Secrets of the City

If you live within a reasonable distance, you can bike to work.

There are a bunch of other things you can do (small car/mass transit/carpool), and none of it is really new. A lot of people just don’t want to do it I guess. It’s too bad, really.

Fulton Hanson of Hinkley has a suggestion.

My solution was to get a bike, and it’s been great. There’s a whole biking culture here that is very welcoming, and the bike path/transit route infrastructure is pretty damn good. I feel like I’ve gotten to know Minneapolis in a much more street-level kind of way — I feel more connected to the city. I notice buildings I’d never noticed from my car, and actually see all the sort of great, wacky urban hijinks going down right next to me, like the Mexican family on 31st that is always in their front yard selling homemade pastries — hi, family! Plus, shit, I meet people on the street all the time now. Some of them are attractive women. It’s an awfully good anecdote to our metropolis’ supposed reputation for passive-aggressive quasi-jerkiness.

I guess we’ll see how that goes this winter, but still.

If the southwest corridor and central corridor rails existed, I would probably just sell my car completely. Those, with the bike paths, would put me pretty much anywhere in the cities I go.

My mom lives in the rurual countryside in Iowa and has for years. I suggested that she drive into town to take the bus to do her errands to conserve gas. She looked at me like I was insane. It was like I had suggested she should grow wings and fly.

I, on the other hand, can’t fathom not using my own bodily fuel and energy to get to work on my own two legs.

I just filled up, and YIKES…$49.00 for my sensible little Mazda sedan. Enviromnmental concerns aside, if I had a longer commute (one tank lasts me ~3 weeks), I’d be seriously considering a switch back to riding the bus as my main means of transit. The folks that are inevitably going to be pinched are the folks who bought out beyond the perimeter to get more house for the money and have to fill up 2-3 times per week. Suckers.

Have your mom buy a raffle ticket for this and her transportation issues are solved, Christine.

It’s a lifestyle choice issue too. I’m all for freedom of choice, but the sheer amount of waste inherent in someone choosing to live in some place like Buffalo or Rogers and work in Minneapolis or Saint Paul is absolutely baffling.

I bike more on short trips. It makes sense, even though I don’t care for it much.

My commute to work has been a heckuva lot shorter lately, which is even more reason for me to bike instead of drive. I feel guilty about that every day. I feel even more guilty now that I’ve publicly confessed it.

I walk to work every day. Then I walk the eleven feet back to my bed and take a nap. I repeat this throughout the course of the day.

That’s only 11 feet longer than your mom’s commute from work to bed!

Come on Bob, it doesn’t need to be an E85 chopper to make a difference. Virtually any motorcycle on the road today gets hybrid-like mileage. And I can happily say that MN has the second highest per capita motorcycle ownership in the country, behind CA.

Oh my god. Mom?

I would bike to work, it’s just that my suit pants get caught in my bike gears, and I’d spill my coffee.

Come on Bob, it doesn’t need to be an E85 chopper to make a difference

True enough. I made the link because this weird bike has been making headlines every day as it travels through Iowa. I’m not kidding, the locals are eating it up like corn on a stick at the State Fair.

Oh, and I have been known to talk about that cleaner-burning fuel…er, what’s it called?

I’ll take cars and Big Cars on the streets before those little scooters that are starting to sell a bit more in the U.S. They have INFESTED the streets in Europe and the racket those things make night and day would drive me crazy if I had to live in one of the larger cities there.

Try to sleep with the windows open in some of those cities. It’s impossible.

My commute is about 5 miles, but I live and work in the same town. I would bike, but I’m just too damn lazy…and scared of the way people in SLP drive…

I’m taking the bus more and more all the time. My company pays for almost half of my monthly pass, so I try to squeeze as much use out of it as I can.

When I do drive, I try to combine as many things on one trip as possible — gym, Target, groceries and the like.

Grote: “…it’s just that my suit pants get caught in my bike gears, and I’d spill my coffee.”

Trying to recover from that kind of a spill could lead to you dropping your cellphone, which would result in a lost conversation and could even turn out to be quite expensive. It’s safer to just take the car.

i read yesterday that ethanol get 30% less mileage than gasoline because it contains less energy. this true bob?

Scooters are pretty awesome. Ours get something like 70 miles to the gallon. I can pick up two bags of groceries on it. Or two six packs.

Walking and busing more is a good idea too. But, in the last month and a half we have witnessed two shootings while walking, so be careful.

And I wish they made those shoes with wheels in the bottoms for adults. I’ve seen those kids get moving pretty quick down the sidewalk.

I’ve been noticing the Vespa-type scooters more in downtown Minneapolis. They don’t seem very loud to me.

I’d buy one if I had a place to store it. I bet they get crazy good mileage.

Grote: “The folks that are inevitably going to be pinched are the folks who bought out beyond the perimeter to get more house for the money and have to fill up 2-3 times per week. Suckers.”

Yeah, silly middle- and working-class people who wanted a house big enough for their family that they could afford! They should have had the common sense to stuff themselves and their kids into a two-bedroom apartment. That’s what they get for aspiring beyond their station.

So gas goes up 50 cents a gallon. I fill up once every 2 weeks at about 15 gallons each fill. My additional cost becomes about 15 bucks a month or 180 a year. At the same time, I go out for drinks and dinner with my fiance and we drop 100 bucks easily. This is really not going to kill anyone. Now if we shot up to 6 bucks a gallon, I would start to worry a bit, but even then I would just walk to the store and take the bus when I could.

I realise I have a less than typial commute, but I also paid more per sf on my house. Trade offs my friends.

I would bike to work, it’s just that my suit pants get caught in my bike gears, and I’d spill my coffee.

you gotta learn the bike punx cuff roll, man! I’m also pretty sure you can either buy or easily rig a cupholder for a bike.

Last time Mrs. Lungs and I dined at the Panera in Wayne’s World, we both noted the number of scooters, both new and old (classic Vespas). She wants one!

I’ve been noticing the Vespa-type scooters more in downtown Minneapolis

saw a cute young think in a mint green & white summer dress that matched her mint green & white Vespa southbound on Hennepin this morning.

They don’t seem very loud to me.

They’re not all Vespas. Some look bigger. And one or two here and there doesn’t amount to much.

But when they start hitting triple figures in confined areas they echo off the buildings.

in the last month and a half we have witnessed two shootings while walking, so be careful.

Christ. Where do you live?

Biking in a suit is great fun. I do it as much as possible. You always look like you’re on your way to a mod picnic, and people appreciate that. Throw a flouncy striped scarf into the deal, and you’re irresistable.

I’ve been looking at scooters with great interest. Does anyone know anything about riding them in the winter, other than that it’s probably the teensiest bit dangerous? A friend once indicated to me that she’d heard it was in fact illegal completely to drive scooters in the winter.

And I wish they made those shoes with wheels in the bottoms for adults. I’ve seen those kids get moving pretty quick down the sidewalk.

I don’t know what you’re talking about, KC. You can get Heelys up to size 12.

Christ. Where do you live?

Southwest Minneapolis, technically. But one of those wasn’t in our neighborhood, on Eat Street. The other was when we decided to take the route that went past the prostitution house that was just busted and the apartment that just had a murder to get some ice cream.

No one was killed in either instance, no one was probably even hit, but we saw guns that were fired.

Doltfinder: We are talking E85 here, not pure ethanol like the Indy style cars use. There’s a difference.

Ethanol does has a lower energy density than typical gasoline (just as gasoline has a lower energy density than desiel fuel).

Our main reason for supporting E85 isn’t the miles per gallon, it’s the cleaner emissions when a flex-fuel vehicle uses E85 instead of gas.

The EPA has some new E85 milage numbers that we (and others who know a thing or two about E85) think are too high. This may have been what you heard of. We have a couple of vehicles that can use E85, our experience has been a 10% to 20% fuel economy difference, depending on driving conditions, etc.

The problem with some scooterists is that they think they are bicyclists. Thus, some of them obey the posted laws about as well. I saw a scooter driving on the Washington ave pedestrian bridge just this morning. I seem them driving on the sidewalk all the time too…

A couple of things grote –
First, I saw that same girl this morning. She was utterly delightful. Sun dresses are splendid. White sun dresses that match scooters are ineffable.

Secondly, you need to get kick ass reflective velcro things to wrap up your pant cuffs. Very stylish. Pack your coffee in a Camelback and you’re ready to go!

Apparently, this is what would happen if gas did go up to $6.00 a gallon.

I saw a scooter driving on the Washington ave pedestrian bridge just this morning. I seem them driving on the sidewalk all the time too…

this annoys the shit out of me. I’ve even seen a scooter on the fucking bike trail before. they cruised right by the sign that said ‘no motorized vehicles’

Yeah, silly middle- and working-class people who wanted a house big enough for their family that they could afford!

yes…you mean folks just like me, except a tad myopic in selecting a home location. And while I fully agree that it’s admirable to aspire beyond your station, it’s downright stupid to spend beyond it.

Eat Street huh? I live right there, and I’m always hearing about all this crime, but I never experience any of it. I fear I’m about due to have my card pulled.

Sweet, I’m getting Heelys.

re: scootering in the winter

Lot’s of people do it, and it isn’t legal.

