Secrets of the City

How much did we spend on that equipment again? And who paid for it?

I wonder if this will have any ramifications outside of Minnesota. They have the photocop thing in Los Angeles; I had a few friends who got busted running what they thought were yellow lights and ended up with $300+ tickets.

It’s a pretty narrow decision… basically says the city’s law is trumped by state law. If the state passes a law, that’ll likely end up in court too over the bigger constitutional issue. That would have national implications.

((By the way– if anyone out there ever got a photo cop ticket and would like to be on TV tonight, send an e-mail to WCCO.))

Yea! Great job Minneapolis City Council and Mayor! Had safety been the main concern in the first place perhaps changing the light times to more time on the yellow as has been done in other places, and shown to reduce accidents by the same rate as photocop, would have been implemented. Instead they tried to open a new revenue source.

How is this a violation of anyone’s rights? operating a motor vehicle is a privledge subject to regulation, not a right. enforcing traffic laws, such as via photocop, is just proper regulation of automobile usage.

I agree wayne, now lets put those camera’s to work and start ticketing jaywalkers and bike riders that violate the laws as well…

you just hate the car driving masses so much don’t you…are you sure you weren’t somehow beaten by a car when you were little? Otherwise I can’t understand the mentality.

people adapt to longer yellows. after a while they see a yellow and think “Hell, I’ve got plenty of time to skate up to and through it!” and continue to run reds.

This makes me sad. I’ve gotten to be friends with the photo cop robot who lives right outside my apartment.

This same issue is coming up in Ohio. The issue here is about burden of proof. The Minneapolis Photo Cop law shifts the burden to the owner of the car to prove he/she was NOT driving the car.

the last time I saw a jaywalker kill anyone was way back in …

wait, no, that doesn’t happen. automobile use is regulated because of safety concerns. walking is not dangerous.

you just hate the car driving masses so much don’t you…are you sure you weren’t somehow beaten by a car when you were little? Otherwise I can’t understand the mentality.

car culture is disgusting and degrading. I don’t hate cars or drivers, I hate what the built environment became to accomodate them (and ONLY them). they tore down city cores to build parking lots, eviscerated neighbourhoods to build highways to funnel people to the newly cleared parking lots from their newly-built detached single-family home on what used to be prime farmland near enough to supply the city with food.

and there’s nothing like walking to stores that are set hundreds of feet off the road behind a giant parking lot, either. or the total lack of community interaction that comes from everyone being in a little single-occupant auto bubble. your neighbours become your adversaries, jockeying for road space and parking spaces and annoying the living shit out of you because you can’t bear to get somewhere a minute later or have to walk an extra fifty feet. cars made americans fat and lazy and diabetic (thanks to the corn lobby for the help on the last one, though).

So yeah, I’ve got a chip on my shoulders.

You’ve obviously never seen Falling Down.

The cost is about a million bucks a year… but the ticket revenues had more than offset it. I’m not sure how long the contract was for.

Looks like a 5 year contract with 2 1-year options.

Thanks for that info Jason.

Jason is right about the burden of proof. When you’re charged with a crime, you’re innocent till proven guilty. Here, the vehicle owner was guilty until he proved himself innocent. That is unconstitutional. But the court did not say so because it didn’t need to say so. The court resolved the case, as courts try to do, without reaching the constitutional issue.

The Rat got a ticket in the mail the very day they declared it unconstitutional. So he threw it away.

Pick up the scum and The System puts them right back out on the street….

That’s too bad.

But how does this differ from getting a parking ticket?

Kevin: a parking ticket isn’t a gross misdemeanor. It’s not a crime.

re: How is this a violation of anyone’s rights? operating a motor vehicle is a privledge subject to regulation, not a right. enforcing traffic laws, such as via photocop, is just proper regulation of automobile usage.

But photocop is not ticketing the driver of the car. Its ticketing the -owner- of the car. You are declaring the owner guilty by just owning the car.

In addition in other states it been shown that these types of intersections causes more accidents due to people hitting on the brakes when the light turns yellow. Also – it has been shown (such in Texas recently) that they change the timing of the lights to increase violations (such as shortening the timing of the yellow light). In Minnesota – early statistics showed accidents down but the thing hasn’t been in place long enough to get any long term stats.

Photocop is just more big brother in action…

car culture is disgusting and degrading.

Do the car owners feel degraded? That’s not your call, it’s their call.

If they did, it would seem to me that more people would opt out like you.

Do the car owners feel degraded? That’s not your call, it’s their call. I think he meant that it’s degrading to everyone else who chooses not to drive. It’s also degrading, like wayne said, to the people who’s neighborhoods are torn up to make way for highways. I’d like to see someone actually refute his arguments that it is detrimental to society by lessening community interaction.

I’m a Minnesotan living in Korea. Here they don’t have photo cops on lights (but I wish they did because I see a light run every day), but rather they have photo cops for speeding on interstates. They catch you at one point with the the driver’s head shot, then after being tagged as speeding, they have a second camera that catches you down the road. They send you the ticket and both pictures in the mail. I’d say the equipment pretty much pays for itself with the tickets.

