Secrets of the City

WCCO talked with Katherine Olson’s family, as did KARE.

Totally creepy.

But I wonder, before the internets, was he the type of guy to kill 10 people before he was caught? Or was he too dumb all around?

Oh my god this is so horrible. I knew this woman. She was incredibly bright, talented, and kind. I can’t believe this happened.

Shit.

Shit.

Jen just posted regarding potentially creepy Craigslist stalkers the other day.

How tragic this happened.

This really freaked me and my friends out thinking about all of the times we’ve placed or answered ads on Craigslist or did the online dating gig. We talk about back-ups and signals and safety precautions and take crap from our guy friends who call us “paranoid.” After reading about this, I’m grateful that we are paranoid.

This story kinda of reminds me a horror movie that was out a few years back.

I’ve picked up freelance work on craigslist and was also shocked to hear about this murder. My heart really goes out to her family — it sounds like she was an exceptionally bright and talented young woman.
But that being said, I’ve always been extra-careful in responding to any job ad, anywhere — meeting in public places or an office, letting people know when I’m leaving and when I’m coming back, etc.

wow.

My wife went to Olaf and knew her as well, so sad…

I also have a friend out in Seattle who is a nanny and finds almost all of her jobs from Craigslist just this same way

I did post an ad recently for some furniture I’m selling, and got some creepy responses. When I got a legitimate response from a local man, I was a little nervous. I showed his email to three different people before responding to it. Then when he asked to come over and see the furniture in person, I tried to arrange it so he would meet Rich instead of me. Unfortunately, that wouldn’t work. When I did meet him, I told a LOT of people about it, and even went so far as to send Rich copies of the guy’s emails to me AND I asked a friend to call me 10 minutes after our scheduled meeting time. I gave her my phone number and address and told her if I did not answer the phone to call 911 immediately. As it turns out, everything was fine, I sold my furniture, and he’s coming to pick it up today.

I’m so sorry this girl wasn’t as lucky. I’m sickened by this.

My condolences to those of you that knew her. How awful.

Ladies – really anyone, but ladies especially – PLEASE be careful about this stuff. Sometimes, when I talk to girl friends of mine I’m SHOCKED at how apathetic and careless they are about their personal safety. I know for a fact that my 3 best gal pals don’t carry Mace, don’t know any kind of self-defense techniques, and don’t carry emergency info on them.

I worry endlessly for them. They give me shit when I insist they let at least one person know about their dates ahead of time, or stuff like going running alone……but I’m convinced there’s no such thing as overkill. I make it abundantly clear that I’m the one it’s OK to call if they’re just walking to their car, feeling scared at home, or need serious help at 3:30AM. I encourage all of you wonderful women to do the same for each other. It’s chilling to think about, but even if checking in with someone doesn’t save you, the clues it provides might help catch your attacker and prevent violence against anyone else.

WE ALL NEED TO CHECK IN WITH EACH OTHER.

It makes me sick to think that women are STILL being targeted and victimized like this. I hate calling my husband when I’m walking to my car and saying “hi, it’s me, please talk to me, I’m walking to the car” and then having to check in the back seat before I get in. It SUCKS to feel that my size and gender make me vulnerable. But as long as this is the case we need to do everything we can to take care of the women in our lives.

I suppose the same could have happened 20 years ago with classified ads in the newspaper, it just seems that we do so much business with strangers now, in person. We sell furniture, we look for jobs, we find people to fix our plumbing. I’m not sure there’s any fix other than what Jen suggests above. And even taking all those precautions simply makes it easier to catch the bad guy: it doesn’t prevent anything.

It’s sad to say, but if someone really wants to harm you, sometimes there’s little you can do to really prevent it 100%. The best we can all do is to stay aware and do our best to not put ourselves in dangerous situations. I feel absolutely awful for this poor woman and her family. I wish stories like this and others similar were not a part of our society. My heart goes out to them.

I just got off the phone with a reporter at Pi Press. They are running a story about local Craigslist usage tomorrow.

