of them forever. Some seem to think that since it is not a perfect system, that it’s not worth trying at all.

Choice of what is always there, baker? I don’t disagree with what you have said, I just question the definition of “choice.” Or maybe the accessibility of choice. I was fortunate to have been adopted into a family who did well financially. My “choices” were clearly different with my family than if I would not have been adopted.

the choice to not make foolish decisions, such as getting pregnant as a young girl, having too many kids, gambling with financial deals, etc. You were granted more opportunities, Cat, by being adopted by a loving family. The personal choices you have made respective to your situation were, and always will be, yours. There’s a difference, in my mind anyways.

Even the Native Americans immigrated here. Most of them across the Bering Strait’s Land Bridge.

You’re absolutely right, and I thought about that. But there was no established society here to *ahem* welcome them.

Swandog seems to have glossed over Alie’s question about whether or not his grandparents accept their Social Security checks. Or do they destroy them?

They are dead but yes they took what they paid in, ss is not a welfare system purse.

I think my agency has the clients you’re talking about. Most of our immigrant clients work harder than almost anyone I’ve ever met. And the whole point of the program is that they do transition to full time, independent employment.

I can speak especially to the Somali question. They come here because they are escaping a horrific situation. One of my friends actually saw her husband shot in the street. I don’t begrudge her the right to make her life and those of her children better in any possible way, ESPECIALLY since she works her ass off to achieve that. I’d do the same thing, I think.

Why do I have to pay for another groups good works. If the Churches, the charities ect. want to bring refugees to this country then they should pay for all of their needs and not drop them off at the welfare office. You and others like you make the assumption that we all are in favor of charitable giving through our tax dollars but we are not. It is a form of taking my money in the form of taxes and forcing me to pay for your or other charities good works. I do not owe anyone anything.

Except back then instead of allowing them a slum apartment and a shitty job, they got 160 acres of free land, if they agreed to work it.

No land just a paper mill.

mnblrmkr, your a communist and a consistent one. I respect where you come form but just do not agree most of the time. Immigration WAS an engine, in a welfare state it is not.

TROLL.

ss is not a welfare system purse.

Are you sure about that?

Like Max said, you’re not offering any coherent argument to the things I (we) say. You just repeat the same old rhetoric.

I’m sick of wasting my day. I’m out.

Just a quick question…was the 5 year limit basically set at 5 years so the people with newborns would have a chance to get them into school before thier 5 year limit ran out and if you had more kids after that you were on your own?

I can’t even believe you people read swandog’s stuff. I sure don’t.

You’re right, baker, in that because a program isn’t perfect doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try. I was just pointing out that a lot of people rallied around the “get to work” programs when some ended up costing more than the pre-welfare reform days. So, maybe tweaking a program rather than a complete overhaul is better at times.

And the only reason I brought up my adoption was to show how very different the influences on my life could have been. I made some pretty hellacious and foolish mistakes in my youth, but I had the support of my family: A two parent household with a mother who didn’t have to work and the ability to create opportunities that would not have been there for me if my parents hadn’t been overly involved in my life.

Not everyone has that. And for a single mother – whatever the circumstances, it’s harder to be both a parent and head of household. There needs to be some kind of support for her and her child. It doesn’t have to be about foolish or wrong decisions. An unexpected illness or layoff or pay can set into motion a series of unfortunate events.

They are dead but yes they took what they paid in, ss is not a welfare system purse.

I can almost guarantee you they received far more benefits than they ever paid in.

mnblrmkr, your a communist and a consistent one.

Actually, no I’m not. And in Europe, I probably wouldn’t even be particularly leftist.

Things would have been a lot different if you had been adopted by my parents like I was, I can tell you that, Cat.

For one thing, you’d be a man. For another, you’d be 40. And Irish.

I can almost guarantee you they received far more benefits than they ever paid in.

Considering that, in all likelyhood, I won’t be receiving any of the money that I’ve paid in since I was 14 by the time I retire, I whole-heartedly agree.