They don’t really tell foreigners this and I had a friend who found out the hard way with a bunch of tickets in the mail (they’re delayed about a month). Similar devices are used in Germany as well. Not sure about other countries.

I’m inclined to agree that people are less inclined to interact (using your term). But is it something they would change by choice?

No one can make feel any way that you don’t want to feel. If someone feels degraded, that’s their choice.

I’m right there with Wayne.

Anyone coming from proper cities a la European metropolises, will right away be surprised at the American cityscape.

Gigantic highways, massive onramps, endless parking lots. The infrastructure for driving is developed beyond belief. Unfortunately, pretty much all other forms of transport have been decimated. Inter-city buses and trains are a joke, public transport in cities is for the poor (maybe its not so bad in MSP but definitely seems that way in other places).

Cars have definitely created ugly American cities. Just look at the 94, 35, 394 etc etc hub downtown. That is a massive amount of land used for roads. How many light rails, commuter trains, bus terminals, sidewalks, bike paths could you build in that space???

Also some neighborhoods have been left as islands, fenced off by highways. A good example is cedar-riverside sandwitched between Washington Ave highway, 35, 55, and others.

Perhaps the only glimmer of hope is Portland which removed a highway and created an excellent park instead.

The sadest thing is that these highways have proven abysmal forms of transportation. Is there any urban area in the US that doesn’t suffer from traffic?

Public transport on the other hand is quite efficient at staying on time and moving large amounts of people even during wicked rush hours as I am sure many of you have seen in cities with real subways, trains, bus systems.

Oh well, one can only hope…..

This what happens when you have a bunch of lazy bums at city hall, who are trying to enact a culture of robber barons by allowing your tax money to be wasted on a program that is both unconstituitional and unethical in the relm of local politics. Its a good thing we have a state supreme court that interp laws, not laws that can be a conflict of interest.

FYI: Go ahead Rybek apologists. Trash Alan Fine. Do it like former disgrace DFL state senate majority leader Dean Johnson did with the gay marriage thing at the courts.

I’d like to see someone actually refute his arguments that it is detrimental to society by lessening community interaction.

One could make a compelling argument that the internet lessens community interaction too. At least the type of interpersonal interaction that Wayne seems to be referencing.

(I’m not making that argument. I’m not refuting Wayne either — I hate the sprawl and giant parking lots too. I’m just sayin’.)

I remember when people were pissed about them being installed, crying about the yellow light runners. I used to live in Stevens where people would blow through the red on 17th(?) and 1st going about 40 mph and I did a little dance of joy for those photocops. My opinion is, if you don’t want a ticket, don’t run the light, or don’t speed, or don’t park your goddamn car in the restricted zones. Simple, yes?

Do you find the place unlivable, vlado?

Anyong, Nate. Where are you in Korea? My wife and I were in Daegu for awhile.

I always considered the photo cop to be in the same boat as getting a parking ticket – it’s unknown in either case whether the offender is a driver or owner.

So yeah, I’ve got a chip on my shoulders

I thought that was your head. Wayne despises cars because after failing to pass his driver’s test for the 7th time, he gave up. Something about the lack of hand-eye coordination.

People like wayne and vlad who came here from boston and eastern europe to escape the inadequacies of those locations, are being disingenuous when they then attempt to turn their new home into a mirror image of where they left. We like it here because it isn’t boston or eastern europe and we’re not interested in becoming those places anytime soon.

It might be easier on your psyche if you just give it up and go back home to the other side of the iron curtain where your collectivist dreams are closer to realty.

One could make a compelling argument that the internet lessens community interaction too. At least the type of interpersonal interaction that Wayne seems to be referencing.

That makes checking your email while driving is a double negative, making it okay to do because it actually adds to community interaction!

I thought that was your head. Wayne despises cars because after failing to pass his driver’s test for the 7th time, he gave up. Something about the lack of hand-eye coordination.

Wow, Mazz, ease up on the Haterade.

People like wayne and vlad who came here from boston and eastern europe to escape the inadequacies of those locations, are being disingenuous when they then attempt to turn their new home into a mirror image of where they left. We like it here because it isn’t boston or eastern europe and we’re not interested in becoming those places anytime soon.

This is one of the very few times I think that the old troll has made an excellent point.

You must be new here.

Ahh, nothing more original than ad hominem remarks regarding communism, being a commie, etc. Yes, because I was born behind the iron curtain I must just be a “commie” at heart and stand against everything which is “truly american”. Haven’t heard those before.

Your aged references to the iron curtain are on-par with your understanding of the core ideas behind the USA. The US is not a static place and has been under the influence of immigrants (mostly European until now) since its inception.

Maz, is your view of the US really that of a static entity? Are you opposed to change and new ideas brought in by the smartest people from all around the world which the US is so good at attracting?

Must I shut my mouth and never voice and idea which the local Minnesotans may not like?

Am I not Minnesotan enough considering I have lived here for the past 10 years?

Soviet Commie out

Any word on if certain offenders (cough, cough) will be refunded?

FYI: Go ahead Rybek apologists. Trash Alan Fine. Do it like former disgrace DFL state senate majority leader Dean Johnson did with the gay marriage thing at the courts.

