Secrets of the City

First, a hat tip to max for the B-52’s nod. Brilliant!

MPR sez: “There are several steps before the proposal could become law and it’s not clear if it has enough support to clear both chambers.”

The Shack Attack on the Freedom To Breathe Act gets no Luv from the Gov, either. Pawlenty has already noted (on TPT’s Almanac) that these “shacks” could massive new “smoking additions” to restaurants, bars and clubs.

Been there, done that. folks. We’re done smoking, but still hot. Don’t start building your shacks, barmasters, cause I can’t see this happening this or any other year.

The West Central Tribune, always with its finger on the pulse of Minnesota, offers its opinion.

“They say some bar and restaurant owners have been struggling financially after the state smoking ban went into effect.”

Imagine that.

I don’t see the problem with smoking shelters. Most of the ones I’ve seen don’t even have any walls.

I’m not against them either. Employees are not allowed to serve food or beverages in them. Since the whole point was to save employees from second hand smoke, this shouldn’t be a problem.

And they could just put size and construction material limits on them to keep from having huge structures.

I’m surprised they’d need permission to give smokers their depressing little smoking ghetto.

Not to be a wet blanket on the idea, but some of us, especially in urban environments, do not have land on which to build said shack.

Not that it’s all about me. I understand no law is perfect, there will always be haves and have nots. I get that.

I guess my point is, if you’re passing a law to grant relief to some, make sure it is not causing unintended hardship others.

One thing I will say about a total ban is that it seems to hit every bar the same way. We suffered during year one when only MPLS had a ban, due to our proximity to STP. NE suffered until the statewide ban killed the juggernaut that was Star Central (The Star Bar) in Columbia Heights.

Divide and conquer, Bob. Brilliant!

Since the whole point was to save employees from second hand smoke, this shouldn’t be a problem.

Exactly. Though we all know it really passed because smoking is icky.

I don’t see the problem with smoking shelters. Most of the ones I’ve seen don’t even have any walls.

That’s because what you have seen are already allowed under the FTBA, which clearly spells out what an outdoor smoking area (aka patio) is. Why so much detail? I offer the example of the The Saloon’s “patio,” which is, in fact, little more than an attached smoking room.

And they could just put size and construction material limits on them to keep from having huge structures.

Or, as aliecat noted, provide cover and shelter for smokers using the provisions already available in FTBA. You gotta ask yourself — “Is this change really necessary?” –

Well, bob, I know Al’s got in trouble for allowing smoking in their detatched garage, even though there was no waitstaff out there at all, so you gotta wonder, when’s enough enough for the bannerites?

Although, there’s barely any waitstaff in Al’s main bar, so there ya go…

Divide and conquer, Bob. Brilliant!

Thank you. I’ll stop by the Sportsman to say thanks with my dollar soon. Have you finished installing the new windows up front?

The Star Bar is the same lousy little bar it always was. When in my old CH neighborhood, I prefer to visit Dick’s or the VFW. I miss the old 500 Club and their Kielbasa Days (sigh).

I’m not getting what the fuss is about. I understand the Clean Air Act, but if employees are not exposed and the people who are in the “shacks” choose to be there… ?

I was all for not smoking inside bars and restaurants because of the workers, but this seems to go too far. It hits the “you’re not the boss of me” nerve.

Come on Bob. Allowing smoking shacks will make it that much easier for you to achieve your inevitable goal of banning smoking within 1000ft of the bar’s doorway.

I love Al’s Garage-Shack and the characters that I meet there. It’s like no other. Don’t take Al’s Garage-Shack away.

Cat: The language of the amendment is too vaguely worded. It opens the door to abuse of law — like the case of AL’s aliecat talked about — that would ultimately put workers health at risk.

Once these buildings are up, just how long do you think before wait staff is in there taking orders, cleaning up, serving customers?

This ammendment has little purpose but to try to undermine FTBA. That’s why it was tacked onto a larger bill late in the evening (near midnight), with little debate. That’s very different than FTBA, which went through 19 public hearings and 109 amendment efforts, all done by the light of day, with plenty of input from the public and interested parties, such as bar owners.

Bob, there were never any workers in the garage. You had to get your own drink.

Allowing smoking shacks will make it that much easier for you to achieve your inevitable goal of banning smoking within 1000ft of the bar’s doorway

Can you find one example of me ever saying that? No? Say goodbye, jimn.

