Secrets of the City

This and not negotiating drug pricing to medicare are the number one reason why drug prices and health care costs are so high…they should be ashamed of themselves…

Oh, and if all that money was really going to research and not paying for some executive’s beach house, we’d have a cure for cancer, AIDS, and the common cold by now…can you tell I’m bitter about this?

Didn’t the Times write an article a lot like this about a month ago?

This is an expansion of the last Times article which named many doctors who had taken money from drug companies. This one particularly mentions doctors who had been sanctioned for improper prescriptions and yet the drug companies continued to employ them.

The irony is that the only reason the Times can do this big expose is because MN is one of two states that keeps any records on payments to docs from pharma.

As the article mentions, the problem is certainly nationwide and possible much worse in other states … but it’s our fair state that gets the black eye.

Still, it’s a good thing overall for this issue to be discussed.

Allie, I doubt the correlation is as high as you claim. But if you need an outlet, by all means, outlet away.

I thought no one read newspapers? Huh…

This site is SO hypocritical! Celebrate the decline of newspapers and spend all day quoting from them?

zing, snap. oh, rachel, you got us…not. quoting an on line publication is different than reading a newsPAPER.

why haven’t other states passed legislation like MN? Is it forthcoming?

I hate to defend them in any way, but research is pretty damn expensive. The marketing margins are ridiculously high, though (in this country).

Have we really been celebrating the decline of the newspaper? I’m not sure where you’re getting that from, Rachel.

See, this is why I only patronize the witch doctor.

Other states haven’t passed legislation because this issue has flown under the radar for a long time. Not anymore, I’d guess. But pharma does have a few lobbyists and few dollars to throw around, so it’s not a slam dunk that we’ll see any new legislation passed anytime soon.

Erica I hear your point, but I think the question is not whether research is expensive but rather who is doing the research.

I hate to defend them in any way, but research is pretty damn expensive.

Part of this, at least in some industries (I’m not familiar with pharma research personally), is that companies overpay older scientists who have been around for a while but don’t really do that much and then make up for that by underpaying the rest of the staff that does the majority of the actual work. I know it’s about paying dues, but some of these people are six-figure drains on the bottom line.

In the old days, drug companies had strict regulation upon how they could advertise. With those restrictions lifted, they spend a huge amount of money in advertising. THIS is one of the major reasons drug prices have soared.

“Have we really been celebrating the decline of the newspaper? I’m not sure where you’re getting that from, Rachel.”

There certainly are some here (not everyone) that seem pretty gleeful at the problems newspapers have been facing, particularily the two local dailies.

Erica I hear your point, but I think the question is not whether research is expensive but rather who is doing the research.

Kinda like all the hydrogen research BP-Amoco is supposedly doing with it’s billion dollars in annual profit?

I just toured my parent company’s R&D lab and the folks there were literally talking excitedly about how they’re going to cure cancer. Discovering a new compound is a lengthy, iterative process that requires fancy toys and consumes a lot of time and materials and, presumably, brain power. Spendy.

At the same time, a handful of six-figure-salaried scientists is a drop in the bucket, frankly. I’d guess the marketing team spent more to plaster the company’s logo all over Penn Station for a week.

The next day the CEO made mention of the market they created for their star product.

(Also, I’m bitter this week because I just found out I’m being underpaid by about $9k.)

It could be worse, Erica. You could be getting underpaid by about (at least) 20k like me!

two things….

Msbarber, you are not being entirely honest with Rachel. There does seem to be a certain amount of glee here with the problem at the Star Tribune while ignoring problems with declining television and radio audiences. Big dailies do serve the public interest. Who else has the resources to cover the big stories effectively?

As for the local crooked doctors, is anyone really that suprised? Until the American people get off their asses, lobbyists will be running this country.

“I hate to defend them in any way . . .“

Interesting comment, which I’m fairly sure expresses a sentiment shared by many here.

Our quality and length of life have been improved hugely over the last fifty years, due in large part to the development of complex, expensive-to-produce drugs which very effectively address the problems at which they’re aimed. Take away those drugs, and we’d all be sicker, weaker, deader, have smaller erections, and probably smell bad.

And yet, the prevailing attitude leads otherwise intelligent people to treat the makers of those drugs like pedophiles, and to apologize for saying something good about them. How about considering the idea that, given how much value those drugs have added to all of our lives, maybe we’re getting by cheaply?

I know there has been some glee in the comments, but that hardly represents the editorial viewpoint of MnSpeak. Matt regularly posted to stories about changes in the local media, and none of them, to my recollection, were celebratory.

Participants on this site are entitled to their opinions, and to express them, but this shouldn’t be misunderstood as being the viewpoints of the site as a whole.

It took them like three years to make iPhone, so I can see how curing cancer might take a while.

