Secrets of the City

Responsible government finally returns!

My favorite quote from the Strib’s story:

People ask me ‘What about your career? How can you go against all those people who are going to hurt you politically? And I think this isnt my career. I hope none of us think of this as your career. I tell my kids do whats right, whatever the consequences. And so the time comes when I have to do what I think is right.
Rep. Jim Abeler, R-Anoka

The RINOs will be purged.

That is a good quote…

Too bad my computer/Safari hates the Strib site and won’t load a page in under ten minutes…

The RINOs will be purged.

I hope they are up for re-election. What kind of Republican votes for a tax increase with a bonding bill on the table. Nothing like a tax increase on a Monday to start the week out.

Haha, maz is pissed. That’s hilarious.

I heard talk of that the local Elephant Gang was playing rough with one of its own in Andover, maz.

As for your threat against Republicans who voted to override, I’m reminded of Robert D’s great line from True Grit:

“I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man.”

Haha, maz is pissed.

Swandog, too!

BONUS!

heard talk of that the local Elephant Gang was playing rough with one of its own in Andover, maz.

“I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man.”

A one eyed fat man can still vote.

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed fat man who votes is king…

Hey, if they don’t want to represent their republican constituents, they shouldn’t run for election.

You’re hitting full smug mode, Bob.

Unbecoming.

Actually, their job is to represent all of their constituents.

Actually, they better find a new job.

It’s not just gas, it’s some sales tax and car tabs.

No skin off The Rat’s nose. He works at home and his wife bikes to work half the year.

But $6 billion is real money and it’s coming from someone. I’m not sure what anyone is happy about here. It’s not anything to celebrate. If it’s important, it’s important.

But it’s not a “let’s stick up Pawlenty’s ass” sort of thing.

You’re hitting full smug mode, Bob. Unbecoming

I’m speaking as a citizen, not a partisan. Pleanty of jerks in BOTH parties, in my opinion. A pox on both their houses.

I’m a fiscal conservative, and I think that delaying this decision any further would set us back further, cost us more money and threaten our comeback from this slowdown/recession.

Smug? Damn right.

To offset the gas tax increase, the bill provides a $25 tax credit for low-income taxpayers. The credit would go to single people earning less than $22,390 a year and couples earning less than $32,720. They would not have to own a car to qualify for the credit.

Huh? How is giving this tax credit to people without a car going to offset the gas tax increase?

I doubt we will even notice the gas tax increase. The license plate thing is sort of lame though–that fee is already quite expensive. Wisconsin has a flat rate for all cars. Maybe we should get incentives to buy newer, more gas efficient vehicles innstead of being rewarded for keeping older, dirtier cars. wait, I guess there are some tax credits for hybrids, aren’t there?

But it’s not a “let’s stick up Pawlenty’s ass” sort of thing.

Of course not. He gets the benefits of the funded projects without having to sign his name to a tax.

Hey, if they don’t want to represent their republican constituents, they shouldn’t run for election.

The pendulum will swing and when it does it will hit hard. Hat’s off to the RHINOS for undercutting the people who voted for them. I have no problem with democrats voting to raise taxes, that is an honest and reasonable position. One I do not agree with but that’s life. What I can’t stand is the republicans who say one thing and do another, that is called pandering. This is exactly why I will not join the republican party they only stand for Jesus and some other evangelical bullshit. God give us a third party.

I’m not sure what anyone is happy about here. It’s not anything to celebrate.

Once again the democrats increase taxes on the poor and working class and laugh about it. First cigarettes and now this. I can afford it. It’s the poor people I’m thinking about.

instant runoof voting swan, nothing else will get us there.

…especially not god.

Of course not. He gets the benefits of the funded projects without having to sign his name to a tax

Actually, many people have speculated that this was the best possible political outcome for him in this. Talks like a tough Republican, yet gets the money his state so badly needs to get to work in a big way.

So let’s call it a win-win.

instant runoof voting swan, nothing else will get us there.

Maybe, bring back the body.

“It’s the poor people I’m thinking about.”

Quote of the day.

