Secrets of the City

Strawman, false premise alert.

Good link, but the dramaqueen and self indulgent stuff around it?

The only thing we learned from this piece is that the writers know nothing about project management, cost management or risk management.

But they do know what type of reaction they would get with that misleading headline.

“Starve”? New Light rail, money going to a train to St. Cloud, bike trails and walking trails from here to everywhere ($20 million from the last Fed highway bill alone in MN), $25 million to something called the “Non-motorized Transportation Pilot Program in Minneapolis-St. Paul”, $60 million to a “Union Depot Multimodal Transit Facility”, plus these items, all pulled from what was supposed to be roads money:

# University of Minnesota ($16 million)

# Recreational visitor center in Virginia, MN ($1.3 million)

# Bike trail construction along TH 11 ($540,000)

# Construct bicycle and pedestrian trails in Cuyuna Recreation Area ($700,000)

# Heritage Center at the Grand Portage National Monument ($1.4 million)

These are all big piles of money taken away from the DOT in the last big highway bill and earmarked for someone’s pet project. This beast ain’t starved – we vote tons of bucks for it every session, then someone slips a pile out for “important stuff” (helps to have connections, I guess), and then points to the shrunken pile and bellows about greedy people starving beasts. It’s not greed that keeps me, at least, from sending in more – it’s the belief that I have no duty to spend until you think it’s enough, ‘cuz that’ll never happen.

Is biking through Oberstarland worth all the pain that you figuratively held in your hands?

This is the makings of yet another horrible MNspeak thread.

I don’t make it a habit of defending the bureaucracy. But these professionals, engineers and managers are being unfairly criticized by people who have no idea what they’re talking about.

Naw. I’m done.

But, you can see from the title it’s going to go political, so it’s easy to avoid if you so desire.

I would urge the MNspeak editors to not publish posts that take an editorial position on news stories, rather letting the story be part of the daily links or having the post simply preview what the story is about.

But good job to those who pointed out that the beast isn’t exactly starved right now, after a three billion dollar budget expansion this year. Never let the facts get in the way of a good emotional plea.

Having RTFA, even I am forced to call bullshit on this.

Next time you throw something in quotes and link it, at least have the common courtesy to see that the quote is actually in the article linked.

The post and thread may be crap, once the Buds and Dizz and Raindog get in the thread at least it’ll be entertaining.

“Having RTFA . . .“

It’s brave to admit this right up front, as there’s still a huge stigma attached to the disease, (human-equine relations not being entirely accepted yet), but I’m puzzled what better insight having it can give you about the bridge article.

This is the makings of yet another horrible MNspeak thread.

Hee.

I would urge the MNspeak editors to not publish posts that take an editorial position on news stories, rather letting the story be part of the daily links or having the post simply preview what the story is about.

MNspeak Editor == Elvis

Thank you. Thank you very much.

Good link, but the dramaqueen and self indulgent stuff around it?

*Oh Snap*

This is the makings of yet another horrible MNspeak thread.

And with that, I’m going back to my Bells Pale Ale and watching “Diary of a Mad Black Woman.”

I’ve been posting here for awhile. Haven’t seen a horrible threat yet.

Sharp, pointed opinions? — sure. Who’s scared of that?

I would urge the MNspeak editors to not publish posts that take an editorial position on news stories, rather letting the story be part of the daily links or having the post simply preview what the story is about.

What the Sam Hill is this person talking about?

Max is scared of that.

Please, stay calm.

I urge everyone not to make any sudden moves or express opinions outside the “gray zone” of safety.

If you feel a terse one-liner coming on, just lick some cardboard and hum along to Barry Manilow’s Mandy.

And don’t forget about Jesus, Chuck…pray to Jeebus before you comment…

Stay calm about what? I don’t even see this thread.

It’s all those shrooms, Teuce…

teucer – please note, shrooms often taste like cardboard but they are NOT the same thing.

After I RTFA, I concluded that MnDOT took a calculated risk. They had no way knowing that the bridge was is any imminent danger of collapse. However, it will be tragically ironic if, in the end, one of the truss supports that cracked (should that be determined to be the cause) was one of the handful that didn’t get inspected before the bridge repair work began this summer.

