Secrets of the City

if she were still around, this would make her so not cool to hang with.

also not to make (too much) light, but if anyone wants to buy me a steady stream of drinks I promise not to prosecute!

I don’t know the girl who died, but I’m going to out on a limb and assume that if she could speak from the grave she would tell her parents, please don’t sue my friends.

Maybe her friends should counter sue the parents for not teaching their daughter how to respect alcohol and drink responsibly.

Would peer pressuring your friend into hooking up with not-hotties after you have fed him a ton of booze be an even worse offense? If so I should pack the bags and leave the country.

Is anyone here a lawyer? Does this case have any chances?

I think these parents are totally wrong in suing their daughters friends over the death of their daughter, the bar maybe, but even that needs to be investigated. Who chose to go out drinking this evening, their daughter. I’m sure it wasn’t her first time. Most kids take their first drink before they finish high school. Some do it even younger. I’m sure she knew that she shouldn’t be drinking as much as she did. What are her friends guilty of, poor judge perhaps, but nothing more unless they were pooring it into her mouth. She needed to take some responsibility for her own actions. This is something many people young and old have a hard time doing. I’m sure her friends very pretty drunk as well. Where were the parents a few years before this when it comes to educating their children about drinking. Why blame her friends when she is the one who chose to drink that night. When you get a lot of college kids together and they are drinking anything can happen. They don’t have the experiance they need to deal with these drinking issues.

You know, at first I thought this was a rediculous lawsuit, then I red in the story that Jax asked them to stop feeding her drinks. What kind of asshole friends keep pouring shots down a person’s throat after they’re that shit faced? It’s that kind of “no really means yes” situation that pisses me off.

I feel as though there is a larger social problem right now, in that Americans in general, and young drinkers in particular, are just outrageous binge drinkers. And, honestly, that sort of drinking moves very quickly past socially pleasurable and into the realm of peeing on the sidewalk, vomiting in the backseat of the car, and spending the night hoping the room stops spinning, which is pretty antisocial. Worse, people who drink like that go from being friends to being problems — you have to fight with them to keep them from driving, for instance. And a percentage of them are going to die.

I’s a drinking man, and I just don’t understand who sees this sort of reckless binge drinking as fun.

vlado, it depends on if they “induce [you] through means of mind-altering substances to violate the no-fat-chicks clause (§132.10.5 of the General Hook-Up Statutes)”

red = read…fuuuccck

Drinking Story from UMN Campus:

I am at a house part on a second floor balcony with about 10 people. More are drinking inside. All of us underage. I am fairly wasted when the cops come with 3 cop cars and bust the party hard core. They come to the balcony /porch on the second floor. They tell us to get in line for breathalyzing.

Everyone stars piling inside through the balcony door. I am last in line. At the last moment I jump over the balcony into the back yard and ran away.

Should’ve sued my friends for the hard-core bruises incurred to my hands, knees, face. Note to self: don’t jump from 16 feet while intoxicated.

amen, max. take it slow and easy and actualy enjoy the brain damage. seeing how much you can down is not only a waste of money, but potential enjoyment.

moral of the story: only jump 16 feet down when sober.

You know, at first I thought this was a rediculous lawsuit, then I red in the story that Jax asked them to stop feeding her drinks. What kind of asshole friends keep pouring shots down a person’s throat after they’re that shit faced? It’s that kind of “no really means yes” situation that pisses me off.

Alie, that is so the status quote in college now. Get your friends fucked up as much as possible and then laugh at them when they are all wasted. As a recent undergrad, I have been both on the recieving and giving end of this phenonmenon.

I regret the potential health damage that I may have incurred through a lot of drinking in college. But at least I am experienced now to drink in moderation….

Did you see the picture of her friends? They looked like 200 pound guys. A 100 pound woman cannot drink as much as a 200 pound guy. She should have said no. They should be sued. Maybe then they’ll realize that not everybody is a 200 pound dunder head jock.

No they should not be sued.

Since when is it illegal to peer pressure someone?? Seriously, what are we coming to in this nanny-state?

Also the parents should be sued for not teaching their kids how to handle alcohol or perhaps not to drink at all.

The bar owners and staff are going to be on the hook for overserving.

If I remember correctly, Jax already had 2 DUIs, her friends said they had seen her drink more than that night on several occasions, and she passed out and had to be taken care of on a regular basis. That’s alcoholism. If mom wants to blame the friends, that’s understandable, but a trial is only going to bring out more of this not-so-flattering information.

Plus, suing college kids with no money is a real waste of time.

At first I thought it was stupid to sue as well, but then in the article it talked about the fact that we don’t have an obligation to save someone who is drowning, but we do have an obligation to save that person if we helped to push them in the water.

These kids clearly helped push Amanda Jax towards death.

The moral question is more interesting. In my job, I talk with parents who’ve lost loved ones to tragic circumstances. There’s a real disconnect with parents of college kids and the reality of what the college kids are doing. Parents of college kids think of their children as they were in high school. So it’s not surprising that they want to blame others for killing their angel. It is sad, though. I imagine the friends of Amanda Jax will torture themselves for the rest of their lives, wishing they had lived that night differently.

The part that resonated with me, in the story, is the fact that they didn’t call 911 till she was dead. If just one of them had called when they got home she still would have been alive. It’s a shame that kids go to college to get smart, but are still so stupid.

The bar owners and staff are going to be on the hook for overserving.

The bar is already closed after the city yanked their license. I’ll bet it wasn’t their first violation of the law.

