Secrets of the City

No. Yes. Both.

A problem with these manufactured “small towns” is that the better they’re done, the creepier they are. There’s a “town” near Stillwater called Liberty Village that my bro and I drove through one time after golfing near there. All of the homes were perfect with front porches and sidewalks, ponds and streets lights, a small shopping center and a neighborhood school. The homes weren’t overly ostentatious, and it almost looked attractive. But it was the most Stepford-esque, we’re going to shoot you if your lawn is too long, unsettling place I had ever seen.

And it’s called Liberty Village. Yikes.

here it is.

Um. I suck. I can’t get the link to work. I think my Apple IIc needs an upgrade.

to the suburbs:
wah, wah, wah. take your fakey neighborhoods and fakey downtowns and don’t cry to the rest of us about why they don’t work
and Liberty Village IS creepy

Fake neighborhoods for fake people. They don’t want real neighborhoods otherwise they’d move to the city. They want a Valley Fair kind of “real” neighborhood. Full of chains.

Try the Yellowsone Club if you want creepy.

Over the top creepy, that is.

The ‘Director of Security’ is ex Secret Service.

I think all of the smarmy suburb-haters on this site better move in with wayne.

I hear he has a new tv…

They will never replace the authentic downtowns, nor should they. But they are better than no city center at all.

The idea to create dense housing in the suburbs is creating a supply without a demand. If I wanted shared walls and a condo feel, I’d rather live in the real city.

problem is, as these ‘burbs are finding out, it’s damned expensive to build a city center. the planners really shouldn’t expect the taxpaers to foot the bill, even through TIF
and some of the ‘burbs that have had downtowns or even old main streets turned their back on those areas years ago. . . or ran highways through them, as happened to Newport.
Some communities deserve kudos for trying to build around or strengthen historic downtowns, like Hastings. but when your community sprawls every which way it’s difficult.

Ha. Ha. You can’t fake real a community.

What is this “real city” of which we speak? Is it the Hooters on Block E? Or the Caribous next to the the Chipotles?

And before I bait people into an anti-suburbia cacophony, I’d like to say I’m not writing this as either pro-city or anti-suburb. But MNSpeak is equally guilty of being overly ruthless to the suburbs and romantic about the city.

When I’m in other cities (e.g. Chicago, Seattle come to mind), there are enough dense areas that are able to sustain really cool pockets of what I think we mean by living in the “real city.” But if I were a tourist to Mpls, what pockets of our city would I be really jazzed by?

building condos in the suburbs is just dumb. when I read that strib article this morning I just shook my head when they tried to compare the McTownCentres to places like Stillwatter that evolved naturally over many years. You can’t force or design that sort of thing. You can allow it to happen, but most modern zoning codes do not. Almost all the places we cherish and enjoy like that are illegal by modern zoning codes. It takes a lot of time and money to get the variances and approvals to build anything other than ugly sprawly crap surrounded by a parking lot.

Nate, they tore down the real city here. It’s buried under the quarry, an appropriately suburban shopping center in the middle of the city.

And I don’t hate suburbs per se, I just think it’s unhealthy how they’ve become the dominant form of living. I’m also appalled at the stark cheapness and ugliness and lack of foresight that went into most of the modern ones. You can tell they were thrown up to turn a profit and not because anyone cared about building a real community.

I think all of the smarmy suburb-haters on this site better move in with wayne.

I hear he has a new tv…

I do, but I’m not looking for roommates. I can let you know about vacancies in my building if you’re interested, though!

It’s the same problem that my small hometown has. Everybody gets excited when Wal-Mart comes to town, but they don’t think about what really happens when Wal-Mart opens in a town that can’t support both a big retail store and a downtown. Wal-Mart drains the small business owners downtown and all the money goes to Mr. Wal-Mart in Atlanta or where ever. It doesn’t help the community. It doesn’t create community. In the end, there’s a Wal-Mart on the west end of town that has raped the community and left a shell of a ghost town where the downtown used to be.

These suburbs would be wise to learn from that and keep the big corporate chains out.

Why don’t they open one of a kind antique stores or boutiques in this “faux downtowns”? Instead of Chicos and Pier Ones?

Nate, they tore down the real city here. It’s buried under the quarry, an appropriately suburban shopping center in the middle of the city.

Actually as obvious as it sounds the Quarry was an abandoned rock quarry that mostly housed some green houses before the Quarry was developed. Before it was a quarry it was likely river bottom sometime during the Cretaceous.

Also, since we’re kind of talking about suburbs and sprawl, there was this article in the NYT today about how oil companies are managing to make old fields good to the last drop and expand their extractable reserves. The thing is, this miraculous doubling in capacity (from like 260B barrels to ~600B barrels) is still only about 20 years at current use (~30B barrels/year), and much less if the rate of growth in demand keeps up.

