Secrets of the City

It’s about time the door-kickers get their comeuppence. Maybe now they’ll verify the validity of their information a little more thoroughly before they storm into an innocent mans home.

I wonder what the fallout is gonna be for the SWAT team that got bitch-slapped.

I also think they oughta thank the god of their choice that this homeowner didn’t have something with a little more punch than a shotgun.

I also think they oughta thank the god of their choice that this homeowner didn’t have something with a little more punch than a shotgun.

Or that one of the many rounds they fired in the home didn’t hit the homeowner or one of the six children in the home he was trying to protect…

Don’t blame the SWAT team. Those guys get handed warrants, and follow orders. The questions have to go to the Violent Offender Task Force.. the investigators looking into a street gang, that could have at least run the addresses to look for red flags.

I get that time is of the essence when you get a tip about a lot of weapons, but they had time to get a warrant. They certainly had 30 seconds to run the addresses.

I felt so bad for this family. I hope the department will just suck up their misguided pride and admit that they fucked up. Badly.

Radley Balko has been covering this over at The Agitator.

We’re very lucky this botched raid didn’t turn into another Kathryn Johnston or Cory Maye case.

True, Jason, but “following orders” has been an excuse far too many times in far too many situations and has lead to tragedies.

I don’t think we, as the public, will ever be privy to the information that lead these guys to storm Vang Khang’s house, nor will the information that lead the conclusion that he needed to be apprehended in an early morning raid (or why *anyone* has to be subjected to such a raid) be made public.

What’s troubling, though, is the “Just following orders” excuse. I realize they have a job to do and superiors to answer to, but what needs to happen before we as a community start demanding accountability? Not to dust off a tired old cliche, but we are their employers and there are situtaions where we deserve an explanation. What’s more troubling is when you do a Google News Search such as this.

What has to happen before the tactics are changed? There have already been plenty of fatalities on “our” side… Do officers need to die, too?

I think if it came to that our freedoms would only be further eroded.

Binky’s absolutely right. This is far from an isolated incident, there is a very strong need for oversight and accountability that hasn’t been met.

Just look at this map: http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

.. the investigators looking into a street gang, that could have at least run the addresses to look for red flags.

I sort of made this point in yesterday’s news thread. How likely is it that a Hmong immigrant is hanging out and sheltering African-American Gang members?

Dear Mr. Vang…

This is a public service announcement
With guitar
Know your rights all three of them

Number 1
You have the right not to be killed
Murder is a crime!
Unless it was done by a
Policeman or aristocrat
Know your rights

And number 2
You have the right to food money
Providing of course you
Dont mind a little
Investigation, humiliation
And if you cross your fingers
Rehabilitation

Know your rights
These are your rights

Know these rights

Number 3
You have the right to free
Speech as long as youre not
Dumb enough to actually try it.

Know your rights
These are your rights
All three of em
It has been suggested
In some quarters that this is not enough!
Well…………………………

Get off the streets
Get off the streets
Run
You dont have a home to go to
Smush

Finally then I will read you your rights

You have the right to remain silent
You are warned that anything you say
Can and will be taken down
And used as evidence against you

Listen to this
Run

I know it’s pie-in-the-sky dreaming but maybe if, in the event of an erroneous raid, the MPD had to automatically forfeit $100k (or more?) to the homeowner plus pay for any repairs there might be some additional time taken the next time before SWAT is sent out half-cocked?

There’s no question the wrong house was raided. There shouldn’t even be the need for the homeowner to have to take the city to court to receive compensation. And, yes, I do believe compensation is rightfully due in cases like this.

If I were on the SWAT team, I’d be furious, because someone put me in more danger than I should have been. I’d expect the advance work to be done properly. Officers could have been killed.

noodleman, I thought I read that the MPD has already promised to pay for repairs to the house.

oh noodleman, you can bet there will be a lawsuit filed.

this is such a lame comment–>”It was bad information that came on the informants end, not on the police end,” said Jesse Garcia, a Minneapolis Police spokesman.

The informant gives information which is then analyzed. That is the police’s responsiblity.
If they were truly doing adequate surveiilance on the place they would have probably noticed that there were no black gangbangers hanging out, right?

Poor sloppy police work. They need to just admit that.

