Secrets of the City

Knitting among teenagers was one of the things Mark Penn highlighted in his book Microtrends.

I knit, most of my good friends knit, my brother knits, my male hair dresser knits. It is pretty much the hip thing to do and I doubt many people think it is for grannies.

Max, interesting that you tagged it “art.” I think most people consider it “craft.”

Don’t have a “craft” tag, alas.

that baby blanket you made is a work of art, kc!

The wussification of america continues unabated.

There is a movement underway to get knitters out in the public and to show the craft is not just for grannies.

Christ Almighty, who under the age of 40 still thinks knitting is “just for grannies”? I must have dated about nineteen hip knitting types in college, and that was getting to be almost ten years ago. And they all were saying the same thing: knitting isn’t just for grannies anymore! How many times does it need to be repeated?

And Maz’s hatred of women continues unabated.

I remember knitting being an important trend a few years ago, especially when I was in college. I thought it was pretty mainstream by now.

I tried to take up knitting a couple of years ago as a way to quit smoking. Didn’t work. BTW, one shouldn’t really try and teach themselves to knit while going through nicotine withdrawls.

And Maz’s hatred of women continues unabated.

I don’t hate women. I just think 60% of them are stupid.

Wow.

Um, are you done yet?

Yeah, man, no kidding. I am going to call up all nineteen knitting hipster girls I dated in college and form a posse. They’re tough and don’t take any misogynist shit!

You could choose to see yourself as one of the 40% or you could recognize yourself and get defensive I suppose.

Feel better now?

Or she could choose to recognize you as a creep.

I must have dated about nineteen hip knitting types in college

It’s kitsch affectation, like swing dancing. They don’t like it, they like to laugh themselves doing it. It’s ironic.

Bet they’re not doing it now because no one is watching them.

Knitting is for grannies.

Anyway, Maz’s idiocy has nothign to do with the topic at hand. Let’s ignore it for the blatantly anti-female trolling it is, and, if he can’t reign it in, I’ll just go ahead and weed out anything that is off topic.

My grandma is a crocheter. She actually trash talks knitting. I’m not quite sure why she has such disdain for knitting but she does.

Rat is 10 times smarter than any of you.

Bix, my grandma taught me to crochet to…I think I still have some of the pot holders I made.

Bet they’re not doing it now because no one is watching them.

I wonder what hazing Maz and Rat put each other through to start their awesome Man Fraternity.

I knit. I do it in the privacy of my home or on long road trips. I don’t think I’m cool or ironic for doing it. I do it because I like it.

nuh uh! Is not! You’re a stinky poop face!

My mother — the grandmother — crochets as well. And, she could kick Maz’s ass any day of the week!

For our wedding, we got a 5′x3′ crocheted Last Supper. My mom is a serious bad ass crocheter.

I sort of started knitting because it was hip, but also because I hated homework and needed a distraction. I don’t knit tons, but I still do. Lately I’ve been embroidering. That’s a lot more fun.

Rosie Greer used to crochet, We would have loved to see anybody call him a wussy because of that.

Sly Stallone knitted in “Demolition Man.”

Although he did feel a little silly about it.

I must have dated about nineteen hip knitting types in college

Whore.

It’s kitsch affectation, like swing dancing.

It’s nice of The Rat to share The Rat’s opinion of affectations.

I sort of started knitting because it was hip, but also because I hated homework and needed a distraction.

Did you knit yourself a white belt?

/teasing.

I’ve known a lot of swing dancers, and, if a criticism can be made, it’s that they don’t see the dance as kitschy enough. They tend to be quite serious and nerdly about the subject.

The Rat has it on good authority (Gentleman’s Quarterly) that guys can really undertake only two hobbies: Golf and Fly Fishing.

Anything else: Stamp Collecting, Yoga, First Editions, looks kinda pathetic.

Give me a hot yoga dude over a fly fisher any day…

My hobbies are hot three ways with gorgeous chicks. What does GQ have to say about that?

They tend to be quite serious and nerdly about the subject.
Way too serious. That and they are the most incestuous group of dancers ever, which is saying a lot.

Re: Knitting

I thought the knitters all switched to scrap booking.

If you have to talk about it, Max, it ain’t happening.

Well, I’m not about to link you to the proof.