Correction: FYI: Go ahead Rybek apologists. Trash Sam Hanson. Do it like what former state senator and disgraced DFL majority leader Dean Johnson did with the gay marriage thing at the courts. You lib idiots are no better than the Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and Ted Haggard wing of the GOP, regarding to trashing the constitution and our democratic system. You PEOPLE have no respect to the basic form of civil liberties!

vlado4: Instead of an ad hominen, I asked if you simply found the place too unlivable as compared to those “proper European metropolises.”

How about it? Too crude out on The Frontier for you?

Vlad misses his family’s dacha and the good life of the ruling elite.

Hey Maz,

My people and I have some blankets for you and your family. They will keep you warm through this unseasonably cold start to Spring.

I believe the issue at hand is the photo cop and its constitutional relevance. I think we can all pretty much accept that while Minneapolis is no European delight, it’s better than fucking anything below the Mason-Dixon line.

I think there should be a fucking camera on every street corner of every problem area and these photocop cams should be at every stop light.

Atlanta’s nice

Actually, I think Atlanta makes these two cities look like a provincial backwater.

I was in Atlanta once. I barely escaped with my life. No one warned me not to go downtown at night unarmed.

My people and I have some blankets for you and your family

As much as I despise government, even I have to admit that that’s a myth.

Nonetheless….

As much as I despise government,

People often despise government until they need it.

Vlado, don`t let these Native americans chase you away, new blood is always a good thing, my parents came from Zagreb.

Photocop – Shmotocop, how about some live cops checking out accident prone areas..in unmarked squads.

As far as cameras, they work in the UK, they catch lots of wrongdoers in the act, would love to see this technology applied in high crime areas here.

It seems that the ACLU is now in charge of our lives, a prospect I really didn`t vote for, if you let someone drive your vehicle, they should know upfront that anything they do illegal with that car is going to cost the owner bigtime..it`s basically a contract to not mess-up driving, how many Cops episodes end with the perp saying he just borrowed the car.

Must I shut my mouth and never voice and idea which the local Minnesotans may not like?

No, vlado4, no! Because other locals are not knee-jerk reactionaries. Which I hope you’ve found out for yourself after 10 years here.

Zdravo!

Hvala!

I’m pretty sure by this point that maz doesn’t want anything good to exist, whether it comes at the cost of regulating his beloved free market or not. I picture him like a dried prune, all shriveled up, all optimism in the ability of people to come together and create something livable as a community sucked out of him… any sense of what is possible is dismissed as “collectivism”. If collectivism was the last thing standing between him and the end of the freaking world, he would still denounce it. I have a goal in life of what not to become thanks to dear old maz.

Outrageous differential in wealth, with a few crooked and lucky assholes rolling in it and the rest of us starving? A transportation system that has completely ground to a halt, and filled half of our space with freeways and onramps (which, btw, are paid for by taxpayers, just like buses)? Sickening pollution? A complete and utter lack of planning in every way imaginable? Hell, he’d sell off national parks to the highest bidder. Maz would love nothing more than all of this stuff to come true, if it hasn’t already, while he fellates his free market god. The only question left for me is, why?

As I read back over that last post it’s clear that I’m a bit drunk. But I think the gist of it still stands…

OK, here’s the difference between a parking ticket and a photo cop ticket. A parking ticket is a petty misdemeanor- it’s technically an offense, but not a crime. Your constitutional criminal rights don’t attach the way they do for a criminal citation. Running a stop sign is a misdemeanor- you criminal rights do attach, and the state must prove you guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The city bought a system that does not provide a picture of the driver, so they can’t show it was you. You can’t be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, because the city attorney has no way to show that you ran the red light. they can only show that your car ran a red light.

Now, this could be fixed by making running a red light a petty misdemeanor, but that means changing existing state law. It also means that things like enhanceability (charging up after X number of offenses) would have to be changed. But that’s a state issue.

This is what I got from school and talking to a prosecutor. Bobby, feel free to correct me- I’m still new at this.

You’re right. You are drunk.

“First, we kill all the lawyers.”

- the Bard

IRONY:
I enter the bicycle vs. car argument in this thread, leave my home on my bike, and proceed to get drilled by a car that turned left right into me, not yielding. I was wearing a reflective vest, although there was still plenty of daylight (around 6:15 pm). The guy was at fault and probably got charged with something like inattentive driving. I went to the hospital, but luckily nothing serious. I would like to say that the arguments such as “keep the bikes on the greenways and off our roads” are bullshit. I don’t live near the greenway. Everyone cannot live and commute only along the greenways. How the fuck am I supposed to get around? I got rid of my car when i moved up here, with the intent of saving money, time, and the environment. And to the argument that bikes should stay off the road? I wasn’t on the road, I was crossing a street on my bike. The guy hit me anyway. I’m tired of this rant, but drivers: ITS THE LAW THAT WE ARE ALLOWED TO BE ON THE ROAD TOO, WATCH WHAT THE FUCK YOU ARE DOING. That guy apologizing to me while i’m laying on the street? A lot of good it’s going to do me. FUCK CARS.

