Secrets of the City

MPR isn’t the media?

I think they mean media with an audience/readership in thriple digits or more….

I see two typos in this morning’s posts, max.

You’re mad, I tells ya.

Well you caught one.

They mean stories the media missed as noticed by the participants/listeners of the show in the Loop. We were at that taping and enjoyed it thoroughly.

In the media’s defense, today Kersten details the problems Christian and Jewish students are having at Normandale.

Yup. They got the prayer room. I’m sure a wife beating / honor killing room will be next on the agenda.

lol @ gay sports leagues.

What are gay sports? besides figure skating…

Kersten’s a quack, of course, but if the stuff in her column is true, it is pretty freaking ridiculous.

Gay baseball is going well I hear. The catchers taking a lot of balls in the chin though….

Baking cookies, wearing make up..

Has anyone ever told Kersten that life isn’t far? She’ll complain about the smallest thing.

A minority group is getitng treated special! Stop the presses!

Like WASPs never get special treatment. Oh, no. That never happens.

She doesn’t seem to be complaining about anything.

A rather straightforward factual recounting from the way I read it.

Naturally, she has a point of view, like any other columnist of any other political stripe. But she seems to have set it aside somewhat.

Although, to be fair, Kersten’s really only concerned about the WASCs…

I don’t know how you know that.

I find it odd that she quoted four or five individuals, but none were the Muslim students who she demonized. Is that chickenshit or chickenhawk?

And of course there was no Torah in the room…Jews don’t go to community college. duh.

You people who have a beef with Kersten’s logic are fulla BS.

There is no reason this accomodation should be made at a public college. When I went to college at a state school, there was a nearby off campus chapel for us Catholics, and those snake handling Protestants also had one. NOT ACCOMODATED BY THE UNIVERSITY ITSELF.

This is wrong on many levels, not the least of which is these people want this facility handed to them at public expense. Buy a piece of adjacent property and put up a mosque for crying out loud. Problem solved.

I don’t really see anything wrong with Kersten’s article.
Why is she wrong for pointing out negative literature in a educational institution?

So, grote:

What perspective could the students bring that is missing here?

What do you need to know from them?

I don’t the students are doing anything too out of line unless they’re really hassling other students who show up there. They’re just taking as much as they can get from the College’s decision to set up this room. That seems like natural behavior.

They should get rid of the hate literature, though.

Rat…you just answered your own question…howz ’bout:

“why do you feel the need to post hate literature?”

I suppose she could have done her best to get a straight answer from them.

But it’s not like the account is totally incomplete without the student perspective.

Like I said, the students will take as much as they’re allowed.

It’s the university that should be accountable.

I see this as yet another assualt on Americans’ right to play racquetball…

Racquetball is sooo 1980s.

It’s fear of being viewed as intolerant that drives many places to accomodate muslims differently then people of other faiths.
If there is a muslim prayer room, there should be a room specificaly for the other major faiths, or no rooms at all. I’d prefer none at all, as in my opinion religion should be a personal thing done on one’s own time.

I question how they handle breaks required by muslims to pray during the day at workplaces.

That’s because you never pray.

We had a prayer room when I worked at Hennepin County. No one every complained. Muslims were tired of praying at their desks and being interrupted by their co-workers. It had a sign on the outside saying if a woman or man was using it at the time. Anyone could use it, but no one else did.

Who cares?

Oh, and the religious tracks? Doesn’t KK think that maybe the Muslim women were also offended? Being they were in college and all they probably didn’t like what they implied about their choices.

KK is a hateful woman.

Re: Stories the media missed

I was at the show and it was a lot of fun. Did anyone listen to the podcast?

KK is a hateful woman.

Perhaps, but what does that have to do with the substance of the story?

I’m sure her other posts contain some hateful words, but I don’t see much in this article. How do you guys feel about special rooms for muslim praying?

Well, considering that when most protestants pray, it’s not at all obvious, I have no problem with there being prayer rooms for observant muslims. Christ, some businesses also have “pumping rooms” for nursing mothers so they don’t have to use the breast pump in the bathroom. What’s the big deal?

It’s not so much the hate, but the ignorance.

She’s being blatantly ignorant of the fact that people of the Muslim faith pray five times a day, the fact that most of the Muslims at Normandale are probably Somali immgrants, the fact that Somalia is a war-torn country that makes refugees out of it’s citizens. They come here for a better life and KK wants to beat them back.

Anyone who ever bothered to observe and read anything about the topic she’s writing about would know this. She’s choosing to leave those things and how they interconnect with the current prayer room issue out.

i’d say the muslims are assimilating nicely to the american way of life. take, take, take and take some more. good grief those school admins have no balls.

although they should put in foot washing bowls in the bathroom. putting one’s stank nasty feet in a sink is gross.