Go talk to the guys at Scooterville. They will hook you up with a good scooter, not a piece of crap, and they can talk to you about scootering in the winter. They do it all year long.

kc!: “…the apartment that just had a murder to get some ice cream.”

For a minute there, I thought Ben and Jerry had just launched a new flavor.

I mean, this.

Oops

Look at those TGB Scooters. Those sonsabitches are loud!

I lived off of 24th and 1st when South Minne was still kinda sketchy (pre-condo boom) and never was a victim of a crime or saw anyone else commit a crime. But then again, I don’t loiter all day at the bus stop in front of Hark’s Market.

Sun dresses are splendid. White sun dresses that match scooters are ineffable.

That’s why my cross-dressing urges always peak in the summer…it’s just waxing is just too time consuming to actually follow through.

yes…you mean folks just like me, except a tad myopic in selecting a home location. And while I fully agree that it’s admirable to aspire beyond your station, it’s downright stupid to spend beyond it

You urbanites tend to tut tut us who live out in the burbs, but tell me, where does the physical space exist in Minneapolis and St. Paul to fit the other 2 million residents of the metro area who you would have live there.

I always find it annoying when people say they can’t find a house big enough for their family in the city. In reality, there are plenty of reasonably priced houses in the city with more than enough room, but they’re not in acceptable neighborhoods. If more of these “silly middle and working class people” bought those houses, the neighborhoods would quickly become more than acceptable.

Bottom line, family planning plays a big role in the overall sustainability question.

And while I fully agree that it’s admirable to aspire beyond your station, it’s downright stupid to spend beyond it.

and so very american!

USA USA!
the fourth has barely past us, let’s continue to celebrate what it is to be american!

I know grote doesn’t want to hear it, but there are several solutions to his objections.

If you’re a drink-hot-beverages-while-you-ride sort of person, go down to Freewheel and get a Soho coffee mug. These warmer days, I am more inclined to just bring the coffee along in a vacuum bottle. One person has even dedicated an entire website to the subject of transporting coffee on a bike –the brewed kind, not whole roasted beans.

As for greasy pant legs, there are various leg bands (I prefer the Jandd ankle strap) and English/Dutch (inspired) options with chainguards and even completely enclosed chaincases.

And take a look into Dutch cycling culture in general.

I would bike or scooter commute to work except I work at home, so I just kind of mosey on over to my desk. I know I’m always bring Amsterdam up whenever someone brings up bikes, but damn that city knows how to commute on a bike. It was pretty common to see someone hauling two kids (on on the front, one on the back) while holding an umbrella and a cel phone.

Dutch bikes have an enclosed chain so you can’t catch the leg of your pantsuit in the chain. They also accept a coffee mug holder. There are several companies selling Dutch or Dutch-style bikes in the US.

Here’s one.

As for scooters. They are great. My Stella gets 90mpg. But keep in mind if you are using it to commute you’ll need something that is 50cc or smaller in order to get moped plates and be able to park it on the sidewalk. Anything larger (like mine which is a 150cc) needs motorcycle plates, license and needs to be parked like a motorcycle. Also they are fun fun fun.

There is a big scooter rally in August called Rattle My Bones. Always a lot of fun with some great rides.

As mentioned earlier, go over to Scooterville. They are moving as the building they’re in is being demolished to make way for condos or a parking lot or maybe a stadium.

everyone knows you just like white sundresses because you can see through them

i haven’t owned a car since 2002 and i don’t plan on purchasing one again in my lifetime if i can help it.

but as a (recently) unemployed woman in the twin cities who would like to work places that are north, south, east, or west of Downtown, i’d like to see more bus lines and/or lightrail that reach more places. sure, there are buses that can get me to and from those places, but it’s not helpful if they run either once an hour, only during rush hour, or then have no service on the weekends.

and i’d also really love it if employers didn’t brush my talents off and throw my resume in the trash once they hear i do not drive. it happens to me at least once a week. it’s like i have some sort of disease when i tell them that i rely on the bus, lightrail, or my bike to get where i need to go (and i enjoy it. i have nothing against public transit, as it’s something i’ve grown accustom to within the past 7 years both here and in Boston). it’s really sad and depressing, but it also makes me mad at the same time. i don’t think i should be made to feel like an unworthy candidate just because i choose not to pay for a vehicle and all the bullshit that comes with owning one.

so i think more money to public transit and more light rail lines are the way to go. i’d gladly pay more in taxes and/or increased fares than have to deal with buying a car, putting gas in it, insuring it, registering it, making it theft-proof, doing the required repairs on it, and dealing with parking.

that’s my gripe for the day.

Home size is all relative. i grew up in 950 sf with 2 sisters and my mom. Americans are far too used to the idea that anything sub-2000 sf is cramped; I need the 3-car garage for my boat, etc. Most of the houses within the city are 1000-1500 sf and managed to work for decades with families of all sizes. Not sure what happened in the 80’s, but I’ll just blame it on Reagan. I lived in NYC for awhile and 2000 sf was HUGE. I move here and people look at me like I am nuts for saying that 1200 sf is more than enough for the two of us. Even with a kid or 2, we will be fine. Most of the houses I go to out in the burbs have a lot of wasted space and/or useless junk lying around.

re: scootering in the winter

Lot’s of people do it, and it isn’t legal.

Wait, so it isn’t legal, but you can do it anyway?

You urbanites tend to tut tut us who live out in the burbs, but tell me, where does the physical space exist in Minneapolis and St. Paul to fit the other 2 million residents of the metro area who you would have live there.

In all of the empty condos?

I can point out any number of urban areas throughout the world that give lie to your assumption that we can’t fit more people in Minneapolis.

sorry, scootering in the winter is LEGAL, not illegal, my mistake.

If you look at Tokyo, or even NYC, you will quickly realize that we could easily pack more people in Minneapolis… However, no one would have much of a yard because no one in those cities do.

I am not an urbanite, I’m a first-ringer. With a great big yard & an affordable monthly mortgage and a commuting cost of ~$20 per week. We placed “short commute time” about 5th on our list of needs/desires when we home-shopped ~7 years ago. I imagine that as gas prices continue to climb, other homebuyers will move the commute-cost factor up their rankings, ahead of things like “beige siding”, “homogenized sterile neighborhood”, “big garage for my SUV”, “cul de sac”, “no mature trees” and “bordering on wetlands”…or whatever you folks out in Albertville are after these days.

Folks, I’m not talking about people buying monster houses with 6 bedrooms, a four-car garage, and a yard the size of a soccer field. I’m talking about something with 3 bedrooms (maybe four if they’re small) and maybe a modest yard. In the suburb I live in, you won’t find that for under $200K (and a couple years ago, it was more like $225K) unless it needs a ton of work.

The point about there being homes like this in the core, just not in the best neighborhoods, is valid. But the bad neighborhoods aren’t going to change overnight, either, just because more middle-class people move into them. More affordable housing is sorely, sorely needed in this area, as it’s a big part of why people move so far out when they shouldn’t have to.

That’s what parks are for, Douglas. And it’d make for a city where people work and play together a hell of a lot more often.

It is amazing what people think they need.

“Kids need yards.” Umm, why? They can go to the park and socialize with other kids and run around and have fun. Same goes for dogs.

“I have to have garage.” Again, why? If you actually have hobbies that require a garage, sure. But if you are just using it for storage, you don’t need it, you need less things.

“We need a four bedroom house with an office, living room and family room.” And why? Do you have three kids? Do they need seperate rooms? Do you all really dislike each other so much that you must be in different rooms all the time?

And, not a need, but the BS of houses being cheaper in the suburbs (as pointed out before) is just wrong. We have a 1400 square foot townhouse (with 4 bedrooms that we do not need) and bought a year ago for $184,000. And, we don’t have to pay for gas or wear and tear on the car, that people forget to add into the suburbs are cheaper equation. Our house shares a wall, so our energy costs are lower then in the suburbs. When our theoretical kids turn 16 they won’t need a car, because we are on bus lines.

Yards are overrated, Doug…think of all that time people spend mowing, and watering, and weeding…

I can point out any number of urban areas throughout the world that give lie to your assumption that we can’t fit more people in Minneapolis.

Sure, but we have no practical reason to do that, we have enough space to spread people out in the city and the burbs in single family homes with yards. If thats an option you want to remove, then you’re denfintly a little Soviet

You don’t have to tell me yards are over rated. I’ve have been slowly eliminating mine since I moved in. Also, the standard lot size in my neighborhood is 40×100. Such wasted space!

I’ve have been slowly eliminating mine since I moved in.

Are you employing the same “slow elimination” process I have, which basically means that I never water my lawn and it’s all pretty much dead by now? Or are you more artistic than that?

I’m saving up to buy a home in SLP, the yards are small enough to mow with one of those manual, non gas-type mowers from the 50s.

I’m saving up to buy a home in SLP, the yards are small enough to mow with one of those manual, non gas-type mowers from the 50s.

That is what I use, but there hasn’t been much of a need with how dry it has been…

Things that I had as a kid that I am sad burb-kids do not have:
1. Corner stores. not an SA or Holiday, but honest to goodness family owned corner stores with candy and video games to take my pockets of change to.

