Secrets of the City

The Rat didn’t need to see that Klondike Kate thing this morning.

One of my friends has always wanted to try out for Klondike Kate. She is always rejected for being too petite. (My solution of renting a fat suit is always rejected by her.)
Yikes. Why don’t we call it the heart attacks and diabetes waiting to happen calendar?

Then look at the cartoon in this week’s Onion, Rat. That will make your day brighter!

I just about spit out my pricey Dunn Bros French Roast when I saw it this a.m….

I’m sure the 3M employees let go will understand their important contribution to a 1% increase in growth, and a 2.5% reduction of the tax rate. It’s good for the stock, and with all the options they’re sure to get in severance, along with fantastic new senior-level jobs at other companies… or at least that’s the case for the executives who dreamt up such petty profit optimizations.

I know the concept is difficult for some to grasp, but the purpose of a corporation is to make money, not to provide jobs. Jobs only exist in the pursuit of that objective. They are not the objective.

Ugh. Klondike Kate Calendar? DO NOT WANT. It’s like getting stuck with just the before shots from Jenny Craig’s before-and-after photo album. Wayne, I’m sure, has already bought several dozen copies. Ahh, it’s never to early to make fun of Wayne.

I like how Benjamin Franklin is ripping up the Constitution.

Nice.

“I know the concept is difficult for some to grasp, but the purpose of a corporation is to make money, not to provide jobs. Jobs only exist in the pursuit of that objective. They are not the objective.”

He didn’t say otherwise. All he did was express compassion for those losing their jobs for such a small growth objective. I know it’s a hard concept for some to grasp, but there is sucha thing called compassion.

I love those Onion cartoons. They’ve become my favorite regular feature in the Onion over the past few months.

Just to show I have varied tastes in reading material, here’s yet another article in a national publication (the National Review) suggesting our own T-Paw for VP.

I’m sure the 3M employees let go will understand their important contribution to a 1% increase in growth, and a 2.5% reduction of the tax rate.

But this is the American way of doing business: look at the short-term; not the long-term. Shareholder value, of course! Capitalism at its best. Yay!

This is also why the environment is going to hell. How long can the planet support growth, growth, growth all the time? Until the there’s concrete the world over? Corporations existing just to make money is true, but also extremely narrow. My father was a businessman and he knew that if you treat your employees like disposable robots you don’t get very far.

I think this is Maz’s vision of the inner workings of the American labor market.

I, too, question the emphasis on growth. I don’t know if it’s such a bad thing for a company to stay the same size, just relying on consistency and quality in whatever they do well. I’m sure it has to do with the stock market, which does not necessarily pressure companies to do what is best for their own long-term success.

I agree on the stock market issue in the macro sense…too much artificial growth on paper and fighting for dividends instead of looking @ the long term health of the company / economy destabilizes the economy. But in the micro sense, in terms of expanding an individual business, you either Grow or Die. Zero growth equals negative real growth. If you stay the same size, everything around you gets relatively larger, you lose market share and you eventually wither on the vine and die.

I like how Benjamin Franklin is ripping up the Constitution.

I think that’s supposed to be Adams.

Let’s give everybody free health care.

Ben is the one on the far left.

Are you calling Ben Franklin a leftist?

“Are you calling Ben Franklin a leftist?”

Well, he did spend a lot of time in France. Just sayin’.

let’s also legalize gay marriage. it might help me out in the future.

It’s the fight for growth that drives the constant quest for innovation, for new products, new markets, higher market share through making customers happier than they are when they use a competitor . . .

In short, it’s that fight that keeps the economy from stagnating, that keeps unemployment so low, and that brings us new technology and new, more-efficient processes. It may cost jobs in the short-term, but it leads to more jobs overall, so the laid-off 3M employees have excellent prospects. It also keeps labor allocation efficient: 3M gets its work done more profitably somewhere else, leaving those employees available to do jobs that are most efficiently done here.

And if disparate taxation means fewer jobs can be done here efficiently, well, that’s economic reality. I was told on this board that no businesses ever leave because of the tax climate, so they must be leaving because they dislike Pawlenty, or to protest low education spending, or because of a lack of free urban transit, right?

lolz@ his anitroll

(goes back to eating this donut)

nom nom nom

“I, too, question the emphasis on growth. I don’t know if it’s such a bad thing for a company to stay the same size, just relying on consistency and quality in whatever they do well. I’m sure it has to do with the stock market, which does not necessarily pressure companies to do what is best for their own long-term success.”

Well, you DO need some level of growth. That’s how you get your pay raise without changing your job every year. But Christine is right. there are different ways to attain that growth. Some better than others. One of the better ways is to treat your employees fairly, and as you said above, concentrate on quality and consistency.

One of the poorer ways is to try and artificially goose your quarterly results to please the short term market.

If you want to get technical, I don’t think Lincoln was a founding father either considering he was president during the Civil War.

But whatevs.

Why are all so mean to each other?? Play nice!

John Wayne could kick Maz’s ass – and that’s a compliment.

kevinisnotfeelinghimselftoday

Kevin, are there any days you don’t “feel yourself?”

I don’t think Lincoln was a founding father either considering he was president during the Civil War

Nice catch. I’ll take American History for 100, Christine!

Why are all so mean to each other?? Play nice!

(hangs head, digs toe into ground)

Okaaaayyy…Hey kev, you wanna play with my new football?

Aren’t we all Sally funny cakes today. Lately, bob, there have been a lot of days.

“Why are all so mean to each other??”