I feel glad I’m not confronted with having to make the decision. You’ll alienate one group or another not matter what you do.

the fact that Somalia is a war-torn country that makes refugees out of it’s citizens. They come here for a better life and KK wants to beat them back.

How the Sam Hill did you come up with that?

i doubt kersten is ignorant of the fact muslims pray 5x per day.

it’s odd how most people on mnspeak are typically vehementally opposed to the marriage of religion and state….yet somehow always want to make concessions for muslims. i don’t get it.

I read it on Wiki!

It was part of my diversity training last week.

I swear!!!

Alie,
The issue here is that special changes are being made to accomodate one faith only. Would this be equally honored for non-religious people or people of another faith?
I’d like a beige room with nice big windows and numerous house plants that I can use to meditate and relax several times during the day. No flourescent lights please. Inside it I’d like agnostic literature and science books on evolution.
How would that request go over?

KK is a hateful woman.

Perhaps, but what does that have to do with the substance of the story?

It is the substance of the story. KK is spreading hate. She is getting people riled up about a non-issue in the name of demonizing Muslims and people who try to respectfully accomadate their religion.

And this is not accomodating one religion only, everyone is allowed to use it.

Well, baker, I’m sure if you got enough people together to put pressure on the “powers that be” you could get what you want. I think that’s what’s happening here. If protestants, athiests, catholics, whomever, want something at work, they better organize their shit and start asking. My dad always said, “you’ll never know the answer to your question until you ask it.”

Wait a minute!

If I were living in a foreign country, I wouldn’t make demands on my new country to change for me and my religous beliefs.

Good point!

ARGH!

I don’t see a lot of riled people here. It’s a discussion on the issue of whether you should allow a religious room in a publicly funded school.

Who’s being hated?

Is she saying something hateful?

Please point it out.

Seems to be some hatefult tracts, but it wasn’t about Mulslims, it was about Jews and Christians.

It’s a discussion on the issue of whether you should allow a religious room in a publicly funded school.

As it’s been said before this is not a religious room. It’s a meditation room where people of any religion can pray or the non religious can meditate.

I’m not so sure about the legality of the required separation of the sexes or the alleged distribution of anti-Christian and anti-Jewish literature, but those points don’t seem to be what people are talking about.

First, the hateful tracts were also against Muslim women. I don’t agree with the tracts and I would bet most of the Muslim’s who use the room also disagree. But did she ask any of the Muslim’s about it? No.

Yes, she is saying something hateful. The underlying message is that Muslims are changing our way of life and forcing our schools to do immoral things.

Has KK wrote a column about those terrorist kids who pray around the flagpoles in the mornings? Did you know the schools allow it? Did you know that while non-Christians are allowed they don’t feel comfortable joining them? Did you know that they hand out tracts saying that Christianity is the only way to go and if you don’t follow them you will go to hell? And that no one else is allowed to use the flagpole at that time?

No, she hasn’t written that. Because she doesn’t have a problem with it. She has a problem with Muslims and is trying to make us all have a problem with them. That is hateful.

I don’t agree with the tracts

That’s good.

and I would bet most of the Muslim’s who use the room also disagree.

I would hope. But I wouldn’t bet.

But did she ask any of the Muslim’s about it? No.

So what?

Who are the “terrorist kids” who play around the flagpole?

These kids. Plus lots of kids do it once a week or so.

Another story the media missed: Bob’s Tricked Out Zamboni!

When you call them “terrorist kids” are you saying that Kerstin or someone else is calling the Muslim kids at Normandale terrorists?

If so, where?

Alie,
Part of me thinks this was not a result of an organized group of muslims complaining to school administration, but instead the School’s fear of being ostracized for not being ‘accepting’ to muslims by not providing a special prayer room.

Do we have any source that tells us how the initiative started?

And this is not accomodating one religion only, everyone is allowed to use it.
I’m not a religious man, but I can not imagine people of different faiths praying alongside eachother a very comfortable experience. Especially when the room you wish to pray in has literature proclaiming you as the enemy.

Oh, ye of little faith, baker.

Yea, in a perfect world, Bob…..people would actualy think in this manner.

What are gay sports? besides figure skating…

Figure skating is cool, jerk faes.
———-
I’m amused that KK is being accused of spreading hate. If Normandale’s prayer room is any indication of the Islamic faith, it’s a pretty hateful thing in its own right. (Countless acts of radical Islamic terrorism notwithstanding.) Go to an Islamic country and insist on a Christian or Jewish prayer room, see how that goes for you and then maybe a discussion of hate would be in order.