Don’t poor people take the bus?

Once again the democrats increase taxes on the poor and working class and laugh about it. First cigarettes and now this. I can afford it. It’s the poor people I’m thinking about.

I can afford it to. The problem is the real poor do not vote and get run over by the limousine liberal left. If you smoke and drive an older car and you are poor your screwed. But hey it is what it is.

Minnesota conservatives: Caring about the poor since one hour ago.

Don’t poor people take the bus?

Not where I live. They drive older cars and have a hard time keeping them up. The bus is an option but many times they can’t get to work in a reasonable amount of time so they drive.

Wasn’t it Mr. Conservative Pawlenty who dreamed up the “health impact fee” (i.e. cigarette tax) a couple years ago? We can’t stop you from blaming liberals for all of society’s ills, maz, but at least get the facts straight first.

And yeah, I’m sure it’s the poor and working class who are driving those 8 mpg SUVs all over the roads, towing their boats to and fro.

Pawlenty is not a conservative. He’s a republican politician.

I’m a fiscal conservative, and I think that delaying this decision any further would set us back further,

If it’s important, can’t the General Fund pay for some of this?

By having a dedicated transportation tax, this now makes us eligible for matching Federal funds, something that was not possible before.

Poor Guy FTW!

When Maz doesn’t have something to gloat and be smug about, he gets all PMS’y. “The RINOs will be purged.” “Actually, they better find a new job.“

Oh, and for the record, I doubt very much that it’s the poor you are thinking about. Compassion just isn’t your forte, dude.

THIS IS GREAT NEWS!

When you have no transportation strategy this is what happens. Pawlenty has failed time and time again to provide leadership in this area (and in most other areas). I still have issues with the pared back transportation policy (its not pared back enough) but its something I can live with.

And I also find it amusing that conservatives are using the “you can’t raise taxes on hard working minnesotans” card. That excuse gets used in good times and bad and its a cheap cop out.

This is obviously money we need to find somewhere, not that I’m looking forward to yet another ding at the register every time I buy something in Minneapolis. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s… 6.5%… half a point for the city, and a quarter point metro-wide for transit. Apparently it takes less than double what we pay on a stadium for Pohlad’s pumped-and-dumped team.

“not that I’m looking forward to yet another ding at the register every time I buy something in Minneapolis.“

Can’t think of anyone who likes paying taxes (except maybe my crazy uncle that nobody talks about). I certainly don’t like seeing my taxes supporting anti-choice legislation or laws that blur the church / state separation.

Maz’s people will directly benefit from an increase in mass transit. He should be satisfied.

Not all poor people live on a bus line. But then, how would you know that?

And I also find it amusing that conservatives are using the “you can’t raise taxes on hard working minnesotans” card.

Yeah, you people find a lot of amusment in other people’s hardship.

I am DISGUSTED by the way that these State Lawmakers are acting over the last several years! They have done NOTHING for the state, just simply sit on government committees, waving the high-fives to lobbyists and career activists, duping voters on the verge of absolute mediocre with philosophical ideas, and continuously lie about what is going on behind close doors! They are the worst of the bunch! They are close to being Anti-American; they are no better than the Italian brownshirts or the Russian Bolsheviks! These politicians, both DFL and GOP should be remove from office at any cost and stripped of their career status to the point of sheer humiliation!

As for the Governor himself, he needs to explain his behavior to the people of this state. He should not be tossing out political points on National television in order to become McCain’s Vice President ticket. This man has done nothing for Minnesota, except for being cute in front of the camera and playing nice to a bunch of dullard news reporters at the State Capitol.

TIME TO VOTE FOR INDEPENDENT NEXT TIME!!! TELL THESE IDIOTS THAT THE PUBLIC WANT NONE OF THE ABOVE FOR VIABLE CANDIDATES!!!

No skin off The Rat’s nose.

We’re building better roads on The Rat’s dime!

Let’s Play Ball!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anything that causes Mazaspazza such pain HAS TO BE GOOD!

Sucks to be “The Man” don’t it, Maz?