2. Public pool a few blocks away to ride my bike to, tennis courts too.

3. Old couple down the street that were there in case you needed help. remember ‘helping hands’ signs

4. Bike paths and parks to run around in unsupervised for hours.

5. toy stores to go to and just look at all the GI JOE figures and baseball cards I needed to get.

6. blocks and blocks of alleys to hang out in and cause trouble.

7. neighborhood ditch games until after dark.

8. the ‘other side of town’ that was still on the grid, so I could bike there.

9. freetime

10. the power to choose what I wanted to do on any given day.

I’m an 3rd ringer with a sensible mortgage on a 57 year old 1000 sf rambler. Theres lots of older housing stock in the suburbs btw. Commuting has been expensive for me, I did trade my Ford Ranger for a Toyota Corolla – which was one of the best things I ever did. I’ll keep tweaking my vehicle situation before giving up my location.

or whatever you folks out in Albertville are after these days.

Heh.

Are you employing the same “slow elimination” process I have, which basically means that I never water my lawn and it’s all pretty much dead by now? Or are you more artistic than that?

A bit of both. I put a big garage in — for my woodworking hobby. I put put in quite a few pavers. Sidewalks run beside the garage to the fence. I have a bursting raspberry patch. I put in a couple of raised gardens — with one more to go…

“…or whatever you folks out in Albertville are after these days.”

I hear it is time to pick a new King of the Lawn Tractor to rule over the Realm of Expansive Yards for another seven years, before he is made to drink from a chalice filled with crabgrass killer. This ensures more seasons of lush turf and just the right amount of rain. So the seasoned ExUrb-watcher knows to avoid the area until Samhain.

Sure, but we have no practical reason to do that, we have enough space to spread people out in the city and the burbs in single family homes with yards. If thats an option you want to remove, then you’re denfintly a little Soviet

Soviet or not, there are many practical reasons to do that. If you can’t figure them out, you haven’t been reading this thread.

Good for DouglasG for using a reel mower, and for aliecat for her intent on using one. I still have mine, although I switched to cordless electric mowers some years ago.

Like grote, I too am a first ringer. When my wife and I lived in Kingfield with our one child, we loved our station in life. But we lived on a really busy street that was a bus line and had plenty of airline traffic. Nonetheless, we loved our life. However, when kid #2 came along, we really couldn’t squeeze into that house. Yes our kids share a room. No we don’t have plasma screen televisions and pool tables and jet skis. We just were busting at the seams, in my case, literally.

So we looked at over 30 houses in Mpls, and contrary to what I’m reading here, we couldn’t afford a decent house in a decent neighborhood. We basically found that to get one more bedroom and even a li’l ol’ yard, we were looking at adding 80K to our mortgage. That’s an expensive bedroom.

Reluctantly (even bitterly) we told our agent to check out SLP/Golden Valley. He found a house about 10 minutes from downtown and we made the trade: tiny house in Minneapolis or bigger (not big) house in the suburbs. If we hated it, we’d move in 5 years. It’s been three and so far we haven’t lost our minds.

I’m all for moving into neighborhoods in order to be part of a transition and transformation, but when you have two kids and you need to take all things (schools, safety, etc.) into consideration, there’s a lot to weigh.

I bike to work.

Mowing is Zen. It’s my alone time. Just me, the hum of the mower, a can of Surly and the smell of fresh cut grass.

My neighbor always offers to let me use their gas powered mower, but I decline every time. My back yard is about 20×10 now, and the front is 40×30. There isn’t a lot to mow, and it is flat.

Rez, this topic has come up on the site many times, and I’ve pointed out almost every time that housing in decent neighborhoods in the city is not hard to find. At all. Using your criteria: 3 bedrooms under $200,000 — just in Longfellow — I see 26 mls listings.

So, again, it is other factors that have people spending that 200k elsewhere.

We all know that “other factors” is a euphemism that statisticians use in place of “getting hopped up on goofballs and the meth”. You can say it.

I’m not anti-suburb, per se. It’s true, I think the entertainment, dining and retail options in most suburbs are insipid, but that’s a city planning question, not a geographical issue. What I am violently and rabidly opposed to is the phenomenon of people working more than 10 or so miles from where they work, using far too much energy in the process, and then compounding the issue by living in an area that doesn’t fulfill basic needs, necessitating 50-100 miles worth of errands in a single weekend.

And if you don’t like the energy argument, how about the quality of life/health argument. How much more time would you spend with your family if your commute was 10 minutes or less? And how much healthier would you be if your time in the car was replaced with something less stressful, or even, dare I say, involving exercise?

What I am violently and rabidly opposed to is the phenomenon of people working more than 10 or so miles from where they work,

hard to argue with you there, rich….unless you’re pro-cloning.

I do love me some goofballs!

getting hopped up on goofballs and the meth

I can respond to Rich’s point about maximizing quality time and exercise and grote’s comment about the zen of mowing with this.

bob, you’re right, the EPS says: FFVs operating on E85 usually experience a 20-30% drop in miles per gallon due to ethanols lower energy content.

oh, who to believe . . .

Here’s a recent research paper written in some bullshit language that I don’t understand that gets a bit at what honeybun mentioned. Why these things can’t be written in plain English, I don’t know. My guess is that it’s a conspiracy perpetuated by Big Research to keep regular folks out.

Delicious goofballs. Like those I was on when typing my cloning manifesto.

Nate…add can coolers and an iPod dock w/ built in speakers and get that sucker to market.

i work in St. Paul but live in Minneapolis because that’s where i drink. I figure better to commute to work and be able to walk home trashed from the bar then walk to work and have to drive on 94 with one eye closed. (and drinking in st. Paul isn’t in option- the cool kids are all in minne snap olis

Oh sweet mother of Zeus! grote, why are we having this conversation on a public forum? This idea is butter! No seriously. Call me.

Add this to this and we’re retiring early baby!

Mower helmet!!!!!

I think all those factors are the fundamental questions a person has to deal with. I think in many cases though, where people work is based on where they can get the best money, and where they live is based on where they enjoy living, and never shall the two meet. Very difficult to orchestrate planning policy around over a 7 or 9 county area.

Goofballs. It’s what’s for dinner while your clone mows the lawn for you.

What I am violently and rabidly opposed to…

Have you been moved to violence recently on this? What heppend to Live and Let Live, Rich?

I’m saving up to buy a home in SLP, the yards are small enough to mow with one of those manual, non gas-type mowers from the 50s.

Alie -
Glad to hear that you plan to stay in the Park. We’re in our second SLP house. With the ridiculous number of parks in the city, you don’t need a big yard – even with kids.

“…I think in many cases though, where people work is based on where they can get the best money, and where they live is based on where they enjoy living, and never shall the two meet….”

Another factor: In an age where “job security” is virtually non-existent, a person could have chosen a place to live that was convenient to their work, but then find themselves working elsewhere that was less convenient.
For example, someone could have gotten a job at Boston Scientific in Maple Grove, and found a place in Maple Grove. With the rounds of layoffs there, a person could all of a sudden find themselves looking for a job in Eden Prairie, Wayzata, Fridley, New Brighton, etc.

If you had just bought a place, you could take an additional financial hit if you were to move just keep a comparable commute. and if you have kids, how badly do you want to up root them from their schools and friends?

Damn clones taking all our jobs!

I don’t really get the ‘burb hatred. City livin’ simply isn’t for everyone, and I don’t think it’s particularly fair to judge people so harshly for not wanting to move into Minneapolis. A large majority of my family members would rather have splinters in their eyes then live in a city neighborhood (I am not one of those people).

I mean, yes, living in Albertville and commuting to Minneapolis seems absurd just for how time-consuming it would be. I grew up in Shoreview and my parents commuted into St. Paul for work every day, and we were a big family so we needed the space that we had. And it’s all fine and good to say “live where you work,” but in an era where people change jobs much more often, that logic doesn’t hold. Right now I live in the city a mile from my office and walk every day, but maybe next year I’ll get a job out in Eden Prairie and rejoin commuters. And maybe by then the damn trains will go places that people actually need to go.

I love SLP, but I fear I may never afford one of the lovely 2 bedrooms in my neighborhood…but I like my apartment just fine for now.

“It is amazing what people think they need.“

“Need”? Many of us big-lot, large-house, multi-kid, multi-car, anti-sardine burbites don’t “need” what we’ve sought out and found. “Need” has to do with minimum daily caloric requirements, heat loss calculations, and body-volume measurements.

No, we live where we live, how we live, because we WANT to. We spend what we spend on gas, and heat, and cars, and homes, because it PLEASES us. We happily drive on busy roads that we help pay for to employment at businesses that provide tax support to the cities in which they are found. And, frankly, we (or at least I) pretty much reject the idea that, for all of this, we should feel some sort of guilt – that we’re using something to which some unnamed others have a higher right.

I’ve been listening to doomsday predictions for four decades, detailing how we’re going to be out of food, energy, room, immunity, civility . . . you name it . . . by the year . . . oh, yeah, that was about ten years ago. So far, all wrong. “Peak oil” keeps creeping further out, human inventiveness and intelligence manages to increase food stock, the glacier didn’t come, future shock wandered away, medical advances continue to . . . well . . . advance, and the world and its inhabitants are in better shape than ever before.