Baker, I’m not sure how the initiative came about, either, but I wonder if it wasn’t local mosque leaders taking up the cause of their members…has been know to happen. But like I said, it’s fine with me that there are areas made available for people to practice their faith. I’m also very happy that MCTC and Metro State are kind enough to provide me with a small stretch of windy sidewalk where I may practice my faith in RJ Reynolds. Thanks guys!

Bob, as usual you’ve gone too far, zambonis and corn were never meant to mix.

Go to an Islamic country and insist on a Christian or Jewish prayer room, see how that goes for you and then maybe a discussion of hate would be in order.

I hear this argument all the time, and it confuses me. Who cares what they do? I would like to think that religions are treated better in the United States than they are elsewhere in the world.

Oh, and ikf you want to see literature that casts other religions as the enemy, check out Jack Chick’s treatment of Catholics in his various fundamentalist tracts.

Does that have some relevance to this discussion, Max?

A problem I have with the KK article is that the depiction is that the room, a raquetball court, is entirely taken over by the gender segregated prayer area. Is that possible? Racquetball court dimensions are usually 20′ x 40′ That is a big area for a minority faith. I doubt that the small group of Muslim students occupy that much floor space. Someone should go do some primary research and post a diagram.

Another question I have is whether the non-muslim students feel intimidated by the muslims, and so avoid the meditation room?

And asking me to take off my shoes? You don’t want that.

Yes, rat, If you look back just a few comments, you’ll see this:

Especially when the room you wish to pray in has literature proclaiming you as the enemy.

Lunch, keep in mind that muslims need to lay down during prayer, and stretch out, therefore taking up more room than those of other faiths.

If you were a Christian woman would you feel comfortable praying in a room full of male muslims? I would not.

Good point about the shoes. If this is a meditation room open to any religion, why should students of other religions be required to observe a Muslim custom?

If you were a Christian woman would you feel comfortable praying in a room full of male muslims? I would not.

I would be OK if they were Sunni…but if the room were full of Shiite, it might be problematic.

Rat, another good point about the difficulties of one room being used across faiths.

See how complicated this gets? It would be so dam sensical to just say “Pray at home.”

Especially when the room you wish to pray in has literature proclaiming you as the enemy.

But Mr. Chick’s writings are not in the room as far as we know.

That fact that they exist is irrelevant to this particular discussion.

I don’t think I would have a problem with it, baker, but that’s just me…

Oh, for god’s sake, Rat…

Try walking around the U of M campus some time, Rat. And try not to be deliberately obtuse. This entire discussion is rooted in hypotheticals, but you want to disallow mine?

Alie, but you are a strong, outspoken confident young lady. I think…

“Go to an Islamic country and insist on a Christian or Jewish prayer room, see how that goes for you and then maybe a discussion of hate would be in order.

I hear this argument all the time, and it confuses me. Who cares what they do? I would like to think that religions are treated better in the United States than they are elsewhere in the world.”

You also need to consider that they are essentially theocratic states. Of course other faiths aren’t going to be particularly welcome in theocratic states. Russia, a largely Eastern Orthodox country, is not very hospitable to Evangelical Protestants.

What kevin is trying to point out has more to do with the theocratic/authoritarian nature of the countries.

Alie, but you are a strong, outspoken confident young lady. I think…

And also not a Christian, so I can say those things and never have to back them up…ha!

She’s being blatantly ignorant of the fact that people of the Muslim faith pray five times a day, the fact that most of the Muslims at Normandale are probably Somali immgrants, the fact that Somalia is a war-torn country that makes refugees out of it’s citizens. They come here for a better life and KK wants to beat them back

Why are we as taxpayers paying anthing for some religiuose groups prayer room. I don’t care about what group a particular person affiliates with, the fact is it is unconstational to propagate any religion. If you want to pray five times a day, great but I should not have to fund that or a bible study room. Once the door is open it is hard to shut it. The somali’s have every right to be who and what they are but I do not feel it is my obligation to pay for it. I hope they cut the budget for higher ed if this is what it goes to.

Yes, try being Muslim or Jewish in 15th Century Spain. No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Wait, the U.S. has to be as tolerant of other religions as Saudi Arabia… Not England or Canada or other western countries.

What I meant to say was there are places where people would just as soon cut your head off or blow up you and 40 of your closest fellow civilians than let you worship someone other than he who cannot be drawn or named for a teddy bear yet praised right before you commit an act of terrorism. But here in the great satan, our public schools give his worshipers a nice little gender-segregated space to stretch out and pray.

Still, Kevin, what’s your point?

Why are we as taxpayers paying anthing for some religiuose groups prayer room. I don’t care about what group a particular person affiliates with, the fact is it is unconstational to propagate any religion.

