Secrets of the City

That’s f’ed up.

Ugh. This is despicable.

That’s terrible.
I hope they catch the bastards.

This is so obviously retaliation.

Retaliation for…? Do you mean the incident a few months back where Pham caught the couple who had dined ‘n dashed at Temple trying it again at Azia? Or does he have a history of problems with gangs in the area?

I hope this is retaliation. If it is then hopefully it will make it easier to track down these idiots and put them behind bars. If it isn’t then it is scary that this could happen to any random person.

I wish the punishment for this type of crime put these people in prison until they are too old to physical damage anything or anyone.

It does seem like it must be something more than a random mugging.

It seems unusual that such a big group would be out prowling for victims at such an early hour. Makes it seem like they must have been looking for him particularly, either because somebody knew that he’d be carrying out a lot of money, or, as somebody else had suggested, in retaliation for something (although I’d doubt it would be the dine-and-dash incident).

Do you mean the incident a few months back where Pham caught the couple who had dined ‘n dashed at Temple trying it again at Azia?

Yes, that’s my thinking.

I wish Thom a speedy recovery. This sort of stuff makes me sick.

Waiting around at 345am for him to leave? That’s so lame to sit and plan it out… ugh.

this isn’t far from the greenway, where people here were saying there’s been lots of random beatings after dark- the “knock out kings” if memory serves.

Thinking the same thing, MunsingW.

My thinking is that the dine-and-dash incident got a fair amount of attention in the press — and Thom was the one who directly confronted them. So this was retaliation.

Maybe i’m wrong.

Oh my god, how horrible!

He’s lucky he wasn’t killed. My cousin was hit with a 2×4 in a bar fight and was in a coma for months, suffered a stroke, and can no longer walk. I hope he’ll be OK and that these fucksticks are found…

what an awful fucked up situation….I had this happen to a coworker in detroit, (but it was a prelude to a robbery with a lone attacker), so we instituted the following rules:
1) never leave alone
2) be armed, at a minimum, with pepper foam
3) move your car(s) into a highly visible spot early in the evening
4) have the nearest police precinct on speed dial on your cell phone and on the house phone
5) vary your departure routine

For real… his injuries sound really serious! Ugh!!!

I can’t help but think that robbery is a likely motive…

Terrible that such things need to happen before people see the merits of the MPPA.

I don’t get it Binky, you’re saying the Minnesota Pork Producer’s Association was behind the attack?

What is happening to Minneapolis?

This is not any beating, this is a high profile beating, an attack on a vibrant business owner that should not be taken lightly, if it isn’t handled correctly this can bring a lot of strife and fear to the area.

It will be a matter of time before this kind of behavior moves to uptown. North and South will mesh together into a web of deranged zombies walking at night beating up peaceful folks. You see it downtown; there is a LOT of gang graffiti all over uptown. I am sickened.

Surely the Minnesota Press Photographers Association couldn’t have done much more than snap some photos!

Minnesota Personal Protection Act.

More commonly known as the Concealed Carry Act.

Do you know for a fact that Mr. Pham was not carrying a weapon? And do you know for a fact that he could have killed all of his attackers before they upped their retaliation.

I’m not sure Mr. Pham’s terrible attack last night is the right platform for you to hijack with your one-note paranoid political viewpoints. Mr. Pham was perfectly capable taking care of himself. If you’ve ever taken any sort of self-defense, they will tell you that when you’re up against more than a few people, even if armed, you’re screwed.

And to max’s point, isn’t T. Pham a Judo instructor?
I guess what I’m trying to say is the same thing that max just said… so I’m done.

this isn’t a good example either for or against conceal/carry. there’s no way of telling if his being armed would have prevented the attack or escalated it.

When is Minneapolis going to get with the program and start locking people up who are in gangs (their were 8 of them). They should be tried as terrorists. The “safe” parts of the city are not safe anymore.

Everyone knows you don’t bring a gun to a brick fight.

I just finished talking with Thom for a story we’re planning at 10pm. A couple oddities:

He was driving a car: It wasn’t stolen.
He had a briefcase in his car with money: it wasn’t touched.

This seemed (to him) to be a personal thing, people targeting him for some reason. He said they didn’t say a word, though. No yelling, no anger. As if they were just going about a job they were hired to do.

Very strange. And to those who love to hear the race of the suspects: Thom said the first group of guys that went after him were likely white, the second group were light skinned– but he couldn’t tell if they were Asian, Hispanic or white.

Zombie grafitti!? I’m never leaving my house again.

God. Thanks for the update, Jason. How is he doing?

Thanks Jason. It’s good to have you around to fill in the blanks for us. It did seem personal somehow which has to be very scary for TP.

Wait, did you say TP was in a car and it wasn’t stolen?

I don’t get it.

hired job? minneapolis mob?

He looked pretty good (although groggy from the painkillers). He’s got some swelling and a bruise under his right eye (from the brick dropped on his face), and he said his head hurt from being whacked with a stick.

I got beaten up by a group of about 10 people once. They all went after my head, which turned out to be fortunate, as you’re head can take a lot of beating. My only injury was from my wrist, when I fell to the ground. I may have had a black eye as well.

Man, do I mis LA.

fuhhhhhh

this isn’t a good example either for or against conceal/carry. there’s no way of telling if his being armed would have prevented the attack or escalated it.

You’re right, to a point… nothing can beat a level head and situational awareness. To constantly be aware of all your surroundings is key.

As for the attack, it may have leveled the field, too; it may have given the attackers second thoughts about their target (or their job, if it was a “for hire” situation), or it may have reduced the number of attackers to be dealt with in other ways.

Jason, please clarify. Did Tom Pham describe them as, “As if they were just going about a job they were hired to do.”…or was that you editorializing?

he was driving?

“What is happening to Minneapolis?“

Uh, nothing, really. It’s been this way for some time. I’m not seeing why this is worse or more meaningful because it was against “a vibrant business owner” – unless you simply mean because it’ll get more publicity and make the city look bad? At least steps get taken in response to the city’s image being bashed – so maybe this will have results that are ultimately good. (Not that I’d call this guy getting beat on a “good”, by any means.)

I believe Thom also owns one of my favorite restaurants….Thanh Do in St. Louis Park.

This is unbelievably sick. Hopefully they’ll thrown the book at these a-holes when they catch them. And I have a feeling they will catch them.

We already know the two dingleberries he busted previously weren’t the brightest couple haven’t gone to two restaurants owned by the same person.

They’re also likely dumb enough to realize they’d be the prime suspects in a beating where they left cash and a 80K car with the keys in it. It will be interesting to see where this leads. Speedy recovery to Thom.

TP left Temple, drove to Azia. Parked in the lot next to Anemone. Got out of car, got jumped, and whacked with a stick. Tried to make a run for it… blocked in my another van with a 2nd group of people. Running, trying to evade 6-8 people. Gets tackled. Dude goes to hit him with a brick, TP grabs his arm, slows it, so he doesn’t get slammed with brick, it just drops on his head.

Then someone drives by Nicollet, slows down after seeing the craziness, and the men scatter.

TP said he thought it odd that if these people had a personal beef with him, that they wouldn’t say anything. He said he has no idea of motiviation, but he did speculate that they may have been hired. (Although he said the guys who dined and dashed prob. wouldn’t have money to hire someone- so he doubts it’s them).

Yes, he owns Thanh Do too. Poor guy. What a mess.

Any thinking person knows EXACTLY what is happening to this town.

Lawless progeny of the welfare programs that were so generously handed out in the 80’s are now home to roost.

Even Tony Bouza knows it.