When you are The Establishment with all The Money, sometimes the downtrodden, the little guy, the working poor, the salt of the Earth, the common people come up and kick you square in the balls.

And there’s not a damn thing you can do about it ‘cept crumble to your knees and whimper in pain.

Sucks don’t it?

There, there little lamb. You will live to exploit the poor and suffering another day.

But not today.

I guarantee you that I can afford those tax increases more easily than you can. So it’s pretty pathetic that people like me have to look out for your financial well-being because you were so poorly educated in such matters that you don’t even know when the government is taxing you into poverty. There’s nothing so sad as a slave who prefers the plantation to freedom.

I’m a fiscal conservative, and I think that delaying this decision any further would set us back further, cost us more money and threaten our comeback from this slowdown/recession.

I’m confused by this statement. Can you elaborate Bob?

We’re building better roads on The Rat’s dime!

Can’t wait to drive on one. I fish around Steve Murphy’s District DFL Red Wing. No doubt his district will get a taste.

$6.6 billion is, like, 8-10 Twins stadiums, Raindog.

But, as I said, it’s no skin of my nose, I fill up the tank maybe twice a month.

The cyclists and transit riders: What do they care? They get to give Pawlenty the Stink Eye.

the working poor, the salt of the Earth, the common people

As if . Got rhetoric any older. C’mon. Tell us about the ’60s.

Man, you people have destroyed the great Democratic Party.

It’s fascinating to me that when Maz and the few here on the right gang up on the rest of you, all you can do is bitch about the, “Lack of proper discourse,” on this site. When the shoe is on the other foot, everyone does the same little song and dance, with no apparent chiding from the Mods.

Simmer the hell down, all of youse.

There isn’t any real discourse to be had about this topic. The population of the state has been growing consistently for the last 20 years, and the number of vehicles on the road has been rising with it. I doubt anyone thought that less money should be spent on the roads now…

The only argument is about funding source, an important but boring and wonkish topic which does not elicit strong passions outside the CPA crowd. Pay now, or pay later but we will pay. The roads have to be built and maintained, our only real leeway comes in deciding to pay the cost ourselves or shift it to our kids and grandkids.

One question I have: Why isn’t there any sort of regular adjustment for inflation/population/traffic growth in the road funding formulas? It is not as if the number of cars will be decreasing anytime soon, is it?

Ok, but if there are more vehicles on the road, there should be more vehicles paying the same taxes, so there should be an increase in the tax revenue w/o the increase in tax rates, shouldn’t there? Am I missing some odd math? We are paying.

And, BTW, I consider this discourse. Sniping one another w/ pithy comments is, “negative criticism, which is fun to write and to read,” (to quote my second favorite movie) but not much to sway someone or add to a conversation.

Also, I believe that there was a provision to “Index” the tax rate written into the new law, but it was taken out between the house and senate versions.

Ok, but if there are more vehicles on the road, there should be more vehicles paying the same taxes, so there should be an increase in the tax revenue w/o the increase in tax rates, shouldn’t there?
I thought so too until I thought about twenty years of inflation plus increases in the average weight of cars on the road today plus the increase in commuter miles plus the massive increase in the price of construction materials. I am sure that these factors plus others have eaten the increases.

From a lot of analysis that I have read, there was no realistic options for raising the funds except some sort of tax hike. Any shifting of funds away from the general fund would have resulted in a shifted property tax hike. They are not going to take funding away from education, or programs with matching federal dollars. The poor that some are so worried about would have been more effected by cuts in services that would be required in order to not raise taxes. Pay a little more for gasoline or lose health benefits — tough choice there.

Since the Minnesota constitution prevents bonding for trunk highway improvements, a consistent source of revenue was required. A change in this will be put to the voters in November. The most reasonable way to provide this consistent funding would be to raise taxes. Further, the most fair place to raise taxes is to increase the cost of using the roads. IE a gas tax and tab fees. It is a no brainer.

I would rather pay for the roads myself, than shift the burden on to my offspring. But I am pretty conservative like that.

yayyyy!

hilarious, though, that it still only plugs 25% of the budget shortfall. imagine how difficult it would be to pass anything to find enough money to fill that entire gap?