I agree with this, actually. I don’t mind there being a space for Muslims to pray, but they shoot foot the bill themselves, even by just renting the space.

I do not see the use of a meditation room as a slide to dhimmitude, like KK sees it. I see that as the natural self-selection that folks with common interests or practices do. And as midwesterners, often when we try not to offend others, we allow ourselves to be marginalized. So my hypothetical is that the non-muslim students would look into the room and largely feel like the room was not for them, despite official claims to the contrary, and the only non-muslim students who would go into the room would be those looking to start a ruckus or falderall.

Denying Muslims access to a clean private space to pray at school would be marginalizing them, denying them the benefit of education. Then we would be creating another underclass, oh joy just what we(like I am in power?) need.

Everytime someone brings up religious intolerance we go right to the Inquisition, as if the Spaniards had a monopoly on the concept. Please, every society has an ‘other’ their ruling classes can use for to mollify their masses with. When they get through with one they move onto another.

Lunch, keep in mind that muslims need to lay down during prayer, and stretch out, therefore taking up more room than those of other faiths.

If you were a Christian woman would you feel comfortable praying in a room full of male muslims? I would not.

Who cares about either group, this is the problem. Pray were you want to, but pay for your own place to pray. I could care less were you feel comfortable praying. Pray were you want but leave the tax payer out of it. Religious tolerance is not religious acceptance. I don’t give a shit about any of your religions, in the end you all want me to capitulate to your beliefs and then cut you a check. Build your own place to worship, quit getting welfare payment for your particular religious groups wants and needs.

Denying Muslims access to a clean private space to pray at school would be marginalizing them, denying them the benefit of education. Then we would be creating another underclass, oh joy just what we(like I am in power?) need.

Bullshit, they can go and raise funds and build their own place to pray. If you don’t like the separation of church and state in this country move.

Your ancestors all got this same religious persecution.

–

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

Denying Muslims access to a clean private space to pray at school would be marginalizing them, denying them the benefit of education.
Bullshit. We are offering them education, not customized religious facilities. There is a big difference and there should be, as the majority of americans would tell you.

It’s opening a can of worms that we are not prepared for nor should we be. People can pray at home, or silently at their desks (or pay for your special room yourselves). We’ve all had to make exceptions or alter certain behaviors at school and at the workplace during our lives. Muslims should be no exception, IMO. And we should not be funding this.

Build your own place to worship, quit getting welfare payment for your particular religious groups wants and needs.
A new harsh lesson about being an American: we don’t(shouldn’t) fund religion. They do in Europe, East Asia and the Midddle East, but we do not. Hurrah!

No, you misunderstand me. I am saying that it will be a defacto marginalization, not institutional. Some will suck it up and go to school, while others will see it as risking their entrance to heaven and avoid it. These students will likely have to do what Catholics did in the past(to avoid praying protestant prayers) and create their own educational institutions.

Should the believers fund their own durn chapels and whatnot? Yes, absolutely. But these folks probably have no idea about that, they have not been shown that that is the proper way to do things yet, or some outside group has manipulated the situation to this state of things. Whatever you have a fine kettle of fish.

Whenever this issue is brought up (esp. the issue of separation of church and state) I always think of the phrase that we have the freedom of and from religion. I don’t get worked up when I hear that muslims want a private space to pray without interfering with others’ daily lives. What I hate,and am most worried about, are those in the Christian Religious Right using the government to enact laws to get the public to live by their religious values.

I agree. KK is using our seperation between church and state to cover up her intolerance of different religions.

I’ll take the religious right over the spew put forth at Normandale’s prayer room any day.
——–
but they shoot foot the bill themselves, even by just renting the space.

Shoot foot? What about Fred Smoot? w00t!

If I remember right, Rex disallowed links to KK because the threads just got to contrary. But I think this conversation has, for the most part, been civil and thoughtful, and I appreciate that.

ok, thanks for clarifying.

Some will suck it up and go to school, while others will see it as risking their entrance to heaven and avoid it. Sink or swim, I guess. Which is more important, this present life or a presumed future one? I’d go with the one in which I am responsible for bettering myself and feeding my family, but that’s just me.

If I remember right, Rex disallowed links to KK because the threads just got to contrary. But I think this conversation has, for the most part, been civil and thoughtful, and I appreciate that.

Still doesn’t explain “shoot foot” or the rest of Max’s Monday typo frenzy! Admit it m-dog, you’re wasted!

I’d go with the one in which I am responsible for bettering myself and feeding my family, but that’s just me.