A few months ago, I filed a report with Oregon State Police about someone on CL advertising for a nanny. They wanted me to meet them at an address that was suspicious. It was an address near wearhouses, not a residence(I mapquested it). They claimed to work for the Oregon State Police, so naturally the OSP were glad to investigate. I posted a warning about this person on CL, and after getting flagged a couple of times, I put the case number in the ad, and quite a few nannies who’d responded to this creep also contacted the OSP.

PLEASE do not offer personal info, like your address, to anyone on CL. If you meet someone for an interview, do it in a PUBLIC PLACE. Now I know you have to go to someone’s home for a nanny interview sometimes, but if you are a woman, and you are dealing with a man, this is necessary! If the person you are corresponding with refuses to talk on the phone, STAY AWAY FROM THEM. This is just sick, sick, sick!

“If the person you are corresponding with refuses to talk on the phone, STAY AWAY FROM THEM.”

This is a bit unfair. Not all of us vcan use the phone.

Fair or not, mnblrmkr, I would be wary of someone, whom I’ve never met, who refuses to talk over the phone for no acceptable reason.

Mnblrmkr: I understand what you’re saying, but unfortunately the responsiblity is yours to make sure the other party understands your situation and then you shouldn’t be at all hesitant to meet her in a very public place.

Bx: You are so right that we need to be more aware and better prepared and less apathetic. And it’s sad that it takes something like this to make us all realize what we take for granted.

And then to Alie’s point, we can take all of the precautions possible and it still may not help. But, if we are consistent with protecting ourselves and our friends, it lessens the chances because it only takes one time to let our guard down.

I certainly felt more comfortable meeting the guy who bought my furniture after talking to both him and his wife on the phone. However, it’s important to remember that prepaid phones are widely available, and even more, psychos are often great actors. I believe it was Ted Bundy who charmed his way into a sorority house, and while that was a long time ago, it still serves as a good example of how disarming evil is.

Out of curisosity, what would your reaction have been if he had insisted on calling you through the realy service?

Well, I guess there would be a third party on the phone with us. And I certainly would never discriminate against someone or not consider their interest in my wares due to that. Either way, I’d try to ensure my boyfriend or a friend could be with me in the case of a home visit. Otherwise, from now on, all of my Craigslist dealings will be in a public place.

This is horrible, for sure. But isn’t it true that, for almost any project–home or otherwise–we hire strangers? Aren’t most plumbers, painters, fix-it folks you hire from the phone book or a flier? How is this any different? If someone were killed by a plumber they found in the phonebook, would we be crying about the safety of phonebooks? Isn’t it really an issue of safety in general?

Craigslist really is like a new yellow pages and classifieds section. Sure, there are creeps on there. But the fact of the matter is that, well, there are creeps everywhere. I don’t think one tragic incident means it’s necessary for a whole campaign of “we need to be more aware of Craigslist stalkers.”

It just feels like such a cheap media ploy. Like being afraid of razors in candy. Or MySpace. It’s an awful story. There is no denying that. And it’s horrible that the family has to go through this. But it feels like everyone has quickly resorted to being panicked moms circa the Snicker-razor scare.

I agree with MollyP. The CraigsList element of this story is irrelevant. The same thing could happen, and has happened, through ads other than CraigsList ones. I think the internet angle of this story is sensationalism.

I think there’s much greater anonymity, and immediacy possible with CL compared to the yellow pages, print classifieds, and fliers.

MollyP, I totally agree with what you are saying. I take precautions for my safety all the time, including not hiring plumbers or other workers without a referral or references, and certainly not allowing them into my home when I’m alone. Women need to be extra careful when it comes to maintaining personal safety; this is not a new issue, but the methods attackers are using are, and I don’t think it’s a bad thing that the media make us aware of it.

“Well, I guess there would be a third party on the phone with us.”