My opinion is that the friends should not be sued. This girl made her own decision to drink and continue drinking. If she didn’t know her own limits, that is her issue.
The other thing I was thinking about is that this family is going to sue. Okay, do they know what kind of light that will bring their daughter into? This girl obviously had a heavy drinking problem (possibly among other things.) She had two previous dwi situations, and was that before age 21? Her character is really going to get drug through the mud during this trial. Her previous encounters with the law will be looked at heavily, her friends will more than likely testify and everything she’s ever done will be made public. Probably not the best way to have to remember a deceased family member.

My 20 years nephew and his friend are staying with me this weekend to go to 3 nights of Umphrey’s McGee at First Ave. I am super paranoid about anything happening and me being responsible for them.

Shannon makes a great point — the only defense these friends have to use is “our friend was already a thunderous drunk,” which is going to force them to highlight any possible prior bad acts, aka getting two DWIs while underage, the fact that she maybe had a fake ID, etc. Are the parents ready to hear that kind of thing and have the media report on it? The gal drank herself to death, which is sad, but suing her friends isn’t going to change anything.

first ave is fairly responsible about people getting to drunk. they’re kind of hard-asses about enforcing drinking age, and they don’t seem to blush at kicking people out for various reasons (including, I imagine, being too drunk).

In fact, one night I was hanging outside waiting for my ride and one of the bouncer/doorguys was trying to find someone who knew a really drunk girl a way home because she was in a bad place. I think he may have even been trying to get ahold of her parents or something?

Anyway, of the places to go out, first ave is probably not one you’ll die at.

Welcome to America, leave personal responsibility at the door. It’s not your fault, ever!

Yeah, because thunderous drunk = 2 DWI’s. I think you need to have at least 4 before that distinction. Listen, I know lots of kids that drank a lot in college because they were out of their parent’s grasp, but pretty much got over the binge drinking once they turned 21 and were able to grab a beer on a Tuesday afternoon if they wanted to. Yeah, they abused alcohol, but I wouldn’t call them alcoholics.

Wayno, you are probably right– My friend and I went there one night and the bouncer took one look at her and put 2 huge black X’s on her hands so she couldn’t get served anymore. She was so embarrassed.

Yes, and those same kids that drank a lot in college all came extremely close to death or damage. They were just lucky.. I know this frome experience. I don’t know how I didn’t kill myself binging and then drunk biking myself home….

Let’s face it, the person responsible for this is Jax. Why do people always have to blame someone else….

And 2 DWIs at 21 is quite high.

Shannon is totally right. I hope the parent’s lawyer had a serious conversation where they were informed of how ugly it’s going to be.

Of course: if they win, this lawsuit could change the way we behave while drinking with our friends.

I didn’t say she WAS a thunderous drunk, I said that’s the defense those friends are going to have to resort to. Taking the dead gal’s character to task is going to be an unfortunate byproduct of this lawsuit. Regardless, two DWIs before you’re of legal drinking age doesn’t exactly scream “responsible around alcohol.”

And remember that her friends were drunk as well. Who hasn’t had totally shitty judgement when drunk?

When you train to bartend, you are told that you are responcible for your patrons and could possibly face criminal charges. I mean, it’s kind of obvious, right? That’s why I can’t bartend anymore. (plus I sort of suck at it)

Of course: if they win, this lawsuit could change the way we behave while drinking with our friends.

So, no more house parties at the DeRusha house? Damn…

achick: Nice tits and nipples

this had better still be up when I get home today.

I’m serious.

yeah, DeRusha, we got overserved! Well, alie maybe. I was secretly grabbing abandoned glasses off the table and chugging them. WhaT? I can quit any time I want!

Thanks vlado4, but I must admit I found that pic after googling nipples. Haha, googling nippes. But give and inch or two and I’d say reasonable facsimilie?

I’ve always wanted to live in Maple Grove. Watch yer back, DeRusha!

I can’t imagine the grief (and, I would guess, guilt) that the parents of the deceased feel, but I am stunned that they decided to file the civil suits against her friends. Their dear deceased daughter was clearly no angel, and now her name is going to be further dragged through the mud and her checkered past of alcoholic misbehavior is going to be put up for public scrutiny by the defense attorneys, and I frankly can’t see any benefit for bringing the suit…other than financial gain. Not a great trade-off if you ask me. Let the poor girl R.I.P.

..and now her name is going to be further dragged through the mud…

You’d think she was a serial killer when you talk like that. She was (most likely) an alcoholic. That’s a mental illness.

And no benefit besides financial gain? Like Jason said, if the family wins, maybe some people will alter their behavior when encouraging their friends to drink. That might be a worthwhile trade off.

She was most definitely an alcoholic. And I’ll bet you a paycheck that there’s plenty of enabling that was done by others (parents and other relatives included) besides the friends with her on that fateful evening.

If it gets kids to reassess binge drinking, great (I have my doubts). But it’s most certainly going to provide the family the exact opposite of closure…it’s just going to be a huge reopining of the wound.

I feel as though there is a larger social problem right now, in that Americans in general, and young drinkers in particular, are just outrageous binge drinkers.

i think that’s true, and falls in line with the way american behavior has changed in general. it seems everything is a competition now to see who can be the most outrageous, loudest, brashest, etc. it’s like people are screaming “LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME” all the time. i hate it and wish it would stop.

She will look bad in the public eye, no doubt about it. Look at the celebrities who run around these days and party. They, to most of the population, look like train wrecks who can’t keep it together. No they aren’t serial killers, but they aren’t living lives that benefit them, their friends, family, etc. The public will scrutinize this girl and the parents will learn things they didn’t know. It will be ugly. I also seriously doubt if the family wins there will be a wide spread college age drinking behavior change. Seriously? Bars will go on serving, kids will go on drinking. The case will be forgotten in a year if not less and only those close to the victim, family, and friends will remember what happened. Let’s be realistic. The lawsuit is pointless.

FREE PARIS!