Bob, there were never any workers in the garage. You had to get your own drink.

I stand corrected.

Speculation Bob. I doubt I’m that far off.

19 public hearings and 109 amendment efforts

Do you really think this smoking shack thing needs anywhere close to that much debate? Great use of public money.

I don’t know, I would think there are more pressing issues. The few smoking huts I’ve seen are just that and not an extension of the bar.

I suppose, like all things, abuse will happen, but you can’t tell me there aren’t bars in little towns across MN that don’t look the other way when someone lights up in the bar.

This seems like a good alternative. People aren’t necessarily going to stop smoking because you give them fewer places to do so.
Arguments of why the shacks shouldn’t be allowed seem hollow.

I finally stopped caring and sided with bob on the smoking ban, but I only did so because of the “protect the workers” argument, and so now I’m with the people who are pointing out that these are places with no workers.

That having been said, is anyone concerned that having a few dozen bar owners hastily put up wooden shacks outside their bars will be something of an eyesore?

I’ll bet I’m not far off on my speculation about you, either, jimn. Under that crusty exterior lies a crusty interior.

BTW, most of those hearings and amendments were attempts to kill or weaken the bill, virtually all of them failed, as this latest attempt will likely fail.

I finally stopped caring and sided with bob

My wife said the same thing when we got married.

I think large groups of people smoking on sidewalks are also eyesores.

My employer just made all the smokers smoke in one little place on the side of the building. Before they were all smoking at the tables in the front. It looks so much nicer now that they are all hidden.

I’m fine with open air smoking patios, even in winter.

but for god’s sake, why didn’t the kitty cat klub ever turn on their heat lamps? they had them out all winter, but either the gas canisters were empty or something, because they were never once on. I tried to turn them on myself, but to no avail.

Anyway, I don’t really see the harm in smoking shacks or whatever if no one has to go in there that doesn’t want to. It’s like you’re just pissed at people for smoking in general, no matter where they do it, bob.

It looks so much nicer now that they are all hidden.

That doesn’t smack of fascism or anything.

Also, my empoyer recently banned all smoking from ‘the campuses.’

Which means we have to go out to the sidewalk for one facility and smoke there, or for the others walk out into the suburban neighbourhood nearby and smoke there. I’m sure they love us. I guess some people just smoke in their cars, but that is apparently questionable, esp. with the windows down. Seriously, like a thousand people driving their cars god knows how far for work doesn’t do more harm to my lungs?

People aren’t necessarily going to stop smoking because you give them fewer places to do so.

Actually, they do.

Also consider the case of California, smokefree for more than a decade, with less than 15% adult smoking rate — one of the lowest in the nation. Minnesota (now) is anywhere from 20-23 percent. I will be interested to see what happens to these numbers in the next statewide health survey.

Under that crusty exterior lies a crusty interior.

I don’t smoke, if that’s what your speculating.

Ya, Bob, and look where that got her. Now she’s Mrs. Lungs. Doesn’t even have her own public identity.

19 public hearings and 109 amendment efforts, all done by the light of day,

If memory serves, the bill actually passed the House well into the night, probably around the same time Bud’s smoke shack amendment passed, which was before the kill-all-ethanol amendment failed, btw, bob.

Note to Kit Kat Klub: Turn on your heaters, wayne is cold. I’m not pissed at anyone, wayne, least of all smokers. I likes my smoker friends.

then leave us somewhere to smoke!

I get what you’re saying Bob, but I would argue that the ban is one of the reasons why people quit, but not the only reason.

California doesn’t count because they’ve never been a big smokey smoke state and they just swapped smoking for prescription drugs and cosmetic surgery. They should concentrate on how they are going dispose of all of that hazardous waste from all of the cosmetic surgery when they die.

Oh, and since I quit smoking (ok, I occassionally smoke – especially after a killer run), I have found that a lot of people lie about their smoking habits.

it’s easier to quit smoking in california, because with all the smog in the air it doesn’t feel that different to breathe.

here there’s that gross fairly clean air and it makes you start coughing all the stuff up out of your lungs.

Escape to Wisconsin, wayne.

That doesn’t smack of fascism or anything.

Actually, we have a lot of people with various disabilities in our building. My understanding there were at least two medical emergencies triggered by the smoke near the front doors.