I can afford it to. The problem is the real poor do not vote and get run over by the limousine liberal left. If you smoke and drive an older car and you are poor your screwed. But hey it is what it is.

I smoke and am poor, but don’t drive and am liberal. WHERE DO I FIT IN??????

It’s easy for you to cheer this, wayne. No going to cost you much of anything. Don’t have to buy car tabs or gas. When your tax policy takes from Peter and gives to Paul, you can always count on support by Paul.

Not all poor people live on a bus line.

hey maz, maybe that’s because of the anemic transit budget?!?!
ZOMG!

On the bus.

btw, we proposed taking 0.007 percent of the current budget and shifting it to transportation. I think we could have managed that without socio-economic and cultural catastrophe.

hey rat, it’s not like the costs don’t filter down to me. just because I make a cheaper transportation decision than you doesn’t mean I don’t pay for this. But I cost the system a hell of a lot less, and I probably still pay for more than I get back out of it. At least now there will be some extra cash sloshing around to pay for transit that will (god I hope) someday come by more than every half hour and stop for six hours at night.

hey kevs, why don’t you put the transportation projects on your personal credit card? or have your buddy tpaw do it?

you can’t borrow forever. someone has to pay it in the future.

Also, how is the additional tax going to affect people who are on fixed incomes and have to drive to work? Does anyone have valid statistics on this? Why exactly, are we doing this in the middle of what very probably is a recession, (It hasn’t been validated yet, you never really know you’re in a recession until you no longer are…)?

i wondered the same thing Dts.
Everyone is so supportive of this, yet I have heard nothing about those lower income people that may not live in the inner city/first rings and have bus service available, but still have a substantial commute they need to make every day. Does anyone know how this will affect them?

I think it just got legs with the bridge collapse, and hasn’t stopped running long enough for anyone to take things like this into account.

I smoke and am poor, but don’t drive and am liberal. WHERE DO I FIT IN??????

The next time you’re sitting around and wondering why you’re so poor, take a look at your pay stub and calculate the deducations confiscated by government. You’ll have your answer as to why you live in squaller.

don’t woory wayne, you’ll get a tax credit pais for by drivers, even though you don’t drive. We’ll take care of you. 25 bucks, that’s like 5 packs of smokes for you.

no thanks, maz. I am a mathematician and I can calculate quite well what the government taketh (and for that matter what they returneth). I’m poor because I’m underpaid, not because I’m overtaxed.

If there are any deductions on my paycheque I’d rather not be paying, it’s the social security for old farts like you that have run up a giant bill for my generation to pay off. I’d rather use that money to pay off the debt and leave oldsters to fend for themselves. After all, you all got rich by pushing off the costs of your lifestyles and decisions onto us.

I’m a fiscal conservative, and I think that delaying this decision any further would set us back further, cost us more money and threaten our comeback from this slowdown/recession.

I’m confused by this statement. Can you elaborate Bob?

Ok. That I’m a fiscal conservative should be self-explanitory. Here’s my conservative take on why a gas tax is better than bonding.

It is a “pay-as-you-go” approach that helps to prevent debt from piling up. As more Minnesota Baby Boomers retire and go on fixed incomes, it will be less fair to keep reaching for the state’s credit card — i.e. bonding — every time we need road work done. In the past, we have counted on steady job growth to keep our economy — and state budget — going. We can’t do that any longer, and there is no telling how long this could last. Since we can no longer count on a vigorous economy to “float all boats,” we are forced to a) cut costs & programs (which will will likely have to do) and b) raise taxes. No one like a tax increase (they really don’t!), but sometimes it is the only responsable thing to due. Someone has to make the hard decision, and I think the republicans who voted for this showed both guts and character.

We know what maz thinks about that. Let’s see what the voters have to say.

On the subject of fuelStrike a blow to academic freedom

“A pair of agriculture groups has temporarily suspended about $1.5 million in grants to the University of Minnesota to protest a controversial study by U scientists earlier this month about biofuels and global warming.”