But somehow now oil is not a problem at all? I don’t quite follow that …

(ps, this relates because suburbs are built on the promise of cheap oil for commuting by car)
(pps, it’s about the oil field on the edge of the town I grew up in! ew)

This is strange. I had a dream last night that they drained the lake I grew up on and bulldozed it over into a park & ride. Not sure what that means. The communities of my youth are forever gone?

oh sorry, I should point out those numbers were for the saudi reserves. But since that’s where most of our cheap oil comes from …

Very little of our oil comes from the Saudis.
It’s mostly from Canada and Mexico.

I wonder what the general reaction was WAY back in the day when towns started, say Stillwater. Since it was all local business feeding local needs, I imagine there was nothing but good will and positive urban development.

So, if these small McTowns were to go about the business of doing that sort of development, is it possible that in 75 years we might look at some of these invented towns as cool places? Everything was invented from nothing at some point.

Wayne – prior to three hours ago I didn’t know the Quarry existed. However, I really needed a swim suit for my trip to Florida next week, and there’s this really quaint little boutique called Old Navy that I Googled. My goodness! The Quarry is such a cute, character-filled place.

Very little of our oil comes from the Saudis.
It’s mostly from Canada and Mexico.

Here in Minnesota, it’s almost all from Canada. Then again, there’s the fuel we grow ourselves.

McStop with the McPutting Mc in front of McEverything. McLook at the Motorola McRAZR to McSee what McHappens when something gets McOverused and its McBrand gets McDiluted. For McChrist’s sake.

What was I…oh ya, the Quarry. Everyone there seems to be oblivious to the world around them. Plus it’s laid out in such a way that you can’t park in one spot and go to all the stores. Who wants that? McNot me.

This is what happens when democrats move to the suburbs. They try to bring elements of the city along with them and it doesn’t work. Thank god. Stay in the city where you belong, people. You built this nightmare, now you can live in it like the rest of us.

Very little of our oil comes from the Saudis.
It’s mostly from Canada and Mexico.

Very little of our oil comes from Saudi Arabia, but the vast majority of the world’s collective production surplus is in Saudi Arabia, and the vast amounts of cheaply available crude from Saudia Arabia keeps the cost of all the other oil produced on earth down.

The Quarry reminds me of that big box bullshit in Midway on University – A complete clusterfuck

Kwatt’s right. That’s how we got stuck with Kevin McHale.

You just can’t control yourself, can you, Maz?

Oh, I’m in complete control here.

alamn – That fuel we grow is now being processed by coal? Curious about your thoughts.

maz – this is one of your finest moments. I have never heard someone equate the suburbs with the Dems. I taught in the ‘burbs for 12 years. I could have sworn I was in a squarely conservative, Repub environ, but I guess I misinterpreted the GW stickered SUVs and yard signs. I see now it was satire! Silly me.

If you look at those blue/red maps of the US, you’re right. Huge pockets of RED in the cities and then oceans of BLUE in the suburbs and rural areas.

Awesome stuff fella!

to the suburbs:
wah, wah, wah. take your fakey neighborhoods and fakey downtowns and don’t cry to the rest of us about why they don’t work

Ha! That there is a four star comment.

Seems like a general developer’s idea of community means putting buildings close to each other and a park in the middle.

And as far as it being Dems… How can they come back to the city until they’ve completed their mission of turning your daughters into gay multicultural drug addicts on welfare?

“Oh, I’m in complete control here.”

How Alexander Haig of you!

I love the evolution of this thread…suburban condos to Saudi Oil – and somehow it all makes sense. Well, to someone it does, anyway!

I guess the bottom line is whether you want to go Up The Country or live Downtown we all love Our House.

Now stay out of my yard!

Actually as obvious as it sounds the Quarry was an abandoned rock quarry that mostly housed some green houses before the Quarry was developed. Before it was a quarry it was likely river bottom sometime during the Cretaceous.

Yes, but after it was mined out they dumped most of the wreckage of downtown east and the gateway district into the empty quarry. Then they put some fill on it, did some remediation and built a strip mall. I spent a few hours looking up the history of the quarry last summer.

Very little of our oil comes from Saudi Arabia, but the vast majority of the world’s collective production surplus is in Saudi Arabia, and the vast amounts of cheaply available crude from Saudia Arabia keeps the cost of all the other oil produced on earth down.

Thank you. I was too busy working to reply to that in a timely fashion, but this is what I would have said.

What’s wrong with places that have a problem, e.g., no community core or lack of variety, or lack of walkability, or sprawl, taking baby steps to improve? Rome… one day? Is the real issue not infrastructure but the homogeneity of people in such places?