It’s thoughts like that which could end the entire Israel-Palestine feud in a minute. Eat first ask questions later and vote with your feet when the paper ballots don’t work are on my family crest.

…using the government to enact laws to get the public to live by their religious values

I agree Alie, but I see even a step like this(prayer rooms in schools) as a step in the wrong direction. Doesn’t matter which sect it is, christians, muslims, etc.
It’s only a matter of time when all school districts will demand a bunch of rooms for a bunch of different religious groups in the name of ‘tolerance’, and we will end up footing those bills too (not to mention the social problems that most likely will result from accentuating/perpetuating religious differences).
I wish people in administrative positions would quit being so PC and so damn scared to just say NO and stand up to demands from religous groups that essentially go against what this country stands for.

It’s a can of worms we don’t want to even dent in the name of percieved intolerance!

I wish people in administrative positions would quit being so PC and so damn scared to just say NO and stand up to demands from religous groups that essentially go against what this country stands for.

They did in the 80’s when the fundies wanted to revive prayer and bible study in public schools and you should have seen the lawsuits fly. Even if they win the court case the expense is huge to fight. No admin. wants to be involved in a case that drags. The flippin’ ACLU (I have a love hate relationship with them) will and have taken those cases and devoted a lot of resources to them.

I really dislike the whole PC canard, the intention to not offend is nice, but the verbal gymnastics and fear of media scrutiny are so tiresome. Some nice direct speech and some trust and assumption of mutual goodwill would be even better.

I agree. KK is using our seperation between church and state to cover up her intolerance of different religions.

Could be, but if the point is valid, it remains valid regardless of her attitude toward Muslims.

But I think this conversation has, for the most part, been civil and thoughtful, and I appreciate that.

Well fuck you, then.

Admit it m-dog, you’re wasted!

Always just presume that I am.

“Should the believers fund their own durn chapels and whatnot?”

But what expenditure has Normandale actually put forth? They set aside a room that can be used by any student or group of student for meditation, contemplation, and yes, prayer.

There is no school policy that prohibits any otherwise qualified student or group from using the room.

There is no school policy that prohibits students of any gender from any portion of the room.

The only other thing the school has done, as far as I can tell, was construct a partial wall, dividing the room into sections. That could just as easily be used to allow two smaller groups to use the room at the same time. There’s nothing inherently religious about that (it’s not as if they spent public funds to construct an altar, or install a cross or crucifix, or hired a school chaplin, as was done in the past). If the students want to use it to segregate by gender, that’s their business, as long as the school has no role in enforcing it.

They can’t tell students that they can’t use a room to use for prayer (imagine KK’s reaction if Campus crusade for Christ, or Fellowship of Christian Athletes were told they couldn’t hold bible study on campus).

Admit it m-dog, you’re wasted!

Always just presume that I am.

Maybe you could put a little rotating button on the main page reminding visitors of that. Everybody likes rotating web graphics.

Ahh, FCA…I remember when I was at college, their bonfires were always streaked by my drunk friends and this was the reason they were so well attended…this was a Lutheran College, BTW.

There is no school policy that prohibits students of any gender from any portion of the room.
Absolutely, Normandale has so far done nothing wrong in my opinion. I think the whole situation has been one of defacto student activities rather than official policy or otherwise. Colleges and High Schools do not de-segregate lunch tables or junior high dances (a little help for wallflowers please!)

But intimidation should not be tolerated, and KK makes it sound like some students were intimidated. I wonder what the truth is. It would be interesting to hear what Normandale students, especially muslims say, as well as what the administration says after this piece has been published.

I wish people in administrative positions would quit being so PC and so damn scared to just say NO and stand up to demands from religous groups that essentially go against what this country stands for.

I really dislike the whole PC canard, the intention to not offend is nice, but the verbal gymnastics and fear of media scrutiny are so tiresome. Some nice direct speech and some trust and assumption of mutual goodwill would be even better.

That’s why they allow religious groups, even muslim groups to use campus facilities: Because they lost the equal access cases in the past.

They can’t allow FoCA, or CCfC to use facilites, and not muslim, Buddhist, or other faiths. Nor is there any rational justification to allow the biology club, chess club, Greek organizations, the college Democrats or Republicans etc. to use campus facilities and not faith organizations.

Any otherwise qualified group of students should have the same opportunity as any other, faith or not.

The only other thing the school has done, as far as I can tell, was construct a partial wall, dividing the room into sections. That could just as easily be used to allow two smaller groups to use the room at the same time. There’s nothing inherently religious about that (it’s not as if they spent public funds to construct an altar, or install a cross or crucifix, or hired a school chaplin, as was done in the past). If the students want to use it to segregate by gender, that’s their business, as long as the school has no role in enforcing it.