Hilton is the new Mandela.

I remember seeing some interviews with her friends.

When asked why they didn’t stop Jax from drinking so much a female friend said Jax was a major alcoholic and that she was drunk like that almost every night of the week.

It’s going to be ugly.

Is there a legal precedent for this? I seem to recall some situations with fraternities where new recruits drunk themselves to death during hazings, but those lawsuits seem as though they were against the fraternity itself, and not against individual students. And, if the case is based on the girl being too drunk to make decisions for herself, and her friends were also drunk, weren’t they also too drunk to be held responsible for their decisions?

This just doesn’t seem like a good case.

If the friends knew she was an alcoholic, providing her drinks could potentially be seen similarly to handing a person making threats of suicide a loaded handgun.

If the friends knew she was an alcoholic, providing her drinks could potentially be seen similarly to handing a person making threats of suicide a loaded handgun.

Not an accurate analogy as most alcoholics can handle way more booze than non-alocoholics.

Unless you think handing anyone a drink is like handing them a loaded shotgun . . .

I think this lawsuit is absolute sh*t…the bar deserves it yes, the friends????

How are the parents not just as negligent as the friends. They were unaware of their daughters problems?

I lived with people who told me to “check on them in the morning” unfortunately binge drinking, is many times a part of growing up…it allows you to find your limits. Obviously this poor young woman pushed her limits too far, too often and tragically lost her life.

“in that Americans in general, and young drinkers in particular, are just outrageous binge drinkers.”

I can agree with the “young” part, but the Brits, Germans, and even Greeks give Americans a run for their money. I’ve been in situations with all of the above, where I left thinking, “Those fuckers are insane!”

One of the friends told police that she had seen Jax drunk 100 times in the past year. It’s ugly already.

Not to mention Australians. Man, those guys can drink.

“in that Americans in general, and young drinkers in particular, are just outrageous binge drinkers.”

Never try to out drink a Russian.

No, I don’t, but didn’t her friends say it was very common for her to not stop drinking until she had passed out? That type of drinking habit is risky, even for an alcoholic.

Is it unreasonable to ask a jury to decide if her friends knew, or should have known that encouraging someone with her drinking habits to drink as she did carried significant risk?

The parent of this kid are very up set. I hope they have some Friends that tell them that this is a terrible idea. One could argue that they are poor parents that raised a drunk. It is the girls fault for drinking to much legally and it is her responsibility for her to understand the risks. However, morally this is completely wrong of her friends not to have helped her. You wonder if the people she was with were really her friends. I have sisters and drinking with a bunch of drunk guys is a very dangerous move, nothing good comes of it. It would be nice to think that people watch out for each other but they don’t in this day and age and that is a shame. With friends like that who needs enemies. I hope the parents can move on some of the anger I believe is misplaced guilt. By the way I know mankato very well and drinking is something that is part of the town. Not everyone drinks, but those that do, drink drink hard it is part of a smaller town culture. At one time it seemed that people watched out for each other in kato but the town has changed and it is not as small as it once was. It is to bad that a different element has moved in. When I was a kid you would party hard but would always make sure people were ok, it saddens me that this has changed.

Is it unreasonable to ask a jury to decide

I guess not. If it is the case will be tossed before it goes to court.

What seems unreasonable is rather than grieving, the family appears to be choosing some sort of vengeance as closure.

In the process they are going to get a very tarnished memory of their loved one and possibly learn a lot about their daughter they may not have wanted to know.

And so will everyone that follows the news.

Yes, it’s unreasonable.

If the family had any common sense, they’d let their daughter rest in peace rather than even risk the stories that a trial could dredge up.

I think it is unreasonable. These kids are 21 and at college. They are partying and drinking. Each person is responsible for themselves. If this girl didn’t understand when it was time to quit drinking, that is simply her fault. She could have said, “I can’t drink anymore,” and I doubt her friends would have pushed it or thought any less of her. They too were drinking, that clouded their judgement as well. We all make choices. Oh the beauty of freewill. What we do with it is on us. SHE took it too far.

Back in bud jr.’s day, we drank beer. Lots of beer.

(Still do).

Today, these kids drink hard liquor, which is deadly when consumed in the manner that Jax and her “friends” did.

It’s virtually impossible to drink yourself to death on beer.

Beer is good.

Dumbass 21 year olds downing shots, not so much.

I think this lawsuit is absolute sh*t…the bar deserves it yes, the friends????

It is going to be hard to prove the bar is at fault. If she was drinking before she got there they may be off the hook. If they can prove that the bartender knowingly served her they are in trouble, it is harder to prove than you think. No one is going to go to trial over this. A good lawyer on either side knows this is a hard thing to prove. By

Actually, let’s look back at the events: The friends knew how much she had drank; they saw her becoming increasingly intoxicated and out of control; they continued to supply her with drinks anyway.

At whatever point it had become dangerous, Jax was in no condition to stand up let alone piece together a coherent thought. And at the point, her friends became negligent. In fact, legally they could be charged with second-degree manslaughter, though proving that in court would be incredibly difficult for any case like this, and any attorney knows that.

609.205 MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.
A person who causes the death of another by any of the following means is guilty of
manslaughter in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than ten
years or to payment of a fine of not more than $20,000, or both:
(1) by the person’s culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and
consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another

And though I haven’t read any comments from their attorney, I am guessing she/he told the parents that proving that all of the parties “consciously” took the risk and “consciously” took the chances of causing death would be difficult. You’d have to prove that each one knew that drinking too much COULD kill her. And if one gets off, it could be said that all should.

It’s a sticky case. But I for one moment do not believe she was totally responsible for her own death OR that binge drinking is anything new. It’s just in the media more because the media has become more alarmist and sensationalist.