“You can tell they were thrown up to turn a profit and not because anyone cared about building a real community.”
– - –
Wayne:

Most every non-governmental building you see was “put up to turn a profit.” You think the developers of the older styles and stocks were more concerned with “building a real community” than turning a profit? Guess again. The suburb builders make profits only because people with money to spend on housing see the houses in the burbs, and then buy them.

Builders can’t “turn a profit” like magic, just by thinking venal, wetland-draining thoughts and clicking their heels together. They make a living by trying to build what they think people want to buy. The vast, reaching burbs don’t exist in spite of what lots of people want – they exist because they were and are what lots of people people want.
.

“maz – this is one of your finest moments. I have never heard someone equate the suburbs with the Dems.“
– - -
I think you read him wrong. His point, I thought, (and I’m not agreeing with him here, just maybe clarifying) was that the burbs were traditionally a Republican territory, but now, as Dems also move out, they’re trying to bring their beloved city environment with them.

I’ll buy the first part. The burbs used to be mostly Republican. They seem to be close to even these days. In Eden Prairie, we elect about equal numbers.
.

Kwatt’s right. That’s how we got stuck with Kevin McHale.

Boooooooooooo.

Kwatt’s right. That’s how we got stuck with Kevin McHale.

Boooooooooooo.

Heh! And dito!

Boooooooooo. Run while you can KG, run while you can!

What is this “real city” of which we speak? Is it the Hooters on Block E?

You’re not looking very hard, are you? I’d say for our size, we do damn fine. There’s only one New York City, and it seems stupid to be all self-deprecating at every possible opportunity.

Thank you bobby, that’s exactly what I meant. Republicans have never been shy about seeking more space to move around in or schools that actually work. But recent election results tell us that democrats have indeed been climbing over the berlin wall. They’ve had to sneak out of town in the dead of night lest their DFL block captain see them and accuse them of being a rat leaving the sinking ship, or worse, a racist.

But although they may be deserting the city, it seems they still need that collectivist paradise of community, featuring “downtowns,” lavish city halls, an army of bureaucrats, chi-chi grocery co-ps, quaint coffee houses, and sidewalks to teach their helmeted and kneepad-wearing kids how to ride their bikes, etc. Seems you can take the boy out of the city, but you can’t take the city out of the boy.

“Oh, I’m in complete control here.”

How Alexander Haig of you!

Realtor, you win big for the Alexander Haig reference.
Sadly, noone here at work ever gets that one.

chi-chi grocery co-ps

I prefer to call them “self-esteem grocerias”

Whenever I feel like depressing myself, I try to imagine the world as it would be in maz’s fantasy. Once you casually dismiss good planning (collective in nature, not a dirty word) and anything that’s the least bit unique, genuine, or has any personality whatsoever, you’re left with the eastern suburbs of denver, miles upon miles of disgusting mazes of cul-de-sacs and mcmansions and wal-marts. Please maz, please, tell us why you want this. Why is this your vision?

All I know about Alexander Haig I learned from Doonesbury comics.

But although they may be deserting the city, it seems they still need that collectivist paradise of community, featuring “downtowns,” lavish city halls, an army of bureaucrats, chi-chi grocery co-ps, quaint coffee houses, and sidewalks to teach their helmeted and kneepad-wearing kids how to ride their bikes, etc. Seems you can take the boy out of the city, but you can’t take the city out of the boy.

Can you give an example of anywhere this has happened?

Last time I checked, your fancy suburbs were built on the backs of Big Bad Gov’mit Fannie Mae and Freddie Mack. Maybe you should convince all of your self-made Republican neighbors to pay for their houses in cash instead of taking part in the Great Crypto-Commie Mortgage Swindle?

“Can you give an example of anywhere this has happened? “
– - -
A. The Minnetonka development spoken of above (Glen Lake, really) has been “discussed” along highly partisan lines, and the pro-eminent-domain group (of one particular political persuasion) carried the day with the city council. I remember one specific citizen recommendation from the last variance brochure, that just seems to cry out “MLH, tell Maz you’re sorry!”. I excerpt (from http://www.eminnetonka.com/your_government/meetings/city_council/2007/02/26/agendas/part_d_14b_1.pdf if you want to check) :

“I am strongly in favor of the whole Glen Lake Grove development
moving forward and would support the proposed amendment to the plan allowing the developer to alter the plan for The Exchange to allow more apartments to be built. I feel strongly that the Glen Lake Grove location should be given every opportunity to develop as a downtown area that can become a focus for the community to meet and interact. We already have an outstanding supermarket in place there, Fresh Seasons, that has been a wonderful addition to the neighborhood. This together with other great stores such as Caribou and the Stonehaven spa, to cite a couple of examples, have begun the process of creating a true neighborhood center for our suburb. However, to ensure the successful renovation of the area and the financial viability of these and future new stores, we need to make every effort to help the residential development of the area to proceed with all speed. As someone who has lived in Europe for many years, I miss the local pedestrian based, village-style neighborhoods so evident in many parts of Europe which help to engender such a strong sense of community and family within a residential area. Put simply, it would be great to have a local area where I could walk about with my wife and kids, do a little shopping and get a cup of coffee, ice cream or enjoy a nice meal in a couple of good restaurants.“

As for the mess that is Fannie ‘n Freddie, couldn’t agree more, and glad you support Bush’s calls for more oversight.

heh. Who knew? Well, me of course.