They spent money constructing a wall, for a specific reason and a specific group. Do they pay to heat the room, clean the room ect. Give me a break. Let all of the Jews in and the Christians in when the Muslims are praying or better yet try to get that room at prayer time. Bull shit, it is a subsidy for a specific religious group. The administration is scared to say no, so they spend tax dollars to satisfy a group of people vs another. it is wrong. Just for fun, see what happens if a female sits on the wrong side of the room, betcha secrity will be in that room and that will be at the tax payers expanse.

But intimidation should not be tolerated, and KK makes it sound like some students were intimidated. I wonder what the truth is.

On that, I’ll agree. I’d like to know if a complaint about intimidation was made to the administration. If there was (and it was legitimate), and the administration refused to take any action, there might be a story.

One thing the school might consider, is that groups can’t leave any literature behind when they are not using the room.

mnblrmkr
If we take Kersten’s words for at least partial truth, what say you about the words below? Surely she didn’t make all of this up. Do the words below make this seem like a non-denominational, all inclusive ‘contemplation’ room?
If this is a truly open room for anyone, there should be no arrow, no prayer schedule, no rules on how to ’speak as to not be heard’, but instead a completley blank room.
The school is not making this room so, but they are also not making sure it does not ‘become’ a room designed for devotees of one religion.

A schedule for Islam’s five daily prayers was posted at the entrance, near a sign requesting that shoes be removed. Inside, a barrier divided men’s and women’s prayer space, an arrow informed worshippers of the direction of Mecca, and literature urged women to cover their faces.

Do they pay to heat the room, clean the room ect. Give me a break. Let all of the Jews in and the Christians in when the Muslims are praying or better yet try to get that room at prayer time. Bull shit, it is a subsidy for a specific religious group.

Try and get into any room in a student union when another group has it reserved. Do the biology club, or the Pan-Hellenic council, or the film society, or FCA pay for heating, cleaning, etc.? Only through their student fees, which is the exact same situation for the muslim student groups

The wall has no religious significance. Like I said, a wall is not like hanging a cross or building an altar.

Anderson says he met several times with concerned students. But “the whole thing was just basically swept aside,”
An illustration of the exact problem. Everyone is so worried about being viewed as intolerant that they sweep this stuff under the rug and pretend like it will work itself out.

Anderson said that in the incident involving the young woman, “both sides were probably out of line.”
The woman was out of line for assuming she could use this open ‘contemplation room’?
How?

wait mnblrmkr,
a ‘contemplation room’ should not be subject to reservation, etc.
I want to contemplate now.

baker,
If they have the room reserved regularly for daily prayers, why shouldn’t there be a schedule posted? Every campus I’ve ever been on has had some kind of room schedule posted by every door showing what groups have the room reserved at what times. When a group reserves a room, they’re free to set up the room as they see fit.

If other students or groups are being prevented from using the room at other times, then there is a problem, but I don’t think that has been shown to be the case.

And like I said, the school could and should require that no literature be left behind.

Anderson says he met several times with concerned students. But “the whole thing was just basically swept aside,”
An illustration of the exact problem. Everyone is so worried about being viewed as intolerant that they sweep this stuff under the rug and pretend like it will work itself out.

Assuming that KK is accurately reporting. She has a well demonstrated tendency to omit facts that are inconvenient to her pov.

Anderson said that in the incident involving the young woman, “both sides were probably out of line.”
The woman was out of line for assuming she could use this open ‘contemplation room’?
How?

Most rooms on campus are subject to reservation by student groups. I don’t see why this room should be any different.

are you sure it is reservable?
If it is, it is not an ‘open room’ that anyone can use. It is just another room.
What if I want to enter and pray during the times Muslims are praying? I should have the right to do this, therefore if I don’t, it is not.

That’s why they allow religious groups, even muslim groups to use campus facilities: Because they lost the equal access cases in the past.
But there is a process of room reservation that must be followed. I believe, and I only have KK’s little story to go on yikes, that this meditation room is like a quiet little student lounge area. There was no discussion of whether or not the Muslim students reserved the room during their prayer times. My assumption is that they did not. The wall is troublesome as well, but I think they describe it as a barrier.

What I will say I find most distasteful about this and other groups which attempt to prosletyze on public campuses is the duplicity of their tactics. FoCA and the Muslim students only want more members, especially new ones. And I really do not like the idea, hinted at that these activities are directed and funded not by students but by outside organizations.

why shouldn’t there be a schedule posted?
A schedule seems like it would create conflict. For example, a group finds out the Muslim prayer times and schedules the room for those times.

If other meditation rooms around the country are any indication there won’t be scheduling allowed.