Repairs plus additional compensation, per my post. I don’t think a couple of thousand for new windows is “just compensation,” certainly not in the area of “pain and suffering.”

Police departments need to know that there are penalties — beyond home repairs — to be paid for their mistakes. I don’t think this should even need to go through the courts, either. The MPD admitted they made a mistake. That should trigger, in the future, automatic penalty payments above and beyond window replacement or other home damage repairs.

Actually, what would work best is if the friggin’ government and police would just give up their “war on drugs” and legalize the stuff.

ok, did the guy fire a ahotgun or a huinting rifle at the officers? I’ve heard both,

Desrusha?

The problem with the department promising to pay for the repairs to the house is that the department is drawing their funds from us, the tax payers. To repair the house means a budget shortfall somewhere else… less education spending. One more street in disrepair. Another park closing. And the state twists our arm, citing larger than expected expenditures. Every time the state settles with one of its victims of state-sponsered brutality, those expenses get larger.

All because someone screwed up.

There was a sentiment stated on another board that the officer found to be ultimately responsible for any botched raids should pay for the repairs out of his 401K.

I would modify that to say:

Where there was an obvious breakdown in the research process and the documentation of that research, or just a general lack of common sense, the officer in charge (either the “team captain”, or the police department brass authorizing the raid; or the panel of officers thereof) should have to pay 25% of the settlement from their 401K or respective retirement account, not to equal more than 25% of said assets.

This seems like a harsh measure, but it would hopfully ensure that the lead officer (or panel of officers) would make sure every “i” is dotted and every “t” crossed before they pile into the SWAT van to roll on the raid.

That, as a minimum, should be a condition for police agencies nationwide.

Actually, what would work best is if the friggin’ government and police would just give up their “war on drugs” and legalize the stuff.

I think they were going after guns. This wasn’t a drug raid. got a problem with that?.

ok, did the guy fire a shotgun or a huinting rifle at the officers?

I’ve seen a few differing accounts, myself.

The pictures some networks are showing of the damage are consitent with a shotgun blast, FWIW. Whether it was one of the SWAT guys or Mr. Vang would be an interesting question.

If it was a hunting rifle he’s lucky those bullets didn’t kill someone in Northeast…that is the worst weapon to have for home defnse!

I think they were going after guns. This wasn’t a drug raid.

Wanna bet that the police believed the alleged guns were to be used for drug running or other drug-related crimes?

Btw, PiPress columnist Ruben Rosario has this take on the situation, including the observation that a majority of the 50,000 “no knock” warrants last year nationwide were prompted by anti-drug trafficking crackdowns:

Botched police raids not so rare

Generally, guns are used in crimes, yes.

you don’t have to convince me the war on drugs is a farse. I was just correcting your assumption that this particalr raid was for illegal guns, not illegal drugs. Carry on.

If it was a hunting rifle he’s lucky those bullets didn’t kill someone in Northeast…that is the worst weapon to have for home defnse!

If it was a hunting rifle, I would wonder what caliber.

The most common calibers (shy of .22LR) are .30-’06 and .308 Win.

Depending on the range, the angle, and the type of body armor the officers are pretty damn lucky to be going on administrative leave and not to the morgue.

Generally, guns are used in crimes, yes.

I’m not taking the bait on this one…

I was just correcting your assumption that this particalr raid was for illegal guns, not illegal drugs.

And I was just covering my ass.

I don’t think the “just following orders isn’t good enough” thing applies to this case. Usually that’s an valid complaint in a situation where the person following the orders knows the moral implications of the act but is ignoring them, the excuse being to “follow orders”.

To do their job, the SWAT guys have to operate under the assumption that the investigators are doing theirs. It’s not reasonable to ask them to do their job, and that of the investigators.

If I were on the SWAT team, I’d be furious, because someone put me in more danger than I should have been. I’d expect the advance work to be done properly. Officers could have been killed.

And could you imagine killing a completely innocent person just protecting their family? Yes, I’d be very pissed if I were on the SWAT team.

binky, no offense, but that 401k punishment is crap. they need to fire people who make these mistakes, then make them liable for a civil suit filed by the wronged party. Or at least just straight up fire them.
None of this weak-ass disciplinary shit that lets them keep their job and retirement. No pension for you!