I blame it on the fact that I just lost my last wingman to engagement. Not that he was any good at the job.

And I think Kevin’s jealous that wayne is dating his ladies. (see the end of yesterday’s cops/CL/hookers thread).

No. Didn’t you learn anything from my violent rebuff of Tom yesterday? And I can’t be the only one surprised that the guy who led the charge to snuff out freedom thought the 16th president was a founding father.

“It may cost jobs in the short-term, but it leads to more jobs overall, so the laid-off 3M employees have excellent prospects. “

Not so much. most people that are laid off end up taking jobs that pay less, with fewer benefits.

the anonitroll definitely wasn’t me.

but I definitely WAS amused.

It’s amazing that so many jump to blame the company instead of their government. Lower taxes can lead to more taxes taken in by governments since the economy grows faster and people and businesses move in instead of out.

yeah, trickle-down motherfucker. that definitely works.

at least it trickles down if you own a company that sells luxury yachts or third summer homes on the beach.

Maybe you mean supply-side economics instead of “trickle-down motherfucker”. Tax cuts resulted in economic and tax recipt growth for Kennedy, Clinton, and Bush. It works every time. It’s not widely known for some reason but we are in the midst of the longest stretch of job growth on record. The job growth started when taxes were cut.

yeah, except most of the jobs being created are low-paying service-sector jobs, and many of them are part time without benefits.

and the jobs being lost are mostly high-paying, with benefits kind of jobs.

but yeah, great! lots of new jobs! those out of work engineers will make great fryer operators at mcdonalds!

or I’m sure those guys that worked in a plant manufacturing shit will love their new job manufacturing mcgriddles.

Kennedy’s not a good comparison. He was reducing taxes that were in the 70% marginal rate range. Of course you’re going to see a stimulating effect reducing from that level.

Clinton also RAISED taxes, that resulted in increased economic growth.

Actually, real after-tax per capita income has increased over 12.5 percent since the last round of tax cuts.

How about those real world wages?
Still stagnant?

In the Real World of Work and Wages, Trickle-Down Theories Dont Hold Up

and how is that 12.5% distributed?

I’m willing to bet it’s weighted extremely heavily towards the top, while the middle continues to slip downward or stay flat.

and bart, do you mean “real” as in adjusted for inflation?

Naturally, people who make more money will benefit more from tax cuts. It’s pretty hard to cut taxes for people who pay very little taxes. Unless, of course, you give them earned income tax credits or $1,000/year 401k matching credits, which really isn’t a tax cut at all because they often times don’t…ah…ahhhh…ahhhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

(head explodes)

“yeah, except most of the jobs being created are low-paying service-sector jobs, and many of them are part time without benefits, and the jobs being lost are mostly high-paying, with benefits kind of jobs.“

Have any figures backing this? Seems to me this theme is trotted out whenever the actual wage-growth, unemployment, or money-flow stats show good things. If labor statistics don’t bear out this overall theme, do we then get “but the jobs are all soul-crushing corporate positions and the number of artisan-based jobs where we get to “work with people” is way down”?

Just in time, too.

Frankly wayno, I don’t know how it’s distributed. Most of it probably is earned by those who have figured out how to earn it – duh. But I do know that if the latest tax cuts are allowed to expire, a family of 4 making $60k will lose an average of $1.8k. And if MN increases the gas tax, that same family will lose more.

And mnblmkr, Clinton did increase taxes early in his 8 years and the economy grew at about a 2% pace. After he cut the capital gains tax later on is when the economy grew at about 4% pace. Since the Bush tax cuts, the economy has grown at over 4%.

But…but…where’s my 12.5%?

I’VE BEEN ROBBED!

yeah my raises haven’t even kept up with inflation

thanks a lot

kevin: Budget deficit falls to lowest level in 5 years

and bush has been president how long?
and how much extra money for the war isn’t included in that calculation?

wtf ever, what a useless thing to tout.

hey, maybe that family of four should figure out how to earn more, duh!

or maybe they should figure out how to not drive so much if their driving costs start to actually come very insignificantly closer to the actual cost of their driving.

duh!

On an unrelated note, when did the strib start requiring registration??

what the fuck is the big great goddamned deal about the economy growing if only the top 5-10% of the population see any of that benefit at the expense of the rest of the population?

fuck you guys are your ‘economy first’ bullshit. I’d rather have 2% growth that the middle and lower class actually sees than 4% growth that only the upper crust gets a taste of.

BTW bobby, here’s your goddamned link If the BLS isn’t good enough for you, then you’re an idiot.

“fuck you guys are your ‘economy first’ bullshit. I’d rather have 2% growth that the middle and lower class actually sees than 4% growth that only the upper crust gets a taste of.“

I get the feeling your true sentiment is more towards “I don’t care if we all starve, as long as those rich fuckers starve first!”

and another

and how about:

Wayno you are going to trust the Department of Labor stats?

Isn’t there a US Today pie chart?

“BTW bobby, here’s your goddamned link If the BLS isn’t good enough for you, then you’re an idiot.“

I must be the idiot then, wayne. Sorry. Must suck having to explain the basics over and over again to ‘tards like me, right? That’s why you cite me to things that are headed with “Originally published December 3, 1999″, right?

Dolt that I am, without your guidance I might have stoopidly gone to the way-older-and-out-of-date 2005 stats, only to become dazed by the data here, confusingly titled “Occupations with the largest job growth, 2004-14″, or here, and been misled by the data representing “Fastest growing occupations, 2004-14″, or even here, and relied, like the moron I am, on data purporting to show “Industries with the largest job growth.”