I’ve been told most guys can’t handle hot yoga.

Besides, I thought fly fishing were for guys Robert Redford’s age?

All the fly guys I know are older than I. Except for Jason Borger, who did the fly casting for A River Runs Through It.

Besides, I thought fly fishing were for guys Robert Redford’s age?

I can attest to that. I fly fish and I’m old.

Boy, my grammer sux today.

Were=was

Knit-Whit local Knitting Blog.

As a gentleman, as a rule, I hate to disagree with GQ, but…

Drag Racing?
Woodworking?
Sky Diving?
Calf Roping?
Dirt Bike Racing?
Gator Wrestling?
Naked Coed Twister?

There a lots of hobbies men can be involved with that are not pathetic — like golf and fly fishing.

Give me a hot yoga dude over a fly fisher any day…

Oh my god, tell me about it. There is a guy in the hot class I go to who is RIPPED. and sweaty… I gotta go.

Knitting is really not an art topic.

I know because this post actually drew more than 10 commenters.

What is it about art that drives the Whyerd Generashun away?

MPR has the story is under the Arts and Culture tab.

When everything is considered art, is anything art?

There is a guy in the hot class I go to who is RIPPED.

Probably one of simpleton’s buddies.

Perhaps they meant it to be identified as “culture.”

And now Maz is letting loose with the homophobia. You’re batting a thousand for intolerance today. Congrats. It’s so nice to have you back.

I vote for the rat on this one.

Well, the other nineteen girls I dated in college, the ones that weren’t hip knitters, were performance artists, if that makes any sense.

Wow, I dated 38 girls in college? Hmm, that doesn’t sound right at all.

When everything is considered art, is anything art?

The Rat goes from third person to existential in 3 seconds flat.

Well, I’m not about to link you to the proof.

Would the proof be something along these lines?

It’s not unrelated.

Well, the other nineteen girls I dated in college, the ones that weren’t hip knitters, were performance artists, if that makes any sense.

Which one was the diaper cop?

“Knitting is really not an art topic. “

Of course it is. Domestic arts are arts, and the only reason they’re denigrated as such is because it’s “women’s work.”

Now apologize before I use the word “patriarchal.” Don’t make me do it!

You are a man of infinite depth, Max Sparber.

And impressive girth.

No, I stand by my assessment.
This is not an art topic.

Wow, I dated 38 girls in college? Hmm, that doesn’t sound right at all.

Depends on how you define “dated,” kurtis..

And impressive girth.

I set em up, you just keep knockin em down!

“When everything is considered art, is anything art?”

When creating something original that requires skill, patience, discipline and creativity is considered art, then who knows what’s next? Oil painting? Music?

Gulp. Blogging?

Didn’t the Twins have a “knit-in” at one game last summer?

I’m certainly not anti-knitting. It’s not my cup of tea, either, but… I don’t get the point of a mass public knitting demonstration. There’s certainly no public stigma to it like breastfeeding (except for maybe airport security, and who hasn’t wanted to stab someone with a knitting needle?). Is there some kind of Knitting Industrial Complex?

Everything is not considered art.
Sorry to burst that bubble…

How would y’all smartypantses categorize it if it’s not “art”?

I consider knitting art…textile arts, ya know. My friend got her degree in Art and had to take a whole class on it.

I, for one, am faux-fended that there isn’t a special knitting category.

How about people that hand make rugs? Is that art?

Depends on how you define “dated,” kurtis.

Very very broadly. I think, actually, glowering awkwardly at each other in a townie bar with the Cure on the jukebox counts, generally.

Domestic arts are arts, and the only reason they’re denigrated as such is because it’s “women’s work.”

I’ll turn it back on you Kurtis: By elevating so much to the level of art, aren’t you denigrating craft?

“No, I stand by my assessment.
This is not an art topic.”

Give us a functional definition of “art” and we’ll see why knitting should not be included.

Give us a functional definition of “art” and we’ll see why knitting should not be included.

Seriously, how about a little deconstructive thought and if you could tie it in with a few hair band allegories that’d be super.

I don’t think, incidentally, that knitting need be so monolithically defined. Knitting is not necessarily just a disicpline, but a technique that can be used to artistic ends. One could take a look through the offerings on etsy.com and find plenty of knitting projects that fall more on the side of art than craft.