In Maz’s suburb they sniff glue.

However, I really needed a swim suit for my trip to Florida next week,

Oh Nathan. They don’t wear swimming suits where we go on Florida!!!!

I used to enjoy Mnspeak.

Not so much anymore.
It’s filled with hateful assholes and in an attempt to not become one of them I’m taking a break.

Have fun! I can only imagine that it will be more troll filled and less entertaining in the future when I check back.

Yeah Andrew. That crack about sniffing glue was really mean.

Ooo, I know. And the link was even meaner.

I grew up in a town with a real main street. Here’s where the mock main street thing isn’t working:

On a real main street there is ebb and flow of traffic. On the Maple Grove psuedo-mainstreet the traffic is almost always heavy, bumper to bumper chaos. Perhaps if they’d created a large amount of underground parking with entrances at each end of the town it would have limited that chaotic mall feel.

Real main streets have real homes around them – usually within a block of most of the businesses. These home owners have routines that involve walking to the main street to gather such as seniors meeting for morning coffee etc. In the Maple Grove psuedo-mainstreet area its quite a walk from any home to main street. I think there are a few condos in reasonable walking distance but if you want to walk beyond the mainstreet there are no sidewalks to speak of just parking lots to cross.

Behind the “town” are giant parking lots and giant super stores. Traffic and asphalt does not create an atmophere of relaxed community.

Bobby_b,
What does any of that have to do with eminent domain?

Besides that, I don’t see what’s wrong in that lady’s suggestion. If “a strong sense of community and family within a residential area” and being able to walk to the corner to get coffee your own neighborhood is liberal, what’s that make conservatives? Anti-family, sleepy and fat?

All these attempts at building pseudo communities will do is ensure that the sprawl outward will continue as people who moved away from the cities to avoid such an environment, will move away from the “village” to escape it as well. It’s a natural phenomenon that some people seek community and others seek wide-open spaces and privacy. People who decry sprawl and truly want to stop it would do well to defeat measures that attempt to make their burb into a pseudo home town that perpetuates this continual search for more space and less community. IMHO.

My brother and his wife bought 40 acres in Hugo 30 years ago when they were a million miles from nowhere. That’s why they did it. Now Hugo is so built up that they have neighbors within a quarter mile on either side of them and they’re looking to move because it’s “too crowded.”

people who moved away from the cities to avoid such an environment, will move away from the “village” to escape it as well

Already happening….go to the megaplex theater in Maple Grove on a Friday night…you’ll see the same scared look on the faces of the folks from Albertville & beyond that you would see on the faces of folks from Maple Grove in downtown Minneapolis on a Friday night.

Now Hugo is so built up that they have neighbors within a quarter mile on either side of them and they’re looking to move because it’s “too crowded.”

Aw…

While they’re out there spending loot like no tomorrow, working people in the city get to enjoy their growing equity with houses that will actually be worth more in a year than they are today.

They paid about $35,000 for their property over 30 years ago. Today its worth about $15k an acre. You do the math.

I’d love to have been a farmer in Otsego, Maple Grove, Hugo, etc. only to sell it off for millions later on. Sounds like your bro is sitting pretty sweet, Maz.

15k an acre to turn it into a housing subdivision.

They paid about $35,000 for their property over 30 years ago. Today its worth about $15k an acre. You do the math.

And they’re going to throw it all away because Hugo is “too crowded”?

Some things are more important than money I guess. (Especially if you don’t need it).

no, from all the crap you spew money must be THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN THE WORLD AND THE ONLY THING WORTH LIVING FOR!

or are you a flip-flopper? What’s up, John Kerry!

Don’t look now, wayne, but the invisible hand of the free market is giving you the finger.

I think the invisible hand is giving maz an invisible handjob too

I think that’s called The Stranger, wayne.

No, I don’t believe these new entities in places like Maple Grove will necessarily replace traditional downtowns in towns like Stillwater and Excelsior (or, for that matter, Minneapolis).

They will, however, provide a central place for residents of newer suburban communities. What you must realize is that, with today’s economic realities, there is a need to surround the less-profitable Main Streets with big-box retailing.