Kevin- if you follow conspiracy theory, it’s not fiscally responsible to cure the big diseases in that a single round of chemo can cost up to 15K and AIDs drugs are almost as high. They’re getting rich off the countries that can afford to pay, and yes, I’m quite sure the corelation between the amount of money they throw at doctors and at advertisement can seriously hamper the amount of money they could be throwing at a pesky little thing like research…but, don’t listen to me, it’s not like I don’t work in the industry or anything…

One of the huge problems with ‘the market’ is that the invisible hand usually works to keep public companies from thinking long term. Most shareholders are less worried about profits 5 years from now than they are about profits now.

Kickbacks to doctors and marketing translate into immediate profits. R&D translates into potential profit sometime in the future. Which do you think the CEO compensation plans emphasize?

Just another example of the magic of the market failing the people. (and I’ll turn off my Marx for the day, except for Groucho)

Alie, my stance on all conspiracies is that they make sense until you actually think about them.

Ads, for what they cost, probably bring in money for drug companies, or else they wouldn’t pay to make them. One could argue the virtue of advertising medical drugs, but the assertion that advertising is a net financial loss is, IMO, a little unlikely. Your original claim was that doctor payouts and not negotiating medicare drug prices were the cause of high health care costs. That’s what I was referring to when I said it’s probably a little more complicated than that. But what do I know, I work in government, where we can’t constrain the cost of anything.

My uncle worked at a pharmaceutical, finding cures for cancer. His budget was jack and shit compared to the people down the hall working on things like limpdick and baldness. Paired with the ridiculous benefits to doctors, and sky-high earnings for investors, the limited amount of resources allocated to life-saving drugs (not to mention pricing drugs so sick people can’t actually afford them) makes people dislike the industry.

Sorry, that was the most poorly-worded sentence ever.

I don’t dislike the industry. It keeps me from going (even more) totally crazy. That, my friends, is a GOOD thing.

Until the American people get off their asses, lobbyists will be running this country.

hahahah. Who do you think the lobbiests work for but the american people? Tell your organized labor, senior citizens and socialized medicine lobbiests to stay home and I’ll tell the NRA and the chamber of commerce to stay home.

Our quality and length of life have been improved hugely over the last fifty years, due in large part to the development of complex, expensive-to-produce drugs which very effectively address the problems at which they’re aimed. Take away those drugs, and we’d all be sicker, weaker, deader, have smaller erections, and probably smell bad.

I actually don’t think drugs have done much to lengthen the average life span as compared to enforcement of environmental and work place laws. Most drugs are only expanding the last worst years of your life or else keep people alive long enough to breed and pass on the weak genes that caused the health issues in the first place.

I didn’t say they were responsible for high health care costs, just high drug prices. The cause of high health care is another rant, altogether…

That depends on whether you want to take the historical view or not. Yes, most of the really important drugs and vaccines are now generics, but they are still developed and produced by drug companies. There was a time when Polio, Yellow Fever and Scarlet Fever kept infant mortality pretty high in this country. Improved sanitation and drug options FTW.

“I actually don’t think drugs have done much to lengthen the average life span as compared to enforcement of environmental and work place laws.“

Hypertension. Diabetes. Malaria. All high-volume killers, all now addressable to a large extent with drugs.

Plus, the newer antibiotics alone have saved millions.

Oops, I did say health care…I meant drug costs…what I say and what I mean are often 2 different things…thank my company’s draconean (sp?) internet rules for that one…

Allie, I’ll try to do a better job of reading your mind via MNSpeak.

Plus, the newer antibiotics alone have saved millions.

They’ll have to, since the older, less expensive ones are now ineffective to some diseases due to over-use…jus’ sayin…

“They’ll have to, since the older, less expensive ones are now ineffective to some diseases due to over-use…jus’ sayin…“

And they were overused because they were so damned effective at wiping out what had been killer infections that people just gobbled them down.

(If I come up with a new drug that cures every known disease, are you gonna say “yeah, but it probably comes in a childproof bottle – what a pain”?)

Thanks, Kevin, that’ll help alot…

Bobby_b, wasn’t arguing, just qualifying, and yah, now that you mention it, those bottles are a pain in the ass…

Plus, someone pissed in my Cheerios this morning, and I’m in the mood to argue, just for arguing’s sake…

“I’m in the mood to argue, just for arguing’s sake… “

Shut up. You are not.

(Your turn.)

YES! Our two pharmaceutical reps – booby b and his trusty sidekick Mazappaza – are defending Phizer and every other crooked corporate entity with their rambling, incoherent commentary.

We are ranked 37th by the World Health Organization, but is the most expensive.

WE ARE GETTING SCREWED!!!!

They are afraid of Lipitor from Canada? Lipitor is produced in one place – IRELAND! It’s the same damn Lipitor regardless of whether you get it in Canada or the US. Except you give up your left tit to buy it here…..

Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.

Am so Bobby…you stink too…

Doug- shove it, I’m not being contradictory…haha

Plus, someone pissed in my Cheerios this morning,

sorry, that was me.

Wayne, I knew it, now you’re on my list…

your list for what?

ps-drinks?

My secret list…

Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.

No it isn’t.

“Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.”

(short pause)

No it isn’t.

Curse you Max. CURRRRSE YOU!

I’m not saying that we shouldn’t spend money developing drugs that clearly make people’s lives better and make the world a better place to live.

I’m saying that I would hope that the merits of a drug would speak for itself, that doctors would be educated about it and prescribe it responsibly, and that the government would aid in communication when a drug (e.g., flu vaccine) is playing a role in public health concern. Maybe a third party (government? universities?) should be more involved in navigating that relationship.

The reality is that drug development alone is really expensive and that we spend a lot of money on marketing that maybe ought to be spent elsewhere. Does it really make sense that someone sees a commercial with a glowy magic butterfly or a wavy field of wheat and goes to their doctor to ask for it and they’re really not even sure what it does exactly?

I just don’t feel good about the way that works.

Today’s Viagra profits are not paying for tomorrow’s cancer cure. They’re backpaying for the development of Viagra.

I just get tired of hearing pharma execs talk out of one side of their mouths about the service their doing for society and then talk about how they’re changing/saving lives. If you’re doing the public that great a service, than stop charging them up the ass for it!

Not that I’m advocating heavier government regulation of the industry. Capitalism, blah blah blah. Is a drug company gonna operate in non-profit mode out of the goodness of the CEO’s heart? Doesn’t work that way. I don’t think that’s even possible. I don’t know where the happy medium is. It’s all so disingenuous.

[Insert pre-emptive "Fuck off, maz" comment here.]

we’re all pretty sassy today, aren’t we?

Wayne’s desperation grows more evident by the day as now he hits on the MNSpeak lesbian.

Wayne’s desperation grows more evident by the day as now he hits on the MNSpeak lesbian.

I’d like to see you prove that Kevin…that’s a pretty bold statement for someone who knows virtually nothing about me…

And I’m straight, BTW, I only kissed girls in college…

If Kevin doesn’t have any luck with you, you automatically become a lesbian. Them’s the rules…

I also only kissed girls in college.

Well, now that I know…I get first dibs on Josie and Hedy…

no, ericam is the board lesbian

I’m less sassy and more depressed than anything else.

no, ericam is the board lesbian

My ears were burnin’.

Do I get a crown or a paper plate or something with that title?

Paper plate. I’ll give it to you at the first MnSpeak get together evar.

And now that I said all that, I found this in the Strib on Medtronic and direct-to-consumer marketing.

I also only kissed girls in college

Sheesh…I suck at commentiing today, I meant to say “The only time I kissed girls, was in college…” But the other way was funnier, I admit…

Wayne, I’m sure there are many pharmaceuticals out there that you could take for your depression…

Oops, I got alie and erica confused. My mistake.

If Kevin doesn’t have any luck with you, you automatically become a lesbian. Them’s the rules…

That has never been proven true. If it had been, there’d be a lot more lesbians.

Kwatt, no problem…

Oops, I got alie and erica confused.

You need to come out and meet them in the flesh, kev. Wayne, too.

You need to come out and meet them in the flesh, kev. Wayne, too.

I don’t need to come out on anything, BOB.

Bob said “flesh.” Hee!

(blushing)

Well, now that I know…I get first dibs on Josie and Hedy…

Cripes, I keep telling you people I’m off the market.

Josie, let me translate this to something guys can actually understand:

Guys, somebody’s already hanging on Josie’s rack.

You just gotta know how to talk to ‘em is all.

Kevin, that’s disgusting. Thanks.

Josie- your bf will tell you that it’s not cheating if it’s girl on girl…haha!

For all you guys know, I could be practicing celibacy in order to find a higher calling in this life. I never said I had a “bf”. I’m just off the market!

Or maybe I’m just really tired of being the token girl-MNSpeakers-want-to-bone-in-an-imaginary-Internet-kind-of-way.

It’s all such a mystery!

Man, what is about about Josie that turns everybody creepy?

Josie- you mean the novelty of male-internet-masterbatory fantasy has worn off on you? Hmmm…

Oh, hope that wasn’t creepy…just trying to kid around…

Man, what is about about Josie that turns everybody creepy?

Dude…seriously. All I want to do is make some LOLcats.

(no offense taken, Alie.)

Oh you like LOLcats? You ain’t see nothing yet!

YOU WILL BE HYPNOTIZED BY NOODLE KITTY!

Kittens!!!!!

Kevin, that’s disgusting. Thanks.

Don’t mention it. I’m just trying to bridge the communication gap between men and women. And, for the record, I don’t fantasize about you, but I’m willing to make certain concessions if you’re willing to give up what you know about LOST that I don’t.