So, spare me your dire “it’s our duty to huddle together in the bleak cities for warmth, traveling only by sustainable dogsled” Blade-Runner-ready instruction. Life for humanity is more likely than not to simply continue to get better with time, as it has for decades.

I don’t see the reason for vitriolic attitudes for the choices people make with their lives. Suburban dwellers aren’t breaking any laws or hurting anyone.

I have nothing against the Wooidbury’s of this world. I just don’t want to live there.

Alie, those houses in SLP are SO freaking cute, I can’t stand it. I wish I could afford one!

Oh, and I would buy one of those helmets even if I didn’t mow. I’d just walk around all day drunk and singing to my favorite song…

With the brisk air today, I’m reminded of one more refinement to Mower Helmet.

got this notice from work today. may be one reason some people (not me, i live in nordeast) don’t want to a) live in the city or 2nd) ride the bus. i’m guessing this doesn’t happen a lot in albertville.

On Tuesday, July 10, 2007 at approximately 5:30 p.m., a woman was assaulted at the Midtown bus stop on Chicago Avenue. The assailant punched the female victim in the face, threw her to the ground and attempted to run off with her bag. ….She had a baby who suffered no injuries.

Josie, they’re even cuter inside, my coworker lives about 6 blocks from me and they really did a nice job with it. However, the rooms are pretty cramped and the bathroom is laughably small, but if it were just me and maybe one other person, I would be as happy as a pig in shit to live in one of those little post-war homes…

i’ll never be able to purchase a house in the worst neighborhood of this city, nevermind the best. why? because i’m $40K in the hole from student loans and credit card debt (only $5K of that is CC debt) and i’m married to a man who would rather get hit by a bus than sign any mortgage papers. he went to college for free and has never held a balance on his credit cards in the 40 years he’s been on this earth. he doesn’t understand the concept of debt, but then again, he’s pretty much had everything handed to him. and THAT is a concept I will never understand.

oh yeah, and i’m unemployed because no one wants to hire a chick without a car. woe is me.

Like I said, my problem doesn’t lie with the burbs, per se, it’s with the conscious choice people make to live way the hell out there and commute 40 miles to work each day. And while I’m quite comfy with live and let live as a philosophy when applied to most situations, it doesn’t function as well in this case. These issues affect all of us, and while I’m a big proponent of freedom of choice, these choices are coming dangerously close to affecting everyone’s quality of life.

Now, I’m not saying we need to evacuate the exurbs and force downtown living on everyone. I’m just saying that we need to be conscious of these issues. Yesterday’s downtown traffic/transit plans are a great example. They were designed to push as much traffic through downtown as possible — not the right goal when we’re dealing with this set of problems.

Keep looking honeybun, I work with several people that bus it to work, and they’re always on time and have thought about it myself…

I have nothing against the Wooidbury’s of this world. I just don’t want to live there.

Honestly, neither do I. What I do have a problem with is all the money/infrastructure going to shuttle those people into and out of town at the expense of the livability of the city. It’s not just a bunch of offices to come make your money at and forget about–people live here too. The decimation of urban neighbourhoods by highways really irks me. Don’t get me started on 94 and Rondo…

honeybun, why do you tell them you don’t have a car? Unless the job requires it, they shouldn’t ask and you shouldn’t tell. If the job requires a car, maybe you shouldn’t apply for it. I know plenty of fully employed people without cars.

honeybun, I had problems with the no car thing too when I moved here. when I found out where a lot of jobs were I had to not apply or cancel an interview because I had no way of getting to the urban fringe. I got lucky and found a job right in the city, but it’s tough depending on what kind of work you do.

rich, exactly. you don’t have to force people to live in the city, you just have to make them start actually paying the true cost of their long commute. it’s amazing how most people don’t seem to realize that their driving infrastructure is so heavily subsidized because it seems free to them. but as soon as anyone talks about raising taxes a smidgeon to actually pay for those roads everybody flips out and has a fit.

It’s not just a bunch of offices to come make your money at

Sure it is. And who are you to say it isn’t?

No one’s going to move closer (it’s a crappy time to put your house on the market), and most people can’t buy a new car.

I imagine more people will start carpooling.

benny, I’m someone who lives there, and I’m sick of the place getting trashed like a party house by people who don’t live there.

jason, I imagine more people will start carplaining.

*rimshot*

You’re exactly right, Wayne. People bitched about high gas prices when we closed in on $2, and demand continued to rise.

Same deal when we closed in on $3. Demand flatlined for like a day, and then continued to rise.

Now we’re closing in on $4. The biggest thing we’ll see is an increase in carplaining. Brilliant.

Long term: I think more people will look at mileage when they buy a new car.

it’s amazing how most people don’t seem to realize that their driving infrastructure is so heavily subsidized because it seems free to them. but as soon as anyone talks about raising taxes a smidgeon to actually pay for those roads everybody flips out and has a fit.

It’s even more amazing that people who think they are above paying for their own transportation, demand that others pay for buses and trains so they can have a subsidized ride.

You don’t really think buses and trains are more heavily subsidized than roads and big oil do you?

how most people don’t seem to realize that their driving infrastructure is so heavily subsidized because it seems free to them

This is a long standing myth. The users have literally paid for their driving infracture through taxes. People who complain about this are just upset that $ hasnt been diverted to something else

Ummm…Bobby, I hate to rain on your parade, but the doomsday predictions haven’t hit here because we have the money to avoid them. Take a look at the quality of life around the world (and even here in lower income brackets) and you’ll see something far different than what you see in your daily life. If you want some examples, look no further than here. Or check out the many studies on how rising gas prices disproportionately affect low income consumers.

It’s depressing how this generation actually despises their own freedoms.

Rising gas prices really don’t stop anyone from driving. Gas is a necessity for a lot of people, and most people adjust their budget accordingly when the costs of the necessities (food, shelter, transportation) rises.

So you don’t go see Harry Potter in the theater when it comes out because you just dropped $40 at the pump and now you don’t have $40 for tickets and snacks, or you change your family vacation from a week at the Grand Canyon to a long weekend at a friend’s cabin. People aren’t going to stop needing going where they need to go, and right now a lot of those people need to drive their cars there. And then next time you buy a car, like Jason said, you look for better mileage or a hybrid or E85 that won’t cost you as much to get moving.

I would love to have a scooter. I’d scoot all over Minneapolis. Except these days I spend more time in Eden Prairie. I ain’t tryinna scoot to EP. And while there’s no reason why I couldn’t, it seems really odd to scoot around EP.

Reluctantly (even bitterly) we told our agent to check out SLP/Golden Valley.

If I had to live (as in “buy a house”) in a suburb, these would be my preferred cities. I’ve done SLP before. I’m actually surprised that more people around my age (who are looking in the ‘burbs, not the city) don’t look at Golden Valley, although I know a couple folks who bought in Robbinsdale. Everyone seems so intent on second-ring.

Also, I love richg.

or you change your family vacation from a week at the Grand Canyon to a long weekend at a friend’s cabin.

Well, amazingly or not, AAA is predicting another record year for family travel via auto this summer.

I did the math. I figure gas would have to cost about $20 a gallon for it to so affect my finances that I would change my lifestyle because of it. And I ain’t rich like Bartel.

Not to set off a panic but my wife informed me that a gas station owner near her place of employment said to expect another 15 cent/gallon bump tonight or tomorrow. But with the prices already, 15 cents starts to seem so miniscule. I hope that by the time my slowly rusting Pontiac dies that Japan has come up with some fantastic cars that aren’t as heavily dependent on oil.

The users have literally paid for their driving infracture through taxes.

At the expense of other things like education, might I add. But let’s also not forget that people who don’t use highways pay for them, just like people who don’t ride the bus pay for some of it. But way more money is spent on infrastructure for autos which are far less efficient at moving large numbers of people. I thought y’all conservatives were supposed to be about getting the most bang for your buck? Paving everything isn’t really the way to do that … but I guess your love of a good deal is overpowered by your hated of other people (or fear or anyone slightly different than yourself).

Life for humanity is more likely than not to simply continue to get better with time, as it has for decades.

Bobby, that’s right! We have so many people who can’t see a fat man standing beside a thin one without coming to the conclusion that the fat man got that way by taking advantage of the thin one!

Considering it costs $300 to fly one person somewhere cool at a convenient time on the day you want to fly, and the winning state of airline customer service lately, I can see why a family of four would rather hop in the car and take a road trip.

Plus, then big brothers can learn exactly how long they can throw things at their little sisters before the little sister starts to cry.

So why are gas prices rising?

The last I heard it was a flood in some Kansan refinery.
Is our gas supply so tenuous that one refinery has to shut down for a few weeks and gas prices go up 20%?

Oh, and if you really want to compare transit subsidies with road subsidies, the bus would be free to ride. There’s, what, one lousy toll road in this state? Everyone has to pay to ride the bus, though.

we live where we live, how we live, because we WANT to. We spend what we spend on gas, and heat, and cars, and homes, because it PLEASES us.