This is one of my biggest fears, home invasion. I hope everyone in that family is getting mental health services, because I know I’d be pretty screwed up after this.

also, it’s really not the SWAT team’s fault. it’s whomever told them to raid the house.

blaming the SWAT team is like blaming the rank and file guys in the military for the Iraq war. It was the collosal intelligent fuckup from the top that caused it, they’re just doing their job.

uh, wow, typos.

intelligence.
and house’s.

binky, no offense, but that 401k punishment is crap. they need to fire people who make these mistakes, then make them liable for a civil suit filed by the wronged party. Or at least just straight up fire them.
None of this weak-ass disciplinary shit that lets them keep their job and retirement. No pension for you!

They should lose their jobs, I agree.

I still hold to the fact that the loss of some of their 401K savings will have an added sting, as well as easing the burden on the taxpayers who, until things change, wil continue to bear the burden of paying for activities like this.

The 25% (per occurence, maybe?) forfeiture cap for the 401K example would be so that as they retire we won’t end up supporting them anyway when their life savings dry up.

Our legal system has been in dire need of reform for a long time, but try and find a legislator willing to take on the “soft on crime” flak that would follow any attempt.

This type of stuff happens because of poor intelligence which comes from paid informants, narcs, and the more and more used shady “anonymous tip”.

As to the gun: sure looked like a shotgun blast of pellets to me. I’ll try to find out.

As to the raid: Our sources tell us it was a weapons raid (and police say they got weapons at the first two houses they raided). The professor I spoke with said that drug warrants aren’t usually as time-sensitive, and so there’s typically actual surveillance done before a no-knock raid.

With weapons, you can’t really wait as long. There’s an imminent risk. Still- they got a warrant– so there was time to do paperwork, and time to run the address.

Our sources tell us it was a weapons raid (and police say they got weapons at the first two houses they raided). The professor I spoke with said that drug warrants aren’t usually as time-sensitive, and so there’s typically actual surveillance done before a no-knock raid

Maybe not, but most of the times this happens it’s over drugs. A quick Google search of Drug raid gone wrong turns up plenty.

Considering a majority of arrests are drug-related, it would make sense that a majority warrants are drug-related, and most mistakes are drug-related.

Drug crime is far more prevalent than any other type of crime.

and binky, most police get pensions. they’re terrified of losing that when they start getting older.

If I were on the SWAT team, I’d be furious, because someone put me in more danger than I should have been. I’d expect the advance work to be done properly. Officers could have been killed.

I would say they were actually in LESS danger raiding the wrong house. Raiding an innocent person’s home, their much more likely to be met with NO return fire. If this had been the correct house, they would have potentially faced much more firepower than a shotgun.

The other big difference I see: if a SWAT member had been killed raiding the wrong house, the homeowner probably still wouldn’t be facing charges. Probably Not so if it had been the correct house.

legalize the drugs and the guns will go away! we’ve created this entire crime problem with our attempts at social engineering!

just regulate it like liquor and cigarettes!

sure, some kids will get high! but they do already! you’re not stopping anyone with this bullshit, just making everything more dangerous!

some kids will get high!

I think it’s more than kids getting high.

I still think its ok! Regulate It!

Too bad the GD Puritans would never allow that.
That being said I was over that phase before I finished college.

If they had the right house, theoretically they should know more what to expect. ((how many people inside, where the guns are, etc.)). With the wrong house– you’re flying blind. It’s the unpredictability that makes things potentially more dangerous.

It’s the unpredictability that makes things potentially more dangerous.
As a country we’ve known that about the police for years and years and yet we can’t do a dang thing about the problem.

Considering a majority of arrests are drug-related, it would make sense that a majority warrants are drug-related, and most mistakes are drug-related.
Not according to your earlier quote from professor smarty pants.

“professor I spoke with said that drug warrants aren’t usually as time-sensitive, and so there’s typically actual surveillance done before a no-knock raid.
“

Typically is the operative word. I’m guessing (because I don’t have the data in front of me) that the majority of high-risk, no-knock warrants served are drug-related. Even with more time for surveillance, it would make sense that there would be mistakes with drug-related warrants.

But it’s fun to nitpick, so have at it.