And yet we elect the boy mayor who will not let the police do their job.

everyone should book a table at Azia this weekend as a show of support. I highly recommend the cedar plank smoked salmon.

did anyone get the van plates? like the person driving by?

My paranoic suspicious conspiracy-freakish Inner Cynic is telling me that this is the kind of story that ends four months later when we find that the men were trying to recover the 80 kilos of pure Iranian meta-flake he snatched from under their noses out of the airport luggage locker in the dead of night, or that they were disciples of the new cult of the goddess Pattini sent to bring him back to his rightful place as the goddess’s chef as foretold in his mother’s palm lines, or that he was mistaken for someone else as he got out of his expensive car in a dark place.

Binky, I’m not sure how having a gun (or even pepper spray) would have helped when you’re whacked from behind and then ganged up on by about 8 other guys. Very likely, he could have been shot with his own gun. Even more likely, I’m assuming Azia bans guns on the premisis and he wouldn’t even had it on him, had he had a gun (too many “hads” there). Running away and/or protecting your face/soft parts seemed to be the best defense.

I think I’ll order some take out from Tanh Do this week…I’m only a block and a half away.

Bud, you’ve mistaken the gurgling of a burst artery in your gray matter for thinking.

buuuuuddddddd, stoopppppp.

uh, yeah, an organized gang of thugs with a vendetta jumping someone in the middle of the night is definitely the mayor’s fault because we don’t have a cop on every corner all night long.

what?

Couldn’t write that better for television.

Sounds like he’ll be okay. Hope they catch the fuckers. Sounds like it’ll be hard, though.

Now I’m hungry. The Carmella and Sea Bass are both excellent at Azia and if you want updated comfort food, the Kannon steak and potatoes is an asian version of the midwest staple meal. Yummy!

totally getting Cranberry Curry Tofu and hot & sour soup from Than Do tonight…and thanking my lucky stars that I park in Block E, where it’s 100% safe.

The Phamous Group, his management company, oversees assets worth about $10 million

I guess it’s just unfathomable to me that a person can be in a situation where eight unknown people, bent on agression, can get close enough to attack without him first taking a defensive posture.

As for the “[Hopolophobics Club Member] Bans Guns on These Premisis” angle, then they should be legally liable, not only for effectively disarming the victim but then failing to provide adequate security after disarming said victim.

Sadly, there are waaay to many liberals in the metro.

Here we go. Next someone will blame the new football stadium being built at the U.

Yep, it’s a good thing that restaurant bans guns on it’s premesis!

No way would the owner be able to carry one!

I’d rather blame the twins stadium than the U stadium.

I guess I’ll take the middle ground and blame both.

Maybe the governor too? Sure, why not.

grote: Azia has the Cranberry Cury Tofu as well – perfect choice.

speaking of cults, does anyone know anything about the weird house on like 13th & E Hennepin?

What’s meta-flake?

As with the beating death of Howard Porter, the facts will illuminate.

My money is on a connection to the guys he caught ripping him off previously.

And yes, WAY too many liberals in the metro.

What do you call a liberal crime victim?

A conservative.

TP left Temple, drove to Azia. Parked in the lot next to Anemone. Got out of car, got jumped, and whacked with a stick. Tried to make a run for it… blocked in my another van with a 2nd group of people. Running, trying to evade 6-8 people. Gets tackled. Dude goes to hit him with a brick, TP grabs his arm, slows it, so he doesn’t get slammed with brick, it just drops on his head.

»» Submitted by »»» jderusha at 1:41 PM on September 5

Binky: seems like you missed Jason’s earlier comment. But, I’m sure you’ll have some: “if it were me” rebuttal so…

Have you guys had the Azia spanker soup with tofu? It has cranberries too and is so delicious. I get it at least once a week.

Binky & Bud,

I love the smell of class fear in the morning…. Smells like…. Republican victory!!!

I love how some people talk about “liberals” and “conservatives” like they’re two different breeds of people. Hello! we’re all human even if we have divergent ideologies!

Got out of car, got jumped, and whacked with a stick. Tried to make a run for it… blocked in my another van with a 2nd group of people. Running, trying to evade 6-8 people. Gets tackled…

Got out of car and got jumped. Was he sleeping when he pulled into the parking spot? Was the guy closing the distance (with a stick in his hand no less) while he pulled into his spot wearing one of those “predator” suits that made him (the attacker) totally invisible?

Tried to make a run for it… blocked in my another van with a 2nd group of people. There’s no shame in retreating, usually it’s the best option. But once the 2nd van pulled up, blocking him in, it was time to take a more agressive defensive posture, defending himself with whatever force was necessary.

Running, trying to evade 6-8 people. Gets tackled… Cautiously backing up while carefully chosing shots… Beretta 92 FS holds 15 rounds of 9mm, plus one in the chamber. 2rds each x 8 people = 16. Spare mags would allow for 4 rds each, if necessary.

I do not choose to be a victim.

And what do you call a conservative who got sick?

A liberal.

And why does every situation turn into a liberal vs. conservative issue? I like to think I’m pretty open minded which some will call being liberal, but there are issues and situations in which I’m cut and dry which some will say is conservative.
Is it possible to have a discussion about a situation, i.e. the beat down of Thom Pham without making it political?

I hope he has a full and quick recovery. What an unfortunate situation for anyone to have to go through.

In light of yesterday’s discussion of hypothetical race implications of urban police actions, how is it we never posed the age-old “What would happen if a successful young Asian-American were attacked by a group of white or Latino kids?”

Also, how? How did this thread get to the well-worn paths of “liberal vs. conservative”? Could one of our scientific folk on MNSpeak do some sort of thread genome project that shows where along the evolutionary chain of every thread does the discussion end up in the same damn place.

You know what’s hilarious? Har har, liberals drive this way, conservatives drive that way! Har har!

People who can’t discuss anything that happens in the news without figuring out what their party’s talking points on the subject will be, and how to spin the issue to forward their pet issues, really are just poison to a discussion.

News story: “Cat stuck in tree, firemen rescue it”

Normal people: “aww!” and/or “so what?”
Conservatives: “What a waste of my tax dollars! Those cat-coddling liberals need to stop taxing me to rescue their lazy cats that don’t pay any taxes!”
Liberals: “The cat would have never been stuck in the tree in the first place if the tree had an accessible ramp to and from the branches! If the conservatives hadn’t wasted all our money on a fruitless war in Iraq we could afford to make sure that cats everywhere would never get stuck again! And give free shots and neuterings!”

You know what’s hilarious? Har har, liberals vote for liberal candidates, conservatives vote for conservative ones. Har har!

Except that it has real consequences, you know? Those are concrete differences, and it matters.

As for Tom, this is terrible news. I wish him a speedy recovery.

I’m buying Cat a Coke.

After reading Jason’s account, it sounds like it was done out of intimidation or some such thing. And I’m ruling out the dine-and-dashers, because they were clearly too amateur hour to try something like this.

So why would somebody be trying to intimidate a restauranteur?

Here’s one I think we can agree on: 8 people against one lone, weaponless man. These 8 people are cowards.

Because some people just cannot resist the urge to let us know that they have all the answers. To everything.

Don’t any of you realize that Thom would have been 100% protected and safe if he had just carried a gun? Geez, you’re all dumb.

Yay – I win, I get a coke.

Could one of our scientific folk on MNSpeak do some sort of thread genome project that shows where along the evolutionary chain of every thread does the discussion end up in the same damn place.

Not quite what you’re asking for, but hopefully it’ll do. I give you, the lifecycle of an MNSpeak thread:

News story: “Cat stuck in tree, firemen rescue it”

No, I’m right here, but if I knew the firemen who rescued me were H-O-T, I’d get stuck in a tree every day.