Who’s denigrating? If anything, in this day and age, calling anything art is a slur–a sure traffic non-driver…

I’d call well-meaning knitting shilling a “social trend,” or I’d file it under “culture,” “hobby,” or something that everyone can smile and nod about…

To be art, it has to be about torment and sitting alone in a studio wondering where the hell could the public be.

Kind of like blogging.

To be art, it has to be about torment and sitting alone in a studio wondering where the hell could the public be.
Tolstoy may disagree

Tolstoy died more than 100 years ago.
I’m talking about the arts today.

Tolstoy died more than 100 years ago.
So. I’m not even saying I agree with Tolstoy, but it’s a start for some intellectual discourse on what is or isn’t art.

Unlike “It’s not art” because some guy named Art says so.

Seriously, how about a little deconstructive thought and if you could tie it in with a few hair band allegories that’d be super.

Hm. I’m intrigued by this.
Can you start us with a few “hair band allegories”?

“Seriously, how about a little deconstructive thought and if you could tie it in with a few hair band allegories that’d be super.”

I asked for a “functional” definition, not an obscure one.

“To be art, it has to be about torment and sitting alone in a studio wondering where the hell could the public be.”

Oh, right. I forgot about definition 876 in the OED. Sorry, I thought we were operating under the more general use of art as “Skill in doing anything as the result of knowledge and practice” or “The application of skill to subjects of taste, as poetry, music, dancing, the drama, oratory, literary composition, and the like.” Well, that’s the utility of a definition, it gives us common ground.

I’m sure we can agree that knitting is an art by those definitions, though.

I think we’re talking about what is and isn’t fine art, here, right?

Knitting, understood as a discipline, is an art. I don’t think, though, that a knit scarf or hat is necessarily fine art.

To be art, it has to be about torment and sitting alone in a studio wondering where the hell could the public be.

And that’s the kind of BS attitude that keeps people away.

Andy makes a good point, but they could knit something that would be considered fine art.

Also, the type of art this would be considered is Decorative Art

Knitting among teenagers was one of the things Mark Penn highlighted in his book Microtrends.

Worst book ever. Should have been called “Shit You Read About A While Ago.”

The distinction between fine art and… holy shit, it’s time to go home!

This thread (pun…intended) is an all-time MNspeak low. Shame on all of us.

I’m with Kurtis on this one. It is time to go home!

I was being flip and polemical, while Andy keeps being the voice of reason… (Andy, what you’re saying is spot on, of course–thanks).

Still, there is a point behind what I say. Saying everything is art and everyone (every knitter, every blogger, every Ytuber) is an artist does no good to anyone. It leads to the ironic disconnect that is so often evident in open (2.0) sites like this: Every individual’s firm belief that he/she is wonderful and creative and artistic, coupled with a very firm (and angry–thank you mnblrmkr for demostrating) widespread antipathy toward real working artists (which happens to be an extremely difficult profession.

I wrote it up better once for mnartists:

According to recent studies by the Urban Institute and the Rand Corporation, Americans say they overwhelmingly love art but do not care much at all for the makers of art. For example, 96 percent of survey respondents were greatly inspired by various kinds of art and highly value art in their lives and communities, but only 27 percent of respondents said they believe that artists contribute to the good of society. Further survey results showed that Americans do not value art making as legitimate work worthy of compensation, and many see it as a frivolous or recreational pursuit. This, even as a majority of parents think that teaching the arts is as important as reading, math, science, history, and geography, and as 95 percent of parents believe that the arts are important in preparing children for the future.
So, in sum, we nearly universally seek to expose our kids to the joys and pleasures of the arts and celebrate their involvement with art, yet we also widely disdain adult practitioners of such art forms.

Oops. Missed the cattle all on that one!
Sorry, got carried away.

How do you delete?

So, in sum, we nearly universally seek to expose our kids to the joys and pleasures of the arts and celebrate their involvement with art, yet we also widely disdain adult practitioners of such art forms

Makes sense to me.

Also to the point: I think the task of making functional, decorative pieces is something a craftsman does. Journalists were craftsmen before it became a profession. My brother builds custom furniture with highly decorative elements. I wouldn’t consider him an artist.

What’s wrong with being craftsman? Elevating everything to the level of art seems to diminish the contribution of workaday craftsmen. Like you have to be an artist or you’re something less.