I got my law degree from MNSpeak U! Online degrees are all the rage these days.

I almost passed the bar, but the wifi signal I was stealing to take the online test died in the middle. Bummer.

Ummm, “wakka wakka,” it doesn’t take a law degree to read the definition of second-degree manslaughter. Oh, but your comment is so insightful.

Wakka wakka, that made me giggle.

Let’s be clear Mollyp.

Unless we were there or are have the type of information that will come out in trial; we are not cannot “look back at the events”

Then to continue with statements like “And at the point, her friends became negligent” implies you have some sort of legal qualifications as well.

I see you’ve formed your “opinion”, but lets leave the question of guilt to trial and a jury.

it’s simple. The mom is not thinking straight because she’s grieving. It’s her daughters fault. Hopefully she’ll come to her senses and drop the suit before her daughter’s name gets smeared.

Well, let’s see. We are all reading the same report, are we not? We are all reading the same news story that said her friends plied her with drinks after she asked them to stop.

Now, if 60 people can somehow make total leaps that somehow “the parents should not sue,” then I can definitely BACK UP an argument with the legal definition of manslaughter. It’s a lil’ something called a fact.

Hopefully she’ll come to her senses and drop the suit before her daughter’s name gets smeared.

It’s cases like this that give ambulance chasers a bad name.

Molly…I’m doubting whether their attorney had a heart-to-heart with them…he just saw a moneymaking opportunity. There are a lot of unscrupulous attorneys out there struggling to make the payments on their late-model 3-series BMWs.

Ummm, ok. So we can all sit here and assume all of these things based on gut feeling, but we are afraid to discuss the REAL known details based on the legal definition of manslaughter?

Wow.

This is a civil suit, not a criminal one. Therefore, I’m wondering what the parents expect to get from the other students. In other words, what is the optimal outcome for them? The other students are found civilly liable for their daughter’s death. Okay, say that happens. Then what?

At this point, the police have declined to file criminal charges. And, unless the police guarantee they won’t file criminal charges, my guess is the students will be forced to take the 5th, if a civil trial ever did happen.

There is another thing to consider here — her friends were probably drinking too. Thus, just as a drunk driver killing someone is less culpable than a sober one, it also can be true in this case. Her friends were also likely impaired judgment-wise as well.

Well, let’s see. We are all reading the same report, are we not?
We are, but it’s tough to discern the facts of the evening. That’s a legal issue.

I think the question of “should the parents sue” is not based on the law. It’s based on several other factors.

You can certainly dismiss the 60 opinions you disagree with, but I think some salient points have been made.

It’s a lil’ something called a fact.
Don’t patronize me. You may want to look up “fact” in a dictionary.

molly that wasn’t really directed at you, and it wasn’t meanspirited. there’s just a lot of law talk on mnspeak today.

Molly…isn’t this a civil suit? and isn’t manslaughter a criminal charge? If they felt there was a criminal case, why didn’t they push the county prosecutor to pursue criminal charges? or did they? you’re the reporter.

I think if you read the Strib story we are all discussing, you will see that the parents’ goal isn’t to get $, but to set a precedent. I am not arguing that said precedent should exist. I am just saying that, based on the legal definition of manslaughter, they might actually have a real civil case. And while everyone is quick to blame the victim, the courts might not be.

I remember this part from my online law course! It was called something like “If you can’t make ‘em do time, go after their dime”

I would hope the civil court system isn’t as mushy and emotional as joe juror.

All Jax’s friends have to do is call a chemical dependency professional to the stand to testify that even the best of friends can’t stop an alcoholic from drinking.

Wakka wakka is the best thing that has happened to MNspeak today.

And though I haven’t read any comments from their attorney, I am guessing she/he told the parents that proving that all of the parties “consciously” took the risk and “consciously” took the chances of causing death would be difficult. You’d have to prove that each one knew that drinking too much COULD kill her. And if one gets off, it could be said that all should.

And, in fact, I believe the prosecutors came to that same conclusion when they declined to file charges against either the friends, or the bar. However, there is a big difference between the “reasonable doubt” standard of criminal court and the “preponderance of evidence” or even “clear and convincing evidence” of civil court.

And while everyone is quick to blame the victim, the courts might not be.
That’s a pretty good point.

I tried to blame one of my friends in college for egging me on to drink 9 shots in a half hour.

It didn’t realyl work.

I haven’t talked to the parents! And I haven’t read anything about the story other than what has been reported. I am not commenting as a reporter, but as lil’ ol’ me.

I am just stating that, ACTUALLY, they might have a real case here. It remains to be seen. But before we all start whining that they’re crazy or blame the victim (and I still don’t believe that she is entirely to blame based on the Strib facts), the attorney likely went for the civil suit for the very reason that getting a conviction in a criminal case would be difficult, I am guessing, despite the manslaughter definition.

I was just asking people to think in legal terms–or at least back up their reasoning–instead of throwing things out like, “it’s her fault.” Oh, yeah? Why?

And mnblrmkr, that is exactly my point.

Thus, just as a drunk driver killing someone is less culpable than a sober one,

I don’t think that is true.

All Jax’s friends have to do is call a chemical dependency professional to the stand to testify that even the best of friends can’t stop an alcoholic from drinking.

If it weren’t for the fact that they were buying her the drinks, that might be a defense.

Like Jason (?) said earlier, you don’t have a legal obligation to save someone who is drowning. But you do have a legal obligation to save someone that you pushed in to the water.

This whole “blame the victim” thing is pretty weak. Who/what is she a victim of? Herself? Is there no such thing as personal responsiblity anymore? Yikes.

tara you do realize who this is, right?

The Parents are in Denial.