“The money will come back when you do studies we agree with.”

Also:

Here I thought the 2nd and 3rd-ring suburbs didn’t want poor people polluting their little wonderlands? I was under the impression they’d worked really hard to price out the poor people so we had a rotten ring around the cities proper (with a few notable exceptions).

I don’t think 5-8c/gal is really going to hurt people on fixed incomes that badly, considering the price of gas fluctuates far more than that on a weekly basis just from (your beloved) market forces. Gas prices are going to go up no matter what. At least grab a tiny portion of that to pay for the infrastructure that’s falling apart and completely necessary for its use.

lol, settle Wayne.

Hey, I buy bagels in that building, Maz.

I have statistics on how this will affect low incomes. The lowest decile income range of < $34K pays $480 in sales tax at the 6.5 percent rate. In the core cities where the sales tax is 7 percent add $37; add $16 for the higher gas tax; add $34 for the 1/4 percent sales tax. So you're looking at about $85 or so per year for the poorest 10 percent. If the 3/8 sales tax increase constitutional amendment passes in the fall, add another $28. This does not take into account higher registration or tab fees they might encounter.

In the second decile from $34K – $52K the average household pays &780 in sales tax at 6.5 percent. Add in the same taxes from the first example and it’s $136 more; $181 if the 3/8 increase passes.

If you take into account the costs we pay as businesses pass these taxes along to consumers, the numbers go up dramatically.

h/t tax incidence study

I think both Wayne and Maz need to simmer down and put a cork in it for a little while (even though I agree with Wayne’s many points).

From MinnPost’s Steve Berg:

Ironically, as chairman of the National Governors Association, Pawlenty was at the White House on Monday, his group asking President Bush for more federal money for roads, bridges and other infrastructure. Pawlenty has tried to be a leader on climate change and clean energy nationally while opposing a leap in transit construction for his city.

By hook or by crook, T-Paw knew transportation needed money, and he probably suspected that taxpayers would pay it anyway, be it local or property taxes. He just didn’t want his name on the dotted line. And, by gosh, it worked.

Say what you want about Pawlenty’s policies (that they’re irresponsible, short-sighted…you know, things like that), but he kept his word, and I suspect he’ll be rewarded for it. (The fiscally responsible DFLers? They’re screwed.) We Minnesotans should think again next time before electing a governor with such immediate career aspirations.

Thanks Kwatt.

I agree with the cork, alie, though I think I’m falling more toward Maz on this one.

Come on, Kevin. You can’t include the $37 for the half percent in the core cities, that has been in place for years. Yes people have to pay it, but it can’t be included with the new economic impacts of this bill. Using your numbers the lowest 10% pay $50 in new taxes and get a $25 tax credit for a net impact of $25. Don’t get me wrong, $25 is a lot for the lowest income folks, but let’s not say the impact is more than triple what it really is.

Think of it in terms of the smokers that have been mentioned with so much concern. Cut out one cig every other day, that’s almost 9 packs a year. More than enough to cover the $25 and no one is being told to quit or any other nanny state claim you could come up with.

I smoke and am poor, but don’t drive and am liberal. WHERE DO I FIT IN??????

Wayno you fit in right were you are at. You will change as time passes. I am in the middle age group just between you and Maz. This is a real problem coming our way. The budget will not keep up with the services people are demanding. We are headed for one big shit story. You are an educated bright person that over time will have an increase in your income and may own a home if you choose to. The over all class warfare present on this post point out the real issue i.e. that government is broken and we all sit here and play my team won and yours lost. In the end if this continues we will all get screwed. Unfortunately compromise is something both parties threw out the window along time ago. It is the middle of the road and the middle class people who get to pay the highest per capita taxes. Over time you will see it and it will change how you view things I promise.

Wayne, do the suburbs actively try to price out poor people? Or do better school districts and less crime contribute to higher property vlaues? Is it a conspiracy at the county level?

Where was all that concern about the impact of the sales tax on the poor when the topic was Stadiums, Kevin?

All we ever heard during that debate was that we won’t even notice it.