Those cat-coddling liberals

Maybe that’s the problem. If everyone was coddle like the liberals coddle me, we’d all be one big slap-happy human race.

Don’t any of you realize that Thom would have been 100% protected and safe if he had just carried a gun? Geez, you’re all dumb.

Them’s fightin’ words, pardner *snort, spit* – actually when I was growing up I wanted to be like my bros so I took the gun safety course to learn to shoot and I’m a helluva shot, but the idea of carrying a gun, especially loaded is horrifying to me. Too many variables that make me way too nervous.

It’s too bad these guys didn’t beat down David Fhima. Because that guy has it coming.

Binky you’re creeping me out. You watch too many movies, dude.

if anyone wants a beer (or a coke?) I just got paid and am doing happy hour with frandz today after work.

I guess this probably isn’t the most appropriate thread to say this in, though ):

That graph is hilarious.

Okay, time for my nap.

Wayne, that graph was great!

How about this for headlines. Liberals and conservatives from the suburbs do not come to Minneapolis anymore because they are afraid of crime. Their money stays home. Oh, and they do not buy homes or businesses there either. Good luck Minneapolis. You are right it is not a Liberal or conservative thing but it will be a dollars and cents thing. I do not think the press will do that story.

binky, lighten up. unless you’re a ninja, or rambo, this can happen to anyone.

thx!

anyone want some coddling?

Who’s to say one of these douchbags didn’t have a gun on them? Or in the van? Then what?

“What’s meta-flake?“

A flake’s flake, I guess.

Binky, you’re my kinda Minnesotan!

Newsflash: Mr. Pham would have had the greenlight legally to open fire after the first stick hit him.

He was one well aimed brick slam from buying it.

No way would I ever own a restaurant (read: cash available) in those parts of town, with those hours of closing, and not “take care of myself” (be armed).

Well then call me a ninja, or call me rambo, because as deplorable as the situation is, I wouldn’t have let it happen to me.

With a simple degree of situational awareness, and attention to your surroundings and your chances of being victimized like this drop to being nearly non-existent.

If you’ve ever taken any sort of self-defense, they will tell you that when you’re up against more than a few people, even if armed, you’re screwed.

Disagrees

Even with Rambo, the other guys managed to draw first blood.

Binky is my hero.

BTW, big gun show and sale at Bill’s this weekend.

Come on down!

Protect yourself and your loved ones!

Don’t be a victim!

Binky is exactly the kind of guy a gun instructor dreads — the sort who has never been in an actual gunfight, but is absolutely convinced that because he has a gun on him, and has been to the range and can hit a target, he’s a superhero, no matter what the situation, no matter how many attackers.

These heroes end up shooting neighbors by accident every single day. Or accidentally shoot 10-year-olds while having a wild west-type shootout with some terrified teenage stick up man.

I’m not against concealed carry, mind you, but neither am I under the delusion pistols are an easy, or even desirable, solution to street crime.

Well, we found out that Mr. Porter wasn’t such a saint, maybe when all the facts come to light, Mr. pham won’t be either.

Never know.

I’m confused. Now it’s fear that keeps people from going to restaurants/bars in Minneapolis? Last time I read something about a bar closing it was because of the smoking ban.

Good riddance to suburban rubbish. Lets secede from MN! Then we can raid the suburbs! Pillage and plunder ahoy! They are afraid of us!

Here’s one I think we can agree on: 8 people against one lone, weaponless man. These 8 people are cowards.

»» Submitted by asIseeit at 2:15 PM on September 5

Definitely!

I will look forward to seeing their glum faces in the Strib mugshots.

Cowards!

Max, show me one incident of a CCer shooting his neighbor, or any “wild west shootout”.

You can’t.

Those are liberal anti-gun playbook talking points.

Tactical self defense strategies using a handgun must be practiced.

I am guessing Binky is well aware of that.

As am I.

neither am I under the delusion pistols are an easy, or even desirable, solution to street crime

Machine pistols, yes.

Bill’s? The place that sells spices on Lake? They have some cheap prices, I love that place.

Well, next time someone opens fine with an automated weapon in your neighborhood, we’ll see how you feel. I’ve actually been in neighborhoods where there was automated gunfire. You could see the bullet holes in the doors. Pistols are not as discriminating in their targets as some people would like to pretend.

isn’t bills imports a greek guy?

uh-oh, those greek shipping mobs are at it again! importing kalashnikovs
or something!

Back off Binky, Max.

I once saw Binky pull up to a restaurant in his Bentley, which was outfitted with smoke bombs, lasers, and ejection seat. Then a group of ninjas jumped from the roof and circled him.

Unarmed, I jumped behind the potted plants, but could still see what was going on. Innately aware of his surroundings at all times, Binky grabbed his throwing star which was tucked into his sock and hit Ninja 1 in the eye, hence buying him the moment he needed to unholster his gun. It was a black gun, with lots of bullets in it, which is the extent of my gun knowledge. Wouldn’t you know it, but only moments later, Binky had stacked Ninjas 2-8 in a pile outside the restaurant. A gaggle of glamorous women flocked him in hopes that they could kick it with real live action hero.

Needless to say, I felt like a little girlie man hiding behind the plant.

Max, you need to study point shooting.

Bill Gun Shop in Robbinsdale.

How much do you want to bet this is a PR move on his part to get people to support his dying restaurant, Temple?

Poor guy.

Mind you, I find myself siding with Binky on this one, in that possibly the only force multiplier that could have made any difference in Thom Pham’s favor in this attack would have been a gun. Although a lot would depend on how well he was able to maintain his cool during the chase, and whether his attackers were similarly armed, or not.

Still, when shots are fired, it should be almost as good as a 911 call in the Shotspotter range and they’d probably not have stuck around if he had been able to draw a weapon and fire it.

Going from Pham’s injuries these guys weren’t messing around; they could easily have killed him. I hope he recovers quickly.

Cram it, Bud.

(The shooter had a permit.)

I’m with Wayne. I think only Chuck Norris could fend off this kind of attack, armed or barehanded.

(And Uma, naturally.)

What I want to know is how Yosemite Sam broke out of the cartoon to come and post on MNspeak today.

You’ve been attacked by a large group before, Bud? I have. Point shooting isn’t going to help, and there is a really good chance your gun will be taken away and used against you. Here’s an example of a situation in which the victim escaped with what sound like minor injuries, where, if a gun was introduced, he might now be dead.

But go ahead and fantasize about how you would have gotten out of it, guns a-blazing.

It was a black gun,

racist.

That’s called murder, dipshit.

It hardly fits Max’s purported scenarios.

Light rail has killed more Minnesotans than an CC license holder.

Get a grip.

Was going to write “silver gun,” but was worried about being ageist.

Max, my fine friend, no one is fantasizing about anything here, I’m just calling you on your knee jerk anti-gun-isms.

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

cars have killed way more minnesotans than north side thugs!

now what, bud?

“Minor injuries”?

Uh, you sound like a pro-victim victim.

There is a pack of thug / losers who need to be brought to justice here.

Let’s get it done.

Lock and load, MPD!

I wonder if there is a Gun Kata dojo in these parts…

I don’t think anyone is saying that 0 guns 100% of the time is the answer.

Everyone armed 100% of the time is also not the answer. You can’t predict exactly how you will react in the same situation so speculating and acting like a big tuff dude is redonk. Carrying will not get you out of every dangerous scenario and stating, so ignorantly, that it will is double redonk.

This is the kind of downward spiral thread that makes me just want to quit you.

Wow…this has gone waaayyy waaayyy downhill.