No, I guess I’m a little slow on the uptake.

seriously, civil charges on things like this are stupid. bring them up on manslaughter charges or admit you’re trying to make a buck.

I agree with Molly on this one. If her friends were so concerned, or even just aware, of her perceived drinking problem, why were they buying her shots till she passed out? Of course you can’t make an alcoholic stop drinking, but you can certainly stop yourself from enabling them. Why did they wait till the morning to call 911 when they couldn’t even rouse her when they drug her home? Yeah, I just don’t see where the friends are entirely blameless here, not that I’m sure that they should be sued, either.

I’m a lawyer, but I’m not a personal-injury lawyer and I only skimmed the complaint.

There are four causes of action here:

Counts 1 and 2. Wrongful Death and Dram Shop Liability. This is pretty simple: The bar illegally sold her alcohol once she was inebriated, and she died as a result of the bar’s illegal behavior.

Anyone think the bar shouldn’t be liable for selling booze (and giving booze) to a drunk customer?

Count 3. Civil Damages Act. This claim alleges that Jax’s friends illegally “gave, furnished, or in some other way procured alcoholic beverages” to Jax, “an obviously intoxicated person, in violation of Minn. Stat. 340A.502, which provides that no person may sell, give, furnish, or in any way procure for another alcoholic beverages for use of an obviously intoxicated person.”

The Civil Damages Act is Minn. Stat. 340A.801. I’m not going to try to parse this too strictly, and I’m totally unfamiliar with cases interpreting its provisions, but it looks like it provides a right for heirs of a dead person to sue “for all damages sustained against [the dead person] who caused the intoxication of that person by illegally selling alcoholic beverages.” Given the language of the statute “illegally selling,” I don’t know that it would encompass a claim against the friends — who were, of course, buying booze.

Count 4. Negligence. This claim alleges that Jax’s friends negligently provided alcohol when she was inebriated. A lot of people have made good points about this upthread. I don’t know that it’s a great claim, but it raises some interesting questions:

1) If you’re buying alcohol for someone who is clearly inebriated, do you have a duty to do so reasonably? Or do you owe them absolutely no duty whatsoever — meaning that even if they’re too drunk to stand up or speak or say no if you put a drink in front of them, then that’s no one fault but their own?

2) The first question bleeds into another element of negligence — would any of you argue that even if the friends were negligent, they weren’t the cause of Jax’s death because she was a free-willed immoral actor who intervened the chain of causality? How drunk does a person need to be before you take them out of the analysis?

3) It’s interesting that the lawsuit doesn’t claim there was any negligence based on the friends’ failure to care for her once she was drunk. If a friend is so inebriated that she is unconscious and vomiting, should you be legally obligated (if not criminally then civilly) to call 911? What if she’s in your house?

I think the claims are probably much stronger against the bar than against the friends, but if her folks believe her friends really participated in the process — buying her the drinks, especially after she was so drunk her judgment was impaired — I don’t really have a problem with them bringing this suit. I’ll be curious to see what happens.

I’m going back to work now.

So, the bar is closed and they lost their license. Their landlord is looking to evict.

These kids will have to live with this the rest of their lives. I would be willing to bet they’ll never get close to another situation like this, ever again. It’s probably safe to say they’ve learned a valuable lesson, at an unfortunate cost.

These parents lost a daughter.

Hasn’t everyone suffered enough? Like countless people have said before me, bringing this into court will only reveal facts about their daughter’s life they’ll probably be better off not knowing. Whatever the outcome, it’s not going to bring her back and I doubt it will serve as more of a punishment than those kids are already going through. And I agree with Shannon (I think?) that the social impact of this will be nil in the long run. How many kids have OD’d on liquor? How many people have killed entire families while driving drunk? If the impact was greater, this girl would be alive.

Even if they win, they’re going to lose even more. I guess I can understand their need to seek vengeance, but their mourning is overshadowing their reasoning right now. It just won’t be the result they’re looking for.

max, I’m not sure if this would be directly applicable, but it seems that it would: There have been cases where a person who supplied drugs that another individual OD’d on has been charged.

Tara, have you ever had six Long Island iced teas? Did you think drinking a few more would kill you? Did your friends give you more once you were barely able to walk?

Now let’s say you got in a car after drinking that much. At that point, you are responsible. You know that drinking and driving can kill you, or someone else.

But the whole point is that this is a unique civil case that could set a precedent for a number of future cases.

Let’s also remember, that while these friends purchased the drinks and set them on the table/bar in front of the girl, they didn’t hook her up to an i.v. of long islands or force them down her throat. She did that all on her own.

tara you do realize who this is, right?
Based on the obvious I’m guessing Bix.

MollyP, no I have never had 6 Long Island Ice Teas because that would be foolish. If she was so drunk that her judgment was impaired, she is the one who put herself into that state, so she is responsible. If get drunk and punch somebody in the face because of my imparied judgement, I am still morally and legally responsible for my actions.

Plenty of people drive buzzed, even drunk. Maybe you made a mistake and got caught on it with one DWI, but to have a pair of them under your belt before the age of 21… you’re probably an alcoholic.

Once I got the basic facts of the case, my thinking definitely turned against her so-called “friends.” Maybe you’re not the good friend who would have told Amanda Jax to get help, but even if you’re the cool friend — come on, show a little restraint.

I don’t know if a lawsuit against these jerks is the answer, but they certainly deserve to get called out.

3) It’s interesting that the lawsuit doesn’t claim there was any negligence based on the friends’ failure to care for her once she was drunk. If a friend is so inebriated that she is unconscious and vomiting, should you be legally obligated (if not criminally then civilly) to call 911? What if she’s in your house?

This would seem to be their strongest case against the friends, seeing that they were the ones buying her drinks.

