Secrets of the City

This is a really interesting idea, and a good way for old media to tap into an emerging market. I’ll be interested to see how it pans out.

The coolest thing is that you get the widget with constantly updated content, and the blog owner gets to select the category of content they want. You want video, cool, put the video widget on your site. You want news headlines, you can do that. You want “weird news” (aka my stories), you can get that.

Plus some ads, and hopefully I’ll be bored at work, visit your sites, and start clicking like crazy.

< /corporate shilling>

. . . alms for the poor . . . alms for the poor . . .

I think it’s a pretty cool idea; especially since “adult content” only equates to porn and not the occasional swear or NSFW.

I think it has potential. If WCCO/CBS can sell more ad space than they’re generating themselves, why not tap into local bloggers for additional inventory?

Is this about distributing news or ads? I imagine it has more to do with ads than news, really. If it’s about news, give me embeddable content like the Daily Show provides (with ads, fine) so I can pimp DeRusha.

Ed, I’m told they’re working on that right now. So that’s the next step, hopefully in the near future.

This is a pretty rockin’ idea if they can make it work. I would guess that any blogger who has a fair amount of traffic could make some decent beer money.

What would also rock is networking local bloggers and independent media together. That way you could have more control over the $$ you would make… or at least a say.

as if a blog network is going to get $10/cpm. Let’s all be a little real.

And I _sincerely_ doubt CBS, whose Web properties include megasites like CSTV, needs additional inventory.

The real business plan is to clueless bloggers to put up house ads for CBS stations — the prediction here is that there’s a provision for CBS to throw up its own ads for free.

I presume if a blogger doesn’t like it, it’d be pretty easy to take it off your site.

I had a book review blog for a while, with every book title linking to that book on Amazon. If someone bought the book on Amazon after clicking through, I got a kick back. After about a year and a half, I’d sold four books that way and earned a dollar forty-six. (I never did get to the minimum amount to actually have them cut me a check, and now I’ve stopped the whole project.)

I do think a network made up of blog and independent media sites would get a $10/cpm… on the low end.

It’s not about the individual blog, but a collective. I think Minneapolis has a really strong blogger community and CBS is pretty creative to at least try to tap into this.

If CBS wanted to put their ads on blogger sites for free, why wouldn’t they just do it rather than going through the gyrations? Doesn’t make sense, Jeffs.

There have been online networks for years now, it makes sense to incorporate bloggers who manage their blogs consistently and have a loyal following.

“I do think a network made up of blog and independent media sites would get a $10/cpm… on the low end.”

You do realize the average google ad now comes in at about $1/cpm now, right? Exactly what demos are presented by the Minneapolis blog community to justify $10/cpm? Wishful thinking won’t make an ad network successful. Consistently maintaining a blog isn’t an attribute that makes an ad buy attractive to a marketer. Blogads charges $5.34 CPM for Minnesota Monitor, which gets only a portion of that. Heck, a second ad on Daily Kos gets .68/CPM from Blogads, and Kos receives only a portion of that. You’re dreaming if you think a small, limited blog network with questionable demos can get $10/cpm.

I would think if you really want to make money off of ads on a blog, you have to go for the long tail effect… find a blog that has a niche market, and sell ad space to companies that want to target that market. It probably means you have to get in touch with your inner Herb Tarlek and make some calls.

Random stuff (or even word-matched google ads) seems like too much a scatter-shot method.

Kurtis has nailed it regarding the long tail. This is how they’re attempting to get $10/cpm, by aggregating all y’alls.

Also, just for clarity’s sake, Google AdWords does not charge a CPM, only a CPC, and it’s completely market driven. So that avg. $1.00/CPC is the most realistic number out there, since it’s not driven by some unaudited Google internal finance group.

CPM will die in the next five years. I has to. Online CPM is a symbiosis of publishers attempting to rely on a traditional media model and naive advertisers willing to pay it. A big bright light is being shined on that right now, and it’s going to be good for everyone when the model evolves to take full advantage of the web’s accountability.

(Disclosure: I and some really smart creative and technology people just started a new company last week that is putting this problem squarely in our crosshairs. Tell ya more later…)

Aeklund: Isn’t that kinda what we’re all saying? It’s the whole and not the individual. Audience is what advertisers are after and the beauty/madness of the Internet is that you segment audiences simultaneously within the same site.

Publishers have been able to push the CPM model because of the “stickiness” of the environment and then as the audience grew, they were able to talk about simultaneous reach of mass and segment and then prove it. For a number of publisher sites, they were able to show that the CPL/ROI was far lower than much of the traditional media. I don’t know if I would call that naive on the advertisers part. Believe me, advertisers won’t pay for something that isn’t bringing them business.