This tax isn’t that different. At least this one a) has a broader geographic base and b) actually goes to public infrastructure that will be used by a much larger proportion of the people paying the tax.

Let me explain it to you this way, Rat:

Professor Harold Hillobeans: “My new study shows that The Rat is a threat to human health and safety. I recommend that he be fired from his job, evicted from his home, and revieve no rebate check from the government. In his place, I recommend that my nephew be hired, who emits far fewer greenhouse gases than The Rat, according to my studies. I shall anounce these findings in a series of press conferences.

PS: Dear Mr. Rat. Please send your usual check to support my research.”

See their point? They have the freedom to continue their studies. The farmers have the freedom to spend their money elsewhere. Freedom all around.

BTW: the “controversal” study has been slammed by the US Dept. of Energy, no less, which almost never comments on such matters.

Let’s take a wholesale look at taxes then, lurker. What hurts, what helps? I am on the border between Mpls and 1st ring suburbs in the northeast and I tend to make bigger purchases outside the city to avoid the Carl Pollad tax. When we stack tax on top of tax, the lines get pretty blurry as to which we can include or exclude in statistics of what people pay.

Swandog:
If the budget won’t keep up w/ the services, what then? How do we draw the line?

There was plenty of concern for that, and if I remember right fewer people voted for that bill than the transportation bill. Perhaps you just weren’t paying attention.

Come on, Kevin. You can’t include the $37 for the half percent in the core cities, that has been in place for years. Yes people have to pay it, but it can’t be included with the new economic impacts of this bill.

I didn’t mean to imply it was because of the new law. I meant that you have to add that extra half-cent to the base calculation that is based on the 6.5 percent rate in order to get closer to what a person living in the core cities would pay.

Remember that 17 years later we’re still paying the temporary half-cent sales tax increase imposed in 1991. That 1992-93 deficit must have been a real b*tch!

I like how every time a tax increase happens, the right-wingers, who don’t give a rat’s ass about the poor, all of the sudden care about the poor.

This is a regressive tax, but it’s needed. We need the transportation money, and more than that, we need to encourage less driving. If the tax system isn’t progressive enough in general, then that needs to be fixed somewhere else.

Some comments deleted or redacted. You can probably guess which ones if you’ve been reading this thread.

Civility, gentlemen.

Sorry Max, I’ll try to restrain myself in the future.

Swandog:
If the budget won’t keep up w/ the services, what then? How do we draw the line?

At some point we just run out of money and the haves and have nots vote for what is best in their individual self interest (which is fine). We are on our way to this. We are currently printing money with our gov. bonds. In the end the system will collapse on itself and some form of political revolution will take place. No one thought that the depression could happen in the 30’s and we are living in a similar time economically. The worst thing about this is that our government officials are in denial. You can tax and print money but inflation will eventually destroy that strategy. In the end will will cut services plain and simple and it will be across the board, just give it time.

it’s a user fee, not a regressive tax.

The terrible, horrible, unbearable burden placed on the poor as a result of the gas tax increase:

200 miles/wk @ 20 mpg = 10 gal/wk = 520 gal/yr
520 x 0.085 = $44.20 – $25 deduction = $19.20

I’m all for sticking up for the little guy, but opposition to this bill for the sake of those “poor hard working Minnesotans” who you pretend to stand with until they go to pick up a welfare check is a pretty lame excuse. Plus if the +$30k crowd were made to provide all the funds, you’d be bitching twice as loud.

Hope they use some of the $ for a SW corridor light rail!

If the budget won’t keep up w/ the services, what then? How do we draw the line?

That’s the puchline to the saddest joke out there – how do you keep funding the never-ending cry for more and more while tax policy continues to exclude more and more from contributing?

Even if you take all 100% from Carl Pohlad and Tiger Woods, it’s never going to be enough for those who want government to provide everything.

it’s a user fee, not a regressive tax.
I think that could be said of cigarette taxes, but in this case, I’m willing to recognize that most people couldn’t just stop driving tomorrow, even if I wish they could.

That would be bad for transportation revenues.