Ha. Do you think you came up with the WANTS and the PLEASES? Those ideas were sold to you to make somebody else rich.

At the expense of other things like education

Theres no way to logically demonstrate thats true, unless your saying anything we spend on should actually be spent on education. We tax and levy specifically for education, it isnt going without at the expense of anything.

I thought y’all conservatives were supposed to be about getting the most bang for your buck?

No, we’re more about freedom. Including freedom of movement. And we resent the hell out of snot-nosed collectivists trying to tell us how to live our lives, including where to live and how to get around.

(off-topic)
You know, I wear my bleeding liberal heart on my sleeve, but I have to say that sometimes I’m really disheartened by the approach to liberal-conservative debate on this board. Our friendly MNspeak conservatives are (generally) trying to post thoughtful or insightful comments but our not-so-friendly MNspeak liberals are (generally) posting borderline rude mass generalizations about all conservatives at the expense of their own thoughtful and insightful comments.

I don’t think you’re not going to get very far by insulting the other side.

And now back to rising gas prices! (/off-topic)

Freedom and a complete lack of personal responsibility? What happened to the great moral compass the right was supposed to possess? None of us hate the freedoms we possess. We just temper our usage of them with thoughts of how that use might affect other people.

And Josie, while it’s true that most of the folks participating in the discussion here will adjust their budgets accordingly and skip Harry Potter if necessary, there are any number of people without that budget flexibility. I know a few folks who actually have had to park their cars for several days because they literally couldn’t afford gas. And no, they didn’t hop a bus downtown to blow their money on booze.

Not to set off a panic but my wife informed me that a gas station owner near her place of employment said to expect another 15 cent/gallon bump tonight or tomorrow….. I hope that by the time my slowly rusting Pontiac dies that Japan has come up with some fantastic cars that aren’t as heavily dependent on oil.

Sornie may be right. Fill up soon, folks. The cars I’m going to see race around a dirt track on Friday night hardly use any oil — they are running on a 98% ethanol fuel. Not yet street legal, I’m afraid.

God damn it, dennis, I’m not telling anyone how to live or where to live. I’m just sick to death of not having the same kind of privledges because of my own choice (thanks to the fact that people like you make sure as much money as possible is spent to support YOUR lifestyle choice, but not mine).

You people who think that your choice is the obvious correct one and refuse to let any public money be spent to support any other options are the snot-nosed jerks.

At the expense of other things like education

Theres no way to logically demonstrate thats true, unless your saying anything we spend on should actually be spent on education. We tax and levy specifically for education, it isnt going without at the expense of anything.

I can’t stop laughing at this. I think y’all’ll find it appropriate for this thread.

Who forgot to close the italics tag?

The international gasoline supply used to have a large enough inventory such that any inciidents as a refinery going down or a hurricane temporarily knocking out oil wells, etc., wasn’t immediately felt because the surplus served as a buffer. But with the new and emerging middleclasses in India and China buying cars in record numbers and gasoline to power them, the inventories have been reduced to the point where there is no buffer anymore against such incidents. That’s why the gas prices spike when one refinery goes down.

We need more refineries but it takes 8 years and several billions of dollars and miles in environmental and bureaucratic red tape to build one, and the oil companies have decided that building gasoline refineries … in an age of alternative fuel research, is not a very good investment for the stockholders.

Maz: “No, we’re more about freedom. Including freedom of movement.”

Nice to see you back, Maz!

That said, can I assume from your comments above that you support the gay marriage agenda?

I’m sick to death of that refinery excuse. You’d think with record profits they could figure out a way to keep refineries up and running (save for natural disasters). But it seems like a mouse fart could shut those places down.

My wife and I are planning taking a trip around Lake Superior — a driving tour. I’m not looking forward to the gasoline bill. I am looking forward to enjoying the view though.

Bobby_b: “”Peak oil” keeps creeping further out, human inventiveness and intelligence manages to increase food stock, the glacier didn’t come…”

No. Instead, it’s in the process of melting completely.

Aaaaand while I’m posting that comment everyone starts calling each other snot-nosed jerks, so forget it.

Ahaha! Suckers! Gas prices are rising because I got Sadam out of the way and I now control those Iraqi spickets thereby getting to set the oil prices as high as I want!

that cat macro made my day.

Rich, I’m one of those people without budget flexibility. If I was still driving to work every day, I’d be screwed with this rise in gas prices. So I understand that.

However, the guy who works in Minneapolis and bought the big house in Albertville for the family of four plus two dogs probably isn’t one of those people. I worry about rising gas prices because I think there are enough people who can continue to pay with or without some minor lifestyle adjustments to not make a difference to the companies that are jacking up the prices.

Like I said, my problem doesn’t lie with the burbs, per se, it’s with the conscious choice people make to live way the hell out there and commute 40 miles to work each day. And while I’m quite comfy with live and let live as a philosophy when applied to most situations, it doesn’t function as well in this case.

The knock on liberals is: they love humanity, they just don’t particularly like humans.

Case in point.

Aaaaand while I’m posting that comment everyone starts calling each other snot-nosed jerks, so forget it.

We probably shouldn’t. A call for civility is never a bad idea in the face of encroaching and impending idiocy.

That said, can I assume from your comments above that you support the gay marriage agenda?

Sure. No skin off my nose.

Sure. No skin off my nose.

Maz, that’s the most practical thing you’ve ever said. Can you get the rest of the conservatives on board with that one?

Maz: Your consistency is admirable (and I mean that). Consider my teeth pulled.

As Josie says, I wish more Conservatives shared your point of view.

The international gasoline supply

Your joking right? I’m fairly certain that there is no international gas supply. Most gas in America is produced within a few hundred miles of where it is sold.

Now if the price of gas was somehow reflective of the price of crude oil I could buy the fluctuations.

However, the guy who works in Minneapolis and bought the big house in Albertville for the family of four plus two dogs probably isn’t one of those people.

Josie, no question. Those definitely aren’t the people I’m worried about. The big worry, like you said, is that the folks who can’t adjust their budgets (generally) aren’t the people who can bend legislators’ ears and find ways around it. Especially in a metro area like Mpls-St. Paul, being priced out of transportation can be a death knell for anyone on the cusp of poverty.

Speaking of transit, does anyone know how these gas prices could affect our buses? Over the long term are we looking at transit cuts?

My wife and I are planning taking a trip around Lake Superior — a driving tour. I’m not looking forward to the gasoline bill. I am looking forward to enjoying the view though.

Bring a lot of bug spray, Jason. We crossed Superior in the summer off the list a few years ago. The flies were like Black Snow.

Love you too, Erica!

And The Rat, it’s not that I don’t like humans, it’s that I don’t have much faith in them collectively. Given that our legislators (Democrat AND Republican) supposedly represent our collective will, can anyone really blame me?

Probably not transit cuts, but an increase in prices seems probable. Drivers might not get raises either.

That said, MetroTransit is also doing a good job looking into and investing in alternative energy buses, like Hybrid buses. Hopefully that helps keep prices down.

Over the long term are we looking at transit cuts?

As long as TPaw or anyone like him is governor you’re always looking at transit cuts/fare hikes.

Maz, that’s the most practical thing you’ve ever said. Can you get the rest of the conservatives on board with that one?

Craig Westover’s on board. Any others? Lileks?

Most gas in America is produced within a few hundred miles of where it is sold.

You’re wrong my boy. We import about 15% of our nation’s gasoline from foreign refineries because our capacity isn’t sufficient. I’ll find a link or two if you’d like.

in an age of alternative fuel research, is not a very good investment for the stockholders

Not only do I agree with maz on this, I think this statement probably holds the most promise for our environmental future. The MVP of lastnight’s All-Star game received a hybrid Tahoe. Think about that. While I’m sure the hybrid Tahoe isn’t pushing the Prius out of the market place, it’s a sure sign that car makers are responding to the marketplace – a marketplace that is increasingly interested in better fuel efficiency.

Rallies outside state capitals, Bush, and Kyoto have less to do with sea changes than people’s spending habits. I, for one, am hopeful.

Ahaha! Suckers! Gas prices are rising because I got Sadam out of the way and I now control those Iraqi spickets thereby getting to set the oil prices as high as I want!

Welcome to MNspeak, Mr. President.

Much of asia imports MOST of their gasoline.

Why don’t these wealthy oil companies build a few more refineries to help ease this problem? I’ll tell you why. They are getting filthy rich off us by charging us outragous prices for gasoline & oil products. This is why they don’t reinvest in new equipment. They don’t care about what they do to this country and the overall economics. Their actions affects the prices of everything we buy one way or another. From buying food to having your garbage hauled away, and everything in between. If the government doesn’t step in and tell the oil companies they need to invest in some new refineries before some of the old ones are shut down and quit gouging us Americans while making record profits this situation will only get worse . Mass transit may help ease the problem abit, but that alone is not the total solution either. You need gas and its products to heat your house and produce the electicity we all use. It’s not just the gas for your car.

uh, maz, 15% imported means 85% domestically refined, which I would say counts as “most of our gasoline supply”

Can you get the rest of the conservatives on board with that one?