Still, there is a point behind what I say. Saying everything is art and everyone (every knitter, every blogger, every Ytuber) is an artist does no good to anyone.

Again, I call BS. To make an analogy: It’s not denigrating to Mercedes or BMW or Lexus to say that a Yugo or Geo are also cars.

And there was no anger in my previous comment.

Sorry, I call non sequitur–mostly owing to a false correlation (art:knitting`expensive car:cheap car).

And OK, so you weren’t angry. Just crude and confrontational… Same diff.

As for calling out for a definition of art, I’m not a philosopher. I take the Louis Armstrong answer to heart: “If you have to ask, you’ll never know.” Things either are or they aren’t art. That’s my critical hat speaking.

With my other hat, I’m more of a policy person. I’m interested in what is an artist, and what does it mean to be one.

I’m interested in what is an artist, and what does it mean to be one.

Sounds to me like you’re equally interested in determining what isn’t an artist, and what it doesn’t mean to not be one.

As for calling out for a definition of art, I’m not a philosopher. I take the Louis Armstrong answer to heart: “If you have to ask, you’ll never know.”

I couldn’t agree more, but somehow I think the quote supports my argument more than yours.

Why does it have to be art, Kurtis?

What do have against craft?

It seems like an artificial distinction. Or a craftificial distinction, if you prefer.

I see no gain in objecting to artistic creations being called art. My wife’s knitted toys are clever, creative, hard work, and make her happy. So what if she’s not cutting herself and pissing on canvas and shaking her fist at the establishment? Art is creative expression. Any this-is-and-that-is-notting smacks of affect and snobbery.

I think Picasso said something cool about this once worth quoting, but I can’t look for it right now. Dinner’s on.

I often regret leaving work…

I think knitters who make their own designs are artists. I’ve seen some of the most beautiful knit things that were truly works of art.

I think knitters who follow patterns are crafters.

I think people who paint by numbers are also crafters.

My wife’s knitted toys are clever, creative, hard work, and make her happy.

It’s a great pastime. I tie trout flies. I don’t consider myself an artist.

So what if she’s not cutting herself and pissing on canvas

I agree with you, that’s a con job.

Sounds to me like you’re equally interested in determining what isn’t an artist, and what it doesn’t mean to not be one.

Huh?

It seems like an artificial distinction. Or a craftificial distinction, if you prefer.

Art is made by artists. That’s my rule… Nothing artificial about it.

I see no gain in objecting to artistic creations being called art. My wife’s knitted toys are clever, creative, hard work, and make her happy. So what if she’s not cutting herself and pissing on canvas and shaking her fist at the establishment? Art is creative expression. Any this-is-and-that-is-notting smacks of affect and snobbery.

Straw-man argument. Over generalization. Exaggeration. Cliche. Sweeping generalization.

Art is pretty subjective, which is why I dislike discussing it with artists.

Ah, but that’s what makes it fun!

Knitting is really not an art topic.

To be art, it has to be about torment and sitting alone in a studio wondering where the hell could the public be.

Fun? No. Elitist and snobbery? Yes.

Art is made by artists. That’s my rule… Nothing artificial about it.

Nothing circular either, I suppose.

Interesting conversation. There is the thought that craft and art are interchangeable. The NY Times has done a number of stories on knitting as an art form, but here are a few – two are obits of women who were known as knitters/artists and one is about an exhibition at the Museum of Arts & Design.

The Art of Knitting

Radical Lace and Subversive Knitting

Mary Walker Phillps – Textile Artist

If knitting works are shown in a gallery or museum, is it art? I’m not saying it is, just posing the question.

Torment is elitist?
Interesting take…

I make no apology for siding with artists in their struggles to survive in this brutal culture.

PS., I’m not an artists myself. Gave up the ghost long ago, and am happier for it. (It’s a brutal life.)

What is the basis for your set of issues?

Straw-man argument. Over generalization. Exaggeration. Cliche. Sweeping generalization.

I see you’ve been collecting terms from Fallacy Files. I’m fond of the fallacy fallacy, myself.

Nothing circular either, I suppose.

It’s a vicious circle!

OK, I’m out. Even I’ve had enough…

Art is made by artists. That’s my rule… Nothing artificial about it.

