Secrets of the City

Another travesty, brought to you by liberals.

take a life, get yours back! Now for the low price of one guilty plea you can avoid having your own life taken from you by incarceration by saying “I’m so sowwy!”

Isn’t “Billy Ray Deshawn” just a nice local boy?

Bet his parents are fine upstanding citizens.

How would we know, the Strib won’t touch it!

Naw.

“A finding of premeditation, as required to support conviction for first-degree murder, does not require proof of extensive planning or preparation to kill, nor does it require any specific period of time for deliberation; however, State must prove that, after the defendant formed the intent to kill, some appreciable time passed during which the defendant considered, planned, prepared, or determined to commit the act.”

Awful tough to prove premeditation when it happened right there on the spot. This was a good one to plead out.

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689.105 (3) causes the death of a human being with intent to effect the death of the person or another, while committing or attempting to commit burglary, aggravated robbery, kidnapping, arson in the first or second degree, a drive-by shooting, tampering with a witness in the first degree, escape from custody, or any felony violation of chapter 152 involving the unlawful sale of a controlled substance…

Looks like, according to statute, he was guilty of first degree murder.

Man, that’s crap.

ok bud, there’s a difference between noting this sort of injustice and just being a racist prick. You are the latter.

Yes, thanks for that: crap and all the fault of liberalism. Indeed, so brilliantly distilled down to such easily swallowed insights for us all. Easy as taking baby aspirin. Sadly, there is as little to go by in that Strib piece as in these utterly predictable postings, for which you all must have function keys by now. What would be enlightening is to know what the evidentiary weaknesses were in the case that dissuaded the prosecution from taking 1st degree charges to trial? It was less the defendant taking a deal than it was the prosecution. Strib city desk? Mike Freeman?

Have you thought that maybe they didn’t think they could convict him of 1st degree?

Stop watching CSI and Law & Order and start living in the real world.

Really, wayne-o?

How’s that, exactly?

My point being this piece of garbage gets a pass from the judicial system AND the local newspaper.

Whose ‘racist’ again?

Jerk.

609.19 (1) causes the death of a human being with intent to effect the death of that person or another, but without premeditation

I’m guessing the premeditation part was the stickler. It’s pretty clear that shooting the guy in the head constitues “intent to effect the death of a person.”

Still, it’s crap.

No shit he was guilty of first degree murder. This isn’t a liberal-conservative thing, bud. There are certainly no shortage of liberals on this site and you’ll be hard pressed to find any who are okay with this bullshit.

Let’s not jump the papers yet. The stories posted so far (here’s the Strib’s) were just newsbreaks. Let’s see if there’s any further discussion of the plea bargain later tonight or in tomorrow’s papers.

What do you mean the strib wouldn’t touch it, bud? They’ve had a story up for a few hours.

what matt said. it’s utterly asinine and a failure of the justice system.

Awhile back, I posited that the Strib focuses ad nauseum on the victims of these filth, but rarely if ever, gives us an ‘in-depth’ look at the criminal trash.

Why is that?

Because I”M racist?

No, because the Strib will not face the facts about who is committing these heinous atrocities to innocent citizens.

They are protecting the “protected classes”.

I’m pretty sure shooting someone in the head is with the intent to effect the death of that person. I don’t know how you could shoot someone in the head and only expect a fleshwound out of it.

Really, if you don’t intend to kill someone with that gun you’ve got, aim lower.

I realize I don’t know much about the legal system as I should, but why not go for first degree murder? It isn’t like this guy would be walking the streets if they failed to prove intent.

“What would be enlightening is to know what the evidentiary weaknesses were in the case that dissuaded the prosecution from taking 1st degree charges to trial?“

– - -

Proving that, before he walked up to the vic’s car, he had already decided to kill the victim. Not gonna happen.

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bud, i have an open invitation for you. Write a better news article about this murder. No editorializing, just cover the stuff you think the strib should have covered. Submit it as a post and I’ll approve it with a link to the strib article. Then we’ll discuss the differences.

anyone see the report this week that 82% of the robberies in the cities are committed by blacks aged 13-19 (i *think* 19) 82?!!! but of course when kare 11 reported on it, they conveniently left out the black part. i dunno, just seems kinda disingenuous…if you’re gonna report on something, have the balls to report the whole story.