Having lived in Maple Grove for nearly two decades, I can tell you that the evolution of Main Street has helped create a better sense of place for residents. I am not saying it has evolved into a full-blown, summer parade-route, local hangout. But it has provided a building block for residents to feel a sense of place. As more development occurs around the lakes, the city will begin to implement its Vision Plan for the Public Spaces at Arbor Lakes, a study the city had contracted out several years back including green spaces, promenades around the lakes, walking paths, and much more.

I realize that many of you see the ideal community as possessing specific elements. But those elements are not the same for everyone. For some, simply having a downtown area is enough to feel that sense of identity. I don’t for one second believe that the “traditional, small-town” or “downtown CBD” model can work in every city. What works for one place will not necessarily work for another.

So please, give these new Main Streets some respect. City planners in places like Maple Grove are doing a phenomenal job, given the market realities they must deal with on a daily basis. The lofty ideals those in the planning field would love to see come to fruition are just that… ideals. Something to work toward. Unfortunately, the economic factor will almost always win the battle against what we see as the ideal urban development.

Land in Maple Grove is selling for upwards of $300,000 per acre.

We toured one house there on Parade of Homes last year… the lot was 1/3 of an acre overlooking wetlands (a.k.a. the guarantee of no house in your backyard).

The realtor representing the homebuilder said the lot cost $280,000 (just for the 1/3 of an acre).

The house price? A cool million dollars.

I agree with New Guy’s theory. Suburbs will happen. Sprawl will happen. Assuming these to be true, let’s be smart about it under the circumstances and try new things.

I do think there’s a “return to the city” movement happening with empty nesters who no longer need whatever perceived benefits the suburbs had for their children. Now, they’re just bored and are moving back to the city. Look at the developments in North Loop, along the river, and the Grant St. condos. Many of those units are to accommodate people returning to the city sans kids.

Suburbs and sprawl will only happen as long as people can still afford to drive to and from them. Wait till that hat drops.

Wow. “The Stranger” is new to me. That’s hilarious. I learn so much here at mnspeak! I really prefer getting intimate with a good friend, not a stranger. Different strokes, as they say.

One thing that’s not being mentioned (or being forgotten) in the discussion of the new “Main Streets” like Arbor Lakes, or what replaced the old Apache Mall, is that they aren’t truly “public spaces.” They’re no more public than the Mall of America, Rosedale, or Southdale, etc.

Want to have a parade? Want to “meet and greet” in your campaign for city council, get petitions signed for some cause, pass out literature for your favorite candidate? Betterhope that the CEO of Opus agrees with you.

mnblrmkr,

Excellent point. I tried explaining that to family in Maple Grove and they thought it was crazy. That’s probably the true problem with these new “downtowns.” A lack of “place” is troubling but nothing compared to this.

“Bobby_b,
What does any of that have to do with eminent domain?“

– - -

In order to clear out a large space in which to plunk down a new downtown, you can either go to each individual landowner and try to make a deal, or simply go to your friendly, “the community is more important than the individual” city council and get them to take the land for you. (Keep in mind, Kelo was decided during the planning phase of the Glen Lake spot.) The willingness of cities to take property has increased over the last decade.

.

Does it make sense that a single land owner can hold hostage a project that will improve the community?

That’s a real question, and it obviously raises the equally valid question of whether any given project truly improves the community. However, if all of the other land owners have agreed to sell at fair market values, and now there’s one left, they are operating from a position of unfair power, and eminent domain seems to me like a reasonable option. They will still receive fair market value price, as determined by the court system.

Don’t they usually plunk them down on the abundant open land in the suburbs? Not necessarily anywhere near the actual center of town?

“Does it make sense that a single land owner can hold hostage a project that will improve the community?“

– - -

Yes.

In order to clear out a large space in which to plunk down a new downtown, you can either go to each individual landowner and try to make a deal, or simply go to your friendly, “the community is more important than the individual” city council and get them to take the land for you. (Keep in mind, Kelo was decided during the planning phase of the Glen Lake spot.)

The framers of the constitution explicitly left the ability for the government to take with just compensation for a reason. Kelo followed very settled law, it didn’t create any new rights in the government. Libertarians and conservatives wouldn’t be so angry if ED only affected the poor. But when it comes to Minnetonka, they go haywire.

wayne,

It depends on where you’re talking about. They aren’t all just “plunked” down wherever there is open land. Some newer suburbs seem to forming around new town centers, mostly on the periphery of the TC. Cities like Maple Grove reserved land for a town center. MG has a huge asset in the Gravel Mining Area, where they have created a special master plan to avoid haphazard development.