This trackback says it well.

I wish there were photocops or something to keep cars from driving 45 miles an hour down neighborhood streets like my block, where there are lots of parked cars and children play, etc. It happens all the time, it’s damn dangerous and we clearly don’t pay enough taxes to have police officers enforcing the speed limits away from the main streets.

Once again in Minneapolis, Stop lights…

are just a suggestion.

“It might be easier on your psyche if you just give it up and go back home to the other side of the iron curtain where your collectivist dreams are closer to realty.
»» Submitted by mazz at 7:10 PM on April 5″

Wow, save it for your call in to Rush.

“Ahh, nothing more original than ad hominem remarks regarding communism, being a commie, etc. Yes, because I was born behind the iron curtain I must just be a “commie” at heart and stand against everything which is “truly american”. Haven’t heard those before.

Your aged references to the iron curtain are on-par with your understanding of the core ideas behind the USA. The US is not a static place and has been under the influence of immigrants (mostly European until now) since its inception.

Maz, is your view of the US really that of a static entity? Are you opposed to change and new ideas brought in by the smartest people from all around the world which the US is so good at attracting?

Must I shut my mouth and never voice and idea which the local Minnesotans may not like?

Am I not Minnesotan enough considering I have lived here for the past 10 years?

Soviet Commie out
»» Submitted by »»» vlado4 at 8:25 PM on April 5″

Beautiful, and well said.

See what you’ve done maz, made me hit the bottle like that.

Rat -

Minneapolis, a frontier? You have to be kidding me. This place is about as comfortable as possible. Low crime, generally nice people, good system which is well organized. When I think frontier I think a small town in Siberia, places in Alaska etc. MSP is closer to NYC than a frontier…

I think there are some beautiful things about European cities, but I love American cities as well. The US has a lot of wonderful attributes such as the ability to do as one pleases.

For example, in Europe you have to spend money on looking good and dressing well and style bullshit. I prefer to dress with whatever old clothing I can find. It is awesome that the US culture allows this. In Europe I would be deemed a complete social outcast and be shunned. People there are absolute consumer whores.

Nevertheless, I love the pedestrian-only streets in Europe. I believe every proper city should have at least one large one. People walking around, hanging out, looking at each other, talking. Quite a good time.

My dream vision of Mpls is more pedestrian streets and the removal of major highways from the dowtown area. Expand the 494, 694 highways so that people can use them to bypass the cities. Inside this loop create a better transportation system perhaps in place of the old highways.

Regardless of anything I love Minnesota and Minneapolis, great places to live and I am glad people are kept out of here because of the cold!

i’m with wayne on this one. constitutional mumbo jumbo aside, i know the photocops change behavior…because they changed MY behavior – i found myself trying to “make the light” way less frequently. and if you don’t want your friends running lights in your car, don’t loan it to em.

Vlado: When I was talking about Frontier, I was referring to the general location, which is flyover country in the prairie — the area that people fly over in order to get to the east and west coasts.

But that seems fine with you. I agree with you. The Twin Cities are far from Fashion Central.

I make a few trips to Europe every year for work. I love the street scenes and watching the stylish people. Wish it could work in the U.S. I think it would make the cities better places. But people are addicted to their cars, here. Mostly, it’s an addiction they love. The only way they can be weaned is for people in power to make it so absolutely miserable and/or expensive to drive that people will be forced away. That’s not going to happen.

Glad you like it here. I’ve lived in a couple large cities on the East Coast. But this is home for me.

Maz says this crazy shite because people pay attention to him. The contributors of this site tend to ignore important points and give into Maz, Samesin, Bud with great ease. We need to stop that.

But photocop is not ticketing the driver of the car. Its ticketing the -owner- of the car. You are declaring the owner guilty by just owning the car.

Shouldn’t the owner of the car be responsible for its use? If someone uses your car and runs a red, don’t let them use your car anymore!

thought that was your head. Wayne despises cars because after failing to pass his driver’s test for the 7th time, he gave up. Something about the lack of hand-eye coordination.

Idiot. I had a license for seven years before I gave it up after I moved here. I was also never pulled over or written a ticket.

People like wayne and vlad who came here from boston and eastern europe to escape the inadequacies of those locations, are being disingenuous when they then attempt to turn their new home into a mirror image of where they left. We like it here because it isn’t boston or eastern europe and we’re not interested in becoming those places anytime soon.

I didn’t come here to escape anything, and my plan has always been to move back when I pay off enough of my student loans. All I see out here is a cheap place to bide time and pay down debt until I can go back to civilized country.

Some people on this board have the gaul to make the argument that “the law needs to be change,” or “why this is a violation of civil rights,” or even “I wanted to see more photocop cameras in my neighborhoods in order to curb reckless drivers.” Presumably, we live in a country where your supposed to be “innocent until your proven guilty”, not the other way around; the state supreme court however did the right thing to shut this program down, mainly because the City of Minneapolis had violated this specfic driver’s privacy rights by overstepping its authority. Peorid. And this is no better than what the White House is doing on an normal basis. Yeah. You know, the firings of those nine federal lawyers by the Justice Department for political reasons?