Yes, but no. A relay call isn’t like a conference call with a 3rd participant that you can get feedback from. The CA has only two roles to play (with the exception that at the begining of the call, they can ask if you are familiar with a relay call, and if not, explain how it works to you): to type everything you say (and any background noises on your end), so I can read it, and to read back to you what I type. A major peeve of mine is when the person on the other end insists on addressing the CA, and not me.

I would also add, that Federal law prohibits the realy service from keeping any records of the calls they handle.

mnblrmkr, I have been on a relay call before, but I was unaware of the Federal law. I suppose in that case, it wouldn’t be much different than talking to someone on the phone anyway. But even knowing this, I would still not disicriminate when interacting with someone on Craigslist due to use of the relay system. However, I would take all other precautions I’ve mentioned before when meeting someone.

Molly: I get what you’re saying, but mnblrmkr’s point of greater anonymity probably plays a greater part in making it scarier. With the Yellow pages and classifieds you pay and give your personal information in order to place an ad. Plus, there’s somewhat of a “monitoring” that goes on so it’s not as loose as Craigslist.

And you are exactly right that there’s risk with anything involving a stranger, but don’t confuse a news story with media hype. This was worthy of writing about and the Craigslist info. was relevant to the story.

I largely agree with Molly (see my point above about classified ads)… but I think there is a difference with CL. Look at all the things we do with Craigslist: we can find a nanny, plumber, sell our furniture, give away free stuff, buy a computer, on and on and on. There’s a huge increase in the volume of our minor interactions with strangers, and that’s because of the internet. I think there is value in drawing attention to that: especially because so many of us in our 20s and 30s don’t ever think about the potential danger in each of those minor transactions.

“I suppose in that case, it wouldn’t be much different than talking to someone on the phone anyway.”

Even less so. If you were to receive a regular call, they could look at the records for your number, and trace back the numbers that called you. But if it’s a relay call, that’s going to be the number that shows up on the records, and since the relay service can’t keep any records, well, that might be as close to an anonymous call as you can get.

I thought the same thing Molly when I first saw this story reported. It seems like the Strib went out of its way to inject the CRAIG’S LIST connection…seems like a trend lately with other stories about CRAIG’S LIST PROSTITUTION STINGS and whatnot.

Call me a cynic but I don’t think it’s any secret that the Strib is hurting for Ad revenues and I would venture to guess that they are losing a ton of money to Craig’s List where people looking to sell a boat or rent an apartment or (insert possible illegal activity here) can post it for free and get much better results that they might have gotten paying Big Bucks for print ads.

I know that when I advertise my Open Houses on CL I always get people thru that said they saw my Ads there and very seldom do they mention the Strib. Edina Realty stopped buying a huge ad every Sunday because they figured this out (and the Buyouts started happening soon after…coincidence?).

This is not to beat up on the Strib, I am a subscriber…for the moment anyway…and I don’t want to downplay this obvious horrendous tragedy, I just think they could have downplayed the CL angle a bit more.

I have applied for some jobs on CL but send a resume without my address and the schools I attended. I also use a free phone number I got from AOl.

Many people posting jobs on CL don’t say what company they are with or provide a web site. Even when I ask for a web site they can be reluctant to provide more info. They don’t get my resume. When it comes to identiy theft a resume is a great place to get lost of information.

The CL connection is the story, as far as I’m concerned. It’s nothing like buying a newspaper ad, which requires you to talk to someone, pay money,etc. CL posts are entirely anonymous. If you’re a truly sick f*ck you can do all the hacking stuff to cover your online tracks.

The truth is that CL is used as a vehicle for illegal activity, whether it’s prostitution (including human trafficking), fraud, drug trafficking and myriad violent crimes. That’s a story.

It’s completely ridic to say that the only way to prevent this stuff from happeneing is to always have some boyfriend or friend go with you. You can’t have someone with you for all of your life. To think that’s going to help is completly naive and polyanna. The only way this is going to stop happening is for assholes to stop killing.

Blaming the victim isn’t going to help that fact that she’s gone.

Tragic.

Realtor: Without Craigslist, this victim likely never interacts with the killer. Without CL, this victim doesn’t die.