See their point? They have the freedom to continue their studies. The farmers have the freedom to spend their money elsewhere. Freedom all around.

This paying-to-get-the-science-you-want seems like a bad idea to me. These groups have sent a powerful message: produce the results that we profit from or lose your funding. I don’t see how real science can come from this sort of arrangement.

Real science will come from the arrangement the same way it has always come. Science didn’t stop when the church controlled the funds. Galileo was still able to get his word out and piss off the establishment. People will find things out, and if the funders pull their funds, researchers will go elsewhere to get new funds.

Fund.

That’s the difference between applied reseach and basic reseach, adam.

The US Department of Energy is wonder where the real science is, too. See what top energy guru M. Wang has to say.

Sorry, that was the DOE link. Here’s the Wang letter.

Remember that 17 years later we’re still paying the temporary half-cent sales tax increase imposed in 1991. That 1992-93 deficit must have been a real b*tch!

Once taxes are in place no one wants to repeal them. They finally got rid of the interstate telephone tax last year that was put in place to pay for the Spanish American war!

That was such a quagmire.

Galileo was still able to get his word out and piss off the establishment. People will find things out, and if the funders pull their funds, researchers will go elsewhere to get new funds.

This couldn’t be more wrong. Things don’t work the way they did in Galileo’s day. The easy stuff has been figured out. Refining our understanding of nature at this point takes teams of specialized people and expensive equipment and facilities, as well as a person’s full time. The odd hobbyist may occasionally invent something of interest, but when it comes to basic science, it will only exist with the public’s financial support.

Hope they use some of the $ for a SW corridor light rail!

Oh don’t worry, it’s earmarked into the bill. As I summed up on Metroblogging, yesterday was a banner day for transit advocates.

Kwatt do you have a link to the mentioned ’summed up on Metroblogging’. It is blocked at work and I have to go through a slow alternative to find it so a direct link would be nice.

Go to yesterday’s MNSpeak link to something about a train to duluth. It’s in the comments there. Otherwise just read Article 6, Sections 7 and 8 in the bill; and Article 4. Same diff.

Kevin did indeed sum it up on Metroblogging. Down in the comments.

Maz is such a damn idiot that it’s nearly painful. As if taxes are what make people poor, not corporations that act with unbridled greed, send jobs overseas, reduce real pay and benefits for their employees, and otherwise do everything possible to ensure that it’s harder than ever to make an honest living. Or the skyrocketing health care costs that the government has enabled and done practically nothing to address. Or maybe the collapsing economy that has been mismanaged for years by people who think tax cuts for the rich and less corporate regulation will solve all our problems.

Yeah, but a couple hundred bucks a year in gas taxes is the problem. Get a clue.

Maz’s Philosophy

Greed is GOOD

War is PEACE.

Up is DOWN.

Bush/Cheney is not profiting from BIG OIL.

Any questions?

Any questions?

A few … do you have a retirement plan? Because if you do, you probably own oil company stock. So, in case you didn’t know, since I don’t want to take anything for granted, their making a profit would be a good thing for you.

Here’s another: didn’t they have an economics class in that rube high school you went to?

Yes, we’re aware you took economics in high school, Maz. You might be surprised to learn that it actually gets a lot more complicated at the college level.

And trumpy … if that’s your real name … if it weren’t for corporations they’d be no economy, and if there was no economy, there wouldn’t be any tax revenue to the governmnet, and if there wasn’t any tax revenue, you wouldn’t get your government check every month.

Wow, just when I thought Maz couldn’t be any more rude. That last comment was really uncalled for. Not every lib gets a government check. I would say most of them don’t.

Gee Mazasapa (if that is your real name) what did the world do for a majority of its existence without corporations? Since the modern sense of a corporation is a 20th century “invention”. I cannot image how the world could even function without corporations and “economies”.

High school economics, dude. Without imaginary factories making widgets, we’d all be living in caves.

Thanks for the explanation Max! Now I get it.

More on “The Battle of the Bean” at the U of M, from MinnPost’s Brian Veording.

I want a government cheque! Where’s mine? wth!

Regret: Insight that comes a day too late.