And how is facism to say they have to smoke around back in a designated area?

The adult smoking rate in California before the law was passed was 22.8 percent, Cat. Not the highest in the nation, but like MN, in the middle of the pack.

So, does this smokers shack require anyone to clean up anything ever? I’m just curious.

So, does this smokers shack require anyone to clean up anything ever? I’m just curious.

Wait, in this smoke shack does anything ever need to be cleaned up?

Damn you, Blackberry. Sorry ’bout that.

but you can’t tell me there aren’t bars in little towns across MN that don’t look the other way when someone lights up in the bar.

I was in what has to be one of the most remote bars in MN last fall. I was sure that people would still be smoking inside. Nope. All the smokers were huddled outside the door. Just like downtown.

Bixby: they simply burn it down every night and build a new one in the morning from scrap lumber and packing crates.

True dat, miller. All in all, complience with FTBA was been very good.

Bixby: they simply burn it down every night and build a new one in the morning from scrap lumber and packing crates.

Given how hard our lumber and construction industries have been hit by the economic downturn, I’d say the smoke shack bill is a jobs bill.

Some east coast airport–maybe Pittsburgh or Hartsfield? Or was it Midway?–has a smoking lounge where all the smokers can go, be inside, and smoke. It’s on a concourse so you’re seeing this big windowed room as you walk by.

I remember this because it was by far the saddest sight I’ve ever seen. It was filled with blue haze, all the 50 or so addicts puffing away in this filthy, smoky disgusting room. And you know you would spend 3 minutes in there and you’d need to run through a car wash to get the rank out of your clothes and hair. I cannot imagine anyone wanting to venture in there, voluntarily.

It was foul. For real.

Here’s a nice shack for an Uptown bar. Like everyone in the neighborhood, it leans to the left.

Because it’s so difficult to vent a smoke shack before cleaning. all that … ash? is hazardous to health now too?

no more fire pits! no more fireplaces! no more fire in general!

also cut it out with your goddamend BBQs! I don’t care how delicious it tastes, it puts out smoke!

You want sad, go to the smoking shack outside the VA hospital in Minneapolis.

actually I went in a smoking lounge in the SLC airport while I had a layover, and the fans had such a powerful suck that I barely could enjoy my delicious death before it was pulled from my lungs and into the vent.

they also kicked everyone out every twelve hours for an hour to clean it.

it really wasn’t that bad.

One of the terminals at LAX has a tiny outdoor lounge where you have a lovely view of the tarmac past the 12-foot high bars. Mm, jet fuel and camels.

I am not the Anti-Promethius, wayne. Actually, some fireplaces are very clean and efficient. It’s called sealed-combustion, direct-vent.

I don’t mind smoking outside (I don’t love it), but I wish people (i.e. total strangers who come up to me) would mind their own damn business and save the stop smoking lecture for someone who cares.

Well, you heard it from wayne: smoking lounges suck!

The debate is over.

I don’t mind smoking outside (I don’t love it), but I wish people (i.e. total strangers who come up to me) would mind their own damn business and save the stop smoking lecture for someone who cares.

Are you sure it’s not because you’re just such a hot chick? Seriously, you get a lot of that?!? Never from me…

no one ever tells me to stop smoking

but then I am a relatively unintesting looking fellow (if only they knew!)

You would be surprised at the amount of people who think it’s OK to come up to me on my break or whatever and heckle me about smoking. Seriously, the next person who does it is going to get the business end of my Parliment up their ass.

That is terribly rude and uncalled for (them, not you) aliecat.

They put windows in at the Sportsman? (or now sportys)
I hate change.

It cracks me up about all the misinformation about second hand smoke. It’s all BS. The tobacco companies sued the EPA in Fedral Court back in 1998 and the judge ruled that the EPA had “cherry-picked” and used unscientific methods and standards to achieve their all ready preconceived conclusions on smoking and second hand smoke. If you do a little checking you can find “the other side of the story.” Basically, there’s a lot of money to be made ($246 billion in the first 25 years of the tobacco settlement), cigarette tax revenue through the roof, and grants and donations that are made to the “anti-smoking” nazi’s. Second hand smoke is a nuisance at best. I hope that all you that are so shook up about breathing a little smoke don’t care that the fifth ammendment got thrown out the window when the government made something legal (smoking) that was done on private property–illegal, with false information and hysteria. All you anti-smoking pansy’s are “useful idiots” and should lighten up a little bit. You have no idea of the slippery slope you’ve put us in when it comes to private property and the freedom of association. And as for saving the workers from the effects of second hand smoke (there are none!)–I guess you don’t have to worry about as many of them because they are losing their jobs because of revenue loss. Minnesota Pansy’s!!!