They are protecting the “protected classes”.

Nope, not racist.

And sarcasm tag … off.

What would be enlightening is to know what the evidentiary weaknesses were in the case that dissuaded the prosecution from taking 1st degree charges to trial?

Hey, let’s not throw off the rantings, ravings, and foamings at the mouth with considerations of evidence or actually being able to get the conviction.

Start here;

http://michaelzebuhr.blogspot.com/

cubbie, same “stats” were buried by Strib’s story.

In my book, that’s the HEADLINE.

Wonder why such ‘pertinent’ info is left out?

Because I”M a racist!

http://michaelzebuhr.blogspot.com/

Not that these people don’t have a right to be angry but I’m not going to take anything on there as unbiased.

If the statistic cited by “cubbie” regarding “blacks” and violent crime (nothing on blacks equally disproportionate representation in the victim column) would not be admissable at trial (they would not), then how are they relevant to coverage of this particular crime and its disappointing adjudication? Tell me, budjr, would it be exculpatory in your mind for a white defendant to point to his race’s lower percentage representation in the FBI Uniform Crime Report? Right, it’s irrelevant. Your tendancy to interpret the world through a melanin-tinted prism is why you leave people with the impression that you are a racist. It’s a pretty workable definition for it.

609.19 (1) causes the death of a human being with intent to effect the death of that person or another, but without premeditation

Thanks for quoting statute. I assume that is for 2nd degree.

My point with being upset is that we have a guy who robbed a woman (at random) and then shot her companion in the head, killing him, all without fear for his own safety to justify any level of self-defense, and the guy doesn’t get hit with the highest charge of murder.

Go ahead and mention the race of people breaking into people’s homes as long as you include information about institutional racism, racial profiling, failing schools…I could go on.

Did it look at how poor any of them were? I bet more than 82% of robberies are committed by poor people!

“Not that these people don’t have a right to be angry but I’m not going to take anything on there as unbiased.“

– - -

These are the people who think he may have been killed because of his role in proving 9/11 was an inside job.

I’ll skip the “they’re not unbiased” and go right to “they’re loons.”

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You also don’t know how to use “quotation marks.”

One thing is clear…

bud jr. IS a racist.

(And a sexist stalker of local female television personalities.)

On that much we can all agree.

Yes, I ‘do”.

Schools don’t fail. students do.

But, kwatt, we’ve always ascribed a more dangerous and heartless kind of evil to people who coldly and thoughtfully go about planning to kill someone than what this was, with good reason.

Yeah this was bad, but there is one category worse. If he had confessed that he went out looking for some guy – any guy – so he could kill him, or his buds testified to that, it would be 1st.

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I bet more than 82% of robberies are committed by poor people!

I bet at least 99% of robberies are committed by people with feet. Get rid of the feet, get rid of the robberies.

I still think shooting someone in the head is a pretty clear sign you intended to kill them. Shooting them in the foot and having them bleed to death, sure, 2nd degree is fine. But I think the very act of pointing a gun at someone’s head is enough planning for me to vote guilty.

I assume that is for 2nd degree.

Yes, it is. Sorry for not clarifying.

Intentionally disregarding the detail of race when describing a criminal, criminal act, or suspect

How does one explain that?

Why do victim’s lives get examined ad nauseum and nary a peep about the perps when they are black in our local media?

The original stories about this event did not include race in the suspect descriptions, as I recall.

Obviously I would use the “I didn’t do it because I’m white” defense at trial. Because obviously black people are the only ones committing crimes, and as a white man I couldn’t possible have done it.

Here’s what confuses me, and I don’t have an annotated copy of the MN Criminal Code handy, in most jurisdictions, killing someone during the commission of a felony, in this case robbery, is automatically 1st degree murder, premeditation, lying in wait, murder for hire, etc. well to the side. So I am at a loss to explain why the Henn. County Atty’s office could not make a first-degree murder charge stick at trial. THAT would be interesting to have explained. It is my hope that in the a.m. edition of the Strib, a more complete telling of the story would address this. Unless budjr’s got some omniscient, zuba-clad rightwing blogger who can explain it.