Can you fault MnDOT for a calculated risk? Six of one; half-dozen of another. We all make calculated risks everyday. It’s just the enormity of the resulting collapse that brings into question the motives and repercussions of MnDOT’s decision to forego a complete repair or replacement of the bridge.

How many here would be screaming to high heaven if MnDOT had instead condemned the bridge? Or had risked a future collapse by installing the reinforcement plates?

Can you fault MnDOT for a calculated risk?

I think someone made a judgement call. If they truly felt the bridge was in imminent dange of collapse, they would have shut it down in 5 minutes.

Risk analysis is more sophisticated than just being a “judgement call.” Because these are professional project managers, they did a qualitative analysis, a quantitative analysis, they did risk response planning, contingency plans, and fall-back plans for each of the risks.

The problem was that their project, thorough inspection of the bridge, conflicted with another project for that bridge, repaving, so they had to defer the completion of the inspection until after the repaving … and the bridge fell before they had the chance to resume. Once this investigation is complete, it’ll be the primary case study in my project management course.

teucer – please note, shrooms often taste like cardboard but they are NOT the same thing.

ROFL

“Six of one; half-dozen of another.“

Ha. Please do some basic research before you try to impress people here with your faux-quantitative drivel. Had you done even just a bit of checking before throwing out your “oh look at me I know math” throwaway phrase, you’d've found that “six” is the exact same thing as “half-dozen.”

It’s the little things that trip you pseudo-hipsters up, but they always do.

(Okay, now the serious part.)

“It’s just the enormity of the resulting collapse that brings into question the motives and repercussions of MnDOT’s decision to forego a complete repair or replacement of the bridge.“

To be fair, (speaking as one who’s done weld inspections, magged joints and bends, hung upside down from a crane harness peering into small enclosed spaces high above the ground looking for cracks or failed fasteners or just an easier job, and who thus knows that, despite the best of efforts, sometimes shite occurs), you normally factor in the enormity of the worst possible outcome when cranking through the “calculated risk” analysis. The risk you rationally take when “worst-case” means something coasts gently to a stop with no humans around is different than when it means something crashes down 60 feet while covered with humans driving multi-ton vehicles at 50-70 mph.

An acceptable “calculated risk” when the issue is whether to paint that sign now or wait five years is pretty loose, because, worst case, you end up sanding off more rust. The acceptable risk on high people-supporting structure is much lower.

That said, I’m agreeing with you on the important part; we can scream “the bastards let money enter the equation!”, but, in reality, we do that in most every operation in this world. X number of people die every year – way more than on our bridge – because we don’t spend the money to make intersections less intersectiony. X number die because cars, which really could be made to be much more safe, aren’t, for cost (and price) considerations. X number die because we don’t completely rope off every cliff. Bottom line is, MnDOT was ready to reinforce every joint plate that needed it, and was making ready to do so when the same people who recommended the reinforcement came back and said, uh, wait, something just occurred to us, DON’T DRILL THOSE HOLES!

I don’t know where is going, but I can’t say that because other projects received funding a bridge on I35W collapsed.

And it always seems to be projects that you or bobby don’t particularly support.

“I don’t know where is going, but I can’t say that because other projects received funding a bridge on I35W collapsed.“

You can’t agree that high-load, high-flex steel structure needs constant inspection and maintenance and repair, and that those things cost money, and that if you buy other stuff with that money, the engineers and steel and cranes don’t just show up for free? Or is it your point that it’s the money that should’ve just kept showing up – that there’s no moral failure in skimping on mass safety because you’ve bought your congressthing a pretty new showcase for his next election; the moral failure is in not sending more money once we saw that the first batch got derailed? If I give you ten bucks to get your kid’s car seat fixed, and you run out and buy another chrome nose ring instead, I’m not going to react well when you tell me, after your accident, that your kid is hurt because I was too cheap to help you fix your kid’s car seat.