It’s a meditation room, not a raquetball court . . . oh wait . . .

If other meditation rooms around the country are any indication there won’t be scheduling allowed.

It’s a meditation room, not a raquetball court . . . oh wait . . .

I wouldn’t have any problem with being able to reserve a “meditation” room. If a catholic or other group wanted to reserve it for some vigil, fine.

Just because it might be reservable at certain times, doesn’t mean it can’t be “open” at other times.

The wall has no religious significance. Like I said, a wall is not like hanging a cross or building an altar.

It was done in accordance with a religious groups wishes. I will bet the wall was not built under a budgeted expenditure. How many campus rooms have a wall down the middle. Give me a break, it was done to accommodate a religious groups wishes and we paid for it that is bullshit.

They did in the 80’s when the fundies wanted to revive prayer and bible study in public schools and you should have seen the lawsuits fly.

There might be a fundamental (pardon the pun) difference between prayer in the classroom and providing a space on school property for prayer.

The latter activity is voluntary; the former could be seen as forcing a non-believer to participate, however benignly, in an activity against their belief.

I beg your pardon, I never promised you a rose garden.

That seems to fit in here, somewhere.

We don’t have enough information really to make any good judgements here, all we have are opinions and hypotheticals based on hearsay. But I enjoy the discussion.

Isn’t this like KK’s third column on Muslim students at community colleges? Maybe she should start a consultancy for christian crusaders. At root I think KK is a little scared about the demographic shift in the US. I would be too if I bought into the clash of civilizations rhetoric. There is no way that the excesses of sharia law will be coming to a cc or neighborhood near you. People come to the US to avoid that kind of nonsense. It is only a few Saudi funded preaching organizations that try to push it in the west.

I wouldn’t have any problem with being able to reserve a “meditation” room. If a catholic or other group wanted to reserve it for some vigil, fine.

You may not, but how do you think the Muslim students would feel when they went during their prayer time and the room was reserved?

I assert a reservation system would create contention.

I assert a reservation system would create contention.
Absolutely, some butthead hate group would reserve the room at all the appropriate times and then you would have a real headache. There is enough misplaced ill-will towards the Somali community in MN, why hand them more weapons. When I had negative run-ins with them, they struck me as weird guys who did not know how to interact with American women. So not too different from prepschool boys really.

Am I the only one who thinks that–>If this room is reservable, it is not an open room as the school asserts.
A prayer room, or ‘contemplation room’ for the heathens among us, needs to be always available to EVERYONE at anytime. that is the whole point.
The catholics can use it, but this means that the muslims need to have the right to use it at the same time if they wish. Therefore scheduling should not be an option. I should be able to come in and pray to Joel Osteen during the height of Ramadan if I want.

What I hate,and am most worried about, are those in the Christian Religious Right using the government to enact laws to get the public to live by their religious values.

I am witcha when you’re right, er, I mean correct, Alie.

KK’s column smacks of rabble-rousing as I think the “meditation room” has been at Normandale for quite awhile now and it was just recently moved because of remodeling. Doesn’t seem like it’s been a big issue on campus and if the students don’t see an issue, why should we make it one?

And then having said all of that, I worry that we’ll blur the lines of church/state separation and become so accomodating that we’ll forget who it is were really accomodating.

It’s not discriminatory to not provide a prayer room. It doesn’t fall under the protected class as the issue isn’t about inequality in providing education or employment. If Normandale wants to provide a “meeting” room, regardless of it’s use, it should follow the same guidelines as any other meeting room.

There’s a reason why we have private religious colleges in this country. Go Wildcats!

There is no way that the excesses of sharia law will be coming to a cc or neighborhood near you. People come to the US to avoid that kind of nonsense. It is only a few Saudi funded preaching organizations that try to push it in the west.

While I agree with this, as I stated in an earlier comment, it seems as if Christian Fundies are doing all they can to make this a theocracy, the only difference is the book they’re using.

Am I the only one who thinks that–>If this room is reservable, it is not an open room as the school asserts.

There is nothing in KK’s column that indicates that they claim the room is open to anyone at *anytime*. Merely that it available for use by anyone.

Just like almost any other available meeting room, there may be times when it is being used by other groups and not available to you.

There is nothing in KK’s column that indicates that they claim the room is open to anyone at *anytime*.
Nor is there anything that says it isn’t and requires reservations.
It would make more sense that it does not.

Whatever, this room should not be paid for by taxpayers.

Whatever, this room should not be paid for by taxpayers.

Again, what exactly did the taxpayers pay for that is Islamic? A 4 foot wall?

Wooooo, photo by me

I think it would be ironic if St. Cloud State had one of these vomit sanctuaries.