The other big difference I see: if a SWAT member had been killed raiding the wrong house, the homeowner probably still wouldn’t be facing charges. Probably Not so if it had been the correct house.

I really doubt that. As I mentioned above, If a SWAT member had been killed, Khang would be more likely to be dead like Kathryn Johnston or in jail for murder like Cory Maye.

A related article “7 Officers On Paid Leave After Raid Goes Awry”.

So I guess that’s atleast 7 more dangerous guns off the street.

can’t wait to see this board light up the next time an innocent gets killed in the crossfire.

more cops on the streets!
tar & feather rybak!

people make mistakes. nobody died (thank god).learn from it & move on.

if this was a case of gross negligence, i could understand your indignation.

can’t wait to see this board light up the next time an innocent gets killed in the crossfire.

Do you mean like this guy or maybe the Mark Loesch debacle?
There’s no need to wait. Go ahead and check out the comment threads.

people make mistakes. nobody died (thank god).learn from it & move on.

Well, that’s the problem Russ. They will never learn because there is rarely any accountability besides a slap on the wrist and paid administrative leave.

This has happened many times before and will happen many times again, next time it could be you or someone you’re close to. What then? Oh well, just another mistake?

jimn
Whenver you have houses full of shitbag gangsters with guns, we are going to have raids. What do you recommend? not raiding houses?

It was a mistake, a sloppy one at that, but it can be used as a learning experience.

Shitbird is the proper terminology.

I prefer dickhole or some other variation of and add on to the word “dick.”

What a scary experience for the family. As much as a clusterf$%k this was, I don’t think we can blame the SWAT guys. It sounds as if they are pretty torn up about it being the wrong family and that there were children involved. Thankfully the kids were home (and not harmed) as they were the ones who were able to communicate to their father that it was the police.

Was there a reason for the police to believe they were wrong and to believe they needed to check the address again? I am in no way defending what happened, but if there wasn’t cause for the police to think that the information was wrong, why would they question it?

Maybe this will help them put checks in place to prevent this from happening in the future.

Regarding these sentences:

Khang said he grabbed the shotgun from a closet and fired three shots out his bedroom door.

Two officers were hit by bullets, they were not injured.

I believe using the term “bullet” to describe the lead what comes out of a shotgun barrel is inaccurate. “Pellet” or “slug” would be correct, depending on how the firearm was loaded. I could be wrong.

I had a friend in college who loved the terms dickmunch or dicksmoker.

The Daily Mole has some interesting stats and points related to this conversation. Botched MPD raid: the day-after stories

Was there a reason for the police to believe they were wrong and to believe they needed to check the address again? I am in no way defending what happened, but if there wasn’t cause for the police to think that the information was wrong, why would they question it?

From the news reports, it doesn’t sound like they took any steps to confirm the information beyond saying “Oh, the last two tips were good.”

It should be SOP that they take some kind of step to verify information before they do this kind of a raid, regardless of the informant’s track record.

It doesn’t have to be comprehensive surveillance. As Jason showed, a simple property record search should have revealed a discrepancy.

baker, I never said the raid was not justified, or that raids should never be used(although I do think they are grossly overused).

Wrong address raids have happened in Minneapolis before, and surprise, surprise, it happened again. The Pioneer Press has a good article today on the subject: Botched police raids not so rare

What in particular makes you think that the police will learn from this incident?

As Jason showed, a simple property record search should have revealed a discrepancy.
So Jason suggests racial profiling?

Then he further states “. . . African-American street gang. By typing in the address on the warrant, the Hennepin County property records site lists the homeowner as Vang Khang. ,” because you know people of different races can’t live together or be in the same gang right?

From what little I understand of gangs, not usually…but that’s only what I see on the news and read in the papers…

I’m waiting for the other shoe to drop. I think this informant went to the cops with bad information, information he/she was given to show that he/she was a snitch.

My prediction: this informant will be in the news again real soon. And not in a good way.

Anyone the believes the police and SWAT are innocent in this situation really needs to read this report

Also, there’s extensive research done on the psychology of why SWAT teams wear hoods and head coverings during raids. Most of the research concludes the coverings allow the police to dehumanize those they raid. e.g. People are more prone to do really bad things when they know they can’t be identified.