RE, mnblrmkr: That is also a good point, but since those are controlled substances, it falls under murder in the 3rd degree. HOWEVER, few of those cases reach criminal courts because again, it is hard to prove who supplied the drugs in the first place and whether they did it without regard to life.

Now there is a WHOLE other can of worms. When you supply someone who is OBVIOUSLY inebriated and in trouble with alcohol, are you more or less criminally negligent than someone who gives a friend a lil’ meth that kills them?

I’m just waiting for the recent string of college deaths by alcohol to start another bout of prohibition. I expect to read about this in the paper any day now.

wrong!

wrong!
Superman denied being Clarke Kent too, but they were never in the same place at the same time.

like MN’s liquor laws could get any more restrictive.

RE, mnblrmkr: That is also a good point, but since those are controlled substances, it falls under murder in the 3rd degree.

That’s why I wasn’t sure if it would apply directly. But it seems the underlying concept could still apply. In this case, given the entire scope of the friends actions, her death could be (argued in court) to be a reasonably foreseeable consequence of their actions.

Whether that is the case or not would be for a jury to decide.

like MN’s liquor laws could get any more restrictive.

Well in Boston (maybe all of MA), they don’t allow any happy hour specials on alcohol (only food). So it could be worse.

Look at Utah’s if you want to see restrictive. Other control states.

It’s not difficult to get your hands on a jug in Minnesota. Just takes a modicum planning sometimes.

I feel bad for the bar. I don’t think bars should lose their liquor license over something like this. Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

This is why we can’t have nice things.

I feel bad for the bar. I don’t think bars should lose their liquor license over something like this. Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

Are you f’ing kidding me???

If the friends are negligent maybe the parents are also negligent for raising a stupid child. One could argue that the parents failed in their duties in raising a child. If I recall the Kid that died had dropped out of school and had an obvious drinking problem. If we are going to “intervene” in every tragic circumstance that occurs, then lets start at the beginning with the parents. The mom on the news did not look like the brightest bulb on the tree and was obviously a piss poor mom for raising a kid that could not make reasonable decisions. Bad things happen to everyone but occur more often to stupid people.

feel bad for the bar. I don’t think bars should lose their liquor license over something like this. Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

Are you f’ing kidding

They lost their business because some kid drank to much before she even got to the bar. To completely blame the bar is scapegoating.

As I said earlier, I would guess this wasn’t the bar’s first offense.

Every bar owner and bartender knows that it is illegal to serve an obviously inxicated patron.

The bar lost their license because they served alcohol to an obviously inebriated person.

The bar lost their license because they served alcohol to an obviously inebriated person.

True but in the real world people that frequent collage bars are typically drunk. You might as well shut them all down and I think that is going to be the intent of the Kato city council.

Also, one of the friends named in the suit wasn’t 21 at the time of the incident, which means the bar was serving an underage girl as well as serving someone way past drunk.

The bartender himself was buying her drinks. You can’t stop a drunk’s friends from ordering drinks while they sit at a table out of the bartender’s view, but you can blame the bartender for personally buying this girl alcohol. It was irresponsible as fuck.

True but in the real world people that frequent collage bars are typically drunk.

Just because it’s frequent doesn’t mean it’s okay. It’s illegal. Some people are better at acting normal while drunk and get served, but this girl had to be carried out of the bar on someone’s shoulders. You really believe there was no lead-up to that point? She was coherent and conversational and then just fell over? Doubtful.

Sidelines has had “more violations than any other bar in the city,”

Details here.

Clarification on my last comment: the bartender bought her the last drink of the night. Not one of the first and not while she was in “goofy drunk” mode. Seems pretty reckless.

“Once Jax passes out,” Wells’ memo continued, “he not only fails to call for emergency assistance, he actively participates by helping to put Jax into a vehicle.”

Ouch. Too bad they prosecutor’s didn’t feel they could make a criminal case here.

All those problems in only 18 months of business. Not sure why it’s only a suspension and not a revocation. Not that it matters, I guess, because I can’t imagine any property owner being willing to lease space to these guys for a bar.

I honestly don’t remember any bar being that bad when I was in school there. The closest I think would have been the Albatross, and that was more when the Vikings training camp was open, and you had all the players nad out of town groupies there.

They lost their business because some kid drank to much before she even got to the bar. To completely blame the bar is scapegoating.

Swandog – I agree 100%, but to “feel bad” for a bar that blatantly showed disregard for multiple patrons on multiple occasions is a completely asinine thing to say.

As a recent college graduate (2 years ago). I would like to say F*ck You to all these pansies who go out, drink and die. And F*ck you to the Nanny state that is Minnesota.

These arguments against the bar and the friends are completely asinine. You would almost think that those people had the intention to harm this person.

Ban drinking specials, no booze on Sunday? Just go ahead and outlaw all drinking period. Why not make the drinking age 25, then college students won’t be able to die like this.

Take some personal responsibility people. Seriously!

The only person at fault for drinking herself to death is Jax herself!

Re: Utah drinking laws

At least you can buy proper beer in Utah, can’t even do that here.

What proper beer is available for purchase in Utah, vlado4?

There’s such a fine line between intent to harm and total indifference when it’s obvious someone is on that path. They may not had intent to see her die but they certainly didn’t give a flying fuck how much she drank, and giving a fuck is their responsibility by law.

At least you can buy proper beer in Utah, can’t even do that here.

So, the fat tire ale that I buy here is somehow adulterated?

Swandog – I agree 100%, but to “feel bad” for a bar that blatantly showed disregard for multiple patrons on multiple occasions is a completely asinine thing to say.