The debate amongst conservatives is between the live-and-let-live libertarians, who generally aren’t very religious anyway, and the social conservatives, who, even if they’re not religious themselves, want to preserve and protect societal institutions, believing that they are what makes america great.

It’s funny because my neioghbor across the alley is a former priest and a left-wing nut who is staunchly pro-life and anti-gay marriage … and I’m the conservative who he likes to characterize as some right-wing zealot, yet it is HE, the bleeping commie, who is the anti-gay, anti-abortion zealot.

heh

Come on Wayne, I was looking for something more than a glib response. Pawlenty isn’t the most transit friendly governor in history by any means, but I’m honestly wondering, if gas prices stay high will it affect bus service?

A call for civility is never a bad idea in the face of encroaching and impending idiocy.

I’m gonna write that down, that’s a good one.

How about the idea I read about breaking up OPEC? Would that cause a glut of use, a collapse in prices or prices to escalate out of control? If we are truly in a global market, taking away the price and production controls OPEC has seems logical. Ultimately, though, vote with what you buy. Buy smart and the rest of the marketplace should follow. It only took forty years for Japan to nearly pass by GM in auto market share and that is a great example of people shopping smarter.

Let’s stay focused on Minnesota’s energy issues, shall we? This may help.

Here’s more on the greener vehicles at the All Star Game, nateek.

Rallies outside state capitals, Bush, and Kyoto have less to do with sea changes than people’s spending habits.

And believe it or not, the best way to expedite the change to hydrogen or whatever alternative fuel we end up with, is to burn the gasoline as fast as possible.

Yup. Conservation is a bad idea if you want change. The faster the supply of oil and gas diminishes, the faster the marketplace will respond with a replacement fuel.

Econ 101.

rich, short answer: yes
their costs will go up but their funding won’t go up as quickly

“I did the math. I figure gas would have to cost about $20 a gallon for it to so affect my finances that I would change my lifestyle because of it. And I ain’t rich like Bartel.”

You’re lying, don’t drive, or still very rich.

Using the average 10,000 miles/yr driving, and let’s say 25 mpg, that’s a $6,800 increase per year (going from $3/gallon). I know very very few people, including many comfortably middle class, who could absorb that kind of increase without making major changes in their lifestyle.

Yup. Conservation is a bad idea if you want change. The faster the supply of oil and gas diminishes, the faster the marketplace will respond with a replacement fuel.

…but if you’re wrong, and a replacement fuel can’t be quickly found for oil and gas, and the global climate is damaged beyond repair, and economies, governments and social order crumples across the globe…

Revelation 16:16

There are a lot of people in the Twin Cities area as well as out state who don’t have a choice but to drive to get where they need to go. There are many elderly and handicapped people who live on a fixed income that this really hurts. They can’t afford these constant increases in gas and many other things. I myself am a handicapped women and use a wheelchair to get around as I lost both of my legs more than a foot above my knees thirty two years ago in 1975 in an auto accident. I don’t want anyone to feel sorry for me as I am still able to work every day and get around quite well in my wheelchair. I am able to use the bus to get to work each day which is actually easier for me. I don’t need to worry about parking and the such. I am lucky I live and work near a decent bus line, many people aren’t that lucky. There are many times though where I must use my gas guzzling van (14 miles per gallon if I’m lucky) equipped with a wheelchair lift so I can get into it and drive. I have places I need to go such as shopping or doctors appointments as well as visting friends once in a while. Something needs to be done to hold down these prices. These gas prices are hurting a lot of people.

While I do feel for lower income people when gas prices rise, I also think its not a completely bad thing. The more gas prices rise, the more people will trend to buying smaller/hybrid cars and using alternative means of transportation. Given the current state of global warming, this would be a favorable trend. I bought my hybrid a couple of years ago before gas prices were so high, but Im sure people in the market today are even more inclined to do so.

I agree with the point that some have made here about the impossibility of consistently living where you work. I live in Uptown and currently work Downtown, so I have multiple commuting choices (bus, bike, car), but Im a consultant so I could be working in the burbs 2 months from now. And if that happens, I will come to love my hybrid even more. I know its not a choice for everyone given their particular financial situation, but for those in the market for a new car, I think its the only sensible option.

It’s funny because my neioghbor across the alley is a former priest and a left-wing nut who is staunchly pro-life and anti-gay marriage … and I’m the conservative who he likes to characterize as some right-wing zealot, yet it is HE, the bleeping commie, who is the anti-gay, anti-abortion zealot.

I suppose that’s what you get when you go and compartmentalize everyone based on a few of their viewpoints.

Mpls Joe, tara_r, sornie … can’t you people read?? I told you why there’s no new refineries and it hasn’t nothing to do with the stupid reasons you gave. jesus.

Here’s the latest mileage charts from EPA for 2007 cars.

Mini Cooper, Toyota Yaris, Toyota Corolla, Ford Focus Wagon are among the non-hybrids scoring most efficient in their class.

The faster the supply of oil and gas diminishes, the faster the marketplace will respond with a replacement fuel.

Econ 101.

It sounds like you never got past econ 101. If you did you might realize that your glorious ‘markets’ can be slow to change when there’s a huge amount of capital tied up in infrastructure for something like gasoline. The faster oil and gas runs out the less time there is to get any sort of real research on alternative energy to a point where it can be used and the less time there is for the appropriate infrastructure to be built. If you use everything up before you’ve got something else to replace it with it’s very very bad. It’s like eating all the food in your house by tuesday when you’re limited to going to the grocery store once a week … on sundays.

Damn Maz! You and I had such cool simpatico going, until the “burn it all in order to force innovation” nature of your comment. I’m not saying I disagree that what you’re saying isn’t absolutely right, perhaps it’s just your tone that throws me.

I simply worry that there are too many loon-bins who actually believe “After the last tree is felled, Christ will come back.” That sort of doomsday attitude could easily fit in the spacious confines of a Suburban XLT.

Also, it’s a poor investment to pour a bunch of capital into new refining capacity if your projections for crude production show it topping out or decreasing. Think about that one for a second.

Mazasapa, not sure why you referenced me in that post as I made no mention of new oil refineries in my post.

“Mpls Joe, tara_r, sornie … can’t you people read?? I told you why there’s no new refineries and it hasn’t nothing to do with the stupid reasons you gave. jesus.”

Actually, there is a definite economic disincentive for the construction of new refineries. Any new refinery capacity can help ease the supply crunch, reducing refinery margins.

That’s one reason why some ag economists are predicting a collapse in the ethanol market in the next year or so: they believe that ethanol production capacity is increasing too fast for the current demand growth, and magins are going to collapse as a result.

I stand corrected, madam. I apologize.

Apology accepted.

Maz: “Yup. Conservation is a bad idea if you want change. The faster the supply of oil and gas diminishes, the faster the marketplace will respond with a replacement fuel.”

Well, that does make the assumption that a replacement fuel can be found and an economy based entirely on fossil fuels can be switched over to it. What people tend to forget is that vastly inefficient though petroleum is as a fuel, it is still the product of hundreds of millions of years of concentrated solar energy. It has the rare ability of being sufficiently powerful in comparatively small volumes to drive engines. Finding a replacement for that is definitely a significant challenge, based on current consumption rates. Current consumption rates are, of course, projected to sharply increase.

I believe that there’s definitely a risk posed by peak oil. Much depends on how oil shale extraction efficiency can be improved while we look increasingly frantically for the next big thing.

C’mon guys with the love. I’m tearing up over here. Where’s Josie now?

Also, maz, I’m on to your secret identity. I know what you did this summer.

Also, it’s a poor investment to pour a bunch of capital into new refining capacity if your projections for crude production show it topping out or decreasing. Think about that one for a second.

But wayne, that was my point. Do you think research is just now getting underway? The oil companies and the auto makers are 5-10 years away, while we have 20-40 years left of oil. They’re ahead of the game. If you want to expedite the process, expedite the burning of the reserves. They will act accordingly.\

There is nothing more able to meet societal needs than a free and open market and players scambling to get their share.

saw a cute young think in a mint green & white summer dress that matched her mint green & white Vespa southbound on Hennepin this morning.

Zounds, I’ve seen her, too! She should be a local icon! She should be featured on promotional material for the Chamber of Commerce as living proof of the high-cheekboned physically-flawless Nordic quality of life in this great city! In the winter, we’ll put her in cream-colored faux-fur Dr. Zhivago hats and have her cross-country skiing, ice-skating and curling with Tapes N’ Tapes.

People will move here in droves for a piece of the good life, demand more trains, and pow! Problems: solved!

Maz, it isn’t the oil prices and record revenues that concern me as pertains to the oil companies. It’s the record profits. Those signify that while oil prices are rising, the oil companies aren’t just raising prices enough to maintain their current revenue streams — they’re raising them to maintain what is traditionally a very high margin. While not profiteering from a strict interpretation of the term, it’s still mildly disturbing when investments in alternative approaches are questionable at best and they aren’t paying the royalties they owe to the public to begin with.

That said, the refinery question isn’t as clear cut as either side wants it to be.

Maz may be right — we often do need to have a crisis before we take action, but the stakes of following the same path unchanged are too high to risk.

As I mentioned before, one of my bosses is on the Governor’s Next Generation Energy Board. I’ll report what’s new on Minnesota’s energy front as I hear more about it.