A smoking shack is just the excuse I’ve been seeking.

Now I can fulfill my lifelong dream of being an angry yet approachable hobo.

Parliment, alicat?

Let’s do this Parliment instead. See the funny white folk dance.

You would be surprised at the amount of people who think it’s OK to come up to me on my break or whatever and heckle me about smoking. Seriously, the next person who does it is going to get the business end of my Parliment up their ass.

I just quit but it always pisses me off when people think they can tell you what to do. The best approach to your problem is to let that person know that they are fat and that kills just as many people as smoke. Ban the fat asses they cost the health care system to much.

Thanks for the thoughtful satire Mr. “Cancer-Face” Wlinkl!

And Yum…MINNESOTA PANTIES!!!

So what if I told someone they were an insufferable suburban asshole and that kills off just as many people, swanny?

Swandog, I usually just act like I’m HOH and make them repeat themselves about 5 times. It’s funny to see how loud people will yell.

Bob, parliaments are the closest to Camel Specials as I can find…but I did just switch to ultra lights.

@aliecat – I suggest carrying a cat or five around. You’ll know what to to when approached.

Swandog, I usually just act like I’m HOH and make them repeat themselves about 5 times. It’s funny to see how loud people will yell.

I clearly need to stop watching Big Brother because I thought you were trying to make them think you were Head of House.

Good grief, me.

It cracks me up about all the misinformation about second hand smoke. It’s all BS.

Okay. Let’s say that’s true, which I somehow doubt. All I know is that when I go out to bars now, I get home feeling less shitty than when I used to breathe smoke. As a musician, singing in smoky bars sucked. Running the next day sucked. Without second (or first for that matter) hand smoke, I know that I feel significantly better.

So science be damned! I know what I know.

And Yum…MINNESOTA PANTIES!!!

No doubt you prefer to wear them; and who says I’m a smoker. I am just tired of people getting hysterical and at the same time being holier than thou and not, at least, looking over both sides of the issue (e.g. global warming, gas prices, and national health care) and how it effects us, the everyday Joe’s.

Get over yourself “iron-lungs.” and change your name to “bone head.”

Better yet–”Pansy” Johnson

I used to get the “dirty filthy smoker” glare, but I didn’t smoke a lot at work or in public so not a lot of experience there.

The real lectures came when I fell off a 2nd story balcony and broke my leg — went out to have a smoke, got locked out, tried to climb down and fell.

So my story is a good example of why smokers should be allowed to smoke in shacks – it keeps them safe!

Now I want Max to tie something to the lyrics of this song. (Lobster Roll)

All I know is that when I go out to bars now, I get home feeling less shitty than when I used to breathe smoke. As a musician, singing in smoky bars sucked. Running the next day sucked. Without second (or first for that matter) hand smoke, I know that I feel significantly better.

That’s probably true, but my point is that if you worked at some factory that used a chemical that made you feel shitty (but was safe, legal to use, and had been around for hundreds of years) would you think that you should get a new job or would lobby the government to go into the factory and make the owner (who’s invested a lot ot time and capital into his business) to change how he runs his business no matter what the cost is to him and his customers. Or would you start your own business and find employees’s and customers who don’t want to use that particular chemical. My point is that we are screwing ourselves out of our fifth amendment rights and not realizing the consequence.

PS: I don’t smoke either!

That’s probably true, but my point is that if you worked at some factory that used a chemical that made you feel shitty (but was safe, legal to use, and had been around for hundreds of years)

Bozos like this with no understanding of the laws or science are the ones spewing half truths and outright lies that muddle the debate.

OSHA exposure limits are usually far to the safe side for exposure. If a chemical is making you feel ill at your factory job you are likely being exposed to something way above the OSHA PEL.

@ wlinkl: but if you are undertrained, and the server job or the toxic factory job is the only game in town? You deserve protection. This is why people fought for workplace rights and protections.