Even if I did know something about LOST that you don’t, that’s totally not necessary.

Man, what is about about Josie that turns everybody creepy?

I don’t need Josie’s help, I’m just naturally creepy…

Holy crap, I just realized that josie and I are the only chicks in this thread since Erica took off…christ…

Does anyone else think that Lipitor sounds like the name of some 1950s evil villain? No? Bastards.

Even if I did know something about LOST that you don’t, that’s totally not necessary.

Hmmm…very coy. Very coy. I respond by rescinding my offer. I will not make concessions and will continue not fantasizing about you.

Yeah, I had “work” to do….

Guys are funny sometimes. Until they’re threatening. Sheesh.

I’m never threatening.

Just ask bob, I’m like a big ol’ furry puppy.

“Does anyone else think that Lipitor sounds like the name of some 1950s evil villain?”

Who gets his ass kicked by super hero Vytorin.

Until they can positively link Lipitor and the rest of those cholesterol reducing drugs to ACTUALLY preventing heart disease no one should be taking them! They have been shown to help for people WITH heart disease, but high cholesterol does not mean that heart disease is immanent. Some people have naturally high cholesterol numbers, but that does not necessarily translate into a build-up of plaque in the arteries.

(Everyone knows it was Cialis that defeated Lipitor…)

I’m reminded of that “Porn Star or My Little Pony?” quiz.

“Until they can positively link Lipitor and the rest of those cholesterol reducing drugs to ACTUALLY preventing heart disease no one should be taking them! They have been shown to help for people WITH heart disease, but high cholesterol does not mean that heart disease is immanent. Some people have naturally high cholesterol numbers, but that does not necessarily translate into a build-up of plaque in the arteries.”

I’d say the evidence for their benefits is pretty strong. Certainly strong enough for me to not quit filling my script.

“Maybe a third party (government? universities?) should be more involved in navigating that relationship.“

Uh huh. I want John Murtha, Barbara Boxer, and Alcee Hastings deciding which drugs I should be taking. (”Well, which manufacturer has the best diversity program, puts up the most global warming posters, and has contributed the most to our re-election campaign?”

Universities are already at the head of the grant lists for drug research. They represent one part of the competition as entities work to develop drugs. Giving them a larger role would simply make them the BSD among to competitors, and, again, I do not think that goverment as BSD ever really benefits people outside of government.

No, he’s just pining for the fjords.

(Yes, that was gratuitous. I leave and the Python jokes start.)

To quote that link:

1994 study called the Scandinavian Simvastatin Survival Study (also called 4S) found that lowering cholesterol can prevent heart attacks and reduce death in men and women who already have heart disease and high cholesterol. (Emphasis mine.)

Is the risk of muscle problems and/or liver problems worth the risk when it has not been shown to be a benefit to those WITHOUT heart disease? Further, only Lipitor has been shown to have this benefit the rest have not.

I was just pointing out the facts, I didn’t expect some sort of Spanish Inquisition…

“Is the risk of muscle problems and/or liver problems worth the risk when it has not been shown to be a benefit to those WITHOUT heart disease?”

That’s why you have periodic blood work. And really, the risks aren’t that great. In fact, a 10mg dose of simvastatin can be obtained OTC in the UK.

People with multiple risk factors, can expect similar benefits as those with heart disease, even if they do not currently have heart disease.

Further, only Lipitor has been shown to have this benefit the rest have not.

Simvastatin (zocor, vytorin) has also received the same approval by the FDA as lipitor. Not surprising, as they both target the same enzyme in the cholesterol synthesis pathway,as do the other statins.

“I was just pointing out the facts, I didn’t expect some sort of Spanish Inquisition…”

No inquisition. I jsut felt you were over stating the risks, and understating the benefits.

Sure, not everyone with high cholesterol will develop heart disease, nor does everyone who smokes, even for decades, develop lung cancer, but they are both significant risk factors that increase the chances.

As I said, I havne’t seen anythingthat would convince me to stop filling my scrip.

What if Lipitor caused man boobs? Would that do it for you? Hee hee!

Well, since I’m not on Lipitor, I guess I don’t have to worry…Though that might strip clubs superfluous.

But, yeah, if another Vioxx situation were to arise, I’d reconsider. I didn’t say I couldn’t be convinced. I just haven’t seen any thing that would so far.

Yo Booby!

You want Phizer to decide what you take and for how much?

How about COMPETITION? Let the drugs come in from all over. Isn’t that what you right-wing wingnuts cry about all the time?

competition is great unless there’s an opportunity for republicans to screw with the laws to benefit their rich friends in industry, who will in turn give them lots of money to get reelected because they’re rolling in cash they made from the screwed-up market conditions their republican buddies set up.

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!

aaaaand we’re at 100…