In essence, it really doesn’t make a difference whether the residential or commercial component comes first. If new houses are built out on the periphery of the Twin Cities and the retail is later built in a different part of the city, it doesn’t matter. Other houses can still be built around that new town center. Not everybody can live close to the town center of the suburb. The main problem resides in transportation and the fact that suburbs are automobile-based. But that’s a whole other conversation…

PS- I was first just asking what the “European lady” with the coffee shops and whatnot had to do with ED.

mnblrmkr and acalhoun,

Regarding your comments about public space in retail construction…

I don’t think anybody is proposing that these new main streets are genuine public spaces. I certainly don’t believe that they are. I do, however, believe they can still be a place of identity, despite their being owned by Opus or Prudential or any other developer.

More importantly, I mentioned in my first post that Arbor Lakes does indeed have a public spaces plan for Arbor Lakes. It is called the Vision Plan for Public Spaces in Arbor Lakes. I have attempted to post the link below. (I believe it’s about 13MB)

http://www.ci.maple-grove.mn.us/filestorage/139/161/VISION-PLAN.pdf

The plan includes detailed planning around the three Arbor Lakes and I have to say that I am impressed with it. Of course, this all depends on funding (just like everything else) so we can only hope that it will come to fruition. But that fact that the City hired BKV to create this means that they are serious about it.

I truly don’t believe that Main Street is meant to be a public space. It is meant to give the feeling of a community space where people can gather to shop, eat and have fun. If one would like to schedule a protest or large gathering, he need walk no more than a couple of blocks to the public spaces behind Main Street.

Side note: there is indeed housing within the Main Street area. I know some people here have stated otherwise. The developments are called Just Off Main and Just Off Main East (which is further away). They were built by Hans Hagen homes back in 1998, I believe, and they look quite nice. Red brick, great-looking roof angles and rod iron fencing. Also, the Bridges at Arbor Lakes (194 townhomes built by Opus) are within walking distance (www.bridgesatarborlakes.com).

The city has plans to develop over 2,000 new units of largely medium to high-density housing over the next 10-20 years in the Gravel Mining Area. This area will have extensive paths and the high-densities should enable a higher concentration of activity than in a traditional suburban neighborhood.

Not all suburbs are building the same old, same old. Certain cities are trying to be more progressive in their planning patterns. I am pretty involved with the City of Maple Grove and know many of the officials there. I can say, with confidence, that they are trying their best to do something different in the Gravel Mining Area. But as I’ve mentioned, market realities force some of the ideas into submission. I would LOVE to see what could happen with Maple Grove’s GMA if the economic factor was non-existent.

Sorry for the long post.

By the way, suburbs and “sprawl” will continue to happen regardless of gas prices.

Why do people choose to live where they do? To be fair, one must take the following into consideration: house quality, size, location, size of the lot and/or usable yard space, character of the neighborhood, size of the community, among MANY other factors. Clearly, the suburbs have a strong draw because 2/3 of Americans now live in suburbs. Why do people choose to live there? A combination of many reasons. Perceived safety, newness (giving some sort of sense of perfection), bigger houses, more space, and the list goes on. Of course, the cities have their draws, too. Densities (allowing closer proximities to goods and services), sidewalks that lead somewhere other than a nature path or cul-de-sac, a generally higher level of cultural diversity, and much more.

I’m just rambling off what everyone already knows. Families often choose suburbs because they believe the schools are better, among other things. But the difference between living in the city vs suburb is not going to be greatly affected by gas prices.

How much does it cost financially to move your family from Eden Prairie to Minneapolis? What social connections are broken by doing so? Is it worth it? For most people, the answer is probably no. If gas prices hit $4.00 per gallon, most people will cut back in other areas. It means they will spend a few hundred dollars extra per year on gas but won’t buy that new SUV they’ve been wanting. I really don’t believe people are going to make a mad rush back to the city because of gas prices. Maybe a handful of empty-nesters and young people, but the vast majority will find a way to maintain their current lifestyle.

“Kelo followed very settled law, “
– - -
In the sense that “very settled law” came first, and then there was Kelo, sure. I “follow” some very law-abiding drivers, sometimes, too.

What it did was get rid of that pesky “blight” problem – now, your city council can take your land and give it to a developer simply because the developer finds a use for it that will generate more tax money. Before, they had to at least fake a showing that the property being taken in such a scheme was “blighted” – i.e., it was a harm to the public in and of itself. (I say “fake” in light of Richfield’s Best Buy dabacle.)

Nice try on the libs v. cons, though. Who do you think will ultimately feel the greater harm from this: poor people whose old homes or apartments occupy space on which Irwin Jacobs decides condos would look nicer, or rich people with the expensive lawyers who will now move on to mastering the compensation side of the equation?
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“I was first just asking what the “European lady” with the coffee shops and whatnot had to do with ED.“
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Sorry, I missed this comment. The “European lady” and the comment in the variance brochure were the main support for the rebuttal when Maz was ridiculed for suggesting that the very types of reasons and rationales as the comment praised could form the basis for this new “DT” movement. The ED comment was made simply because, in my experience, the easier availability of that route – the new paradigm that seems to hold that the collective wish for a better pastry shop nearby is more important than traditional concepts of property rights – is, first, a more-liberal-than-conservative view, and, second, makes it ever so much easier whenever someone forms a desire to impose their social views about the use of specific property on the people who own the property.
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If everyone would just do things the way I want them to, then there wouldn’t be any problems!