When I read Marsh’s account, I’m more of a mind that this was a hate crime against a high-profile gay man…which is even shittier…

I’m pro-gun, Bud. I love them.

aliecat-that is idiotic, to say the least.

Based on what, exactly?

I think what is being misinterpreted is people saying they may make choices that may reduce their odds of being a victim.

That’s all.

Let’s focus on getting this vermin off the streets, and supporting Thom’s business.

Max, my fine friend, no one is fantasizing about anything here, I’m just calling you on your knee jerk anti-gun-isms.

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Actually, I haven’t seen one word roll off Max’s keyboard that is even remotely anti-gun. All he has said is that, in this case, he is of the mind that a gun wouldn’t have helped. And I would tend to agree with him. Firing a pistol accurately from a standing position at a range takes skill. Firing a pistol while on the run from 8 attackers is an impressive feat that I think you’ll find only happens in action flicks and redneck dreams.

Bottom line, it sounds like Pham was targeted. He pulled into the lot, just off a busy street, where he has seen groups of people walking for the last several years Azia has been open, and got jumped. When he tried to run, a van with more people pulled up and cut him off. Even if he had time to pull a gun, there’s far from any guarantee that a group that singled him out specifically for an ass whuppin’ would’ve backed off, especially given the possibility that any one, or more, of them had a gun.

Not to mention the simple fact that when jumped by 8 people, I’d love to see anyone, liberal or conservative, retain the kind of clarity of mind or purpose it would take to react in the way that Binky or Bud proposes.

And feel free to put your money where your mouth is. I’ll be at the range in Robbinsdale on Sunday. Feel free to stop by and give a point shooting demonstration.

sounds like the attack was orchestrated. with that many idiots involved in a planned attack, one of them is bound to slip up and boast about the beating. I give them a week, max, before they spill the beans.

Don’t quit me, Ang! You’re lovely and funny and intelligent!

And cute!

I’m skeptical that this has anything to do with homophobia. If that were the case, wouldn’t the perps almost certainly have been yelling anti-gay stuff?

I’d wager that in one way or another, this comes down to business. Somebody had enough skin in this game to send two carloads of hired guns.

I roll around in a bubble made of bulletproof glass to reduce my odds of becoming a victim. It’s really heavy and I get tired pretty quickly trying to roll it, though, so I usually stay home and watch cop dramas on TV that remind me how dangerous and violent the inner-city is.

Redonk?

munsing may have a point. is it farfetched that there’s money trouble with Temple and someone is calling in a debt?

i’m tellin you, it’s these guys…

hey guys, maybe I’ve been watching the wire to much again lately, but maybe some drug lord owns a bunch of properties around there to launder money and thom’s upscale eateries are gentrifying the area and ruining his plans to get the city to tear down the neighbourhood for a renewal project and pay him off for all the shit property he bought? but since he’s a drug lord and not a legitimate businessman, he can’t take advantage of the slowly rising property values to make his bank. or maybe he’s just impatient because selling drugs is quick money.

Relatives or friends of the two asshats he caught ripping him off.

10-1.

or maybe his restaurants are a front for laundering drug money and he tried to pull out of the game and is getting a beatdown?

or maybe

ok I’ll stop. too much of the wire.

I want to bet zero dollars that it’s a PR move. The dude came thisclose to being killed with a brick. Give me a break.

Maybe I’m a little Pollyanna on this, but does the kind of intrigue everyone’s referring to really happen outside of novels and primetime television?

The dude came thisclose to being killed with a brick.

The 400 Bar has been labeled as a “person of interest” in the assault investigation on Tom Pham.

I want to bet $100 against it being a PR move. I’m going to be rich now.

and not rich g, just monetarily well-to-do.

PR move comment had to be a sick joke. I wish I could say the same for Marsh’s speculation about it being gay related. How many gay bashing crimes are there that go down in a business like non-emotional way by the perps? They would have been shouting homophobic epitaphs. This is a sad event by someone who has opened a great restaurant and revitalized that area. From the actual reports of what happened I seriously doubt gang activity (ruling out the knock out kings as well). If the reports are to be believed it seems highly organized, which would point to some sort of business related motivation. I hope they get to the bottom of this quickly to curb some of the crazy speculation. Marsh should be ashamed for posting his ridiculous speculation.

oh zang.

Maybe I’m a little Pollyanna on this, but does the kind of intrigue everyone’s referring to really happen outside of novels and primetime television?

In bigger and rougher cities, yes. Not so likely here.

It’s not actually possible to watch too much of The Wire.

I don’t know max, re-read my mad musings and tell me I’m not a little deranged. I watched most of season one in a single sitting this weekend. Onto season 2 this week!

I’m getting pumped for season 5.

I know it seems to happen a lot in cop novels set in the Twin Cities…

oh and go back to the real life vs. stories thing:

art imitates life imitates art.

Well, the mention of Greek mobsters earlier upthread will get your primed for season 2 of The Wire.

From the continuously updated Strib article:

He had just arrived in the parking lot of his restaurant, Azia, near 26th St. and Nicollet Ave. S. at about 3:45 a.m. Tuesday when someone grabbed him from behind.

Pham… thought some of his employees were playing a joke on him, as they often do.

Remind me to never _ever_ play a prank on blinkey, bud jr or any of the other “I’d have just shot them all” crowd here.

teucer: redonk = ridiculous in my little world of made up words and such.

How likely are these Law and Order scenarios, really? Poor Thom Pham, maybe speculating on his intrinsic honesty and links to gangsters should be left until more facts are known.

Yeah, we might as well just stuff ourselves with potstickers until we find out more info.

I’ll agree, Teucer, that we ought not delve too deeply into conjecture at this point, and I certainly didn’t mean to suggest that there was anything about Tom’s business that was at the root of this. I know Liz and Tom, and from everything I’ve ever seen, they run a clean, top notch business at Azia.

On the other hand, as more details come out, it appears to me that there is nothing at all random about this, which is what really terrified people about this at first.

If the perps were Asian, then there’s some intrigue.

Thought experiment: you’re a thug, who has, along with some friends, been paid some small number of bucks to beat a guy up, and are preparing to heave a brick at his head. How interested are any of you going to be in seeing what his shooting skills, if any, are if he takes out a pistol? Might you not simply decide to leave, quickly?

FYI world: $10,000 reward is being offered.

mmm, I would kill for some potstickers right now

er, um

I mean I’d really like some

If I was one of eight thugs, I’d probably be more interested in taking that pistol away from that guy. I’d know that there were eight of me and my friends against one surprised dude who likely doesn’t have the Die Hard gun skills a lot of people in this thread think they could pull out during a surprise attack at 4 in the morning.

oh believe me I know. that’s how the idea got into my head in the first place.

Do you think GirlFriday is at his bedside?

There are only two comments in this thread that have any value whatsoever. Half of this thread is fucking lunacy and the other half are people simply responding to the fucking idiots. (In case you didn’t already know.)

What a fucking waste of a thread about Thom Pham and city violence to be brought down by you fucking brainwashed gun lobby talking-point “I’m thinking for myself” lunatics.

Max Sparber is worth a lot more than this bullshit. I think I need to pull an Alexis for awhile and get this off my RSS reader.

If I was one of eight thugs, I’d probably be more interested in taking that pistol away from that guy.

Yup. Happens all the time — on TV shows, where the writer can control what happens.

In real life? Not so much.

If somebody pointed a gun at you, what would you do? Try to take the gun away and assume that the scriptwriter would protect you? Or run?

Joel, even cops have their guns taken away from them and used on them in real life — I had a police instruction manual several years ago that was garishly illustrated with dozens of photos of dead police officers, all killed by their own guns.

It happens.