Boy, am I glad I stopped by. Education never stops.

(If you find that more than 25% of your intellectual argument consists of “you’re a fucking idiot”, you might want to rethink things.)

“I don’t care if we all starve, as long as those rich fuckers starve first!”

I haven’t seen many homeless people wearing Armani lately.

Armani Exchange…maybe.

yes, bobby, that’s it exactly. I just hate rich people and want them to suffer.

it’s not like I actually want everyone to get a fair shake instead of everyone getting shaken down by the rich elite so they can get their third houseboat.

shut up and quit trying to put words in my mouth.

fuck me that was canada.
goddamned google image search, but it’s worse for america I think. hold on.

Economic Flame War!

send in the cedar waxwings, squirrels and LOLkittens, please!

Is is Open Tread time yet?

Hey, how ’bout them Minnesota Wild?

Ranty – I registered in 2003. I clearly remember it.

I love rich people. If not for them, I would have worser seats at sporting events. OMG, I can’t believe spell check didn’t catch worser.

Here’s an LOLcat for you bob:

Iz in ur partment, stelin ur fredums.

And this one: ohai, is just in ur backseat, grabin ur libertees. gots it. kthxbai…um, witch ways to austria again?

lolz time for lunch nom nom nom

I get the feeling “lower-tax countries” is 3M code for “Low Pollution Standards”. That’s how the Teflon kings roll.

not service-industry, but here’s some stagnant wages for you:

there’s a companion graph for canada where the real wage actually tracks with the productivity increases. Guess what, in canada the workers get paid for working harder! In america they get paid less! what a country!

It’s amazing that so many jump to blame the company instead of their government. Lower taxes can lead to more taxes taken in by governments

Uh, not really. Taxes, whether high or low, are factored in already when determining corporate profits. Besides, corporate taxes are a fraction of what they were 50 years ago, before wage earners became the largest slice of the IRS and state tax revenue pies. I would blame the government if corporations contributed 70% of the tax revenues, as they did in the 1930s; corporations nowadays, however, contribute something along the lines of only 7-10% of taxes collected.

Profit becomes a problem when companies promise shareholders 20+% margins, and then get whacked by Wall Street investors when they fail to meet that targets. That, my friends, is short-term thinking. Too many institutional investors chase maximum shareholder regardless of how it arrives. A company that can’t make their margin with sales and profits has to cut expenses in some fashion in order to meet their promise to Wall Street. More often than not, the easiest and quickest way to cut expenses is to trim payroll or outsource manufacturing to countries with lower wages.

Ergo, it is more realistic to blame companies (and their Wall Street overlords) rather than governments for this sad state of affairs.

“I actually want everyone to get a fair shake . . .“

I think our true difference lies, not in numbers or stats, but in definitions.

What does “a fair shake” mean to you?

From what I can tell from those links of Bobbys is that home health assistant is the place to be.

I talked to my sister neighbor who does that. They get nearly no benefits make about $10 an hour and they get vacation but if they miss more than 2 hours a work a month they get none.

a fair shake is profit-sharing with your employees as well as your shareholders. if companies keep shafting their employees to make sure they can please the shareholders with that extra percent bump, all the added value from productivity gains flows directly into the pockets of the rich guys who own most of the stock.

how many companies give raises above inflation anymore? how many give decent yearly bonuses?

and don’t give me that ‘well if you don’t like it work somewhere else’ garbage. if every company is doing the same shit, there’s nowhere to go.

and let’s also not forget that if the employees continue to get shafted long enough there won’t be enough money left in the economy to buy all the shit that these companies are selling, because the rich shareholders will have sucked up all the value. it doesn’t trickle down, either.

I’m having a bad day, bobby. my phone got stolen this weekend and the shipping company is dicking me around about delivering it. sorry if I’m snappy.

“a fair shake is profit-sharing with your employees as well as your shareholders. if companies keep shafting their employees to make sure they can please the shareholders with that extra percent bump, all the added value from productivity gains flows directly into the pockets of the rich guys who own most of the stock.“

A. If you check, you’ll see that most large-cap stock is held directly by mutual fund-type investment vehicles, and those are held by a very economically diverse group through qualified accounts (401k’s, IRA’s, etc.) and in pension plans. So, the gains are flowing to the people who own the stock – i.e., most of us. The truly poor don’t have these, I know – but that’s a far cry from “only the rich can afford stock.”

B. How many companies give raises above inflation? Most companies that I know about do. Dunno where I’d find numbers on this – can only go by anecdote. And bonuses? Generall, from what I hear from others, good in good years, zero in bad years – isn’t that what you’re shooting for?

C. No, I’m not gonna stop with that “walk or work” theme, ‘cuz it’s central. No one is “shafted” when they decide to take or keep a job at a certain wage. With our unemployment figures, you can move, and there are people paying good wages.

D. If the rich have all the money, what good would it do them? They can’t buy cool cars unless auto workers are getting paid to make the cars, or food unless farmers are getting paid to grow it, or heroin unless dockworkers are clocking in to supervise the shipments.

delivering its replacement*

but yeah, and my job blows.

Thanks, kev. Those whaky Californians! What will they think of next?

“I’m having a bad day, bobby.“

Figured there was something goin on. You’re not usually this crabby.

“From what I can tell from those links of Bobbys is that home health assistant is the place to be.“

Stop looking at percentages, and look at raw numbers instead. By your reasoning, we should all become IPhone Hackers – from zero to 50 is just a HUGE increase when measured by percentage.