Sure there is, unless there is some certificate or professional license, you’re creating an artificial (and arbitrary) category of who is an “artist.”

…collecting terms from Fallacy Files…

The who the what?
No, just a fan of logical argumentation.

Oops. I said I was out!

I like to knit my pubic hair after a nice brazilian. Last time I had enough for a shawl.

What is the basis for your set of issues?

My basis is that it’s elitist to say that you’re not truly an artist unless you’ve suffered for your art (whatever that means). My aunt draws and makes ink prints of local fish. She’s never suffered for her art, yet is a moderately successful artist in her community. It’s dismissive to say the least to qualify art within that narrow scope.

I make no apology for siding with artists in their struggles to survive in this brutal culture.

No, just a fan of logical argumentation.

Nuff quoted.

Well, I come by my observation of artist suffering honestly. As a critic, it’s all I tend to hear from artists…

By my own definition, your aunt would make art, because she claims herself an artist.
My argument, that art is made by artists, is really not a circular one. It’s easier to define “artist” than art. Part of this is because art definitions are constantly changing, despite the efforts of reactionaries like me. The other part is intention. An artist declares him or herself an artist, making it so…

The suffering thing comes, I theorize, because so many artists (apparently your aunt notwithstanding) have such high expectations (that rarely get met)…

And just to stir the pot a bit. The sibs and I used to tease my mom about her quilting – picking out the right materials, dyeing her thread to the right color, creating patterns and cutting and hand stitching.

We shrugged it off as a hobby. But, my mom didn’t see it that way and neither did the Cleveland Museum of Art when they did an exhibition on folk/textile art and asked my mom to submit her work. Three of her quilts were chosen and we quit teasing her.

Nice story. I love that folk art shit.

The suffering thing comes, I theorize, because so many artists (apparently your aunt notwithstanding) have such high expectations (that rarely get met)…

Stirring the pot some more…maybe it’s because they weren’t really that good at their medium?

I myself feel my creative endeavors improved dramatically when I was happier. That’s why I started selling stuff right about the time I got married.

And you criticized someone else for being crude, arthappy?

Your response proves that you really don’t want to have a reasonable or logical discourse, you would just like to prove to all that you opinion of what art is, is the only one of importance.

And your condescension is so inviting – thank you!

I was sincere. I do love that folk art shit.

So, in sum, we nearly universally seek to expose our kids to the joys and pleasures of the arts and celebrate their involvement with art, yet we also widely disdain adult practitioners of such art forms.

Maybe it’s because we’ve met too many like arthappy.

I think true art works its way up. Finds its way through connections and recognition of talent. Working the angles, making the right contacts and getting it done. The rest of it is either a past time or merchandise.

Like that Stephen Sondheim song goes:

The art of making art, is putting it together.

i have several knitted socks and they rock.

…we also widely disdain adult practitioners of such art forms.

Maybe it’s because we’ve met too many like arthappy.

I believe I mentioned before that I’m not an artist…

But otherwise, none of this heckling has changed the fact that knitting is not art.

This is a really smart assessment:
I think true art works its way up. Finds its way through connections and recognition of talent. Working the angles, making the right contacts and getting it done. The rest of it is either a past time or merchandise.

My mother knits me slippers every year. They wear out shortly. They’re not art.

Well, you can’t beat that logic! I paint my deck every few summers. It’s not art, so I guess painting isn’t art.

This thread is a real work of art.

Well, you can’t beat that logic! I paint my deck every few summers. It’s not art, so I guess painting isn’t art.

This is puzzling.

This is puzzling.

But is it art?

I’m a bit late to this party, but little old me has known that knitting has been a radical neo-feminist pastime since 9/11 or so. Not everyone was immediately aware of it, and I still recall the assertive-not-shrill response of a post-feminist female friend, after my comment that “men have (don’t recall), women have their knitting clubs.” Since then, it’s been commercialized by the years-old Stitch ‘n Bitch series, a not-difficult find in the bookstore because of its title and/or tendency to be displayed with the back of the slipcase.

Side note: knitting clubs are more dangerous than that hive of killer bees that is the La Leche League. And I’m only sort of kidding.

Proposed question for tomorrow’s commentary: is yoyoing a sport? Please include a clear thesis statement and at least three supporting arguments.