Not to say that this person wouldn’t have killed someone else… or found another way to lure someone to kill that person. But in this specific case, without CL, this woman is still alive today.

Again: that doesn’t mean CL is evil; that doesn’t mean that CL caused the crime (only the killer is responsible). But let’s be real about the role of Craigslist in this specific instance.

I agree that StarTribune overplayed the whole CL angle of the story, but I really doubt that it has anything to do with lost advertising revenue. I worked in advertising at StarTribune for a lot of years and there was a very clear line between us and the news department.

The writers and editors I know would never allow the ad department to influence a story. Sometimes the ad sales reps wish they had a say in selection of news stories, but they just don’t.

StarTribune is working the CL angle because they think it makes the story more interesting. More interesting stories = more people reading the paper = more value to advertisers.

Christine, as an assault survivor and a past rape crisis counselor, I am well aware that I can’t have someone with me all the time. I am also well aware of the dangers of our society and the fact that, when it comes down to it, humans are animals with base instincts. Killing is one of those instincts. I am NOT blaming the victim! I don’t think what she did is wrong; the killer/advertiser is clearly the party in the wrong here.

I grieve for her loss and I send my condolences to her family. I’m thankful that it didn’t happen to me, because it could have last week, despite all of the precautions I took.

As Jason said, they have the CL angle, because that is the connection between the victim and the suspect.

Does anyone have any solid reason to doubt it would be any different if she had responded to a job ad in the print classifieds?

I would say it does take a little more work to place a print classified, and who knows if that would have slowed down the killer.

Place a Print Ad with the Strib:

There are 3 easy ways to place your ad in print:

* E-mail your ad to EmploymentCallCenter@startribune.com
* Fax your ad to 612-673-xxxx
* Call our classifieds department at 1-800-927-xxxx or 612-673-xxxx

Also, note that it took the authorities virtually no time at all to find out who placed the CL ad that led to the crime. It might be possible to place an anonymous ad, but that doesn’t seem to be the case here.

I suppose the same could have happened 20 years ago with classified ads in the newspaper,
Dersuha, haven’t you ever heard of ‘Harv the hammer’, AKA ‘the want ad killer’? Harvey Carignan–> I actually saw this guy when I toured Stillwater prison 1.5 years ago. He’s still doing time for killing girls around the twin cities that he found through the classified ads.

I agree with Molly P.

A guy committed a murder using a popular website as a way to lure in his victim. Thousands of twin cities residents use the site everyday. The website has a long track record of being utilized by criminals to foster their illegal activities. The killer wasn’t meeting up with the victim for nasty s*x either. She was responding to a help wanted. Not that it makes a difference. But the gross misrepresentation should serve as cause for alarm. Frankly, I’m surprised this isn’t one of those cases where so many news outlets report on the CL aspect that people start reminding everyone that a woman was murdered.

I just read this story today and it made my cold dead heart hurt.

):

By the same logic of the people who don’t think the CL connection is that big of a deal: shootings that happen in Block E shouldn’t really focus on Block E. Because that same shooting could have happened anywhere.

And no, I hadn’t heard of Harv, baker. Thanks for bringing him to my attention. I would imagine news coverage of that focused on want ads, since they called him “the want ad killer.”

And no, I hadn’t heard of Harv, baker. Thanks for bringing him to my attention. I would imagine news coverage of that focused on want ads, since they called him “the want ad killer.”

It’s sort of hard to find details on him. Mostly movie titles dealing with him, but if you google deep enough you’ll find something on him. He lived on the west coast somewhere where he was charged with a crime but aquittied, and then moved here to continue his ways. If you dig enough you will find his story and how he lured women, wtc. It is very close to what we are talking about here.

Harv is very relevant Jason, and local as well.
Good luck.

and my condolences to the victim.

maybe you can’t blame block e for crime problems around block e, but there can still be reasons why you get clusters of crimes. in this case it’s most likely because of certain bus routes that pass close by and come from/go to economically depressed neighborhoods. when you concentrate poverty bad things always happen, and what better way to concentrate things than a bunch of people waiting for the bus?