I don’t want to get too deep into this debate, but as far as “walk or work” – when was the last time you tried to look for a job, Bobby? I’m genuinely curious, not trying to be a brat.

For example, I’m well educated and highly qualified in my field. I had a freelance contract that ended in February of 2006. I started looking for a new job in December 05, and I finally found a job in April 06. Four months seems to me to be a long time to look for a gig. Especially when for two of those months you’re totally unemployed and living in your parents’ basement (cough). I have friends with similar stories; friends who quit jobs because of horrible working environments and had to work holiday retail to pay the bills until a “real” job came along, or friends who are trying to find new jobs while still at their old ones, and the point is: it takes for-freaking-ever to find a “white collar” job.

Sure, if you’re working at McDonald’s, it’s not a big deal to quit and move down the block to Taco Bell, they’ll hire you quickly. However, it doesn’t work that way for middle-class workers, and I think it’s somewhat illogical to say it’s as easy as “up and quit if you don’t like it” for a lot of people.

“Economic Flame War!”

Yeah, but where else can you go to see people furiously throwing Bureau of Labor Statistics charts and graphs at each other?

We may be rude and boorish savages, but we’re damned literate ones.

If you add home health aides and personal home care aides, both jobs that need little to no experience or schooling, they would be the largest in raw numbers also, greater than post secondary teachers.

Part of the problem with this debate is where you are coming from and how you view the numbers. I do believe in the capitalistic model and free markets. The concept is that through the free market the “invisible hand will deliver goods and services in the most economical method. where that begins to break down is when the “free market” becomes monopolized. Currently we have an oligopoly system, this is where approximately three companies control the market. This can be seen in many industries today. Where both parties rep. or dems fail is they both simplify the problem i.e. more taxes governmental control vs no taxes free markets. Both miss the point. In the end the struggle is between how to best deliver goods and services efficiently and profitably. In the old economy the shareholder was the stake holder and company profits motivated the market. Today Large investors that can’t be traced control the market. There goal is maximizing their profit not the companies or corporations profit. This creates a host of problems that we are all living with today. capital flows at will both human and monetary and this has a devastating affect on the middle class. The complaints being raised on this blog are a consequence of this capital movement, especially human capital. I agree with Bobby and Maz in principal markets are a good thing, however, when large institutional investors can manipulate the market this has a negative impact on the economy. “Free markets” do not exist anymore but markets none the less are present and necessary.

I hope that made some sense.

“I don’t want to get too deep into this debate, but as far as “walk or work” – when was the last time you tried to look for a job, Bobby? I’m genuinely curious, not trying to be a brat.“

Took my present spot about three years ago. Looked for a change while still at my old job. Had offers within two weeks, took about two months to decide which place to go. Got that job about four years prior – found it while still at job before that, with no real search – they asked me.

Had someone working for me decide to change direction recently – they went out, looked for jobs, found a better one within five weeks (damn) and left. I’ve interviewed several, but it’s tough because other employers are paying quite the premium in order to attract good candidates.

Generally, I’ve switched employers about every four years, fields every ten.

I once lost a job (business folded) with nothing new lined up. Took me about two weeks to get into something else.

Josie, your experience doesn’t seem to match that of anyone I know. Are you just in a small-volume-of-people-and-spots field? I mean, you may be the world’s absolute best accordian tuner, but openings are going to be tough.

Granted, I am in a field that’s more lots-of-people, fewer spots. However, friends with difficulties are not in my field. They sell things, do PR, etc.

I think it’s different at the level I’m at – which isn’t entry level but isn’t manager/director level either. It’s rough out there in this age group and at this career level.

bobby don’t you work in the services industry?

Hey – look at that coverage on KARE: 3M is thinking of moving to lower taxed countries – where they probably aren’t so narrow-mined as to object to 3M dumping chemicals into their wells and aquifers….

First they cut down all the trees and dig out all the minerals, and then they decide to leave because the lakes are full of their products and people want them to clean it up – where’s the legislature on this? where’s our famously Green Governor?

Bobby, you’re experience is the anomaly.

Josie’s experience matches my own. Each of my job searches has lasted minimum 4 months, 6 months for the last one.

I know several people whose searches have lasted 18-24 months.

“First they cut down all the trees and dig out all the minerals . . .“

Really? 3M did this?

“ . . . then they decide to leave because the lakes are full of their products and people want them to clean it up . . .“

And starting new jobs elsewhere gets them out of cleaning up here?

“where’s the legislature on this? where’s our famously Green Governor?“

They’re all probably sitting in a bar somewhere wondering how tranferring jobs could get 3M out of civil liability for pollution cleanup, and why all the other companies currently financing such cleanup didn’t think of such a brilliant solution.

Those whaky Californians! What will they think of next?

A cloned Vin Scully would be nice.

As far as stocks and profits and stuff…bobby is right about the IRAs and stuff. That gets spread out. ’sall good. Anyone want to trade me their IRA for my Social Security straight up?

the point is: it takes for-freaking-ever to find a “white collar” job.

here-here!

and bobby, your points are very valid, however:

A. If you check, you’ll see that most large-cap stock is held directly by mutual fund-type investment vehicles, and those are held by a very economically diverse group through qualified accounts (401k’s, IRA’s, etc.) and in pension plans. So, the gains are flowing to the people who own the stock – i.e., most of us. The truly poor don’t have these, I know – but that’s a far cry from “only the rich can afford stock.”