As for the confidential informant and the “other shoe dropping”; don’t count on it making the media when it happens. When it comes to confidential informants no price is too large if they are telling the police what they want to hear and if things go wrong no one knows who they were when they disappear.

The homeowner bares some blame. His gun escalated the raid and put himself and his family in greater danger.

Take away his gun and there is no story.

Binky, DON”T TAKE THE FLAMEBAIT!!!! Gahhh!

Even I can’t believe that anyone would blame the homeowner for protecting his family. ANYONE!

Peace Dove: Seriously? You’re going to blame the homeowner?

And how would this NOT be a story if the guy didn’t have a gun? The fact that the police broke into the wrong house is not a story to you?

His crazy shooting through a door caused the cops to shoot back. The cops are to blame but the homeowner was reckless as well. This is just another example as to why guns cause more problems, pain, death and sorrow than the ever solve. In England the cops don’t carry guns. Stuff like this doesn’t happen there. Violence begets violence.

There’s NO violence in England? Ever? I find that hard to believe. WHere’s Teucer?

There’s NO violence in England?

See any of the “Prime Suspect” miniseries on PBS…

I also think that there are special law enforcement teams in the UK (like our SWAT) that carry guns…but I’m not 100% sure…

I totally watched that last night just plain Bob!

You wouldn’t believe the crazy violence that happens in my little English village of St. Mary Mead.

They carry guns on Torchwood!

They have actual hot man on man kissing too!

I am trying to decide if the cops did a great job responding to being fired on by not killing anyone, or if they should be ashamed that one guy with a shotgun in the closet could hit two of them before they could react.

I like Duy Ngo’s theory that the informant is revealed by the false info.

I would not expect anything resembling an admission of a mistake, a correction in procedures, or any sort of accountability.

Dude…I watched Lock Stock and 2 Smoking Barrels three times. There’s violence in England.

Had the same thought, Paulie.

Helen Mirren rocks, Christine.

Stop dealing rock out of your knitting bag, Miss M!

I’ve been thinking about this and my question is, how did they get a warrant without pulling the owner of the home? Isn’t this necessary? Clearly I’ve never gotten a warrant before, but it seems like you would need this information before a judge would give you permission to go in unannounced.

Any one have the legal background to know what is needed to get a warrant?

Prime Suspect is great! (Although, did it have to air at the same time as the Vikings game?) Lock, Stock and 2 Smoking Barrels is also great. Mr. Madonna (Guy Ritchie) has made some good films! (Snatch is also quite good)

how did they get a warrant

That’s an excellent question for some reporter to follow up on. Some criminal informant type can spit out an address, then snap your fingers and warrants shall issue and swat teams bust down doors. Is there a particular judge that has a low standard for signing warrants or do they all get issued with such little scrutiny?

2:30 PM on December 18

It’s not 2:30.

peace dove,
what if they had been home invading gangbangers?
Would you have preferred that the homeowner just take some bullets and be done with it?

What in particular makes you think that the police will learn from this incident?

Well, I think that this will force police to double check informant information more carefuly and do some more surveillance befor busting doors. I hope anyways.

there’s no requirement for the name of the homeowner to be on a warrant — just a physical description and an address.

what if they had been home invading gangbangers?

Well we could play the “What if” game ’til the cows come home:

What if they were Aliens?

What if they were the Publisher’s Clearinghouse Prize Patrol?

or

….the plumber, come to fix the sink?

or

…the cast of “Punk’d?”

or

…the Insane Clown Posse?

In most cases people who own guns and keep them in their homes for self defense stand far greater chance of having a violent crime committed against them, often with their own weapon. Home Invasion is extremely rare. Bad people do bad things. Why fight fire with fire?

Choose peace and choose to live with love in your heart and you will see that reflected back to you in the world you live in.

Choose peace and choose to live with love in your heart and you will see that reflected back to you in the world you live in.

Haha! Say, I’ll never own a gun, nor do I advocate violence, but this is a pretty naive outlook on life…shitty, sick things happen to good people everyday, and most of them don’t own guns.