You’re probably too young to see that bigger picture here. I mean that in a nice, “pat on the head there sonny”, kind of way.

I mean that in a nice, “pat on the head there sonny”, kind of way.

@brilliant! So you mean it in one of those uber-condenseding ways that requires just how uber-condesending you’re actually being gets pointed out?

That’s brilliant.

Though, I don’t think anyone likes the “pat on the head there sonny”.

Re: Worker Safety – I notice coal mines are still open and Black Lung Disease still kills.

Swandog, I usually just act like I’m HOH and make them repeat themselves about 5 times. It’s funny to see how loud people will yell.

Less so when it’s people you actually want to talk to.

No offense meant, mnblrmkr…but actually, most days I do wish I was HOH.

“Bozos like this with no understanding of the laws or science are the ones spewing half truths and outright lies that muddle the debate.”

“If a chemical is making you feel ill at your factory job you are likely being exposed to something way above the OSHA PEL.”

First off “simpleshit” you, apparently, have no understanding of laws either. I won’t waste time reiterating the fifth admendment. But what about people who get nauseated from the smell of perfume. Does that mean the offender is “Way above the OSHA PEL.” and the government needs to get involved.

Get real and have a debate on facts or before you know it, government and special interest groups will feed us a bunch of bullshit about the environment and we won’t be able to drill for oil (higher gas prices) and then mandate “alternative” fuels that use a bushel of corn and five gallons of water to make one gallon of an ineffcient fuel (E85) and then force us to use a light bulb that is 10 times more expensive and has mercury in it (2010).

I just ask that people do a little digging and with not much effort you can find out the story behind the anti-smoking hysteria. (Flue tobacco corp. vs EPA).

I would be fine with a smoking ban if we were discussing facts only, but there are so many people making money off of this ban (casino’s-politicians-antismoking lobbies) and so many holier-than-thou types (useful idiots) that I want to throw up!

Yes, I believe I DO know something the court case you mentioned, Wlink.

The presiding judge was William Osteen, of the North Carolina Middle District Court. In 1974 Judge Osteen worked as an industry lobbyist for tobacco growers while a private attorney.

Osteen’s ruling was laughed out of court in 2002. Pro-tobacco activists have been citing it ever since — the first part, that is, not the part where his entire ruling is overturned.

Somthing tells me Wlink’s trying to pick a fight with me. Whatta think, MNspeakers?

I’ll pass, Larry. Besides, when I can beat up a PhD from Stanford and the editor of City Pages, who needs you?

Sounds like Larry is in need of a smoke break.

Oooh, fight fight fight!
Just joshin’.

Everybody’s studies are special interest BS except the corn lobby’s, apparently.

No offense meant, mnblrmkr…but actually, most days I do wish I was HOH.

Trust me, after less than a day, you’d change your mind.

“Blindness cuts us off from things, but deafness cuts us off from people.”
-Helen Keller (apocryphal)

The problems of deafness are deeper and more complex, if not more important, than those of blindness. Deafness is a much worse misfortune. For it means the loss of the most vital stimulus–the sound of the voice that brings language, sets thoughts astir and keeps us in the intellectual company of man.
-Helen Keller, 1910 letter to Dr; Kerr Love

I’ve never wanted to be deaf. However, on many occasions I have wanted other people to be mute.

That’s a fair want.

I never wanted to be blind, except for when I had to look at certain people.

Those are probably the same people who make me impotent.

This is off topic but if (when) Hillary doesn’t get the nomination will this mean that there will actually be no more men in the stands at Lynx games? I, for the life of me, can’t figure out why anyone of any gender is in the stands at at Lynx (or T-wolves) games.

I never wanted to be illiterate, except for when I read some comments on some blogs.

David wins this one, folks.

Maz, mock the corn lobby at your peril.

This is off topic but if (when) Hillary doesn’t get the nomination will this mean that there will actually be no more men in the stands at Lynx games?

The Lynx will launch their Plan B campaign: “A Black in the White House?”

The idea of an African-American President isn’t as new as you might think. It may have been something out of the Twilight Zone in 1972, but Rod Serling wrote the screenplay for “The Man,” staring a young James Earl Jones.

“Somthing tells me Wlink’s trying to pick a fight with me. Whatta think, MNspeakers?