Bobby knows, of course, that subsequent legislation in Minnesota has rendered Kelo moot. It is now very difficult for municipalities to use ED for anything but the most black and white of public purposes, and even then they’d better have a slew of attorneys at the ready.

Guess who are the big winners? Yep, it’s the lawyers. Again.

alamn – That fuel we grow is now being processed by coal? Curious about your thoughts

Sorry, I missed this. We think it’s a lousy idea, and we have told them as much.

“Bobby knows, of course, that subsequent legislation in Minnesota has rendered Kelo moot. It is now very difficult for municipalities to use ED for anything but the most black and white of public purposes . . .“

Yes, thank goodness – legislators did rewrite major portions of 117.012 in ‘06, and they did learn the Kelo lessons. “Public purpose” is now back to sanity, as opposed to following the “oh, but if the public really wants it . . .” blather of Stevens, Kennedy, Souter, Ginsburg and Breyer. And, they took pains to make a detailed definition of “blight”, something the MN S Crt thought meant “messy, or pink, or not where I would choose to live” back when Richfield took all those houses and businesses for Best Buy.

To your point of how “the conservatives love ED now”: again, WHICH set of Justices voted yes on Kelo? Not the conservatives. And wasn’t Ms. Bachman one of the authors of the ED bill above?

(Minnetonka hurried through the process in the Glen Lake taking to beat the statutory enactment, IIRC.)

“Guess who are the big winners? Yep, it’s the lawyers. Again.“

Hey, three words: Go to law school.
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To your point of how “the conservatives love ED now”…

I don’t recollect trying to make that point. The conservatives have made it very clear, in their reactions to Kelo, that they’re still worshiping at (or is it pandering to?) the pyre of private property rights.

No room for nuance in this debate, that’s for damned sure. You’re either stealing land out from under somebody’s grandma, or you’re hunkered down in the living room with a shotgun and a week’s supply of Armor Chili, waiting for the bulldozers to come.

“I don’t recollect trying to make that point.“

Could be that I misinterpreted something you typed. When you said this:

Libertarians and conservatives wouldn’t be so angry if ED only affected the poor. But when it comes to Minnetonka, they go haywire.

. . I thought you were implying that Kelo resulted in a change in ED that conservatives wanted. Sorry if I got that wrong.

As for nuance: Our society probably couldn’t function without some form of ED. I like roads. But, public taking ought to have to meet a very high burden. Kelo took a system that was already pushing the ridiculous concerning “public purpose” and “public use”, and just completely removed any justification for it beyond “we want it.” As you might be able to tell, I think that’s very wrong.
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Could be that I misinterpreted something you typed. When you said this:

That was somebody else. Don’t worry about it.

Cool. So, I’m responding to your comment by continuing on with an unrelated discussion involving a different person.

No reason my commenting here shouldn’t follow the same logical progression as has my workday so far, I guess.

I blame the lack of amphetamines.

And I picked the wrong week to stop taking quaaludes.

It’s a good thing that Max is keeping an eye out for spam in the old threads.

Nothing to see here, just some land policy wonks sparring. Move along.

The funny thing is, you have the suburban developers trying to recreate Stillwater’s downtown, when the downtown area there is having trouble sustaining itself, due to the slow winter months and high tax increases.

http://www.stillwatergazette.com/articles/2007/01/26/news/news130.txt

The fact remains that you see sprawl like Bloomington and Woodbury because it MAKES PEOPLE MONEY.

Look at how Block E is limping at times and how the City Center might as well be a Home Depot with all the plywood covering up storefronts.

The conservatives have made it very clear, in their reactions to Kelo, that they’re still worshiping at (or is it pandering to?) the pyre of private property rights.

I plead guilty as charged. I used to live near that New London neighborhood when I was stationed in New London (duh). Those people who were victimized in Kelo are the salt of the earth and they sure ain’t rich.

“Public purpose” is now back to sanity, as opposed to following the “oh, but if the public really wants it . . .” blather of Stevens, Kennedy, Souter, Ginsburg and Breyer.

These people aren’t constitutionalists. They’re not even small r republicans. They’re collectivists and they’re dangerous because they have a vote on the SCOTUS. Those who believe in the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of private property need to remember this when the senate race determines who will replace those whose seats will most likely become vacant in the next few years (stevens and ginsburg).

>> Go to law school

One, two, three……..four.