Wayne, the “intent to kill” part is what makes it murder, not manslaughter. 1st or 2nd degree murder, the intent to kill is still there. bobby_b makes a good point.

My emotional reaction is to let the bastard fry, but upon further reflection I don’t think this is an inappropriate punishment.

I bet at least 99% of robberies are committed by people with feet. Get rid of the feet, get rid of the robberies.

That would just make the remaining 1% of footless criminals that much more savage.

“Intent to kill” is one element of 1st degree. “Premeditation” is a second, separate element. You have to prove both, each one beyond a reasonable doubt, and they mean different things.

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Yeah, but you could easily outrun them!

Rascals only go so fast, you know. And they can’t handle curbs and obstacles well.

True to form, the link story now contains the VICTIM’s picture!

Isn’t the STORY about the %^$#ing KILLER?

Signed,

What passes for journalism around here?

I still the premeditation requirement is asinine. You can’t get life unless you plan it out? Give me a break, you still killed someone.

So what is the maximum sentence for quasipremditated 2nd degree murder?

Also what LJK said.

Wayne: As I mentioned, if you kill someone in the course of committing a felony (even if, say, you’re driving the getaway car, don’t even have a gun, but the guy who actually went into the bank does and accidentally kills a customer via a ricochet off a marble pillar from a warning shot) you’re generally eligible for first-degree murder charges. So I don’t think this turns on intent/premeditation. It’s be interesting to know what the weak spot was in the case.

Let’s just cool down until we get the FACTS of the case. I can only assume bud jr has access to the court transcripts, given the zeal of his reactions.

For all we know at this point, a 2nd degree plea was actually good for The People because the Prosecution couldn’t cobble together a decent case.

“I still the premeditation requirement is asinine. You can’t get life unless you plan it out? Give me a break, you still killed someone.“

Remember, though, that’s only subsection 1. Kokonutz raises a great point, which is going to be more troublesome to explain.

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For all we know at this point, a 2nd degree plea was actually good for The People because the Prosecution couldn’t cobble together a decent case.

It also saves the state $$$ for not going to trial.

Getting a guilty plea for the second highest possible charge seems like not a bad thing. No one here knows the quality of the evidence, and as mentioned already, premeditation could have been very difficult to prove.

So what is the maximum sentence for quasipremditated 2nd degree murder?

40 years.

this proves that not only do we need racial profiling but anyone with a dark skin and unproven american bloodlines should assumed guilty until proven innocent.

once again, just like with the anti-truth reporting on iraq, the liberal media has blood on its hands…

So at least he will have a chance to kill again!
Awesome.

First one to respond to that trollbait loses. That is why we need to force registration for commenters. bud is chickenshit.

“this proves that not only do we need racial profiling but anyone with a dark skin and unproven american bloodlines should assumed guilty until proven innocent.“

– - -

Gotcha! You ARE Raindog. I KNEW it!

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bud = colbert?

And my family has been in the US since the 1670s, but we don’t have “American bloodlines”. Sad.

Sometimes its hard to tell whether it’s actually bud speaking, or someone making fun of bud by being as nakedly racist as possible.

Budjr, read the literature. The “insight” in which you take such chest-thumping pride, that certain demographic groups are disproportionately represented in the national crime statistics, is hardly news. But you cannot cover individual cases based on national trends.

And if you’re going to set aside some space on Sunday do a crime trend story using this one as a point of depsarture, then you’ll have to go the trouble to do so within a larger socio/economic context. But for a hair-trigger, unreflective reactionary like yourself, of course, that is, like, such a hassle and not nearly so cathartic and effort-saving as your earlier fascistic spleen-venting. The larger mystery is what it is you think you offer to others in this forum, other than darkly comic relief and a sobering reminder that you are sadly representative of a frightening demo of your own.

I’m considering a suit against bud jr for copyright infringement.

“Getting a guilty plea for the second highest possible charge seems like not a bad thing. No one here knows the quality of the evidence, and as mentioned already, premeditation could have been very difficult to prove.”