This “what if he had a gun” convo is really kind of pointless.

Hello???? He didn’t! The end.

Have we been able to positively link this to welfare zombie grafitti yet?

Have an eggroll, s4xton, it’ll make you feel better.

There are only two comments in this thread that have any value whatsoever

aaron…maybe your RSS reader needs a bullshit detector…there’s your chance to build the proverbial better mousetrap and make your forutne.

which 2, by the way. because I thought I had a pretty good one about rules for closing shop at night

Well, I’m not one of eight thugs, so I guess I’ll just drop that train of thought.

“He was driving a car: It wasn’t stolen.
He had a briefcase in his car with money: it wasn’t touched.”

i know a guy pham is doing business with. pham has some shady friends. all i’m saying.

And I made three comments, all of which were valuable.

Late payments for his candy deliveries.

My RSS reader is raising the roof right now cuz daddy made the cut!

would it really be better to have 175 posts that basically say, ‘wow that sucks’ ?

that sucks.

Dezelske: “teucer: redonk = ridiculous in my little world of made up words and such.”

That’s excellent.

that totally sucks.

Aaron, you’ve been a tad crabby lately. Change your rss feed and be happy.

She-she, those potstickers were really good at Azia on Sunday.

Yum.

Too bad the dude got beat. Too bad this happened a mere 500 feet from my apartment. What the hell am I supposed to do now? Move? Never leave the house again? The world is going mad! Abort! Abort! The system will self destruct in T-Minus 30 seconds!

Redonk = short for ridiculous in Cuteoverload’s little world of made up words and such.

No-good, made-up-word-plagarising thief!

Forsaking Cuteoverload to benefit your own image as a clever wordsmith is the worst karma ever.

I hope your nightmares are haunted by scores of baby animals and hamsters.

I love the pan fried veggie potstickers. Christine and She-She, did you know they are only 5 bucks at happy hour? Azia’s happy hour is SO GOOD!

That’s it!

I’m totally going to Azia tonight.

Get there before 6 or after 10 and you’re in happy hour city!

You’re missing the point; cops have different issues than civilians do — they’re demonstrably much more likely to have their guns taken away and used against them, for the obvious reasons. (They’re also much more likely to miss when they shoot at somebody, ditto.)

I can’t believe how sad this is.

Why can’t people who DESERVE it get their asses beat?
God damn it……seriously. (And you hippies can just shut it about ‘no one’ should have their asses beat. TONS of people deserve to).

I think it was the relatives/friends of the dine n’ dashers.

Let’s not jump to the conclusion that it wasn’t a hate crime, either.
He’s a successful, high-profile gay Asian man.

I hope he is OK. Poor dude. Really, my heart is just broken about this.

I’m with the rest of you, we’ll definitely be eating at one or more of his fine establishments this weekend.

And you hippies can just shut it about ‘no one’ should have their asses beat. TONS of people deserve to.

Oh, Bx. I’ve been called hippie, crunchy, nerd, a bunch of derogatory names, among others, and I agree with you that there are a lot of people that deserve to get beat down, but karma seems to have different ideas than yours and mine so have faith that the guys who did this will get what they deserve.

I’m now off to Azia for dinner. Yum!

Christine, I think until a month ago either 2 feet or 502 feet away from each other. Crazy couple months in the Whittier Neighborhood huh?

Could any of this have anything to do with the few rumored or not so rumored additional establishments Mr. Pham was going to open but now isn’t?

This just doesn’t feel like typical street crime (though it would make a good Kung Fu movie.) There has to be a good revenge ending if I remember correctly.

Let’s not jump to the conclusion that it wasn’t a hate crime, either.
He’s a successful, high-profile gay Asian man.

Well, I’m glad it’s not just Marsh and I that think this is a more plausible explanation than a Minneapolis Mob hit (seriously?).

Why can’t people who DESERVE it get their asses beat?

Because it’s against the law.

The written law, maybe.

But not the natural law.

I’m a liberal, but not a hippie, and I think these dillholes deserve either a beatdown or a little time in state prison with a guy who hasn’t seen his girl in about 15 years…

Oh and as for using a gun with a clear head, I wonder how clearly you’d be thinking after being clocked in the bean with a brick…jus’ sayin’

“If I was one of eight thugs, I’d probably be more interested in taking that pistol away from that guy. “

Yeah, but the conversation would go like this:

“You take it away from him.”

“No, you do it.”

“Uh uh. It’s your turn to grab the gun.”

“Nope. It’s your turn.”

“I remember I grabbed it last time.”

“Nope, that was Jake.”

“Oh, you make this shit up as fast as you need it.”

“Uh uh. Ask Jake.”

“Yeah, right. How am I gonna ask Jake?! Jake’s dead, you assh . . . . oh, yeah. . . . Okay, who’s up for hitting White Castle instead.

or a little time in state prison with a guy who hasn’t seen his girl in about 15 years…
I wonder how clearly you’d be thinking after being clocked in the bean with a brick…jus’ sayin’

Nice, Alie!

Wait, bobby_b there would probably be an addition to the convo about not using real names — dead or not.

I always think the “if I was there and had a gun… ” convos are puffed up nonsense as my guess is that if you really were in this situation where you had to think quickly on your feet – especially being outnumbered — and you having not been in this situation before would end differently than you think and not as good for you as you think…. I think.

The written law, maybe.

The written law, certainly. The one we’re supposed to live by.

I dunno, Cat. If I’d been there, I would have had a gun with me — I pretty much always carry in public — and I’d have whipped out . . .

. . . . my cell phone and dialed 911 as fast as my stubby little fingers could have, while walking away. Eight guys I don’t know beating up on one guy I don’t know? Sounds like a horrible problem, but it’s not my problem.

That said, I’ve actually been unfortunate enough to have to have a gun handy on more than one occasion, and it hasn’t worked out badly — all in all, it worked out well by comparison to what almost certainly would have happened otherwise. But only by comparison; I’d prefer to have skipped it.

My bad, didn’t mean to imply I made the word up.

Wow.

I knew the Metrobloggers were lame, but they just sunk to an entirely new low level.

Jesus fucking Christ.

Joel: I read your cred and you don’t count. You’re an instructor with years of training and I noticed that teaching safety is a focus of your classes.

There are a number of people who carry, who are responsible and are trained in handling weapons, but they seem, like you, to be level-headed, logical and TRAINED. On the flipside, it’s the people who scream they have the right to shoot anyone who’s thinking of harming them that scare me as they seem a little too ready to shoot.

Cat, thanks for the praise, but, really, I’m just a guy. On the other hand, as just a guy, I’ve had a fair amount of contact with folks who want to carry handguns for personal protection — I’m teaching two classes this week — and, yup, I find that the “keen eye for the obvious” portion of the class (how avoiding a confrontation in the first place is a much bigger win than “winning” it with a handgun is) is not only easily taught but always welcomed.

Safety? You bet. But I’m not unusual in that; it’s pretty bog-standard.

In fact, a large part of what I do is encourage people to get in touch with their inner coward. (We always end up discussing what to do if one is unlucky enough to be around for, say, a robbery at the SuperAmerica, and I always explain that I don’t know about anybody else, but “I’ll be crouching down behind the frozen foods like the coward that I am.”)

That said, yup, a lot of folks have loose mouths, and seem – emphasis intentional — eager to shoot somebody. But, in the real world, most folks who carry a handgun will never take it out “for serious,” and those folks who have been unlucky enough to have to are very unlikely to shoot. I know one of the pro-gun posters on this thread from another context, and understand why he might seem, on brief internet acquaintance, to come across as looking for an opportunity to shoot somebody, but he really isn’t.