I do take issue with this. The average middle-class worker might have some stock in mutual funds or company stock in retirement plans, but they almost never have enough to appreciably benefit from the gains their work productivity might make. Savings and retirement are all well and good, but shouldn’t they also get some direct benefit from their employer for their good work? By the time the benefit filters down to share price in their portfolio it’s not always that great of a boost. There’s also the issue that some people need the money now, not when they’re sixty or sixty five or whenever you can retire now. Even if it’s taxed, I imagine a good portion of barely-making-ends-meet people would love to see the money up front. I know it probably encourages them to be irresponsible and not save, but aren’t you of the opinion that social engineering is bad? Encouraging people to buy homes and save for retirement via tax benefits/exemptions is really just social engineering in fiscal form.

oh and my job search is lasting a while too. It’s not like I’m not talented and qualified for things, it’s just that the narrower your expertise the longer it takes to find something right.

Wayne, you’re nibbling around the edges of a system in which there are defined outcomes. That’s just not how we are or how we should be. We’re defined opportunity. I know, you’ll take issue with that, too. But government can, and I would say should, pledge to provide equal opportunity because it can do so without unjust interference on those pursuing their desired outcomes. Since government is the only way to impose a defined outcome across a society, it would necessarily in some way have to put its foot in the path of someone pursuing an outcome in order to deliver the minimum outcome to someone who isn’t reaching it on their own (not unable reach it on their own). From there, it’s up to a peoples’ due diligence to make sure their government doesn’t take a mile for every inch they give it. Unfortunately, that’s exactly what’s been happening for the last several decades. Every time it does, it gets that much more difficult to chase an outcome…for everyone.

Savings and retirement are all well and good, but shouldn’t they also get some direct benefit from their employer for their good work?

They never promised you a rose garden. Work sucks that’s why they give you money.

Isn’t there some way we can blame this 3M move on the smoking ban?

it’s just that the narrower your expertise the longer it takes to find something right.

Exactly. You’re astonishingly correct sometimes, wayne.

“it would necessarily in some way have to put its foot in the path of someone pursuing an outcome in order to deliver the minimum outcome to someone who isn’t reaching it on their own (not unable reach it on their own). “

See, the problem with this is that it too easily sets up poverty as solely a moral failure, (unless the person is severely disabled, then I guess you might be willing to through him a few crumbs).

I think most people believe that if you work hard and play by the rules, there SHOULD be some minimum outcome.

And I seriously question whether an open society can survive very long if that’s not the case.

My issue with the last job search seemed to be that I was either vastly overqualified or vastly underqualified for most of the job postings I found. I applied to a lot of things anyway, knowing that they weren’t right. And luckily I (finally) found something that worked, but only because I applied for an entry-level job and my resume got spotted for something else I was qualified for.

So it worked out for me. But that’s when I had all day, every day, to do nothing but look for jobs. Trying to do a serious search while also still working your current job and taking care of your other responsibilities is really, really difficult.

Trying to do a serious search while also still working your current job and taking care of your other responsibilities is really, really difficult.

yes yes yes x a million.

and I’m having similar trouble with jobs either requiring some ridiculous number of years in the industry for something I know I could learn in a week, or just being shit jobs worse than what I have now.

where the hell are the good jobs for young people starting out their careers?

“where the hell are the good jobs for young people starting out their careers?”

Unless daddy’s name is on the company, or he knows where the CEO is burying the bodies, they are very few and far between..

You worked on LOST, j-dog. C’mon, you had to have known that would be the pinnacle of your career. That’s like my dream job right now. I envy you.

“where the hell are the good jobs for young people starting out their careers?”

Got two words for yas:

HEALTH CARE.

Do something for a living that the world needs and benefits from.
Pursue your own interests outside of that as a hobby instead of for a living.

So many of us were asked “what do you want to be when you grow up?” when we should have been asked “what will get good at in order to help other humans when you grow up?”

Kevin, um, I didn’t really work on LOST the show, I worked on promotions for LOST, and that in a very limited capacity. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Bx, I kind of wish I could have a health care career – except for that niggly issue of science being a wasteland of total confusion for me, and the fact I have a pretty tender tummy when it comes to bodily fluids.

Isn’t there some way we can blame this 3M move on the smoking ban?

Don’t forget ethanol!

Yeah, you bursted mah bubble pretty good, j-dog. But then you say things like I have a pretty tender tummy when it comes to bodily fluids. and mah bubble blows right back up again.

It’s kinda like Lucy and Charlie Brown with the football in an Internets age sort of way.

yeah some people just aren’t cut out for health care. I get icked out enough getting covered in food all day, but getting other people’s (potentially infectious) bodily fluids on me?
no, no I could not stomach that.

and thanks, I’ll just pursue math as a hobby now. there’s certainly no need for it in the real world or anything. I’m pretty sure everyone is super good at it and can do the number-crunching we need done, you’re right.

Josie, I don’t know what it is that you do. However, not all jobs relating to health care involve science or bodily fluids. For example, there are tons of medical device companies around. In addition to needing engineers to design the devices, they also need marketing folks, sales reps, regulatory reps, quality reps, etc. Don’t know if any of that trips your trigger.

Health care jobs aren’t ALL about science and ick. Going into health care does not necessarily imply being a nurse or any other kind of care practitioner.

People who do insurance coding, social work, medical records, medical sales, research, program coordination, HUCs (health unit coordinators), lab techs, equipment operators, the list goes on and on…..have tons of opportunities and make a comfortable living.

