Secrets of the City

Ok, ignoring the sickle for just a moment, someone was using a push mower in the fight??? Was it running and they were trying to cut off a toe, or were they picking it up and swinging it around like a gasoline-filled baseball bat? Bizarre.

Had they brandished a hammer in addition to the sickle, maz would never shut up about the “commies” in our town.

Come to think of it, he’s doing that already…

I find the sex offender story very confusing. The financial impact of counties moving slowly on the commitment process is not clearly indicated.

Perhaps this is what the AP means: (it is a confusing issue, and a confusing article) While commitment hearings unfold, the county must pay about $387 per day to keep the offender incarcerated.

In Ramsey County, those costs are expected to total $670,000 this year, on top of the $370,000 the county will pay to house sex offenders who’ve already been committed. It’s a fivefold increase in two years. Washington County will pay about $300,000 this year — more than 12 times the tab of three years ago…. the state’s off the hook if the Legislature doesn’t set aside funds — and it has not done so in seven years.

Right, I saw that, but I guess what confused me was: a) the fact that the article started out addressing costs of state hospitals and then moved to the cost of holding referees during the commitment process, and b) it’s not clear how the 670k (for Ramsey) and 300k (for Washington) projections are impacted by the amount of time it takes them each to process the commitment referrals. In other words, are these counties dragging their feet? It seems that McClung and Berglin are suggesting that they are, but I saw nothing in the piece to back that up.

Maybe I just skimmed too fast though…

I see what you mean justpbob. Attempting to insult maz is really adding a lot. The elitist stench is overwhelming. Only a few minutes after preaching at me you are off doing what you claim to detest. Golly oh so wise bob, is this bush league baiting or conversation?

I think the counties are sitting around, waiting for the last minute to start the committment process, costing them all that money, so in part, it is their fault.

But of course, the state isn’t paying their part, so I can see why the counties are mad. If they were, the 670K for Ramsey would be knocked in half, since that is what the State’s portion is.

I just don’t get how they get away with the civil commitment thing, anyhow. They prosecute these folks and send them to jail, where they do their time. Then they turn around and say, “oh, our bad, really the guy (gal) is crazy” and get them civially committed. If they are crazy, shouldn’t they be in the hospital to begin with, not in jail? Or, if they aren’t crazy, as the counties first argue, shouldn’t the offenders be allowed to go free after they serve their time?

And, as they point out, no one is ever cured. So, basically a sex crime equals a life in prision sentance for all these guys. It just seems like a miscarriage of justice.

Let’s not bring Maz into the conversation until he actually joins the conversation.

Point taken. Sorry, maz.

I just fell off my barstool.

the fact that you’re on a barstool @ 10am on a Monday morning gives tremendous insight into your surliness. kthxbai!

I agree with you kc! But it’s always a loser to be on the side of the sex offenders. At least to be perceived to be on the side of the sex offenders. (I mean– we notify neighbors when a “sex offender” moves into town, but murderers can move in unnoticed.)

Sorry (fyi, not really sorry ds) grote, I thought if I stacked it I would be showing the kind of self effacing humor that libs like in your conservatives. We must be kept in our place and it’s better if we do it to ourselves. I would say though that I’m more a Furious guy than generally Surly.

… it’s better if we do it to ourselves

Or you can pay someone to do it, but that’s illegal.

I do feel bad for sex offenders sometimes, and you are right Jason, that is never the position to take.

If a known gang member moves in next door, who tells you? No one. There are some sex offenders that I would prefer next door to gang members. Why aren’t there maps that mark where all the gang members live?

The answer of course is because they have a right to privacy, just like sex offenders should.

And why don’t we try to civally commit gang members, I’d argue that many of them are incredibly mentally ill.

I would say though that I’m more a Furious guy than generally Surly.

Generall speaking, Surly can do no wrong…but Furious is currently Omar’s Magnum Opus.

Careful, we all know that “gang member” is a racial code word.