Which is why when you read about a shooting in the newspaper, you’re vanishingly unlikely to find that it was a permit holder. Far as I know, while there’ve been many gun defenses by permit holders, there’ve been a total of two times in Minnesota, since carry reform passed, that a permit holder has shot at somebody; one was clearly murder — Zach Ourada is now spending his life in prison for the murder; the (now former) HennCo sheriff should have never given him a permit, given his history — and the other pretty clearly proper self-defense (Martin S. Treptow, who shot at and wounded a road-raging driver who was pointing a gun at his wife; Treptow was released the next day, and given back his permit).

The big difference between me and most other permit holders is that I’m a writer by trade, and I’ve got better skills at expressing myself than most folks do. Well, that, and that I’ve got less hair than the average.

Getting back to the point — at last, eh? — there’s no way to know what would have happened if, when jumped, Thom Pham had produced a handgun, but what happens most often in such circumstances is that the attackers simply run away.

That said, folks get to do what they choose to; I’m not in favor of legally mandating that gay restauranteurs of Asian extraction — or anybody else — be forced to get carry permits; I am strongly in favor of folks thinking the issues through and deciding for themselves what makes sense for them.

Oh, shut up, you two.

This is about a brutally violent attack on a pretty nice local guy who didn’t deserve it. NOT about your personal views on gun concealment laws.

Take your tiny penises out of each other’s mouths and find a different place to debate your tiny penises. I mean, guns.

Bx, you might find, should you achieve some small measure of wisdom at some point later in life, that the best way to encourage a thread you wish to go away to actually to continue is to tell folks engaged in it to shut up; adding fodder by exposing — so to speak — your own Freudian problems only makes it more likely.

Bullseye!

Bx is down.

Well played.

Oh, blow it out your kugelberg, you old windbag.

Anyone see the news reports with Thom last night? He looked pretty chipper for someone who just went through what he went through.

They were saying his own night cleaning crew wouldn’t let him in to the restaurant because his head was so bloody and swollen. They didn’t recognize him.

I hope they figure out who it was.

Joel…just curious….do you disarm yourself when confronted with a This Establishment Bans Guns” sign, or do you just avoid such establishments?

Nope, bud, still here. Sorry to disappoint you.

(And you hippies can just shut it about ‘no one’ should have their asses beat. TONS of people deserve to).

I’m probably one of the people you’d call a hippie, but I totally agree some people deserve to be beaten silly with a sack full of doorknobs. I may even be one of those people.

Grote, with one exception, I avoid such establishments as much as I can, and don’t think I’ve been in one in at least three years (it’s why I’ve never been to Azia — my family and I were going to go, one evening, but we saw the signs and went elsewhere); in that one exception, I disarm, not out of compliance with the law — there’s no legal reason to, particularly — but out of respect for the owners. (I only do business there because my younger kid took shelter there during a storm; I don’t feel right about either completely avoiding the place, or violating their posted wishes, as foolish as I think those wishes are.)

wayne…you’re just angry and delusional (but in a good way), not a hippie. of course you want to watch people get their asses beat.

I don’t want to see it, I just want to know the right people had it done to them. Possibly including myself, which I guess I’d have to see.

Sack full of doorknobs!!!!!

Usually a reference to a heavier woman’s backside.

Joel: I truly appreciate your insight and though we will most likely always sit on opposite sides of this issue, it’s refreshing to have a civil conversation regarding a pretty emotional topic without being told I’m an idiot for my opinion or called other names for a differing viewpoint.

And your last two paragraphs:
Getting back to the point — at last, eh? — there’s no way to know what would have happened if, when jumped, Thom Pham had produced a handgun, but what happens most often in such circumstances is that the attackers simply run away.

That said, folks get to do what they choose to; I’m not in favor of legally mandating that gay restauranteurs of Asian extraction — or anybody else — be forced to get carry permits; I am strongly in favor of folks thinking the issues through and deciding for themselves what makes sense for them.

Well said. TP chose a different route of self-defense (Judo) and in his case it did not serve him well. It sounds as if TP realizes he was targeted, but for what reasons he is not speculating.

Let’s hope that there are no long term physical issues for TP and I wish him a speedy recovery.

Cat, you sound like you are a willing-victim-person.

Good luck with that.

Bud: not at all, I see self-defense differently than you is all.

My dad was a cop and a long line of law enforcement on my dad’s side. Growing up with this perspective and having drilled into my head that I should know how to use a gun, and I do; I’ve chosen other alternatives for self-defense.

You say victim and I say that guns are not the only means of protection.

Go back to your cartoon, Yosemite Sam. Elmer Fudd might be interested in your, “Bang, bang! Get them varmits!” bullshit, but I can assure you that nobody here is.

what?

(oh, that “what?” was directed at bud. but Cat settled it.)

Right, I typed it before I saw Cat’s (more diplomatic) response.

ROTFL

LOL

SERIOUSLY LULZ

Tara, that was funny as shit!

Dayum!

Hahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaa

I don’t tend to take self protection advice from white belter chiclets.

Well, then stop offering your methods of self protection on everyone else…jeeze, you already are able to conceal and carry, what more do you want from those of us who CHOOSE not to carry guns.

what more do you want from those of us who CHOOSE not to carry guns.

To have an open mind when we choose to carry. To stop condeming us as paranoid without knowing our reasons to carry. To stop trying (or at least speak out against those who are trying to) repeal the RTC laws. I’m not saying you are among that crowd, but, ya know…

*****
As for myself, I never did say that drawing would be my first choice… what I said is that it’s an amazing thing that a person can find themselves in a situation where fight or flight is necessary.

If I was pulling in to a parking lot at 3:30 am in an urban (even suburban in some cases) environment, I’m going to be scanning 360 well before I even turn the engine off. If I see someone who looks like they might have less than altruistic motives, I won’t be getting out of my vehicle.

If it *looks* like I’m driving into an ambush situation (is that too “Rambo” a term, or can we at least agree that what happened to Thom Pham was nothing short of an ambush?) I’ll keep right on driving.

The example I give is one of the absolute worst case scenario, one that I hope I never find myself in, despite what some of you may think.

Don’t bring an Iphone to a beat down.

Does that make sense to you?

To have an open mind when we choose to carry. To stop condeming us as paranoid without knowing our reasons to carry. To stop trying (or at least speak out against those who are trying to) repeal the RTC laws. I’m not saying you are among that crowd, but, ya know…

Binky – to use your words and look at the other side:
To have an open mind when we choose to not carry. To stop condeming us as victims without knowing our reasons to not carry. To stop trying (or at least speak out against those who are trying to) repeal the RTC laws - this I make no promises. I’m not saying you are among that crowd, but, ya know…

People get used to their surroundings and let their guard down – more times than not, nothing happens. As a female living in the city, I’m always aware of my surroundings, but sometimes crap happens in spite of how aware and prepared we are. You ask us to be open minded and yet you judged Thom for somehow “letting” this happen to him. Was he caught off guard? Yes. Would he have escaped harm if he had been doing his “360 viewing and had a gun?” Total supposition on anyone’s part.

To stop trying (or at least speak out against those who are trying to) repeal the RTC laws – this I make no promises.

I’m not trying to force you to carry; are you saying you’re trying to force me not to have the right?

“Go back to your cartoon, Yosemite Sam. Elmer Fudd might be interested in your, “Bang, bang! Get them varmits!” bullshit, but I can assure you that nobody here is.“

Nobody?

In an earlier life, working in some high-risk areas, I was robbed several times by guys with guns, guys with big kitchen knives, guys with bats, and guys with a bunch of other guys all of whom looked like their normal breakfast consisted of guys like me and maybe some juice.