“And it always seems to be projects that you or bobby don’t particularly support. “

That’s because we know so much stuff. They should listen to us more.

(Alternate answer: Speaking for me, that’s because I’m a big infrastructure guy from way back, from past jobs, skills, experiences, etc., and have spent the last decade watching as the money that we’ve NOT spent on the boring stuff gets spent, instead, on those projects I see as vanity plays on OPM.)

Check out the poster’s profile. He’s an A-RAB. He has no vested interest in the success of our way of life.
»» Submitted by Real American at 9:58 PM on August 19

I’m amazed that fuckers like this even know how to use the Internet.

“I’m amazed that fuckers like this even know how to use the Internet.“

Don’t think “stupid Alabama potato farmer who happens to spell A-RAB just like he mispronounces it.”

Instead, consider what picture this person might be painting for you, and work, from there, to “what kind of person is this?”

I don’t know where is going, but I can’t say that because other projects received funding a bridge on I35W collapsed.

I can. Government grew by 3 billion this year (without raising a single tax), someone had to make a decision where that 3 billion dollars went. But oh – you whine – if he had only raised the gas tax. Sorry, that only flies among the true moonbats. Where did the bulk of the three billion dollars go? Where? Anybody? Not schools, they’re still begging and raising property taxes. Not nursing homes, they are at risk of closing. Not roads or bridges. Buses got a nice bump. Didn’t go to the environment. Didn’t go to more cops. Ahhhhh, but so many moer adults without children get state-funded health care. Ahhhhh, but welfare recipients don’t have to undergo common sense income checks or work requirements anymore. This isnj’t helping those who can’t help themselves, this is corraling more people into the basket of “the needy” and making taxpayers pick up the tab. But that makes us feel so good, doesn’t it? To help the “downtrodden” get ahead in life. Yes, we can all pat ourselves on the back. We’ve done good. We’ve made it easier for people to settle for a sub-standard life and resolidified our voting base at the same time. aren’t we wonderful!

Roads and bridges don’t vote, morons. Why should we worry about them?

“Six of one; half-dozen of another.”

Ha. Please do some basic research before you try to impress people here with your faux-quantitative drivel …

Heh. I’m sure you’re being sarcastic. But one never knows. (And if “one” is the loneliest number, then how does “zero” feel when it doesn’t have company?)

Re: funding for bridge repair/replacement:

… so many moer adults without children get state-funded health care. Ahhhhh, but welfare recipients don’t have to undergo common sense income checks or work requirements anymore.

Okay, so what would’ve happened had much of that new $3 billion in revenue had been appropriated for MnDOT projects? THE 35W BRIDGE WOULD STILL HAVE COLLAPSED! There was no indication during the previous budget session, or those in the years before, that the bridge was in IMMINENT danger of collapse.

None. Nada. Zero. Zen-zen.

Wakatta ka na?

“(And if “one” is the loneliest number, then how does “zero” feel when it doesn’t have company?)“

Trick question. Less lonely than 1.

Oh, and, not really sarcastic, “sarcasm” implying some hint of hostility or displeasure. More like “absurd.”

Rest assured, people, of one irrefutable FACT:

The Republicans have done nothing wrong.

Need proof? Ask them. They’ll tell you.

Have proof? Well, then clearly you don’t understand what the question is. Or how the real world works.

Why else would the lefties cower in the corner, pissing themselves for fear of “bad threads?” Even they are convinced out the Righteousness of of the Righties.

Democracy, when used, is messy, unpleasant. Better we lose ourselves in bad TV than ask any hard questions. Or point fingers. Nothing to see here. MOVE ALONG. Get off that bridge over there, faggots!

Sure, it might LOOK like people were shitting their pants with the knowledge that this bridge was going to collapse.

And sure, they were rebuffed by the Minnesota Taxpayers League i.e. Tim Pawlenty.

But if you twist these obvious facts to their apparent logic conclusion – that someone in “I Heart GW” boxer shorts is somehow to blame – then you are obviously a brainwashed idiot.

Any right thinking, moral, upstanding, self-supporting, non-welfare receiving (’cept corporate) MAN knows that the real culprits here are OBVIOUSLY the Democrats.