I’ll pass, Larry. Besides, when I can beat up a PhD from Stanford and the editor of City Pages, who needs you?”

Dear “Bob.” I don’t have a clue who you are but it looked like “SparkY” got a good jab at you.

This must be some liberal blog because I noticed that the “guilt by association” comeback is pretty standard here (He used to work for the tobacco industry! Oh no! He has to be corrupt.)

Well, using that logic, I can’t listen to anything you have to say about E85 because, apparently, you are part of “Big Corn.” So, if I pointed out the negatives of bio-fuel and you countered with a logical, common sense response I would still have to recoil in horror and plug my ears because “you have an agenda! You’re part of Big Corn”

Seriously, I have no idea who you are and what you do. I don’t even know how I stumbled onto this site. The bottom line is you sound like a busy body who should spend more time dealing with your “corn-hole” business and spend less time forcing government to mandate things like smoking bans and inefficient fuels that the rest of us have to subsidize.

Apparently, you’re the big fish in this small pond, so I guess I’ll swim downstream and find calmer waters.

BTW: What’s up with the: Somthing tells me Wlink’s trying to pick a fight with me. Whatta think, MNspeakers?

I felt like I was in scene out of Elmer Gantry. Nothing personal but it was kind of “corny.”

I’m Big Lung. Click on the little red arrows, newbie.

Don’t go away. I won’t pick on you anymore…

This must be some liberal blog because I noticed that the “guilt by association” comeback is pretty standard here

Do me a favor, Wlinkl. and don’t make assumptions about the nature of this forum based on the comments of its users. I moderate it, and I don’t really care what people’s politics are, as long as they are civil.

It’s as liberal or a conservative as its users, and most of the posts have no specific political viewpoint, but are instead about TC arts and cultre.

I used to get the “dirty filthy smoker” glare, but I didn’t smoke a lot at work or in public so not a lot of experience there.

Cat, a few weeks ago, I went to the Oasis on Blake Rd to buy some smokes and the clerk actually said to me on my way out: “Enjoy your cancer!”

I was so stunned that I just kind of laughed. Seriously, is there something about me that says I enjoy public abuse?

max, arts and culture have a liberal bias.

OMG Alie: That’s horrible that someone would say that to you, much less some lame Oasis clerk.

It’s probably because you’re more approachable than I am – most people are trying to figure out if I understand english. I guess people aren’t as ready to insult someone if they think the person won’t understand.

Aliecat, is that the Oasis by the basketball academy? That’s by where I played dodgeball.

100! Nothing smokes MNspeak like a good old fashioned smoking post.

Except of one of Bunny’s “arts and culture” posts, of course….

Someone fix me a Edina Screamer, please. Pat her, Pat her…

Cat, I’ve thought that too…maybe I just have one of those “pick on me” faces.

Bix, it’s the Oasis by the Walgreens and the White Castle. Haven’t gone back since.

“OMG Alie: That’s horrible that someone would say that to you, much less some lame Oasis clerk. “

Hmmm…sounds like a scene from “Juno.”

You should have told that dbag that you hope he enjoys his second hand smoke and then lit up at the counter.

Bob- I’m looking forward to two trips back to the Better Dakota (i.e. SD) and enjoying a delicious cig inside The Top Hat this summer. I’ll blow a smoke ring just for you!

Bix- man, I thought of a bunch of good comebacks in the car on my way home. Dontcha just hate that?

No, I never have that problem. I typically stand there awkwardly until a good comeback comes to mind. Or if I must leave, while away run through a list of potential comeback’s until I find a good one and then return to deliver it.

I’ll never feel that 7th grade regret school bus regret again!

I always have a comeback – many times just as lame as the insult, but I can’t seem to help myself – I have no filter and things just blurt outta my mouth.

I love SD for it’s seemingly backwards ways. Smoking and underage drinking while driving is one of my fave pastime…

Stop! I’m so kiddin’. Ok, not really.

Alie, feel free to use my favorite stand-by… “Die in a fire”.

Gets the point across.

mb21, I always thougth “blow me” was effective as well.

max, arts and culture have a liberal bias.

REALITY has a liberal bias.

And that’s why I don’t like my tax dollars going to fund reality.

Final post-session word on this old post — the “Smoking Shack” idea went nowhere, as did this atempt to kill the statewide smoking ban.