I know there are a few different rate models being kicked around out there and it’s good that it’s always evolving.

“Also, just for clarity’s sake, Google AdWords does not charge a CPM, only a CPC,”

But it pays out based on CPM, fella. And if you’re running a blog network, you really don’t care how Google charges, but rather how you’re being paid — and Google pays out with CPM as part of the equation. It’s a very handy way for a site publisher to figure out which ad format is paying out the most.

Kurtis is right, but I’m not quite so sure setting up a Minneapolis blog network is the way to do it; exactly what does that offer advertisers and why should they advertise on poorly read sites versus MinnPost or the Strib or MinnMon? Just ask the Bartels about the realities about setting up an ad network.

I’m not a blogger, but I do think that there are blogs out there worth reading.

You’re kinda stuck on the individual blog, Jeffs and the assumption that all blogs are “poorly read”.

If you networked some of the better blogs as well as the the independent news sites, there’s value to the advertiser in that. I’m guessing there aren’t a lot of blogs out there getting more than a few thousand page views in a month. But, I think Ed Kohler said he’s getting over a 100,000. Combine that with MinnPost, Mn, PIM, Daily Planet, Metro, MSP, MNSpeak, etc. – each brings an audience segment and when networked can probably be more than a million page views – not huge compared to the corporate media sites, but I would guess a pretty decent audience.

The thing is, Cat, you’re throwing together a lot of sites that are the antithesis of blogging — like MinnPost, MnMon, MSP — and expecting their traffic to carry the day for the poor little blogs. What the hell do they need to have an ad network with blogs if the blogs aren’t adding traffic AND demographics? Makes no sense at all.

I don’t know that the independent news sites are getting a ton of traffic – outside of MSP and MinnPost maybe. Isn’t MinnPost working with Aaron Gleeman now? Only one example, I know, but I think the days of the us and them philosophy will change – be forced to change and you’ll see more partnering/networking going on with news and bloggers.

Jeffs, you make a pretty big assumption that all blogs are a waste of time. For example, if there are 10 local bloggers who are getting 500+ combined monthly page views, that’s a fair number. Giving the network both traffic AND demographics.

Anyway, it doesn’t make sense to you and that’s fine. I think it’s a little short sighted to discount blogs.

“Jeffs, you make a pretty big assumption that all blogs are a waste of time.”

Where have I said that? Saying it makes little sense to set up an ad netwoerk for Mpls blogs isn’t the same as saying they are a waste of time. You pretty much just set up a dictionary definition of straw-man argument.

Whether it makes sense to participate seems like a valid question… but it doesn’t seem like a waste of time to set up. CBS sets it up nationally… all the ad revenue is new money… and the local cost has to be close to zero, right?

And bloggers who were making zero dollars today have the chance to at least make some dollars tomorrow.

Currently I make zero dollars from my blog and now I’m going to make a million times more!

( 0 x 1,000,000) dollars come to daddy!

Bad choice of words on my part

waste of time = no value

“waste of time = no value “

Well, if they don’t generate page views and desireable demos, of course they are of no value to an advertiser. Duh.

“all the ad revenue is new money”

That’s an assumption, isn’t it? And why do you think someone in NYC selling this ad network will hit someone who wants to hit MPLS readers? This isn’t even a particularly innovative idea (see Village Voice Media’s attempts at national sales, on its netwqork), but it’s never worked, either.

Why do you think they’re selling the network in NYC?

That’s it, Jeffs. You keep saying that blogs don’t generate page views and/or demos, but that’s the generalization you keep making as there is value in some blogs.

Village Voice’s network may not have worked, but most news/corp sites are part of an ad network outside of their network – heh! WCCO, as an example participates in a number of ad networks.

“Why do you think they’re selling the network in NYC?”

Why, indeed? Red McCombs Media (http://www.redmccombsmedia.com/) handles online buys for Ford. Red McCombs Media is in San Antonio. (BTW, the last time we were pitched to be part of a Ford campaign the CPM was $2.65. That’s the state of things on the national front.) Online ad campaigns for Durocell and Ballpark Franks are handled by a Madison marketing agency. Not quite sure you guys know how national online buys are handled, but these days they’re not coming out of NYC. That decentralization is the beauty of the Interwebs.