Took you long enough.

(The joke is, we all chose law school because there would be no math.)

If gas prices hit $4.00 per gallon, most people will cut back in other areas. It means they will spend a few hundred dollars extra per year on gas but won’t buy that new SUV they’ve been wanting. I really don’t believe people are going to make a mad rush back to the city because of gas prices. Maybe a handful of empty-nesters and young people, but the vast majority will find a way to maintain their current lifestyle.

Not when real wages have been on the decline and everyone’s banking on the value of their house going up to save them. Most people already live outside their means and are unwilling to compromise this, so they just borrow the money in various ways. Some people use credit cards, others use their home equity like a line of credit and keep refinancing. Either way, the current level of overconsumption can’t keep up indefinitely, and all it will take to bring everthing crashing down is a little bit of panic when someone realizes that the economy can’t keep running on vapors.

You might think it’s the ‘wonderful schools’ or whatever in the suburbs that makes people move there, but generally it comes down to the economics of it in many cases. They can get more bang for their buck. If their commute price doubles or triples, their buck is suddenly not going as far anymore.

Most people already live outside their means and are unwilling to compromise this, so they just borrow the money in various ways. Some people use credit cards, others use their home equity like a line of credit and keep refinancing.

Right, some people use credit cards, some use their home equity like it’s a line of credit, and others simply cut back on the unncessary items in life (the morning coffee, the newest electronic gadget at Best Buy, whatever). The point is that, while gas prices certainly impact a family’s budget in a negative way, it is not enough of a justification for most families to move to the city. It’s unrealistic to think that an annual increase of maybe $300 will send people running back to urban life. That’s similar to saying that there will be another mass exodus to the suburbs if gas prices suddenly return to 1950s pricing. I would be willing to bet that a large majority of people in the TC are already living where they want to live and are largely unwilling to change their lifestyles because of a several hundred dollar increase in their annual spending.

When it comes right down to it, most statistics will show that surburban schools generally outperform urban schools. Economics and perceptions of better educational opportunities will continue to drive suburban development. Families will surely take into consideration the quality of schools when looking for a new home. That means that they will most likely be focusing on suburban neighborhoods. Don’t you agree?

I have a lot of sympathy for suburbs. On the one hand, there is a very active competition among suburbs for residents. As a result, economic development directors are under a lot of pressure to generate new municipal revenue. One way to accomplish this is to lure high-income people to one’s town (hence the luxury condos and “upscale” shopping).

Also (sorry to wax a bit philosophical here!), I think that humans have a deep-seated need for community and the public company of their fellow men (and women). Suburbs are largely isolating experiences. While it’s true that there are many community activities in suburbs (school events, churches, etc.), suburban residential life, and its dependence on the automobile, make it difficult to experience a truly public life.

Anyway, the push for downtown re-creation reflects both these desires…

–Steve (http://grossreport.blogspot.com)

Also (sorry to wax a bit philosophical here!), I think that humans have a deep-seated need for community and the public company of their fellow men (and women). Suburbs are largely isolating experiences.

I think your biases are showing. If all humans had a deep-seeded need for community, the suburbs wouldn’t exist. Or do you think the largely isolating experiences are by accident? One thing you’ll notice while you’re out here is that we have a large number of lakes. Many of these lakes have small islands in them. I know two people personally who bought such lake islands to build homes on.

I notice you’re a software developer. It’s ironic, because the people I know who bought those islands and the people I know who most seek out isolation are software developers. heh.

“Suburbs are largely isolating experiences. While it’s true that there are many community activities in suburbs (school events, churches, etc.), suburban residential life, and its dependence on the automobile, make it difficult to experience a truly public life.“

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I’m not sure where you’re getting your info, but it’s not from my suburb. Here, on any nice day outside, you’ll see tons of kids playing either in the streets together or in someone’s yard or pool, and many adults will be walking around and visiting and gathered in various yards for some frisbee and beer, (well, there’s usually a frisbee somewhere nearby, I think), or sitting on the decks, or you’ll see groups of five to twenty people all get together biking the neighborhood trails and sidewalks, or . . .

Tons of interaction, very much a social scene, and, more and more, transforming the stereotypical suburban inward-oriented house into an outward-facing one, as you see people adding front decks to their homes instead of just sitting on their isolated backyard deck, or actually making use of large openings in the front of their houses by (gasp!) opening drapes that have been, by convention, closed all through the nineties.

It’s not us long-term houseowners who want “downtown” areas in our burbs. It’s the more recent entries – the new condo owners, and the people moving into the new apartment complexes. City council meetings discussing the “downtown” concept in my burb are interesting to watch, because the issue (of “do we even want a DT”) has such different groups on each side. More and more, you’re hearing “if you want a DT so badly, move back to the city you so recently left.”
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