Don’t forget constantly drunk and regularly violating Teucer’s mom, Max!

That’s hardly unique to me.

Considering that, in all likelyhood, I won’t be receiving any of the money that I’ve paid in since I was 14 by the time I retire, I whole-heartedly agree.

Barring total economic collapse, rising productivity should allow you to receive the benefits promised.

That’s not what GW says…

/snickers…

I AM IRISH! Or at least by proxy.

Interesting thought: If we had been switched, you’d be an Irish Irish and I’d be a Chinese Jew.

The drinking thing never stuck, and Teucer’s mom? Not my type. Although she seems like a very lovely woman.

His sister on the other hand…

… is made up and does not exist.

If you were a Chinese Jew you would have spent your whole life having people tell you you don’t look Jewish. It’s an old joke, and a really unfunny one.

Hm. Irish Chinese. That’s a combo I haven’t heard before. There’s tons of Irish Jews, though, not the least of which include Leopold Bloom, Daniel Day Lewis, and Chaim Herzog, sixth President of Israel.

Actually, no I’m not. And in Europe, I probably wouldn’t even be particularly leftist

I am serious when I say that I respect you. I stand corrected and apologize for my mistake. I think I mistook what you said from another post. I stand corrected. Yea in Norway and Sweden they probably would consider you a capitalistic pig, but I know you are not.

When I hear Irish-Chinese, I always think of this episode of Father Ted: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6qTyDFtLEU

When I think of Chinese Irish, I always think of Chang O’Hara’s

Well, I DID like their corned beef egg rolls!

I think must people prefer the new place, the Happy Gnome (especially the beer lovers).

I preferred the old Chang O’Hara’s. Much less pretentious.
Though the new upstairs space at the Gnome is nice…

Barring total economic collapse, rising productivity should allow you to receive the benefits promised.

The hope of us all but I don’t know if it will happen.

simpleton- I don’t think it has to do with birth to K timelines. And 5 years was the max states could choose for a time limit, I think some states went with shorter time limits.

Well, I DID like their corned beef egg rolls!

That is the grossest thing I’ve ever read.

(barfs)

I am serious when I say that I respect you. I stand corrected and apologize for my mistake. I think I mistook what you said from another post. I stand corrected. Yea in Norway and Sweden they probably would consider you a capitalistic pig, but I know you are not.

Just don’t call me Teucer’s mom.

Teucer’s mom (an undocumented immigrant, BTW) and a big trayfull of corned beef eggrolls for everyone!

I think 5 years was originally thought to be enough time for the mom to finish her education if necessary and upgrade the job and for the child to be in school – no full-time day care.

From what I understand, the 5 years was only for cash payouts and excluded support services such as medical and childcare. Some states tried 2 years and some states were able to extend the program to 8 years, although I can’t remember what the guidelines were for the extension.

The findings from 5 year programs were interesting in that they realized that the cost for pushing someone through the system that quickly was more expensive and that instability in the home took longer than 5 years.

Also, a lot of these programs act as crutches to help people keep from falling in to even worse situations. Want a for example? Sure:

I managed to get my girlfriend pregnant when I was 18. What can I say — I was young and ridiculously stupid. In order to pay for the doctor visits, delivery, etc., she went on medical assistance. Had we had to pay for those visits, we would’ve been in a ridiculous amount of debt, I likely would’ve needed to put my college career on hold, if not drop out altogether, and it would’ve set me back years, if not decades — making it even more likely that I end up on welfare or some other form of assistance to get by.

Instead, we had a healthy baby boy, who some of you have met a few times. And while the relationship with his mom didn’t last, I was able to stay in school while working a job and holding down an internship to get a degree, pay rent, and come out on the other side with a degree and a career.

Bottom line — these programs do far more good for people, and society, than many give them credit for. Take a look at societies without functional government programs and assistance for examples of what life could devolve into without them. Leaving whole segments of society and creating a class of people unlikely to ever claw their way out is a quick way to foment class warfare in the streets, rather than on message boards and blogs.