Why aren’t there maps that mark where all the gang members live?
There are, we just don’t get to see them.

huh huh huh good one, bud. huh huh huh

This is an example of where investment in dealing with dysfunctional families on the front end will save us money on the back end. It’s the rare sex offender who didn’t come from a household where he/she was sexually molested or abused in some fashion. The exception to that rule is the 18 year-old boy who is labeled a sex offender for having consensual sex with his 15 year-old girlfriend.

icarrie, will you please now enlighten us on how gang members originate?

bud…pretty sure it’s via mitosis.

“They prosecute these folks and send them to jail, where they do their time. Then they turn around and say, “oh, our bad, really the guy (gal) is crazy” and get them civially committed. If they are crazy, shouldn’t they be in the hospital to begin with, not in jail? Or, if they aren’t crazy, as the counties first argue, shouldn’t the offenders be allowed to go free after they serve their time?“

They don’t say “they’re crazy” as in McNaughtan crazy (i.e., “not guilty due to lonnytunieness.”) They say “they’re disordered, and are very likely to re-offend if we let them out, so we’re going to commit them civily to preserve public safety.”

(A good, depressing (but now eight-year-old, so RAYOR) paper on how MN deals with the mentally ill in criminal law can be read here.

( http://www.metrostate.edu/slc/pdf/mentallyillcriminals.pdf )

A gang is a surrogate extended family unit. Children join gangs to feel the sense of protection and security they do not get in their home. Even kids in decent families may join gangs because the gang family can protect them better than their real one can if their neighborhood or school is especially dangerous. Gangs have rules (albeit twisted ones) but those boundaries are generally clear and punishment for violating those rules are also known (and carried out)  much like a skilled parent would do for their child. Members of the gang family are committed to each other and are sworn to protect the other members with their life. There is a clear cut hierarchy (unlike unhealthy family units where sometimes the children function more as parents than parents do) and once you are a member of a gang it’s determined that you will always be a member (like a real family). If you keep looking, you can find more parallels.

At one time extended families lived together in one house or even one town. If they didn’t, it was still likely that the same people lived in the same neighborhoods together for a long time and got to know each other – looked out for each other’s kids and ratted them out to their parents if they thought the kids were getting in trouble. Everyone likes to joke about Hillary Clinton’s “It takes a village” but I think it does. Community is really important and we now spend so much time trying to hustle a buck and keep our heads above water that the time to form strongly bonded families and tight communities isn’t there.

Nice document, I sure do like the govdocs…
13% of inmates mentally ill in 97, I wonder what it would be now with the expanded definition for PTSD in the latest revisions in the 2000 version of the DSM-IV. This raises some questions about linking recidivism and mental health treatment or lack of it.

Does anyone have any reputable sources about learning disabilities and crime? I have heard some talk of there being a link and always wondered if it held water.

“Does anyone have any reputable sources about learning disabilities and crime?“

Go to LDonline.com. It’s an advocacy site, obviously, but not one that tends to draw outrageous conclusions. Quite a few studies are discussed.

Here’s one: http://www.ldonline.org/article/5729

Why aren’t there maps that mark where all the gang members live?

There are. Here you go.

http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/police/crime-statistics/codefor/shotsfired.asp

As always, just cut and paste the link.

This is an example of where investment in dealing with dysfunctional families on the front end will save us money on the back end.

Spending taxpayer money to save taxpayer money is not a virtue on something for which taxpayer money should not be spent in the first place.

Everyone likes to joke about Hillary Clinton’s “It takes a village” but I think it does.

The reason people joke about hillary’s “village” is because it’s run by the government.

And because it really just takes a village of 2. A mom and a dad that is.

so what’s a single parent to do, Kev? should the child just give up?

“Spending taxpayer money to save taxpayer money is not a virtue on something for which taxpayer money should not be spent in the first place.”

We already have one of the highest levels of incarcerated population in the Western world, Should we double or triple that population?

Maybe we should just turn the country into into a version of John Carpenter’s “Escape from New York.”

Yes, grote, obviously.

Taxpayer money is supposed to be used for serving the public good. I think not getting molested or shot is something all citizens would agree is a good thing for them.