How do they explain all of the other wrong addresses that they served search warrants on. MPD has a culture of a rough and tough/Might is Right mindset. So these raids are encouraged and only the cool guys are allowed on the swat team. I would be worried if I were the guys that wrote up the search warrant. I heard it is an inexperienced and newly appointed cop. And that he pushed his informant to give false information so he could try to show-off to his peers. The police department should pay for all of the psychological treatment that the whole family will need. And pay for an interpreter to translate for the family since the cops say that there was a language problem!

Let’s keep in mind it was a hunting gun, it wasn’t an automatic or something. While I am for tougher gun control, the guy has the right to a hunting rifle without a doubt.

Binky, DON”T TAKE THE FLAMEBAIT!!!! Gahhh!

…

Let’s keep in mind it was a hunting gun, it wasn’t an automatic or something. While I am for tougher gun control, the guy has the right to a hunting rifle without a doubt.

Not… taking… bait…

*choke*

Its his house he can have any type of gun he wants in his own home. What would any of you do if your door was kicked down in the middle of the night and you had your family in there? What if the cops did not announce themselves. Would you let the bad guys(if they were robbers)hurt or kill your family?

Holding breath…

Turning blue…

This episode demonstrates the danger of coupling high-risk police tactics with poor police intelligence. As departments nationwide have come to employ SWAT tactics in ever-growing types of situations, mistakes have become costlier and more tragic. The volatile nature of a night-time SWAT raid creates a poor environment for evaluating and correcting faulty information, and it raises the stakes for all involved.

While there are legitimate applications for these kinds of tactics, police agencies need to carefully assess how they use them. However, in many jurisdictions, a growing culture of police paramilitarism has sent the trend-line in the opposite direction.

For some interesting local history on the growth of no-knock SWAT raids, see this City Pages article. by Amanda Ferguson. I’ll also have a piece on The Uptake soon that looks at this dynamic as it played out nine years ago at the Highway 55 encampment.

This episode demonstrates the danger of coupling high-risk police tactics with poor police intelligence.

And of living in this country without knowing basic English. Had the guy known that “police” meant police, he might have reacted differently.

I blame the police unions and their obsession with members’ safety. I mean, people writing parking tickets are wearing bullet-proof vests. Come on. Back in the day, this situation would have been handled by three uniformed officers knocking on the door and delivering a search warrant. Now that’s deemed “too risky.” My sister is a former deputy sheriff. Back in the day, she used to deliver warrants to creeps and thugs in the city’s worst neighborhoods, by herself, without a bullet-proof vest. And she’s a girl!

Using the Swat team at every possible opportunity, even for petty situations, also helps the city justify this team’s very existence and the very expensive equipment that goes along with it.

The police have become common, uniformed bureaucrats, not the special heroes of public safety that they used to be. And I blame the unionist mentality that dominates today’s police forces.

Carry on.

And of living in this country without knowing basic English. Had the guy known that “police” meant police, he might have reacted differently.
This is one where I’m gonna cal BS…

There are cases where home invasions are performed by people posing to be police, imitating the tactics, using the gear, and other tactics up to and including shouting “POLICE” at the top of their lungs.

As for learning a second language… it has been shown that in a high-stress situation (early morning home invasion raid, perhaps?) even people fluent in two languages will revert to their native language.

I’m all for a certain level of cultural assimilation, but I do believe in preservation of the languages and traditions of a culture, too.

In many counties, people have good reason to fear the police, or anyone else with a uniform and a gun.

“commonsense”: There are many circumstances where you point falls apart. Reversion to native language, immigrants from countries where the authorities are to be feared, and criminals posing as the police have all been mentioned. There are also situations with HOH/deaf people such as myself. I’m probably going to hear somebody bashing in my door and storming my home, but there’s no way I’m going to comprehend that they’re yelling “police”, even if I manage to pick out the voices from all of the commotion.

dennis: This isn’t “back in the day” any more. When people are toting around more power than the average cop carries along, even a petty traffic stop carries extremely high risk. It’s not Mayberry anymore. My cousin was a cop a few years ago. Made a routine traffic stop in rural Illinois, and got shot in the neck. One mm over to the left, it would have severed his carotid artery and he would have bled out before help arrived.

In many counties, people have good reason to fear the police, or anyone else with a uniform and a gun.
This country happens to be heading to the top of that list.

What if one of those children got shot or killed. Who do they blame the cops or the informant. Its not the first time they “got the wrong house.”