OK, calm down people! Let’s be civil!

Oh, wait. You are being civil.

All right, back to my nap.

I’m all about that Ford Focus Wagon.

Are we not making max work for his pay?

You guys all suck! I hate you and your city! You’re a communist/fascist/whatever!

I post too much! No one cares about my life/views/everything!

C’mon, someone? anyone?

Also, maz, I’m on to your secret identity. I know what you did this summer.

oh-oh.

I heartily approve of the love-fest.

while we look increasingly frantically for the next big thing.

The next big thing is hydrogen.

Josie: “I heartily approve of the love-fest.”

My car runs on hugs.

Maz, it isn’t the oil prices and record revenues that concern me as pertains to the oil companies. It’s the record profits.

There’s an awful lot of retirees depending on those profits to get them through their retirement years. Maybe your employer holds oil company stocks, eh?

My car runs on hugs.

My bike runs on drugs.

I blame it all on the baby boomers! And the World War Two-ers who remember horse and buggies and therefore refuse to give up their cars.

If you grew up in suburban wasteland/rurual isolation dotted with homogenized chain outlets like I did, you’d love public transportatin and reject automobile culture, too.

I’m a freak. I know.

The next big thing is hydrogen

Hmmm. I thought I smelled a flamable gas in this thread.

“The next big thing is hydrogen.”

Problem is, almost all hydrogen is produced using fossil fuel. Either directly from natural gas, or using fossil fuels to produce the power needed to crack water. As such, hydrogen doesn’t do much to wean us off fossil fuels.

The primary advantage hydrogen would give us, is in reducing the number of point sources for greenhouse gasses.

To that end, I think this deal where every state has its own blend has to go. 1 blend for regular unleaded nationwide.

If you grew up in suburban wasteland/rurual isolation dotted with homogenized chain outlets like I did, you’d love public transportatin and reject automobile culture, too.

I actually couldn’t have said it better myself.

And the next big thing, despite assurances that a bright shiny hydrogen economy is right around the corner, is by no means a sure thing. Fuel cells are still ruinously expensive, relatively delicate, and by no means small enough or efficient enough to power mass market vehicles. And the distribution network needs to be so completely and radically different than our existing one that the retrofits to make hydrogen refills available on the road will take decades to appear throughout the country. We’ll get there, but hydrogen isn’t the guaranteed panacea many seem to hope it is.

And Teucer, that wasn’t a hug I saw you giving your car’s exhaust pipe.

Sorry Maz, I control my retirement plan tightly, and work at an employee owned company, so there’s no oil in my portfolio, or my employer’s. A few industrial think tanks looking at alternative energy are, however. So is Jack Daniels though. There’s a stock that’ll never fail.

“My car runs on hugs. “

Yeah, that sounded a bit snarky and it wasn’t supposed to at all. I was just pleased by the idea of a society powered on civility and love-ins.

To that end, I think this deal where every state has its own blend has to go. 1 blend for regular unleaded nationwide.

Yup. You can blame the environmentalist wackos for the high gas prices due to the vast number of blends required by law they pushed through. Get a rope.

Maz: “The next big thing is hydrogen.”

I guess we’ll have to wait and see, now won’t we? After all, I believe that the efficiency curve for hydrogen extraction isn’t even close to petroleum extraction and refining, nor is it projected to be. It takes a lot less energy to extract and refine petroleum than it does to create hydrogen.

Silly bob, you can’t smell hydrogen!

My car runs on hugs.

My bike runs on drugs.

And in my ‘hood there are thugs!

You also can’t run american car culture on it because it takes a lot more energy input to produce it than it does to pump and refine oil into gasoline. So for the same amount of driving you need x% more energy input in the backend. I guess if they built a shit-ton of nuke plants to provide the capacity, but somehow after all that hubub “clean nucular[sic] energy” I don’t think that’s going anywhere yet.

The world needs to have more hugs.

“At the expense of other things like education . . .“

Not zero-sum, Wayne. A dollar spent on chocolate isn’t what keeps that dollar from being spent on education.

“Ha. Do you think you came up with the WANTS and the PLEASES? Those ideas were sold to you to make somebody else rich.“

Realizing that you’ve fallen back on the “you’re not REALLY happy, you know, it’s just an illusion” argument must be disillusioning. You can defend YOUR ideals as being original, but I can’t? That’s all ya’ got?

“Bobby, I hate to rain on your parade, but the doomsday predictions haven’t hit here because we have the money to avoid them.“

You can’t eat money. “Having money” merely represents that someone was willing to trade something to you for something you had. We “had the money” because our society encourages productivity and innovation, which were what kept the predictions from being true.

“Take a look at the quality of life around the world and you’ll see something far different than what you see in your daily life.“

Perhaps you should take that look. Take that look at things like the UN stats on world hunger. A nice, significant downward slope, to the lowest point in measured history. Also at the UN stats on things like deaths from war or conflict (way down), or deaths from disease (way down). We simply redefine “wretched” with each advance, so that now a family eating well and owning three TV’s can be called “poor.” Sure, some people’s lives suck, but there’s fewer of them than ever before, and we tend to address the suckiness more effectively than we did in the past.

“You people who think that your choice is the obvious correct one and refuse to let any public money be spent to support any other options are the snot-nosed jerks.”

First, there’s no such thing as “public money.” There’s money the “public” has taken from me and other people who produce something, but, interestingly, you seem unwilling to recognize that we’re “the public”, too. Next, money is what you get when someone sees value in what you do, such that it’s worthwhile for them to trade money for it. It’s not something that appears on my trees ‘cuz I live in EP. I went through school to the point of being utterly sick of it, worked my butt off, and now use that training to perform work for others that saves them or makes them money, and so they pay me a salary. You want all the benefits and fun of the money without the hard work, pain, and ability, and, frankly, that’s called freeloading. Food and oil and lumber and X-Boxes exist because someone worked to produce them. If you’re equating the value of a person who produces food for society with someone who merely eats that food, there’s a definitional gap we ain’t never going to bridge.

- – - -

Oh, and, of course gays should be able to marry. Why should us heteros be the only ones suffering?

ahh! quit stealin my posts while I’m typin them!

Silly bob, you can’t smell hydrogen!

I guess it was something else, then. Nevermind.

Hydrogen’s going to be tricky, since you use fossil fuels to make it and then it gives off carbon once you use it. I’m not saying it’s not going to work. But it’s not going to work anytime soon. In the meantime, I say we all drive these.

I am all about the SLP, too. With its easy connections to Mpls and a few of them big boxy stores that we find ourselves at way too much and its sunny wi-fi and future dreams of LRT slicing its way through town.

Unfortunately, I chose one of those SLP houses with a big-ish yard. So, while I save on my commute, higher gas prices get me in my quest to keep our yard from becoming a jungle…unless…I could just make it a creeping charlie yard…hmm…

That’s one reason why some ag economists are predicting a collapse in the ethanol market in the next year or so: they believe that ethanol production capacity is increasing too fast for the current demand growth, and magins are going to collapse as a result.

My dad is doing grade work for a new ethanol plant in NW Iowa that will produce 100 million gallons of ethanol annualy.

I am also shocked – SHOCKED – that a thread has surpassed 200 comments with nary of mention of s**.

methane, on the other hand …

I am hot for nuclear fusion. Sweet, sweet fusion. *dribble*

But the technology is a long way from being proven.

When I was a kid growing up in the sixties most families had only one car. Sure it didn’t always get the best mileage but our family needed a big car as there were four of us kids as well as my parents to ride in it. Most families on our block where I grew up in Minneapolis had at least three or four kids. Some had more. A big roomy car was needed. My dad drove it to work everyday (about four miles each way) hardly a long comute as lots of folks have now. My folks used it for shopping on Friday nights and church on Sunday. My mom knew how to drive, but drov very little. There were a few that might have had two cars, and even fewer that had boats and other gas guzzling equipment. We and many others even used push lawn mowers (with no motor) to mow our grass. This could be hard work for some but it was good exercise for a teenage boy. Nowadays it seems every family has two or more cars, trucks or SUV’s as well as other gas guzzling toys as boats, four wheelers, snow mobiles and such. Perhaps if everyone would cut back, just a little on their use of these toys and their cars there would be far more gas available, most likely at a cheaper price as well.

Richg: That’s not an uncommon sight among Prius owners. We’re, um… er… improving fuel efficiency via a tailpipe injecting system. Yeah, that’s it. Fuel efficiency.

I actually couldn’t have said it better myself.

Oh. My. God. I’m the female version of Wayne. Except for that math stuff.

Yeah, I’ve heard Prius owners are rather passionate about the vehicles…

I imagine more people will start carpooling.

I read this as, “I image people will start canoeing.”

To that end, I think this deal where every state has its own blend has to go. 1 blend for regular unleaded nationwide

Ok. E10 everywhere, like MInnesota does now. It will cut gas use by 10 percent, make the gas burn a little cleaner, and provide a market for that new ethanol plant Kevin’s dad is moving earth for in Iowa.

“My dad is doing grade work for a new ethanol plant in NW Iowa that will produce 100 million gallons of ethanol annualy.