It’s a HUGE industry overflowing with money, and even entry-level workers in any of the above named capacities are never without decent-to-higher-end paying work…..that helps people. And it’s only going to get more lucrative.

It’s always strange to me that so many people my age (including myself) who were raised by pretty crunchy parents went on to get useless-ass liberal arts degrees. None of my hipster friends in their 30s ever considered health care, they all have lib arts degrees and struggle to stay employed.

It’s interesting that it seems like any other health care occupation besides being a doctor is considered so blue-collar. I wonder, anthropologically, why that is. Nursing degrees just don’t seem to hold the same intellectual image and appeal as an MFA, yet nurses make BANK these days….so that strikes me as an odd juxtaposition in our money-driven society. Is it just because of the (assumed) working-with-the-hands/public aspect of it?

This thread has gotten kind of garbled. It started out going down the roads of whether tax cuts are effective and beneficial for lower income people and then somehow turned into a discussion about whether companies should pay workers more and how it should be easier to find a job. The first topic makes sense and generates good discussion, but the second two don’t make a lot of sense.

I believe that somewhere up there Maz stated that large corporations exist to make money, not to provide jobs. And I’m going to have to agree with him for once. These companies pay the minimum that they think it takes to garner the quality of workers they believe they need to turn said profit. Period. That’s capitalism and it’s not going to change just because somebody whines that they don’t get paid enough. If you aren’t making enough money to please you, go back to school and/or switch fields to something that is more lucrative. There are plenty of high-paying jobs out there, but to Bx’s point, it might not be doing something that you love or involve getting paid for your favorite hobby.

Wayne made a statement about math being useful to the world, and while that’s true, if you aren’t finding a job, then it means your skill isn’t all that useful after all since there is no demand for it. That’s the bottom line; if you want to find a job that pays well and is easy to find, go into a field that has a lot of demand. Otherwise, be prepared to live with small paychecks and long job searches. End of story.

Hmmm. I just realized how awful that sentence truly was, Kevin.

Elizabeth, I’m not really interested in changing careers. But sometimes the thought crosses my mind of what would my life look like if I had done something else? Several of the women in my family are nurses, and to be honest, they turned me off to the medical field for a lot of reasons, so it’s not just my lack of sciencey knowledge that kept me out of med school.

The summer I spent working in medical records did me in for health care too.

Sentences like that, j, no matter how well intentioned, immediately send me to that place and I reflexivly make light of it. Time to eat my banana. nom nom nom

Tara is right, too. She said the same thing Wayne said erlier. We lament it a lot because it feels good to, but there’s a reason Johan Santana is going to command $20 million annual salary this winter. That’s the going rate for someone who is among the top five people in the world at Johan’s job, which he happens to be right now. It may not be the most critical job in the world, but it’s the skill he has and somebody wants to have him performing it for them. That’s how it is.

J-dog, do you have a tender tummy for eating bananas? nom nom nom (wink)

Well, hard work isn’t always enjoyable.

My point exactly. It’s fine to hold out for the job you love if you dont’ mind small paychecks and long job searches. But as an adult, you have to be aware of the consequences of your choices. If you’re money driven, you have to find jobs that are in demand, not jobs that you love. If you are lucky enough to find both, awesome, but it’s not a guarntee.

Wow, that was kind of unnecessarily snarky. I didn’t enjoy doing work that wasn’t interesting or challenging to me for a large conglomerate corporation.

As far as nursing, any joy my relatives may have gotten out of patient care was sucked away by paperwork and office politics.

Josie, I don’t think it was meant to be snarky. The point is that if enjoyment is a requirement for you in a job, you can’t really complain if you don’t get paid enough or if it takes you a while to get a job. I admire people who have noble jobs (like teaching) and live with the meager pay, but you know going into a field like teaching that you won’t get paid much. So complaining about a foregone outcome seems a little counter-productive. There are many motives for choosing a career. I am just saying that if money/stability are on the top of your list, you might have to make some concessions and take a job that you aren’t totally crazy about.

Well, sorry, Josie, but that’s just my philosophy about work. Sometimes you earn your money, and a lot of people don’t GET to earn theirs doing something “interesting” or “challenging” to them. Sometimes they earn it doing something needed, and sometimes that job isn’t cut out to fit THEIR needs.

And if your relatives got the joy of nursing sucked out of them, all that means is that they ALLOWED that to happen to them, they ALLOWED the paperwork and politics to get to them. Truly passionate, committed nurses never allow that to happen. Sorry but true. I speak from experience.

It’s always strange to me that so many people my age (including myself) who were raised by pretty crunchy parents went on to get useless-ass liberal arts degrees. None of my hipster friends in their 30s ever considered health care, they all have lib arts degrees and struggle to stay employed.

I have 2 sisters in the same category. One is starting college soon.

My advice to her was get a degree that is similar to a job title.

Good (employable)
Doctorate
Law
Accounting
Nursing
Computer Science

Not so good:
Indian Studies
Art History
Philosophy
English
Sociology

I’m not saying the second list are bad degrees, but try doing a job search for “indian studier” or “art historian” and see what shows up.

Sounds like the twenty somethings are having a reality check today. Guss what, It is a big mean world. No one owes you anything. The labor market is not concerned with your needs, wants or desires. It pays the lowest rate it can for as much work as it can get out of you, no more or less. You most likely will not become self-actualized through your job. LIFE IS NOT FAIR.