Wayne, by your logic, if I loan my kitchen butcher knife to my neighbor, and my neighbor kills someone, I should automatically be charged with homicide because it’s my knife.

I drive the car registered to my wife — shouldn’t the government have the burden of proof in a criminal case?

So you’ve got an attitude like that, yet whine that you can’t get a date.

Rat -

Cars are expensive. Seriously, even without the government subsidies, cars are massively expensive. Insurance, maintenance, gas, tickets. Fucking adds up. Cars are perfect for weekend trips, etc. Put your family in them and go to the cabin or camping. However, for daily commuting…. retarded. People have become complete zombies in their cars and suburbs.

The progressive, intellectual, educated people are centering around hotspots in the city. Many are walking and biking. The UMN is a prime example since parking around here is quite dumb and reserved for exurb supercommuters.

I think that MSP central core is making a comeback. Uptown has faired well and Downtown and Northeast are comming around with actual grocery stores and many new buildings.

Wayne -

Sorry MSP is not good enough for Eastern elites like you. Pretty lame to diss a place you live in. As a young seemingly capable person you should move out of here ASAP. I don’t want your negative attitude around here.

Appreciate what you have around you. If you are bored or can’t appreciate what we have here, I think the problem is in you, not our city.

I’m pretty sure knife-use doesn’t require government permitting, jason, so no, that’s not by the same logic. If kitchen knives were regulated because of safety concerns, sure, a knife which is registered to you and used by someone else might become an issue (like guns! gosh!), but that’s not the case.

Oh, and Liz, I never said the locals were savages. I *can* get a date, though.

I’d don’t see what having to get a license to operate a car has to do with anything… but I’m dumb like that. I’d be fine if they carved out an exception in state law to allow photo cop. But it stinks a little to know Minneapolis tried to get the exception a couple times, failed, and did it anyway. If I were a city taxpayer, I’d be a little miffed.

What’s asinine is that they didn’t get the exception in the first place.

And what it has to do with anything is that automobile usage on public infrastructure is regulated because of safety concerns. You have to register your vehicle, and so you’re reponsible for where it goes and what it does (or you should be, at least). People’s argument against photocop is basically “just because I own it and it’s registered to me doesn’t mean I’m responsible for its use!” Which seems like a total asshat copout of responsibility.

vlado, I don’t actually dislike Minneapolis. I was just taking a page out of maz’s book and making ridiculous inflammatory comments.

And I’m actually pretty excited to see if any of the Big Plans the city/metro has are fleshed out. If they drop the ball on all the transit projects, though, I don’t know how much hope I can have for the future of the area.

I agree with your responsibility argument, Wayne.. it just seems live a civil penalty would be more appropriate than a criminal one.

I’m sorry, big g, but driving is a fucking PRIVLEDGE and not a RIGHT. It’s not infringing on anyone’s rights to regulate it for the safety of everyone else. If the registered owner of a vehicle can’t be held responsible for its safe use, what the fuck point is there in registering them in the first place?

I agree with your responsibility argument, Wayne.. it just seems live a civil penalty would be more appropriate than a criminal one.

Aren’t there some federal highway matching funds that could be lost if they reduce the penalty for running a red light? I seem to remember reading something around that line when legislation was introduced in the legislatire a couple of months back.

jason, I can see your point, although running reds is much more likely to put others in harm than parking illegally, so the distinction makes some sense to me.

Wayne, so if a photo cop camera caught a crash which caused an innocent person to drive– you’d be OK with the registered owner of that car being charged with vehicular homicide immediately? And then in court, the owner would have to prove that he/she wasn’t driving, otherwise the driver is guilty?

I guess I’d probably agree that the cameras are more “Big Brother” than “Law Enforcement tool” if it wasn’t for the drivers themselves. If the people who run red lights only killed or hurt themselves, I’d say “Let Darwinism do its job.” But they don’t just kill or hurt themselves, and when someone has been killed or critically injured because of one of these drivers, a slap on the wrist or a bit of jail time does not bring them back or fix their broken bodies.

If people drove responsibly there would be no need for cameras. But since some people do not drive responsibly we do need them, and just like with every other restrictive law out there, it is not aimed at the people who are responsible, but at those who are not. It is just the people who are responsible who feel as though they are being targeted.

Now you can draw comparisons to the UnPatriotic Act and in some cases you would be correct, but comparing a traffic ticket to having the FBI surreptitiously spy on you is a bit of a stretch.

derusha, wouldn’t i (the driver) have to prove that anyway? if my car is found at the scene of a crash, but there’s no driver, you’re darn right they’re gonna make me prove it wasn’t me that was driving.

is photocop actually video or is it just a snapshot?

driving is a fucking PRIVLEDGE and not a RIGHT

and innocent until proven guilty is a right not a privilege. The burden of proof is with the state not the accused. I don’t want to give up my constitutional rights in exchange for somewhat safer streets.

a crash that caused an innocent person to drive?

how would that work?

But I’m pretty sure catching crashes is outside the scope of the photocop program. If there’s an accident a flesh-and-blood policeman comes by and sees exactly who was driving.