When Ford or Durocell does a broad-based national campaign, they are looking for sheer numbers and don’t care if a website is physically located in Minneapolis or Manhattan; they are looking for some general site themes, so they won’t go after a general buy. The greatest appeal for a set of MPLS blogs would be a hyperlocal buy (and that’s the value), which is what you see here and on the Rake. But that takes REAL work.

Wow, Jeffs, if you’re only getting a $2/cpm – you must only be working with bulk or remnant buys. Or don’t see the value in your product.

National buys come out of a number of different markets, including NYC.
Kinda weird that you give examples of buys coming out of different markets, but then can’t understand a NYC based sales team selling into other markets. You seem to contradict yourself.

Just because something takes work, doesn’t mean it’s not worth the effort. I don’t know if a blog network would work or not, but to discount something without really considering whether it would work or not, again, seems pretty shortsighted on your part.

I like that CBS is being creative. It’s good to see that they are finally embracing something different rather than staying with the same ole’.

Good discussion. Leave it to the weekends for good debate on the ol’ MNSpeak.

“you must only be working with bulk or remnant buys. “

Well, duh. Exactly what do you expect to be coming out of a national buy put together by CBS? CBS won’t be selling advertising in bulk? Do you really think there will be a personal concierge ad rep selling MSP-based blogs to big Madison Avenue ad agencies? Good lord, the commission on that sort of thing won’t be enough to cover cab fare.

“Kinda weird that you give examples of buys coming out of different markets”

No, it’s not kinda weird at all, as another commenter was touting the advantages of a NYC-based rep team. All of HP, Intel, IBM and Microsoft online marketing bucks come out of San Fran, and those campaigns are in response to requests for proposal: they say who they want to reach with a specific campaign and how many ads served they expect, and the publisher must respond with specifics on how they’d meet the request. Geico comes out of Richmond, Va. Target online marketing, which is currently running a huge national campaign at $1.75 CPM (go to the Strib or NYPost or any large paper for an example), comes out of MSP. My point, which you seem to be stubbornly ignorning, is that a NYC-based rep in this day and age is largely meaningless because of the distributed nature of the Interwebs.

“but to discount something without really considering whether it would work or not”

You know, many could conclude that based on the very specific examples I’ve given here I HAVE considered whether it would work or not. It seems like you’re the one relying on pixie dust and good wishes to make it work. Trying to put together an ad network of largely disparate properties has been a dream of publishers for decades now; it rarely works unless there’s a theme (like Federated) or scale (like Blogads or Google Adsense or Yahoo ads). Just bewause the Intraweb is involved doesn’t automatically make it a workable idea.

And my blog has been rejected for not having “relevant matching content.”

Puzzling about this. On the application, this is what it reads:

Content must be relevant to the WCCO Minneapolis/St. Paul Network, e.g. member Web sites of a politics network must be politics-related in some way.

That is not especially clear. My blog actually has a considerable amount of local content, so I’m not completely certain what, specifically, they are looking for. It wasn’t an enormous amount of time for me to apply for this network, but it was still time I would not have spent had the details of what they are looking for been spelled out in a clearer way. I have a feeling a lot of people are going to get similarly vague rejection notices, some of whom applied based on my suggestion, and I regret doing that.

I signed up on Friday and I wonder if I’ll get the same form letter as you Max, as I have some local content, but not a lot.

I imagine DeRusha sitting in a dimly lit room personally rejecting each application while laughing $10/CPM FOOLS! Bwahahaha hahahaha

You do have a way of talking in circles, Jeffs. If RFP’s are coming out of different markets, then it doesn’t matter where the ad sales teams are – DUH!

Bulk and remnant buys are not the only way that national companies buy online advertising. And I know that Target is paying a lot more than $1.75/cpm. I don’t know who you work for,but Strib for instance, is getting a lot more than a $10/cpm – factoring in the remnant, pre-emptive, etc. buys.

I’m not at all relying on wishful thinking or pixie dust – having a discussion about a blog network and thinking that there are possibilities doesn’t mean I’m running out to get all of the bloggers together.

I’m looking into why Max’s site was rejected. I’m not sure how that works, so I’ll see what I can learn.

All of HP, Intel, IBM and Microsoft online marketing bucks come out of San Fran, … Geico comes out of Richmond, Va. Target online marketing, …comes out of MSP. My point, which you seem to be stubbornly ignorning, is that a NYC-based rep in this day and age is largely meaningless because of the distributed nature of the Interwebs.

Your examples seem to have either a geographical or industry specialty connection. (HP, Intel are all located near SF. It seems that SF might have a concentration of agencies used to working with tech companies like them and MS and IBM. Same for Target using MSP agencies.