I…didn’t….complain…about my job? I actually love the field I’m in, and I’m happy with my salary and benefits. I was talking more about the general difficulty of finding a job.

Bx, sorry, but don’t talk about my momma that way. She’s an amazing nurse, and she loves her patients, and now she finally has a job where the office environment is one that she enjoys as much as she does the rest of her job.

What kind of doctorate? you can certainly get a doctorate in Indian Studies.

A job search for Indian Studies or art historian?

Your probably going to find listings at auction houses and museums, for starters. And considering the state of the art and high end auction business, they may likely pay pretty well. Museums, probably not so much, unless you move into an administrative capacity.

Not that there are going to be a large number of openings, but then, there probably aren’t all that many people getting those degrees either.

Josie, when I said “you” I didn’t mean “you=Josie”. I was talking of people in general. I should have said “one”, not “you”.

As far as nursing, any joy my relatives may have gotten out of patient care was sucked away by paperwork and office politics.

She’s an amazing nurse, and she loves her patients, and now she finally has a job where the office environment is one that she enjoys as much as she does the rest of her job.

Yeah, okay.

It is Misunderstanding Thursday! Gotcha, Tara.

Kevin, really, that is so undignified…

During my period of unemployment/job hunting, I did have a drop dead date for where I was going to bail on my field, get some kind of retail/bar job to keep paying my bills, and rethink things. I got my job a week before that drop dead date. I was ready to change with the market if I had to, and I’d be ready to do that again. Now that I’ve dropped my workaholic ways, total adoration of my job is no longer a life necessity for me. But I hope I never dread going to work on a regular basis. Idealistically, I hope no one feels that way.

But then, there probably wouldn’t be anyone to clean the toilets, so what can you do.

Tara: Why do you have to be so right? Damn you!!!!

I want to be an artist. But I want to be a rich artist damn it!!!

For a long time, my mother hated going to work, because she worked at a horrible office, but that never, ever affected the quality of the care she gave her patients. And now she loves going to work, because she works at a much better office, which is really nice for her nearing the end of her career.

Bx, let’s just drop it. I respectfully disagree with you.

Uh, okay. I’m not sure exactly what you’re so respectfully disagreeing with, but I’ll take it. I thought this was about you, not your mom, anyway. But whatever takes the attention off you.

And hey mnblrmkr? It’s called “Indigerati Studies” now. K?

Takes the attention off…oh, whatever.

Kevin, really, that is so undignified…

I hope you aren’t expecting more, cause that’s all I’ve got to give.

“And hey mnblrmkr? It’s called “Indigerati Studies” now. K?”

No skin off my nose, but you should probably direct that at Pete. I was simply responding to his comment.

Josie: Don’t listen to Tara or Bx. Do what you love to do and the money will follow. Don’t do something just because it’s the hot career. Do it for the right reasons: because you really want to do it. I’ve found that there are things that I am really excited about doing now that I would have never wanted to do when I was twenty two.

Oh, you young people!!

No skin off my nose, but you should probably direct that at Pete.

Actually, Bx was joking about that.

I do love what I do, most days!

Kevin, Kevin, Kevin, always leave us wanting more!!

Thanks msparber.

I think this is Maz’s vision of the inner workings of the American labor market.

It’s pretty bad that the last John Wayne in this town is a bleeping indian.

Wayne was half-bleeping Indian in Hondo, maz.

I got that one on DVD. I love the Duke’s good stuff.

If you’re John Wayne then I’m Flavor Flav. Fight the power!

Best job advice I ever received was from a teacher in high school. “If you want to make big money look into fields where the work is mentally hard and boring. Everyone wants the fun jobs and they tend not to pay well. “

Still true to this day Mr.Anderson.

One John Wayne was about enough.

Do what you love to do and the money will follow. That seems a bit disingenuous. I love to sit around and do nothing. Or just read all day. I highly doubt I’d be paid a salary comparable to what I get now to do those things.

The job market is supply-and-demand, just like everything else. A lot of people love getting liberal arts degrees, but there’s not the comparable supply of jobs needing them. Hence the low starting salaries.

Best advice I got in high school was when the bus driver taught us all how to roll a joint properly. Certainly affected my career choice.

I love to sit around and do nothing. Or just read all day. I highly doubt I’d be paid a salary comparable to what I get now to do those things.

don’t give up so quickly…I’ll bet Tom pays Max pretty well to do those very things.

I love to sit around and do nothing. Or just read all day. I highly doubt I’d be paid a salary comparable to what I get now to do those things

Ever considered being a bad professional coach? Usually they get fired with a few years and millions on their contract and then get to do exactly that.

G rote, thankfully I learned that lesson at home.

I don’t do nothing! I don’t do nothing at all!

I spent the day writing and recording a new song. I don’t know how you can call that “nothing.”

And by “writing and recording,” of course I mean singing inappropriate new lyrics over an record from 1922 in the voice of my puppet.

PS. Matt pays me.

Elizabeth, you’re right. My advice is nothing more than a tired, old cliche.

I wouldn’t want to discourage anyone from following their dreams, though. Just trying to lighten the tone of the depressing, dreary topic!!!

Kevin, Kevin, Kevin, always leave us wanting more!!

Well stop bursting my bubble then!! Pavlov’s dog here!

I didn’t mean to imply that tom pays you directly.

“And hey mnblrmkr? It’s called “Indigerati Studies” now. K?”

Polital incorrectness was not my intent. Indian Studies was the degree my sister got at Bemidji State. (Currently, she answers phones for a home shopping network in Florida.)