I’m not there anymore, and I don’t choose to go there now, but if I still had to work that job, or just live in that area, I’m fairly sure I’d have a permit and a pistol. The simple defenses that come to mind when people here say they can handle trouble without a gun – run away, martial arts, mace, airhorn, passively hand $$ over, whatever – simply don’t work in the most threatening situations. I did once have a gun in my pocket during one of those incidents, and I pulled it out in response to a knife ten feet away from me, and the guy ran out the door. Causing him to fear staying was what worked. Had it been unloaded, but its sight made the guy hesitate and back up enough so I could run out the only door, it would have accomplished its purpose, which is to instill fear in someone instilling fear.

I know B invites this kind of reaction with his delicate phrasing and his overly-sensitive concern for feelings, but isn’t your reaction (funny as it was) sort of what Maz does that you say annoys you? The completely self-righteous and ridiculing ad hominim “only-idiots-say-that” critique? B’s present approach is driven, I’m guessing, by the “guns are carried by the small-penised neanderthals who tired of beating their women by hand” theme usually set out here. Again, when you’re outnumbered by people who dismiss your view that insultingly, concern for their sensibilities probably drops.

Bobby, I (and I’m sure many other liberals on the board) am actually pro-concealed carry. What I am not for is people throwing their machismo “If I were there, I would have whipped out my GUN and then those punks would have known just who they were messin’ wit’!” crap. I mean seriously, Bud seems to think he’s living in a Die Hard movie. It’s cartoonish and comical to spout such nonsense. Others on the board have made a good argument for concealed carry and responsible gun ownership, but Bud calling anybody who doesn’t carry a gun a “willing victim”? Give me a freaking break.

I don’t know the exact approval percentage of those people who applied for CC permits before the recent liberalization law was passed, but I know it was high. I’m thinking just about anyone who wanted one and could present a reasonable case could get one.

but Bud calling anybody who doesn’t carry a gun a “willing victim”? Give me a freaking break.

Actually, I find that people who refuse to give into this desire to carry concealed weapons brave in another way. I think it’s brave to say, I won’t do this. I’m not going down this road.

I’m thinking just about anyone who wanted one and could present a reasonable case could get one.

Well, that’s not the case. The problem with the old law was that it was left to the descretion of the county sheriff or city police chief as to who got a license. In St. Paul, if you weren’t friends with Corky Finney, you didn’t get a permit. Period. Corky’s a big gun control advocate and he didn’t want anybody walking around his town with a gun.

Other jurisdictions were much more reasonable. But the bottom line was, there was no consistent standard from one town or county to the next as to who got a permit and who didn’t.

That’s what all the advocates of the law wanted to fix. It wasn’t about “not enough people have guns,” like the dishonest opponents claimed. It was about making the standards and criteria consistent across the state.

You know, like the smoking ban advocates said was absolutely imperative for their stupid little cause to work. Consistency across the state.

“I don’t know the exact approval percentage of those people who applied for CC permits before the recent liberalization law was passed, but I know it was high. I’m thinking just about anyone who wanted one and could present a reasonable case could get one.“

Nope. Damn near impossible unless you were a sworn officer, or butt-buddies with the chief or the CA or the Shurff. And, when they said no, there were no standards you could point to to say “hey, see, I qualify”, and so no possible appeal.

“Cat, thanks for the praise, but, really, I’m just a guy.“

Joel. Buddy.

We need to talk.

“Just a guy”?

C’mon. The apotheosis of the species following two million years of human development, the only gender brave enough for external genitalia, and the impetus for home delivery of beer, “just a guy”?

Some words should never be seen together.

The problem with the old law was that it was left to the descretion of the county sheriff or city police chief as to who got a license.

I heard percentages as high as 93. More than 9 out of 10 who wanted a permit got one.

It was about making the standards and criteria consistent across the state.

Do you think I was born yesterday, Maz?

I heard percentages as high as 93. More than 9 out of 10 who wanted a permit got one.

You’re missing my point. I doesn’t matter if it was 99 out of 100 if the 100th person was turned down for an arbitrary reason.

How would you like it if they handed out drivers licenses the same way? And 999 out of 1000 people who applied got their license, but the 1000th person didn’t because some bureaucrat said, “sorry, that’s our quota for the month. You don’t get one.”

And driving isn’t even a constitutionally protected right!

How would you like it if they handed out drivers licenses the same way?

You take a test to get drivers license. It’s not arbitrary. Don’t be ridiculuous.

And driving isn’t even a constitutionally protected right!

And you can get a weapon, unless you’re felon or something. That’s NRA crap hyperbole. The lengths to which this issue is demagogued is staggering.

Why should this country have to endure a murder rate that is significantly higher than most of the industrialized world so Le Pierre and the rest his of his minions buy off politicians for have their little Constitutional Circle Jerk?

I think it’s strange that Joel is a weapons trainer, yet seems to have this strange aversion to using the weapons. If he’s still around I’d like to find out what his issues are.

I found this disturbing: (We always end up discussing what to do if one is unlucky enough to be around for, say, a robbery at the SuperAmerica, and I always explain that I don’t know about anybody else, but “I’ll be crouching down behind the frozen foods like the coward that I am.”)

He kind of reminds me of the character played by Robert Vaughn in The Magnificant Seven. No offense, Joel. But I would suggest you just leave your weapon at home, since you obviously have no intention of ever using it … even if it’s to save someone’s life. Why bother carrying it around?

I think you misread Joel.

I don’t know him, never met him, but I’ve been reading his CC blog for some time, and will probably end up taking one of his classes. I think his approach, and his philosophy, is exactly right. I value the abstract right to keep and arm bears mostly because it’s in the Constitution, and also because I’ve been in situations where I really wished I had a gun in hand. Having said that, though, I fear weapons in the hands of rambos.

I’d like every skag who might feel like robbing someone tonight to have an accurate, reasonable fear that the percentage of people carrying weapons in a typical city on a typical night is high enough to make that robbery attempt statistically stoopid – that his chances of being shot are simply too high.

But I want that to be accomplished by putting guns in the hands of quiet, reasonable, contemplative, life-valuing people who have the sense of proportion to understand that their proper role is to deter or end the crime, and not to deliver punishment for it. The people to whom I’d entrust the responsibility of the guns would likely be hiding behind the freezer unless it was exactly the correct time to use the gun. Over there, next to Joel, and me. (I’ll be the one with the wet spot on my pants.)

Why should this country have to endure a murder rate that is significantly higher than most of the industrialized world so Le Pierre and the rest his of his minions buy off politicians for have their little Constitutional Circle Jerk?

Because that’s the price of a free society.

c’mon Dennis, make up your mind. Cowboy or Indian?

Guess that’s freedom of a sort.

Setting aside the whole debate over gun laws and which makes who more safe…

Is freedom from personal harm not a freedom you’re interested in, Maz? Because from that last comment, I would guess not.

Is freedom from personal harm not a freedom you’re interested in, Maz?

There is no freedom from personal harm.

heh. I got no cool Indian flicks.

The two best lines from that scene:

“I hear you’re a low-down yankee liar.”

and .. the best one:

“And mother wants you! I know she does!”

heh

But I want that to be accomplished by putting guns in the hands of quiet, reasonable, contemplative, life-valuing people who have the sense of proportion to understand that their proper role is to deter or end the crime, and not to deliver punishment for it.

I suppose that’s the civilized approach. I guess I was too thoroughly conditioned in the military to shoot in response to a threat without pause or much analysis.

If I was in that SA, I would, out of training, which is now instinct, raise my weapon with no hesitation. I guess I’m nothing but a wild savage after all. But then, you knew that.