Want proof? Just ask them. We’ll tell you.

Might is Right. Right is Right.

Now stop asking questions and get in line, sheep.

More issues than National Geographic.

Don’t think “stupid Alabama potato farmer who happens to spell A-RAB just like he mispronounces it.”

Instead, consider what picture this person might be painting for you, and work, from there, to “what kind of person is this?”

It has nothing to do with how he spells things. It has to do with the fact he’s an ignorant and racist fuck.

jesus christ this is a disgusting clusterfuck of a thread.

I love how some people say in one breath that the bureaucrats did nothing wrong with their inspections and then in the next blame it on a lack of money because of other projects. which is it, guys? did it fall down because there was no money to fix it or did it fall down because someone took a ‘calculated risk’ and made the wrong decision?

you can’t have it both ways, and I somehow have a feeling all the unnatural defense of bureaucrats is a cover-your-ass move.

let’s assume the real problem is a lack of money for transportation infrastructure. if this is the case, then they blame any other transportation project they didn’t like (basically any project for any transportation mode other than cars) for eating up all the funding. but then this is just a tactic to make it look like the other guy’s fault. then they cite costs which include a giant chunk of federal money that has to be used for whichever project wins it in the first place (if you have a problem with that part, fault the way the feds decide). they don’t break it down by state contribution, and the state money is the only part that would go towards bridge repair because it’s a state responsibility.

but then, wait, if money is the problem maybe that makes them look bad for starving transportation funding with no new taxes policies that are stuck to no matter what the consequences! so then money isn’t the problem at all! it’s just an act of god! there was nothing we could have done! they did everything they could and anyone who blames the safety inspection system is just an idiot that doesn’t understand! there’s no legitimacy to claiming that a chronic lack of proper funding changed the decision making at the DOT. no no! completely random chance occurance! no one’s to blame! certainly not them!

and then we have the lovely argument “but if more money had been appropriated the bridge still would have fallen down!” not necessarly. maybe if it had only appeared this last year, sure (although they seem to have just cheaped out on repairs pretty recently, hm!). but the real problem has been the chronic underfunding for years that changed the decision-making process. it’s not a good career move to constantly raise the alarm and make a stink that you need more money for everything when your boss is an anti-tax small government avenger. so people file reports and shut up so they can keep their jobs and pay the bills. if you have something that looks unsafe, but maybe you can eek another few years out of, well you goddamn better get a few more years out of it because nobody likes the guy that comes asking for a bunch of money to fix something.

seriously, the republican apologists are out in full force here. can’t you just admit when your boys screw something up royally and maybe learn from it? no one’s perfect, and you bunch of schmucks sure as hell aren’t. democrats and republicans alike have a lot of learning to do, but when you go into defensive mode and blame everyone else in the world (including god) instead of taking a slight bit of responsibility you look like fucking children.

The only thing we learned from this piece is that the writers know nothing about project management, cost management or risk management.

Of course, disagree with a news story and the media is stupid and biased. Obviously Mr. Tester is an expert in these things and has had a long and fruitful career in project management of infrastructure projects.

Oh wait, I thought he makes poorly designed toys for gullible corporate types to train their employees with?

hey bobby, why do you hate anything that’s not a car?

Oh wait, I thought he makes poorly designed toys for gullible corporate types to train their employees with?

Unlike you, who probably pushes paper in the bureaucracy all day, I do a lot of different things because I know how.

let’s assume the real problem is a lack of money for transportation infrastructure.

That was your first mistake. The rest was wasted keystrokes.

and then we have the lovely argument “but if more money had been appropriated the bridge still would have fallen down!” not necessarly. maybe if it had only appeared this last year, sure (although they seem to have just cheaped out on repairs pretty recently, hm!).

I disagree. There was no indication, during numerous inspections, that the bridge was in danger of imminent collapse. Even the most pessimistic estimate of its structural integrity still gave the bridge 5 years (from 2006) before it was estimated it would need major repairs or complete replacement.