P.S.

Knitting as art, Knitting books as art, Mary Walker Phillips, deceased knitting artist, has art in museums.

I just wish Art could knit it together.

But otherwise, none of this heckling has changed the fact that knitting is not art.

Another shining example of why I dislike discussing art beyond “I liked it, it really moved me,” and “It was total crap, people buy this shit?”

is yoyoing a sport?

If it is, so is kickball

knitting clubs are more dangerous than that hive of killer bees that is the La Leche League.

My wife goes to a stitch ‘n’ bitch. Except she doesn’t stitch. She says it’s devolved to drink ‘n’ bitch.

Knitting as politics. Shoulda known.

I think we can all agree that drinking is an art and a craft.

I think true art works its way up. Finds its way through connections and recognition of talent. Working the angles, making the right contacts and getting it done. The rest of it is either a past time or merchandise.

“True” art? If you had said “good” art or “quality” art I would agree with you. But whether something is “art” or not really doesn’t hinge on whether it is “good” or not.

But otherwise, none of this heckling has changed the fact that knitting is not art.

Several people have provided evidence that many people disagree (and I would assume that the directors and curators of a number of art museums are far more knowledgeable than yourself).

Also, please explain why knitting cannot be art, and yet the MIA, and almost every other art museum in the world include numerous tapestries (among other textile art) in their collections.

But whether something is “art” or not really doesn’t hinge on whether it is “good” or not.

Well, goodis subjective opinion.

What do you have against craft? Does it have to be art to be good?

My original statement–that knitting is not art–was in response to the original MPR story about the 54 million people who knit and want some sort of merit badge for it. This is a hobby, not art. It is not intended as consumption as art, nor is it intended as art.

It is a novel pastime for people who want to think of themselves as “creative.” But this doesn’t make them artists–notwithstanding the valid exceptions that people have pointed out here. (Note: 54 million knitters = not the same thing as museum textile departments.)

The only reason I said that this is not art is because Max had categorized it as such. It was just a glib statement that I tossed off for giggles, though it indicates that I do strongly take exception to our culture’s directive to pat ourselves on our backs just because every Joe, Jim, and Jerry can weave two strings together.

If that attitude is elitist, so be it. There’s too little time to sift through all the crap that people make to care about such hackneyed namecalling.

What do you have against craft?

Why can’t knitting be both?

is yoyoing a sport?

If it is, so is kickball

I would say yoyoing is more a sport than kickball. And kickball is way more a sport than softball.

What do you have against craft? Does it have to be art to be good?

I’ve got nothing against craft. In fact, like Alie said, I would consider craft to be a form of art. It may not be “fine” or “high” art, but it’s a form of art none the less.

And yes, good is subjective, but just because something sucks, doesn’t mean it’s not art. It just means it’s bad art.

And yes, good is subjective, but just because something sucks, doesn’t mean it’s not art. It just means it’s bad art.

Millions of Velvet Elvis painters just high fived each other…hehe!

No freakin’ way. A softball is way harder to catch than a kickball and hurts a lot more if you get smacked by it.

If you can break bones or split your face open by getting hit by the ball, it’s a sport.

Word.

And yes, good is subjective, but just because something sucks, doesn’t mean it’s not art. It just means it’s bad art.

Millions of Velvet Elvis painters just high fived each other…hehe!

I thought I heard something next door.

I once kicked a home-run in kickball. It was the supreme experience of 8th grade. There was a girl I liked in the class, and I still remember her look of awe as I rounded the bases. So kickball is totally a sport.

And knitting is an art, despite arthappy’s contempt and The Rat’s one-two punch of skepticism and false dichotomies. But at the end of the day, few people care if they’re in or out of the imaginary circle you’ve drawn for them. Maybe jazz isn’t music and knitting isn’t art and Buddhism isn’t a religion and Science Fiction isn’t really literature and LiveJournal isn’t really blogging. Jazz musicians, knitters, Budhists, sci fi authors and LJ users go about their business.

But it’s past my bedtime.

And yes, JACC, the knitting has given way to scrapbooking in this household. What else are you going to do with five cats, if you can’t scrapbook their stories?

You say “contempt.” I say “standards.”
Contempt, standards.
Contempt, standards.
Let’s call the whole thing off…