“ I guess I’m nothing but a wild savage after all. But then, you knew that.“

Just guessing, I’d picture you as the guy, after all this commenting, who’d look up at the 15-year-old robber who’s shaking and scared shitless and talk him out of his gun. Once you see his face, while you probably wouldn’t let him walk out with the money, you’d not likely shoot him down. And I think that’s part of what Joel meant.

You and me both.

Cat said it best about people who don’t wish to carry a gun as not wanting to be labeled a victim…

Also, I guess I’m just not of a mind that a gun is the almighty great equalizer in all situations, but I support the right to bear arms, I just prefer the arms I bear are the ones attached to my shoulders…

The scenario that haunts me is of the woman from Texas, who had taken her elderly parents to lunch at the local steak house. Two robbers came in and started firing indiscriminately. People dove under tables, including her and her parents. One of the gunman came up to her overturned table and shot both her parents dead, along with a few other patrons.

They ran out of the resteraunt and have never been apprehended. As she tearfully told this story to the state legislature during their hearings into new a liberalized cc law, she mentioned that what haunted her to this day is that the smith & wesson that she normally carried was in her car. Texas law said she couldn’t bring it inside.

Today, she could.

the scenario that haunts me is my parents one day being old, half-blind, toothless and in diapers nagging me to take them to the OCB

Wild savages, that is.

maz…you’re more mild geezer than wild savage. you’re a legend in your own mind.

whippersnapper

I’m not trying to force you to carry; are you saying you’re trying to force me not to have the right? Nope.

Binky, this is what you wrote:
To stop trying (or at least speak out against those who are trying to) repeal the RTC laws
I make no promises to stop anyone from trying to repeal the RTC laws. Not that I would actively try to stop you.

I used to be adamantly opposed to conceal & carry, but I see my family members who are very responsible gun owners (some carry) and I know there are others out there who take guns very seriously; Joel is a good example. I also know there are people whose bravado scares me enough to think they shouldn’t be allowed to carry. There are too many variables for me to think that there are many people who are level-headed and trained enough to be responsible, but I’m not omnipotent so I choose what’s right for me: not to carry. This somehow puts me in the category as “victim” if I’m not carrying. How is this open-minded and not condemning?

Originally re: Thom’s beat down, it wasn’t about To Carry or Not To Carry; it was about whether Thom having a gun would have kept him from getting beat — and I don’t know the answer to that. My opposition is to those who are certain they’ll respond one way with the outcome in their favor when there is no way of knowing until the incident occurs.

Maz: you see Joel’s views as “aversion” and I see it as a smart and responsible way of teaching those who have little or no experience with handling guns. You have the background of serving and training in the military. You know what happens with irresponsible gun handling. There are a lot of people who have never had your training, experience nor your instinct.

Even skilled shooters hit the wrong targets. In wartime, there are considerable civilian casualties and deaths by friendly fire. Cops sometimes accidentally shoot other cops. It’s like in the movie Magic Hunter: Five bullets go where you want them to, and the sixth goes where the devil wants it to.

Anyone who is glib about the possible unintended damage of a firefight, and convinced that they somehow, unique among all people, can hit exactly the target they want, whenever they want, whatever the circumstances, is exactly the sort of person who should not be carrying a gun.

I think it’s strange that Joel is a weapons trainer, yet seems to have this strange aversion to using the weapons. If he’s still around I’d like to find out what his issues are.

It’s not complicated. Rosenberg’s Fourth Law: “If you’re not willing to risk spending ten grand that you don’t have and a couple of years in prison that you’d prefer not to, don’t consider taking your handgun out; if you are, then you have other issues to think about.”

If I happen to be unlucky enough to be around for a robbery at a SuperAmerica, I’m not interested in risking spending ten cents saving SuperAmericaCorp from losing what’s in the register; I’m very interested in not risking spending a minute in jail over that, either. SuperAmerica didn’t hire me as a professional bodyguard and/or cop, and not just because I’m not either a professional bodyguard and/or cop.

As to the clerk, well, statistically, most robberies don’t end up with the clerk being murdered; if this one is, there’s probably nothing I can do about it (sure, I can reliably do the “hostage rescue” shot at the range, in good lighting, with only paper involved and nothing riding on it except, maybe, a few bucks on a bet; I probably can’t do it under stress, and we’re never going to find out for sure over some SuperAmerica robbery), and, even if he is, well, I don’t know the guy.

Probably a nice guy, buys his Mom flowers on Mothers Day, treats his girlfriend, boyfriend and/or dog and/or cat real well, too, but I didn’t sign on to be his (or her) bodyguard.

Good citizen that I am, I’m perfectly willing to call 911 as soon as the perp is out the door and not going to shoot me over spoiling his fun, but that’s about as far as it goes.

Change the rules a bit, and the perp’s trying to drag my kid into the car as a hostage, and I’ve got other issues to think about. I like my kids a fair amount, and even on days when I’m not too fond of them, I’ve signed up for responsibilities. To them; not the rest of the world.

Some guy that I don’t know having a gun pointed at him? Sorry; not my problem — I’m busy investigating how much metal and frozen stuff I can get in between me and the perp.

So, maybe I whip out my gun and the perp throws down his gun and throws up his hands and I get to feel all great and heroish? It might work out that way, and it might not, but what are the cops going to think as they roll up and see, through the front door, me pointing my gun at some guy with his hands up. Is there some way that might go badly for me, just maybe?

We’ll never know for sure; I’m not interested in trying the experiment.

If other folks are interested in playing hero, that’s fine with me — as long as I’m not around, it’s not my problem.

That said, I respect the clerk’s right to carry to protect himself or herself, and would happily put him through class — in fact, last year, Rothman, Shapero, and I put the two Iraqi immigrant brothers whose family runs a bunch of stop-and-robs through a carry class after one had successfully fought off a knife-wielding robber.

(No charge; it was too much fun to think of three Jews arranging for two Arabs to be able to carry guns to protect themselves — what a country, eh? )

I do have a T-shirt with a big yellow S on the front of it, but it’s just a t-shirt; it wasn’t woven from blankets that were in the rocket with me when my folks blasted me off from Krypton, as, well, it’s “Joel”, not “Kal-El”, and I’m not bulletproof.

If anybody’s unhappy with any or all of the above, that’s fine with me. Free country, and all.

Maz: you see Joel’s views as “aversion” and I see it as a smart and responsible way of teaching those who have little or no experience with handling guns.

Respectfully, Cat, I’ll disagree with that last — my pitch is exactly the same to folks with lots and lots and lots of experience handling firearms. The ex-spook who shot a smiley face during his qualification (pinky swear!) got the same discouragement from playing hero as the nice guy from England who had never so much as touched a firearm in his life before he took his beginner class from me, and both of them saw the point.

Joel whens your next class in the eastern suburb. I want to take it.

I am amazed at the contortions of the liberals here.

The blatant misrepresentation of statements and viewpoints when they do not happen to fit their “feel good ” agendas.

I am amazed at the contortions of the liberals here.

perhaps the biggest disingenuous lie in the history of MNSpeak. thanks bud.

Maz writes: He kind of reminds me of the character played by Robert Vaughn in The Magnificant Seven. No offense, Joel.

None taken; I can hardly be offended at being accused of being a coward when I explicitly say that I am. I don’t see the similarity, myself, except for the cowardice part — Lee, Robert Vaughn’s character, was willing to die heroically for people he didn’t know. That’s definitely not on my list of things to do. (The Robert Vaughn character was also a bit faster on the draw than I am, but that’s just a quibble; he had the scriptwriter on his side.)

Love the movie, though.

108: my course schedule is always here.