Anyway, cars are weapons just like guns and the registered owner should be responsible for their safe use. If someone shoots someone else with your gun and they catch the person, you’re still off the hook for murder at least, but you need to watch out who you let use your gun.

I meant crash that causes a person to die. A hit and run. Caught on camera. And people often switch seats after a crash– so it’s hard to know who was driving.

And no, cubbie, with a good lawyer, you would not have to prove you were not the driver. The state would have to prove YOU were driving. It’s the whole innocent until proven guilty thing.

At the very least there needs to be a penalty for having your registered vehicle used to violate traffic laws.

Something like “allowance of unsafe operation of vehicle.”

It’s obvious someone is doing something wrong, here. The idea that we should just throw up our hands and say “well, we don’t know who it was! Tough luck! We know whose car it was, but they might have lent it to a complete stranger and had no idea who was driving it through red lights!” is really bizarre to me. All it would take is a ticket for allowing someone else to use your car to run a red light to convince someone to not let that person use their car anymore.

True. So someone could create that law, and then we’d be good to go.

Yes, they should.

Then I’d be happy.

Can someone give me a contact for whatever government official started photocop? I want to give them this idea.

And no, cubbie, with a good lawyer…that’s what i meant…you’d still have to defend yourself. it’s not like you can just go “prove it!” and be off the hook.

“Sir, is this your car with a body on the windshield?”

“Yeah. So?”

“Were you driving it tonight?”

“Nope!”

“Ok, sorry to bother you. Let’s pack it up boys! Nothin to see here!”

Actually, you could go prove it, and if they couldn’t.. technically you should be found not guilty.

Maybe I leave the legal talk to the lawyers. I’m just a reporter, with an interest in due process, the Constitution, that kind of silliness..

Actually, ha ha, funny story, I once framed a guy by stealing his car and running over a rival of mine with it. I parked it back in his driveway with blood all over it and called the police anonymously with a tip that I saw his plate number hit & run a pedestrian.

It’s really quite easy.

i’m mowin down like 10 people this weekend. all i have to do is say “it wasn’t me” (just like that shaggy song.) this is gonna be awesome.

sorry, that was prickish.

Hit and run cases are extremely difficult to prosecute and investigate. Just ask the motorcyclist who was hit in August. They finally got the guy, and the case is finally going to trial. I think you’ve taken your argument down a bit of a silly trail… which isn’t really necessary.. .because you had done a nice job of making a reasonable case for your opinion.

Does ANYONE want to discuss how people are supposed to try and get their money back and/or get this off their record? Now I’m sure that means fifty responses from people that think everyone deserved what they got, but on the other hand they also just like to judge people. I for one, got a photo cop ticket for turning right a split second after the light turned. Hundreds of dollars down the drain, especially in the ridiculous increase on my insurance premiums.

I wouldn’t even care so much about getting a ticket refund, getting it off my record would make a world of difference on my bills though. ANYONE?

I guess I thought more people would be opposed to being criminally charged for something with virtually no evidence that you did it. Just your car did it. But if everyone really feels this way, call your legislator, and get the law changed.

Tbelich, there’s a class-action lawsuit on that topic pending in federal court right now. It’ll probably take a couple weeks for all of it to get sorted out. The $142 dollars didn’t all go to the city. Minneapolis got about $50… the courts got some.. the state got the rest. So it’s a little complicated.

Thanks jderusha. Yeah, like I said, I’m not expecting to get much, if any, of the actual ticket fee back, especially considering how much of it goes to pay for all the processing and blah blah blah…I want the hundreds of dollars that I’m getting charged every six months for the increased driving ‘points’, back. How willing USAA will be about refunding that much money over so a year+, I have no idea…

but comparing a traffic ticket to having the FBI surreptitiously spy on you is a bit of a stretch.

Not if the method for giving the traffic ticket violates the presumption of innocence and shifts the burden of proof from the state to the accused.

“Not if the method for giving the traffic ticket violates the presumption of innocence and shifts the burden of proof from the state to the accused.
»» Submitted by — at 11:51 AM on April 6″

Which is a surmountable obstacle. Any tool that can keep irresponsible drivers from putting innocents at risk is worth the effort.

The responsibilities of owning an auto should include the responsibility to ensure the safe use of it. If someone borrows your car and hits a pedestrian you shouldn’t be charged for that, but you should be at least ticketed for letting them use your car. I dont’ think there should be liability for lawsuits, but a fine at the very least is a good idea.

The responsibilities of owning an auto should include …

fine, whatever, but that idea (whatever it is worth) is not more important the most basic principles of the judicial system. Why can’t they just set up the cameras to take the pictures from the front and get a picture of the driver?

Why can’t they just set up the cameras to take the pictures from the front and get a picture of the driver?

Honestly it would probably be cost prohibitive to compare it to their license photo (really whose ID picture isn’t out of date?) and make a call on whether or not it’s them driving. I doubt you could including identifying the driver as a part of the process because it either comes down to someone’s judgement call or notoriously-flawed facial-recognition software. Niether of which is really going to fly in court.