A prayer room.

Christian Fundies are doing all they can to make this a theocracy”

So, in college (a public school) we had a TV room in the student center. It was the only large screen TV on campus and it was open for everyone.

On Wednesday nights it was West Wing night. The group that watched would kick people out who were in there, claiming it was reserved. It wasn’t. They were loud and took over the whole room.

OH MY GOD! The taxpayers were funding West Wing fanaticism. With tax dollars and student fees. I can’t believe it.

Oh, and we also let the largest room on campus be used once a week for a huge Christian gathering(IVCF), and they didn’t have to pay. “Everyone” was invited, but I’m sure some Muslims praying in the back of the room wouldn’t have lasted long, probably because Muslims wouldn’t have felt welcome.

Again, paid for by tax dollars and student fees.

Can someone tell me the difference?

(Aside from the religious tracts left behind, that probably shouldn’t be allowed. But of course, it is freedom of speech, and we allow Christians to leave them around campus, and the vegans too.)

and the vegans too.)

Isn’t health and diet, and The Earth a religion in it’s own right?

Examples:
Outlawing abortion, making it legal, then systematically eroding the rights of women to make their own healthcare decisions due to religious arguments of whether life begins at conception.

Efforts to teach creationism in public schools.

Denying gays the right to marry based on biblical text.

I’m not saying America is following the path of The Taliban, and I’m certainly not saying Christianity is evil, but it seems to me that the only people that have the most problems with Islam are the people that know the least about it and the people that practice it. The Muslims I know don’t want to convert me, you, or the rest of America, but I can’t say that about most of the diehard Christians I know.

One more example:

Allowing pharmacists to refuse BIRTH CONTROL to women based on shitty science (i.e. religious dogma) that it’s an abortificant or just because they simply don’t believe in birth control…not to mention the shit storm over denying access to the morning after pill over persistent lies that it is also an abortificant.

Aliecat, as a Christian, I want to say one thing: Real Christians want separation of church and state. Otherwise, I agree with you completely. Muslims are fighting for some basic religious rights while the Right-wing Christians are trying to create a theocracy.

And because of this, be afraid of Mike Huckabee, very afraid.

Huckabee seems to be the Morman Bill Clinton…

A prayer room.

But, there is really nothing that the school has paid for to specifically make that a prayer room. They’re simply allowing a group of students to use a room. Something that any other group of students is allowed to do.

I think you are thinking Mitt Romney, not Huckabee. Huckabee just came out with a commercial in Iowa talking about the birth of Jesus Christ- not exactly appealing to non-Christians. He also stands by his statements regarding taking persons with HIV/AIDS out of the general public and putting them in quaranteen.

Oh, I meant the smooth talk and cool demeanor…not the politics…

I’m not saying America is following the path of The Taliban, and I’m certainly not saying Christianity is evil,

What are you saying when you use the term “theocracy?”

It’s a loaded term, like communist, or fascist or nazi.

Rat, there is a significant segment of the religious right in this country who are quite open about the fact that they believe America’s laws should be based on Christian interpretation of scripture. Theocracy is only a loaded phrase when it is inaccurate.

Will you bastards stop quoting everyone else and say something?

Christ!

And you don’t realize, Max how much that rhetoric advances the movement of the “the fundies.”

So, just keep talking, Max and Alie.

They need you more than they need the faithful.

And you don’t realize, Max how much that rhetoric advances the movement of the “the fundies.”

Hm. No I don’t. How does it do that?

They take the more angular letters from Max’s rhetoric, increase the point size to a million picas, before fashioning them into a crude rope ladder which they use to sneak in through the window of the Oval Office. Voila.

By alienating a large portion of the population that are religious and driving them into the conservative movement. A knee jerk reaction against religion that’s done far too often.

The Rat: “They need you more than they need the faithful.”

Well, I expect both sides of the debate would disagree with you there. Not that that necessarily makes you wrong (although I don’t agree).

But there is definitely some truth in that the modern fundamentalist finds validation in a sense of being persecuted. So even though a spiny anteater probably holds about the same chance as an atheist of ever being elected to the highest office in the land and although almost every major candidate from one of the two parties has made obeisance to the fundamentalist bloc in some form or another, the sense of being a put-upon minority is never far from them.

I think the Religious Right has done more to alienate me (who used to be moderately religious) and push me farther to the left, then I’ve alienated anyone to the other end of the spectrum. But that’s just my opinion.

Nonsense, Rat. I’d love you to point to an example of a moderate Christian getting so upset by a comment on a public forum that they have joined an extremist group.

And I’ve noticed you don’t share the same concerns that rhetoric of Muslims might somehow be creating Muslim extremists.