Mostly off topic, sorry:

Is there anyway to find out what specific police action happened at a given place, say, last night?

Our street was completly closed down last night with police from at least two different jurisdictions for about an hour. There were MetroTransit Police at our corner, Minneapolis Police at the ally, so no one could get in, and then a lot of police down at the end of the block. Because the street was closed off, I didn’t venture down there. I really want to know what happened. Any suggestions?

KC: Call your precinct and ask for the community outreach or crime prevention officer. They’ll tell you.

I think the family needs to be given time / room to grieve. However, IMO it’s imperative that the media reveal all of the details of this case in order to help educate the public as to precisely how this happened so that it can be avoided in the future.

“Also, note that it took the authorities virtually no time at all to find out who placed the CL ad that led to the crime. It might be possible to place an anonymous ad, but that doesn’t seem to be the case here.”

It’s not clear though, how they tracked the suspect down. Whether it was through th CL ad, or whether it was through info that the victim left behind. She had told friends she was going to interview, and likely may have left behind info that they were able to connect to him.

The incident is public information–if it turned into a case, the details may not be public if it is an active investigation. You can call you precinct and ask to talk to either your crime prevention officer or someone in the records dept. I would try Crime prevention first, they should be able to tell you.

Your CPO will share the info with you if he can. CPOs are great about that.

G rote, they do not share details of an active investigation. They should be released shortly.

I can’t help it, but this statement troubles me:
when it comes down to it, humans are animals with base instincts. Killing is one of those instincts.

This makes it sound as if the actions this guy took were instinctual, which is simply not true. When threatened, we as aminals may resort to instinctual reaction, but this guy was not acting instinctually (and not likely threatened), he acted violently and with intent.
I don’t even have to know the facts of the case to make this judgement.

Honestly, when was the last time you felt the urge to kill someone? We defend ourselves and may possibly kill during this course, but our instinct to kill is not really that, but instead an instict to fight or flee.

Baker, I see what you mean, and realize how easily my comment could be misunderstood (I was in a hurry to write it and didn’t edit carefully). What I really meant by it is that unfortunately, killing isn’t going to stop. People do it. Not me, not my friends and family, but it happens and the reality is that it will continue to happen. I don’t think it’s naive or polyanna to try to take measures to protect oneself as much as possible; I think it’s naive to think people will stop killing each other.

Thanks for clarificaton, Jen.

People who think the media is blowing this out of proportion or wonder why CL is mentioned don’t seem to understand the significance of this event.

1) This is the first murder linked to CL
2) Like Jason said, the victim would still be alive if she hadn’t used CL to communicate with the victim
3) Millions of people use CL and don’t think anything of it
4) The suspect actively used CL to find a victim

All of that makes it a news story, not media hype. Besides, had someone else answered an ad in the newspaper and was murdered, that would be in the news as well. And yes, the media would mention that the victim was answering an ad.

Let’s face it — answering an ad (no matter what form) and then being murdered is an unusual way to die. The media reports on unusual murders and tries to help prevent more of them by making information available.

Had the media not reported that she was answering an ad, most people would simply think she ended up in the wrong place at the wrong time, making this a very different story.

Fact was, she was using CL — something many of us use — to meet someone, thinking she would be safe.

Stories like these remind people that hey, you’ve gotta be careful online and when responding to ads.

Sorry, I meant:

Like Jason said, the victim would still be alive if she hadn’t used CL to communicate with the SUSPECT

The moral of the story is that the internet is not real community – even though people like Craig Newmark would like you to think it is.  The internet is a technological mirage that only appears to provide the necessary communication for community.  A bunch of text is a poor substitute for voice and body language.  In a real community, people cannot commit anonymous crimes.

Susan MacTavish Best – a spokeswoman for Craigslist – insists that her company offers an “international network of online communities”.

What a sick joke.

In a real community, people cannot commit anonymous crimes.

Thanks for the input Zodiac Killer.