Remember: the 35W bridge had, when it was completed in 1967, an estimated life of 70 years. That was later reduced, IIRC, to 50 years. So the earliest general estimate (before 2006) for its removal and replacement was 2017 … still 10 years away.

I’m not covering any beaucrat’s ass by making these statements. I am merely pointing out that even if money had been appropriated in 2005-2006 for the complete replacement of the bridge, the 35W bridge would still have collapsed because funding is one thing; construction scheduling is another. Even in early 2006, inspections did not detect any danger of imminent collapse.

As the article stated, short of complete condemnation, the bridge would still have been used, abused and repaired in the intervening years before any new bridge construction was started.

So then their inspection and safety rating systems are wrong. They need to take a long hard look at how they decide things are safe, because no matter how much you say “the system they had in place said it should have lasted longer!” it did not, in fact, last longer. I really don’t understand how you can keep beating the drum of “nothing was done wrong!” when a bridge collapsed with traffic on it. Sure, maybe they followed the rules they have, but can’t you at least admit those rules were unacceptable in light?

Why is so important to you to have someone to blame? I blame the design that, in retrospect, was inadequate for the amount and type of traffic that the bridge received. But who knew in 1967 what sort of conditions would exist in 2007?

Inspections aren’t perfect. Something was not caught in time. But it’s not as if this bridge suffered from neglect. It had more maintenance projects and people assigned to it than any other bridge in town. I suppose you could say the bureaucrats responsible for the work did a half-assed job if you want to, but I’m not going to.

And with that, I’m going back to my Bells Pale Ale and watching “Diary of a Mad Black Woman.”

Where can one purchase Bells Pale Ale?

bartbrett, I get mine at the Texas Tonka Liquor store in SLP, but I believe they sell it at MGM.

“hey bobby, why do you hate anything that’s not a car?“

Well, lemme tell ya’, Wayne . . .

They say, walking women home is a thing of the past
Women want to ride and ride around in class
Some like Cadillacs, boys, some like Fords
Some like anything as long as it rolls.

Every woman I know she’s crazy ’bout an automobile
Every woman I know is crazy ’bout an automobile
And here I am standing with nothing but rubber heels

One more thing I wanna tell you

Riding and loving just can’t be beat,
You and your woman in your own front seat.
Now, she can play with your keys, shift the gears,
Turn on your radio just loud enough to hear.
Now, she can turn up the heat and flip on your fan,
And then you start rolling just as fast as you can.

Every woman I know she’s crazy ’bout an automobile
Every woman I know is crazy ’bout an automobile
And here I am standing with nothing but rubber heels

How am I going to be a road warrior without a LAST-V8 Interceptor?

Thanks aliecat. Pale Ale good.

And look what you’re missing Wayne:

Pink Cadillac

You may think Im fooling
For the foolish things I do
You may wonder how come I love you
When you get on my nerves like you do
Well baby, you know you bug me
There aint no secret about that
Well come on over here and hug me
And, baby, Ill spill the facts
Well, honey it aint your money
Cause baby I got plenty of that

I love you for your pink Cadillac
Crushed velvet seats
Riding in the back, oozing down the street
Waving to the girls
Feeling out of sight
Spending all my money on a Saturday night
Honey, I just wonder what you do there in back of your pink cadillac
Pink cadillac

Well now way back in the bible, temptations always come along
Theres always somebody tempting you
Somebody into doing something they know is wrong
Well they tempt you man with silver and they tempt you sir with gold
And they tempt you with the pleasures that the flesh does surely hold
They say eve tempted adam with an apple
Man I aint going for that

I know it was her pink cadillac
Crushed velvet seats
Riding in the back, oozing down the street
Waving to the girls
Feeling out of sight
Spending all my money on a saturday night
Honey, I just wonder what you do there in back of your pink cadillac

Now some folks say its too big and uses too much gas
Some folks say its too old and that it goes too fast
But my love is bigger than a honda, its bigger than a subaru
Hey man theres only one thing and one car that will do
Anyway we dont have to drive it honey, we can park it out in back
And have a party in your pink cadillac