I was just agreeing with the prior post. I certainly do not “feel bad per se. I agree with the personal responsibility argument. As someone that has worked very closely to this situation is my long ago past I remember what it is like to serve a bunch of drunk students. The goal is to make money and fill the tip jar. I am just guessing but the bartender was not trying to harm this girl but he did fuck up. We do not know all of the facts, after bar parties are a big part of the Kato scene I would like to know if she went to one, if she did they may be off the hook. This is not going to court. Every time I was involved in some kind of alcohol related lawsuit it never went to court. That will never get covered in the media this is one big boo hoo party and media hyped up problem. People do stupid things and die. Everyone wants to assign blame and feel better but I agree with vlado4 and how he perceives it. You can’t teach common sense it is learned and if you can’t learn it you sometime will get hurt.

There’s such a fine line between intent to harm and total indifference when it’s obvious someone is on that path. They may not had intent to see her die but they certainly didn’t give a flying fuck how much she drank, and giving a fuck is their responsibility by law.

That is to be seen. This will not go to court I garantee it. This kid had issues and that is what is not being reported in our one sided media.

after bar parties are a big part of the Kato scene I would like to know if she went to one, if she did they may be off the hook.

She was passed out on the bar stool and the bartender helped carry her out to the car. It’s not very likely that she went to an after bar party.

Criminally, the bartender is off the hook. The prosecutor has declined to file any criminal charges. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t civil torts that can be filed.

If it doesn’t go to court, it will most likely be because of some pre-trial settlement.

There seem to be enough claims that I doubt a judge will dismiss all of them before trial.

they lost their entire business by a girl’s stupidity. Bars are in business to make money and serve alcohol, not be a nanny.

They lost their business to their own stupidity of not obeying the law.

A couple of questions I have…

Who bought the beers that they had before they went out? Jax? Could the defendants argue that Jax in turn got them intoxicated and their judgment was impaired?

Has this happened before where the roles have been reversed and they were sick after coming home from drinking? Did Jax call the ambulance then? Would this set some sort of precedent?

It doesnt appear so, but did Jax buy any drinks at the bar for herself or her friends? Was her friends just buying her drinks that night because it was their turn from a previous night (quite common, he who has money in college buys the drinks). Maybe Jax even told the friends what type of drinks to buy for her…

Obviously there is A LOT more to know in the case… I think it is unfair to call either side out of line at this juncture. But I do agree the parents better have a good understanding of all of the consequences this is going to bring.

my $0.02

the law itself is flawed. How can a bartender truly know when someone has had too much? Did anyone watch that Fox9 special a few days ago? The lady had a terrible time figuring out who had too much and who could’ve had more.

I would think a seasoned bartender would have a pretty good idea when someone’s had too much…

If people keep this sue-happy crap up, bars will be a thing of the past. No one will want to open one or work at one because of all the liability issues.

We’ll all just have to drink at home because *some* people can’t accept personal responsibilty

I would think a seasoned bartender would have a pretty good idea when someone’s had too much…

Really, most of the people who go to bars on a regular basis are drunks. this means that they hold their alcohol better than someone who does not drink. People develop a tolerance to alcohol. Furthermore, they often times buy drinks in rounds this makes it difficult to know how much someone has had. The bartender also wants to make as much money as they can, if it is busy they serve hundreds of drinks an hour and do not ask every person who buys a drink; “have you had enough to drink yet”. It is easy to judge until you have been there.

Did anyone watch that Fox9 special a few days ago?

I try my very hardest not to watch Fox9 EVER.

If people keep this sue-happy crap up, bars will be a thing of the past. No one will want to open one or work at one because of all the liability issues.

We’ll all just have to drink at home because *some* people can’t accept personal responsibilty

I have an idea. When people go to a bar we will weigh them and they will be given tickets that correlate to the number of drinks they can have until they reach .08. Fat people drink more and little people get less. Lets try that one.

Really, most of the people who go to bars on a regular basis are drunks. this means that they hold their alcohol better than someone who does not drink. People develop a tolerance to alcohol. Furthermore, they often times buy drinks in rounds this makes it difficult to know how much someone has had. The bartender also wants to make as much money as they can, if it is busy they serve hundreds of drinks an hour and do not ask every person who buys a drink; “have you had enough to drink yet”. It is easy to judge until you have been there.

There may very well be people that can hide their intoxication better than others. But that doesn’t seem to be the case here. When the person you’re serving is having difficulty standing or sitting up by themselves, it’s a pretty clear indication that person has had too much. And yet, it appears this bartender not only continued to serve her, but even bought her a drink. There’s also the little matter that not only did the bartender neglect to call for medical help when she passed out in the bar (seems like a no brainer procedure, not only from a legal, but from an insurance perspective), he actually helped carry an unconscious patron out to a car.

Ultimately, there’s enough blame to go all the way around.

It starts with her parents who obviously didn’t teach her to respect the effects of alcohol.

She definitely failed to exercise restraint and good judgment. She should have stopped drinking before she became too impaired to say no. Who doesn’t know what their tolerance level is? She was clearly an experienced drinker, so she should have been smarter. She is the one most responsible for her own death, no question.

But, once she reached the point of no return, where she no longer could make reasonable decisions, her friends should have been better people. When one of my friends celebrated his 21st birthday, a million years ago, he had a couple of “friends” who were more interested in seeing how WILD AND CRAZY he could get than anything else and it took a couple of us to keep them from putting more drinks in front of him. At a certain point in inebriation, he just kept drinking. We had to babysit him to make sure he didn’t die. Yes, he drank far too much, and it was his own fault, but at some point he needed help in saying no. Help now, hold accountable when they sober up. Her friends should have stepped up.

If they were all drunk out of their minds and couldn’t show better judgment, the bar should have stepped up instead of buying her one more drink.

Maybe this deserves to go to court, maybe it doesn’t. I don’t honestly know. I just know that it’s not going to give the parents the kind of peace they’re looking for.