I am also shocked – SHOCKED – that a thread has surpassed 200 comments with nary of mention of s**. “

“We expect the relentless supply of new ethanol production capacity will lead to a 70 percent decline in [profit] margins by 2009,” Bank of America analyst Eric Brown wrote in a recent report.

Pointing to corn prices that have nearly doubled since 2005, researchers at Iowa State University also have raised concerns about narrowing margins for ethanol producers whose raw material is corn.

In the words of the head of the think tank International Energy Research and Development, Burt Bacharach: “What this world needs now, is love, sweet love. And a Tokomak-based fusion reactor/hydrogen fuel cell-based switch in the global economy.”

The first step is going to be something like the Chevy Volt. That is, an electric vehicle with an on-board generator. At the start this generator will be burning gas. However, this can be converted to anything. In the end, fully electric vehicles are the future. It doesn’t matter what generates the power. It could be Hydrogen, it could be methane, it could be garbage, it could be fusion, it just wouldn’t matter.

Hydrogen fuel cells, will never pan out. The problems with bio-fuels has been discussed to death. No one would ever buy a car with a nuclear reactor inside. Electric just makes sense…

Richg: “Yeah, I’ve heard Prius owners are rather passionate about the vehicles…”

Page 24 of the Owner’s manual – the chapter is entitled “Nothing That Feels So Right Could Be Wrong.”

I read this as, “I image people will start canoeing.”

Hopefully they will. I went out boating in the Mississippi this weekend in a tiny fiberglass craft, and it was splendid. As with biking, I also boat in a suit, which was completely trashed by the end from sand, water and other river things. I have never felt more alive.

Anyway, I work at the U, so there’s no reason why I shouldn’t be able put the canoe on the bus, ride down to the river, and then boat upstream to work everyday. I would be a hero in my filthy river suits. Maybe the scooter girl would even marry me.

You should note that the Chevy Volt can also run on E85, Doug.

I agree with DouglasG. When I was but a wee lad, I lived on a submarine. We made our own oxygen by splitting sea water into oxygen and hydrogen. We kept the oxygen and shitcanned the hydrogen over the side.

The oxygen generator was a relatively simple device that used a electrochemical reaction to split the sea water. It received it’s electrical power via our nuclear power plant.

If we could do it 35 years ago, we can do it now. I don’t understand all the fuss, frankly.

Maybe I should just mix up a batch of my grandfathers shine like he and other of my relatives made in the thirties. Old family stories tell us how they would run their cars on this exotic mixture they made to sell for people to drink during prohabition and go blasting down the roads outrunning the local police or ATF people while making their deliveries north of the twin cities. If that don’t work I could feel real good after drinking some of it and not know or care what I might be paying for gas.

DouglasG: “No one would ever buy a car with a nuclear reactor inside.”

I would. It sounds both futuristic and cool. Plus, I bet everyone else around me would drive very politely and defensively.

I am not sure that it’s quite clear yet that the hydrogen fuel economy is a bust but I think it would require large scale nuclear plant adoption first, either using fusion or fission. Or both.

Sorry Bob. My bad. It is the hybrid designed correctly. It is a lot less complicated drive system than the Prius. However, you could probably still love the Volt the same way you Prius owners do your cars.

Can’t remember who was asking, but Metro Transit essentially purchases their fuel in advance- at a set price, based on a three-year contract (I think- not sure on the exact length of the contract). I also think they recently signed a new contract. It’s not the only reason fares might go up, but it helps to keep things relatively stable.

Maz: If the federal government invested just half of what it payed for you old boat in alternative energy research, we might be closer to an answer now.

PS: same for my old tanks.

GO NAVY!

It’s a good people like the folks at IREE are doing research into prairie grasses and cellulosic (crop waste) ethanol to get around the corn problem.

If we could do it 35 years ago, we can do it now

If this was only true of my body.

Maz: “I agree with DouglasG. When I was but a wee lad, I lived on a submarine. We made our own oxygen by splitting sea water into oxygen and hydrogen. We kept the oxygen and shitcanned the hydrogen over the side.”

*grin*

When I was a lad, we had to make our own oxygen. And we had to account for every single neutron!

If we could do it 35 years ago, we can do it now. I don’t understand all the fuss, frankly.

it’s all about volume. the amount of hydrogen necessary for everyone to drive as much as they do is astounding.

If we could do it 35 years ago, we can do it now

If this was only true of my body.

Heh! Quote of the thread!

“Metro Transit essentially purchases their fuel in advance“

So did every airline but NWA, which lacked the cash during the last price valley. Thus, bankruptcy.

“When I was a lad, we had to make our own oxygen. And we had to account for every single neutron! “

And the methane was THIS deep every winter, and we had to emit it uphill both ways . . .

And we had to carry our own heavy water, uphill, both ways!

Good point, Wayne. The amount of oxygen necessary to keep a submarine crew from asphyxiating in their own CO2 waste pales in comparison to the amount of hydrogen you’d need to pull out of the water.

Not to mention, given the lack of water in many parts of the world, and the issues with transporting large amounts of hydrogen, you again have a major distribution problem. Plus potentially creating a scarcity of another resource altogether.

Fuel vs Eating – Ethanol
Fuel vs Drinking – Hydrogen (from water)

No problems there…

In the town where I was born,
Lived a Maz who sailed to sea,
And he told us of his life,
In the land of submarines,

Perhaps we can merge the entirety of MNSpeak’s lively chatter today into one ginormous new concept:

MNSpeak buys an entire downtown condo where no one can sell their units anyways since the market sucks and then we can all live in an urban compound and ditch our cars. If nothing else, our computers would work really well.

When this happens, grote and I will be up on the roof listening to tunes and drinking beer out of our Mower Helmets.

Maz, your post about 15 pages up from here referenced me in something about refineries which I never mentioned. Could I get some of the apology you handed out to tara?

As for an all-encompassing solution to curb the use of fossil fuels there isn’t one. It’s going to be a bunch of different solutions but plug-in electric cars, if the mileage capabilities increase, would be a great solution using wind, solar and a hodgepodge of other energy solutions. ANd if gas prices go up much more I’m going to be the guy that shows up next weekend at my buddy’s cabin with Busch Light in hand and I don’t want to have to explain that.

I also boat in a suit, which was completely trashed by the end from sand, water and other river things. I have never felt more alive.

This should have been captured on film.

Fuel vs Eating – Ethanol
Fuel vs Drinking – Hydrogen (from water)

what about fuel vs drinking? Ethanol! woo woo gun get toore up!

Nuke power generation, technological advancement in LD transmission and storage, and a brand-new, accessible-all-over power grid, with dense-area electrified-source roadways and open-area plugin points.

Combined with electrical heating/AC, this is really the only viable way to stop burning HC’s, emitting pollutants, financing despots, and wiping out tortilla plants.

Perhaps on Nicollet Island, so that I can test my “legal” fireworks’ ability to reach the Federal Reserve building across the river…or at least Phyllis Kahn’s chicken coop.

It will all be captured in my upcoming autobiographical documentary, Minneapolis By Suit: Filthy Tweed Travels From Linden Hill to Prospect Park. There’s also a good scene where I cycle off the Stone Arch Bridge by accident because I’m eating pierogies and they burn my hand, and when you think I’m dead, I reappear on the Endless Bridge at the Guthrie doing the mashed potato with a bunch of go-go dancers in fur hats with the Castaways playing “Liar Liar 2007,” with a lot of really fast camera zooms. It’s so awesome. Local flavor. Delicious.

Oh, and, of course gays should be able to marry. Why should us heteros be the only ones suffering?

so would you say that “gay marriage” is an oxymoron, but “Gay Marriage” is ok with you?

So he sailed from Holy loch,
Till he found the Barents sea,
And he lurked beneath the waves,
In his nuclear submarine

He once lived in a nuclear submarine,
Nuclear submarine, nuclear submarine,
He once lived in a nuclear submarine,
Nuclear submarine, nuclear submarine,

And our nukes were all aboard,
As we skulked off their seaboard
Awaiting a launch order every day.

And we lived a life of men,
Making all our oxygen (our oxygen)
And our leave, it will accrue (will accrue),
It’s a secret, where we’ve been (where we’ve been)
As we sail beneath the waves (beneath the waves)
In our nuclear (in our nuclear) submarine (submarine)

Everything should absolutely be done in a suit, like traveling, eating cereal and watching reruns of Blind Date, but dressing up to play “Bulter” should be at the top of that list.

Ok, this thread just went WAY OFF the deep end!

Aye Scawtlun!

“so would you say that “gay marriage” is an oxymoron, but “Gay Marriage” is ok with you?“

I’d have to ask my wife about that. Sorry.

Oh my goodness, what am I gonna to do in a submarine?

Andy, your documentary better have a cameo with Steve the craigslist bike guy.

I personally wish running were a more practical method of commuting. It’s that damn sweat factor.

One bright bit of news for suburban soccer moms (and dads): the price of new minivans are going down. What’s more, they can run on E85.

dood, a bunch of us recently were traveling together so we rented a minivan — I think it was a Nissan Quest (?) — it was sweet. It was nothing like the one that my family packed into when I was younger.