Too bad people here were trying to give realistic advice, like, “If money is important to you, consider careers that are in high demand.” But that’s too depressing, so we should just tell everyone happy, sunshiney rainbow thinks like “Follow your dreams! Of course, no matter what vocation you choose, money will fall from the sky!”

Most people are going to fail in more ways than they know, coming out of college. Doesn’t matter what path they choose.

I’d say, follow your dreams. You’ll survive one way or another.

“You can’t always get what you want, but if you try, you’ll get what you need.”

Interseting Minnesota side note:

The origin of the song was the result of Jagger’s chance to meet with a man named Jimmy Hutmaker after a concert in 1964. While Jagger was having a prescription filled at a drugstore in Excelsior, Minnesota, the outgoing Mr. Hutmaker complained to him that he had ordered a Cherry Coke but received a regular Coca Cola instead. Hutmaker concluded that “You can’t always get what you want,” and the rest is (folk) history. Hutmaker died in October 2007.

(and I won’t jump on you for mangling the line)

I’ve met folks from Excelsior who defend that Mr. Jimmy story to the death, but the fact of the matter is that Jagger says “Chelsea Drug Store” and not “Excelsior Drug Store” in the song. Fabrication.

I’d like to chime in about Health Care jobs that don’t involve direct patient care. The industry is becoming increasingly corporate, not that it’s a bad thing, but keep that in mind when you’re looking to “help people” without getting blood or puke on you. It’s an excellent way to get into the “corporate world” without feeling as if you are a lowly cog in the wheel of a giant corporate machine.

I knew Mr. Jimmy.

Crazy. I’m not sure his story about meeting Mick Jagger isn’t true, but in no way did he inspire the song.

“Do what you love to do and the money will follow.“

Maybe. If you coat yourself in bacon grease and “the money” is the name of your dog . . . maybe.

Or, if what you love to do is done by very, very few people, but lots of other people are willing to pay you lots of their own money to get you to do what you love to do for them, then, again, maybe.

Life’s a long quest for daily personal happiness, and you’re usually still frustrated when night comes. Happiness can come from doing what you love to do. It can also come from the satisfaction of knowing that, even if you didn’t absolutely love your day, other people thought well enough of your efforts that they chose to pay you a grand pile of money in order to induce you to make those efforts. (No, money can’t buy happiness, but I’d rather be driving a hot car while I’m searching for it and not that POS Dodge I owned right out of college.)

Most people are broke and frustrated out of college and well into their thirties. Jobs for newbies suck, and pay badly, and you’re a newbie until you start developing some value for others in what you can do. (I’m assuming that your value lies in some intellectual pursuit, and not shoveling stuff.) No one pays you for your potential, or your intelligence, or your character. (They may NOT pay you because of a lack of them, though.)

Mostly, the people you see driving the expensive cars in from the really nice burbs to catch the opening night and maybe a $300 snack aren’t in their 20’s. Or even their 30’s. Sure, there’ll be some like that, but not many. Most went through what everyone here thinks makes this era so bad. Hell, I know one guy who went to a highly regarded college, double-majored in econ and geology, then realized they both bored him silly, so he cast about for almost 7 years doing the same kind of stuff he did pre-college, and then finally went back to school for a completely different field, started in that field in total scut capacities and areas, fell into something never contemplated, and now makes decent buck and loves the daily experience.

So, if you’re under forty, and you constantly feel broke and directionless and without any hope for the kind of future you always assumed you could have, don’t sweat it. You’re right on track.

I knew crazy Mister Jimmy, too. (Of course, we always figured he was a half-drunk and addled child molester, and not this romantic character the paper makes him out to be. When I was in 7th grade or so, if you walked out of the drugstore and he was there, he’d sort of amble over to you and just gently poke his finger into you as he whispered to his demons.)

Where the heck did you grow up? I’m gonna be pissed if I find out you’re really my sister.

“The industry is becoming increasingly corporate . . .“

Old cartoon: Late moonlit night on the open prairie, stars overhead going on forever, an indistinct herd of cows off in the murky distance, and two cowboys on their horses watching the herd from atop a nearby cliff, looking small and insignificant in the huge and endless expanse, and one says to the other “I hate the corporate politics, but my next transfer puts me into middle management.”

When I was a teenager, we moved out to a house on Christmas Lake in Excelsior.

The problem with majoring in/training in the thing the job market says in “hot” may not be hot by the time your broke self manages to graduate (I did not do it in 4 years – those two jobs I worked made it tough to carry full credit loads each quarter/semester) One relative got a degree in computers just in time for the big IT layoffs. IT is growing again, but now she’s nearly graduated from a medical training program. She’s been working the whole time she’s been in school. The stress has resulted in multiple medical problems. Thankfully her husband has a reasonably decent job.

I also knew Mr.Jimmy and grew up for a time about a block from Christmas Lake.

That lake had some giant turtles.

we’ve got a friend who grew up on Radisson Road @ Christamas Lake in a retrofitted & expanded Radisson Inn cottage…her parents still live there and entertain quite often. I’m planning on making them a below market offer and sincere promise to maintain the historic integrity of the house when I sense they are ready to move out. chaming, magical place.

grote, best of luck to you. That would be quite the score. I miss Excelsior, but rarely return. With so much new development it’s a different place than my childhood memories.

And your typical 850 sq ft “cottage” is now $595,000.

And your typical 850 sq ft “cottage” is now $595,000.

I don’t doubt that one bit.