The whole idea of this photocop thing was to find an inexpensive way to cut down on dangerous conduct. The writers complaining about the presumption of innocence are right to the extent that the enforcement of violations is a criminal matter. The presumption of innocence doesn’t apply to anything else. So if they divorce photocop from a criminal violation, photocop doesn’t violate the constitution. It may still offend some people’s ideas of fairness.

The writers on this thread haven’t objected that getting parking tickets for someone else’s use of a car is unfair. About the only difference between the two, as a matter of proof, is that meter monitors see the license plate on the parked cars and cameras see the licnese on the moving violations. Is this really a difference?

Maybe the city should call the photocop matters a running-the-red-light user fee. Our guv likes user fees, and that would remove the whole criminal law issue. A hundred and fifty dollar fee would certainly discourage people from lending their cars to the (ahem) other folks using the cars to run red lights. And of course they could put it right in the law that the owner has an absolute right to reimbursement from the actual violator.

Has anybody else got any good ideas for cutting down on scofflaws running red lights? There seems to be a problem.

Notify the car owner’s insurance company when the “car” runs the red light. That’ll fix it right away.

Has anybody else got any good ideas for cutting down on scofflaws running red lights?

snipers.

How about we bypass the tickets all together. Get and set up a system that only takes a picture of the driver’s face and then a separate one for the license plate. Then publish it on the internet along with the time stamp and the intersection they blew through.

Nothing is legally binding. No tickets. No money changes hands.

How come the only people with rights in Minnesota are criminals? How about the rights of pedestrians murdered by viscious-red-light-running criminals? This is yet another fine job of DEFENDING CRIMINALS BY ACLU.

ACalhoun is an idiot. Parking tickets are nothing like this PhotoCop.

his point was that they are alike in the sense that there’s no evidence @ the moment of the violation that the car owner is the (ir)responsible party. calling him an idiot is idiotic…but I suppose that’s just how you roll.

The insurance idea might be a good one. The insurers can put the car in a different risk category. Seems to belong in one.

so if someone got pulled over for running a red light and got ticketed and they weren’t the owner of the vehicle, what’s the difference? when i was in high school i drove my mother’s car around. if i was in trouble with the law i’m sure i would get ticketed rather than my mother. so the photocop system seems rather flawed where the owner takes responsibility. i think it’s a great idea, it’s just not set up right.

The ACLU lawyer told me yesterday that PhotoCop can’t take pictures of faces, because Minnesota has a really strict privacy law that this violates.

Re: The ACLU lawyer told me yesterday that PhotoCop can’t take pictures of faces, because Minnesota has a really strict privacy law that this violates.

Jason, I’m just curious, what law is the ACLU lawyer referring to? Generally, Minnesota is WAY behind the curve on privacy law. Besides, generally any picture taken in a public place such as a public street is fair game, the theory being that what legally can be seen can legally be photographed. If that weren’t so, WCCO would be sued all the time.

I’m glad this is dead.

All arguments about the cameras’ legality aside, the cameras served as an onroad to a surveillance society.

Take one hard look at the UK. Public safety people have gone so crazy with CCTV, speed cameras, etc etc etc… I don’t want to live in that sort of a society. We don’t NEED the state to ensure our safety, we need personal responsibility. I really don’t want to live in a state like the UK. I’d probably move if we had what they have here.

Those red light cameras were a farce. If the city ACTUALLY thought there was a major problem at those intersections, they could post a traffic cop there during the day, which would be far better at reducing accidents than a red light camera (people will slow down and pay more attention right away because they think a real cop is watching them, as opposed to getting a ticket in the mail later and MAYBE next time “thinking twice”). The fact that they were unwilling to go that far suggests that these intersections actually are not a public safety priority.

I also love the statistically insignificant figures they’re spouting about the percentage reduction in accidents.

Let these cameras die, and let us get on with our lives. Honestly, it is these sorts of things that will destroy America. Not terrorists, not homosexuals….

If cameras are dead, then we should reapply our efforts to get more police on the road. More police patrolling in these crappy intersections should only be, what 4, 5, 6 times more expensive than cameras?

Hurray for efficiency.

Problem is people do not act responsible unless they are made to act responsible.

Whoops, people do not act responsibly unless they are made to act responsibly. My grammar cop was on a donut break.

I disagree completely.

I know I’ve never been ticketed for red-light violations, yet I still stop…? I’ve never been MADE to obey traffic laws, yet I do.

I think we should have more REAL POLICE on the road. I don’t care how much more expensive they are. Technology is not always the answer, in fact, it can be a huge problem. Again, look at the UK. It’s sick and sad. I feel sorry for the Britons, but their country is pretty much nanny state trash.

Part of an intangible freedom of our country, as much as some don’t want to admit it publicly and officially in this whole argument, is being able to “bend the rules” a bit without worry that we’re going to be punished needlessly…. I think it’s something we all take for granted. Going 5-10mph over the limit…. Running a yellow a little bit late… We’ve all done these things from time to time, and I’m certain most of us don’t make it a point to willfully break any laws maliciously. But if we start a precedent of surveillance, such technology will eventually progress where everything is recorded and any crime or accidental law violation, no matter how minor, will be punished. Do you want to live in fear of that? Is that really the direction we want our country to go?

people do not act responsibly unless they are made to act responsibly.