So CBS, being based in NYC using a NYC agency wouldn’t seem unusual.

Anyone else think it’s a bit creepy that an anonymous poster would choose this guy for his handle?

I’m looking into why Max’s site was rejected.

We all know the answer to that question, don’t we? You’re a “good soldier,” DeRusha, but CBS’s blatent puppetphobia has been a matter of public record since they canceled Kukla, Fran & Ollie’s Children’s Film Festival.

When will the puppet oppression end?

I actually checked out the deal. It’s not quite as sweet as even I assumed it was.

It’s not a pure ad buy: it’s a sponsored widget. You agree to post a widget to your site, which ALWAYS shows information about the upcoming WCCO TV schedule, and these items are organized by topics (weather, sports, et al). Underneath the widget there’s an ad space, which looks to be garden-variety under-$2 remnant space and sponsored links. So basically you’re holding out hope you’ll be paid for pimping WCCO’s schedule. Nothing wrong with that, but when promises of payment are nonexistent, there’s always reason to be concerned.

To their credit, Pulse 360 is not claiming $10 CPM to bloggers. No idea where THAT number came from, though I wouldn’t be surprised if another case where Jarvis got his data wrong. There’s no NYC-based ad team, no dedicated sales force from CBS. Local stations will sell the ads as well. It’s just another offering from Pulse 360, which has tries (rather unsuccessfully) to set up similar networks with the likes of MSNBC.

Yeah, this is seemingly like it really is a Pulse360 deal, rather than a WCCO deal, which is disappointing if it’s true. A local blog ad network really needs to be done locally. I have been having a hard time finding out much about Pulse360 online that reflects the experience of bloggers in the network, in terms of how satisfied bloggers are with the network, how much they have been paid, etc., so I’m not sure how successful or unscuccessful they are.

I have concerns now, though. As far as I can tell, nobody in the local blogging community has been contacted about this, which seems like a problem if you are planning to actively sell ads that will run on local blogs. There has been a distinct lack of trasparency that concerns me as well, and I’m worried about precisely how local this network actually will be. I’ve seen adevertising markets burned by ad sales people who didn’t understand their product or their market, and I’m worried that mis-selling local blogs would be worse than not selling them at all.

I’ve passed these concerns on to WCCO.

All right, I got a reply as to why my blog was rejected, but no response regarding any of my other concerns.

According to the email I received, one of the poems from a somewhat risque poetry ezine I published in 2000, and am republishing on the site, was too mature for their advertisers. I was concerned about this before I applied, but was assured that the issue was really to avoid hardcore porn.

This was, by the way, not the reason I was given when my site was rejected. Instead, I got an email saying that the site did not have “relevant matching content.”

Interestingly, it sounds as though it took quite a while to track down who specifically rejected my site, and the rejection was made by a non-local based on unpublished criteria — or at least unlinked-to –from Pulse 360.

I suspect quite a few local blogs will fall outside this unclear acceptability margin. Off the top of my head, I would say that content that is as mature as what I have published has appeared on Afterglide, Overheard in Minneapolis, Abysmal Chick, The Deets, A Place Called BLOG, Vlog Santa, The Thrifty Whores, Mediation, Masturbatory Mentation, and Girl Friday. So it seems to me they are applying standards that would actually exclude a sizable percentage of Twin Cities blogs, and without making those standards explicit. Not only does this seem to me to be the work of people who are unfamiliar with the Twin Cities blogging scene, but it displays a real unfamiliarity with blogging in general, and with the Internet.

It sounds as though part of the reason for my blog being excluded was its lack of local content, which suggests to me that the blog was not looked at very closely, as I reckon one in four of my stories has explicit local content — which is a pretty large amount for a Twin Cities blog.

And the concerns I stated earlier, and sent to WCCO, about this being a local blog network created out-of-state by people who are not familiar with local blogging, and who have not contacted local bloggers to see what their needs are, has not been addressed, or the question of transparency and accountability.

I think the Twin Cities really needs a local blog ad network, but, speaking from my own experiences, I doubt this is it.

“…one in four of my stories has explicit local content…”

And therein lies your problem. Why can’t you settle for normal, or even just soft core local content like the other blogs?

I tried adding those blue dots that appear in Japanese adult films to cover naughty bits, but it made my text hard to read.

Can’t you just take out the questionable poem?

I guess we know who won’t be the state’s next poet laureate.

Ahh, apparently I’m full of fairy dust or blog sprinkles so Give me your tired, your poor, your blogged huddled masses yearning to blog free and let’s get this blog network jumpin’.