Re: Utah Beer

What I meant is that you can buy proper Beer in a Grocery store in Utah.

Otherwise they pretty strict.

Also to all of you saying that the friends should’ve gotten help. I have helped really drunk passed out friends by taking them to the emergency room etc.

The result: really pissed of doctors who don’t want to deal with another drunk college student. And the next day a really pissed off friend who is super mad about the bills they have to pay.

I have been in these situations probably 100 times and I can say that letting someone pass out and sleep it off is the status quo. None of these hardcore drinkers partiers take the people to the emergency room etc..

Seriously, anyone that has partied in college within the last couple of years should see this as it is. There are drunk passed out people in the bathroom, on couches, everywhere. Someone passed out is nothing abnormal for a weekend night and no reason to alarm authorities. So I don’t blame the friends for not doing anything.

I don’t even care about prohibition that much. But blaming this on anyone else than the individual… its not like this was her first time drinking.

Um… okay, wow. That logic doesn’t allow me to respond.

Vlad, are you a doctor? Are college students medically trained? Would these parents or the parents of your friends rather deal with a medical bill or funeral bills? It doesn’t take much alcohol to go from drunk to alcohol poisoning. I went to college and saw lots of people passed out, and yeah, I can see your point about not being sure. But, I also think this is one lesson that all college kids can learn from and err on the side of safety when it comes to alcohol poisoning.

The result: really pissed of doctors who don’t want to deal with another drunk college student.

So? That’s their job.

And the next day a really pissed off friend who is super mad about the bills they have to pay.

Better a pissed off friend than a dead friend. And if they really are that pissed about that, then we’re probably through anyway, because I’m not going to be an enabler.

There seems to be a bit of a change.

When I was in college, there were plenty of people that would pass out, but the drinking, while probably still qualifying as binge drinking, was at a slower, more steady pace, and got slower as they got closer to passing out. If a person finally passed out, their BAC wasn’t going to rise much further.

Now days, it seems much more common to be slamming as many drinks down as fast as you can (the so called “power hour”, etc.). So when a person does pass out, there is so much more alcohol that can still enter their system, they’re at a much greater risk, since an unconscious person can give you few, if any clues they are in danger.

Better a pissed off friend than a dead friend.

I called an ambulance on a wasted friend once in college. By the time we got to the hospital, she was sobering up, so they just turned her around and sent her home, but at the time when her eyes were rolling back in her head and I couldn’t keep her upright, it was the right choice.

And she was out $400 for her pointless ambulance ride and the college called her parents and they were pissed, but you know what? She never got that shitfaced ever again. She eventually thanked me for it, because it scared the bejesus out of her that she could get to the point where someone thought she might die. If someone had done that for Amanda just one of the “hundreds of times” she had been that drunk, maybe she’d still be alive.

Honestly, I am surprised stuff like this doesn’t happen WAY more often. There is so much binging going on in colleges.

If I was to be “responsible” and take people to the emergency room, I’d be taking probably two people per night. I’d probably would’ve ended up there myself dozens of times during my college career.

What a waste of everything. Glad I survived that stupidity. The hole “college is about partying” mentality is completely moronic in the US. It is for “studying” not partying. I wish I had spent my time drinking doing something else. Oh man….

I suppose I can blame the culture in college, but I will accept responsibility for being a moron in college.

You know, most of the colleges in the state, most of them affiliated with vibrant communities that have bars and clubs, are partly to blame for the sudden disproportionate of underage drinking among campus students. Apparently, this specific bar at Mankato State University knew that they were serving excessive booze to anyone under the age of 18; the campus administrators knew that and so did the bar owners, and this gal friends themselves.

Yet, I like to know where our tax money is going to higher education(both private and public) when it comes to economic stimulus from within a campus community that supports bars and clubs in the area. You tell me if campus drinking is related to the politics of college administrators in charge of our academic institution through decision making at the state capitol like the UofMN or MSU from various lobbyist groups.

Vlad, I don’t think you were a moron, just young. Young people make bad choices because they think they’re immortal. Unfortunately sometimes it takes tragedy to teach a hard lesson to a few people. It seems that you learned the lesson the easy way and you should be thankful for that. I hope you don’t feel like we were attacking you for that.

It’s about damm time people stand up and take responsability for their own actions…….stop blaming everyone else because you are an Idiot!

Me, as wannabe lawyer: “Your honor, the decedent was 21 years old. Of sound mind and body. An adult capable of making her own legal, ethical and moral decisions. No one forced her to drink anything. She held the glass to her mouth and swallowed the contents. She was aware that the contents contained alcohol. How was she aware? She’d been there, in that same establishment, before. Ordering alcoholic drinks. we also have…documented history of alcohol abuse.

::gasp from mother of decedent. Father of decedent shuffles feet and looks to floor.::

The parents are clearly in a revengeful mode of anger and denial. However, there is no lawsuit worthy of merit here. The girl died, and that’s a shame. A true shame….But these things happen when parents do not properly warn children of the dangers of alcohol abuse before they are of legal drinking age. This is, your honor, precisely what happens.

::booing noise from father of decedent. Mother audibly hisses at me. Jury nods solemnly in agreement.::

Judge: Case dismissed!

::bangs gavel::

Girl drank HERSELF to death.

Nothing is more annoying than grieving parents having to blame others so they can keep their daughter up on a pedestal.

Guess what: your daughter had an alcohol problem. She made very poor decisions that directly caused her death. Get over it.

Also, WTF is the reason of suing the Bonding company? These parents are looking for financial gain out of their loss, and it’s sick.

Their daughter was a 2-bit drunk.

Hold them accountable!!! and vlado4, please do leave the country and take your irresponsible buddies with you.