This is a fundamental difference between the left and the right. Conservatives believe in the inherent goodness in people, that they are fundamentally good. That’s why conservatives believe in voluntarism and freedom … because given the chance, people will do the right thing. That’s what character is.

In contrast, liberals believe that people are inherently bad, which explains their penchant for mandates, regulation and control. Liberals believe that people will not do the right thing unless threatened with punishment. It’s reflected in how they govern (see above) and how they treat people in general.

maz…. there have also been “law and order” conservatives who would jump all over this.

This isn’t a right vs left issue at all, it’s simply how you view government’s role in protecting the people. While it’s true that advocates of bigger government tend to go for this sort of things, a true social liberal would be against these 100%.

I think the bigger issue is society as a whole is allowing fear to rule our lives in every aspect… From the patriot act to immigration to terrorism to these sorts of surveillance programs, we let fear guide us.

I see. Conservatives are the idealists in this society? Or is it that these conservatives who abhor regulation just don’t like anything getting between them and their profits? No matter what the shitty consequences for the rest of us?

I also think you demonstrate daily that you are far from believing in the inherent goodness of people, especially if they’re liberal. So does that make you a liberal, too? Or just a really illogical conservative?

I don’t give a crap if it’s Big Brother Government keeping people from driving like @$$holes or groups of neighborhood watch vigilantes doing whatever the hell they feel they need to do to keep themselves and their families safe. The end result just needs to be drastically lowering the number of innocent people being hurt or killed by reprobates who believe driving however the hell they want is somehow their right as an American.

I think it would be much easier and more efficient (and probably more humane and moral) to just hire more police, but that would give the republicans a conniption fit. Groups of heavily armed vigilantes seems to be more their speed.

This isn’t a right vs left issue at all, it’s simply how you view government’s role in protecting the people.

But that is the fundamental debate of left v. right. All that other stuff is just a distraction. The left believes the role of government is to “protect the people,” while the right’s view of the role of government is to “protect the peoples’ constitutional rights from being infringed.”

We’re constitutionalists, not social engineers.

Some may think they’re the same thing, but they’re not. One implies nanny statism, the other means simply enforcing the law. I appreciate that there’s too much nuance in many of my arguments for some people here, but I keep thinking that perhaps some people get it.

People like yoder make me sick… Safety at all costs to freedom.

That’s pretty much it.

I’m just not living with the fear that so many are. It makes me sad to see how scared some people live.

I also think you demonstrate daily that you are far from believing in the inherent goodness of people, especially if they’re liberal. So does that make you a liberal, too?

I was a liberal for the first half of my life and I’ve been a conservative for the second half. Whereas liberals seem to despise conservatives, I don’t think liberals are bad people. But as Ronaldo Maximus once said: “T]he trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn’t so.” heh

Certain intersections are worse than others. I used to live at 2800 Park, and I saw MANY terrible collisions there. Morning rush hour was the worst, as late-for-workers gunned it down both 28th and Park at speeds sometimes in excess of 40mph. Running a red light and t-boning someone at that speed means serious damage and injuries, to say nothing of the danger to the daycare kids who often played in the massive front yard of the center on the NE corner of that block. (Into which struck vehicles were often propelled.)

I get the presumption of innocence argument, and I think it’s valid. At the same time, after seeing so many crashes, I also sympathize with the desire to crack down on red-light-runners.

caryc

Thank you. My job is done.

And no I don’t believe in safety at any cost to freedom, but if that’s what you need to believe in order to despise me then by all means.

My solution is easy: Switch the lights to flashing red both ways. That will make it nearly impossible for the scofflaws to run the red lights. And it will make it much safer for pedestrians. Traffic flow will suck, but that won’t heap a whole new tax burden on Minneapolis taxpayers just so that suburbanites can travel as fast as they like.

It’s about time someone had some sense about this matter and strike it down for good I hope. A car doesn’t break any laws its driver does. The driver may or may not be the owner. It is totally stupid to think that only the owner of a vehicle drives it. Consider an average family, a married couple and one or more teenagers are drivers. The little princess or sonny runs a red light and dad gets a ticket in the mail a few days later. Dad needs to take a day of of work to go to court and prove that, yes he was at work as he always is at two thirty in the afternoon, and no he wasn’t cruising West Broadway or the streets downtown like the city coprs want you to think. Maybe the cop ought to sit on the corner a while and witness these infractions if the city wants them to right more tickets to line its pockets. I doubt very much if the accidents at these corners were reduced much if any for the time thay were taking picture. This was just one more way the City of Minneapolis blew alot of our tax money.The cities stupity of not really checking into this before hand is what got me mad.
I take the bus myself as I’m handicapped and have been for many years. I have no legs since I lost them in an auto accident more than thirty years ago. I use the bus system and a wheelchair to get around the city with just fine. I don’t drive by my choice. I could if I had a specially equipped car. A law like this could help hanicapped people like me perhaps by making them slow down when they near stoplights as they should, ha! like that will happen, but you have to catch the driver not the car.