– - -

Strongly agree. Saves $40,000-$60,000 in lawyer/judge/courtroom time, (and another $15,000 for the court reporter’s transcripts later), saves all the cops days waiting to testify, plus all the pretrial prep, saves all the expert costs, allows the family to move on instead of rehearsing for days “and then I saw him shoot my son in the head . . .”, gets around the risk that he goes free, gets him out of the jail and into the prison, frees up a (needed) courtroom where they can dispose of 2000 other crim cases with pleas instead of a long trial . . .

And, if you really, really hate how lenient this sounds, hire someone in prison to take him out. I’ve heard $9000 will do it.

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Could anyone pretend to be bud since he isn’t a registered user?

this is the way pleas are done — not only in Minneapolis, but around the country — it’s the way the system works. there is nothing special going on here other than you all are paying attention because it happened in Uptown.

bud jr is everyone

everyone is bud jr

Meow!

there is nothing special going on here other than you all are paying attention because it happened in Uptown.

that was kind of my point when this all happened in the first place. but it’s still unacceptable no matter if they kill a white guy in uptown or a black kid on the north side. it’s never ok.

Bud et al really need to show the world that the killer is a young black man. It’s clear that he (she?) wants us all to understand that young black men are the killers in our midst. We should be afraid of young black men.

He (she?) fails to realize that their blackness has little to do with their criminality. Little disconnect on the causality there, bud.

Take 100 kids — of all colors — who live in stable neighborhoods, attend good schools, have well-educated, caring parents in well-paying jobs, and then take 100 kids who live in impoverished neighborhoods, parents who are absent and/or abusive and have poorly-structured education and out-of-school opportunities. Guess where the criminal element will develop?

Criminals are (a) poor and (b) poorly educated. There are a disproportionate number of young black men in that situation. And when you’re born into that cycle, I imagine it has to be pretty hard to get out. I’m not justifying anyone’s decision to turn to crime, but it has nothing to do with race and everything to do with the social economy.

BTW — I’m gonna take a guess that the prosecutor thought they couldn’t prove premeditation, so they went with the plea. Better to lock the creep up for 30 years than not at all, right? Sucks, but it’s a Hobson’s choice.

I’m surprised you pay attention to me LJKokonatz because I AM NOBODY AND EVERYBODY AL MISMO TIEMPO

and I speak spanish

And, if you really, really hate how lenient this sounds, hire someone in prison to take him out. I’ve heard $9000 will do it.

What about for a few packs of smokes?

Generally, prosecutors get the say-so from the victim or their family before a plea deal is set. This spares his mom and sister (they are the witnesses, if I remember right) from having to testify.

wayne’s watched Shawshank too many times…gotta adjust for inflation.

what, so a couple cartons?

what, so a couple cartons?

Glib much? Missing the point possibly at all while making jokes about taking someone’s life? I lived a block away (5 blocks now) when this happened and walk by the spot often and just can’t muster any internetsnarkiness for this subject.

The REAL Bud jr here…

Davey- the “social economy”?

What type of doublespeak liberal crap is THAT?

Here is the point: Liberal social policies lead to the pathology that results in the type of killings (niehbuhr) and crime (block e) seen here in growing numbers.

Then the liberal media and our liberal pols dance around it. In excruciatingly obvious gyrations.

Simple, really.

That’s my point.

So Bud, then why do countries with even more liberal social policies have much less violent crime?

(sorry for feeding the troll but it’s a question I would like the answer to)

Hey, if the free market wanted to send this guy to prison for life, it would.

But it clearly doesn’t. The invisible hand at work.

Bud jr, your labels are really tedious, but that’s beside the point. Can you help the rest of us understand which policies are at fault here, and help us connect the dots between those policies and the pathology? I’m not disagreeing with you, but some detail might be helpful.

those ‘countries’ do not provide three generations of welfare and politicians that separate people by race and class

get it?

Ad nauseam, not ad nauseum, bud.

The ‘free market’ would have disposed of him by now….

those ‘countries’ do not provide three generations of welfare
Sure they do.

and politicians that separate people by race and class
You mean Karl Rove? or maybe Barry Goldwater, or Strom Thurmond, or Lee Atwater, or W (remember the S. Carolina Primary in 2000?)

Questions for the Star Tribune reporter for tomorrow’s ‘in-depth’ story:

What school did Billy Ray attend?

What kind of student was he?

Where did he live?

How many brothers and sisters does he have?

Who are his parents?

Where do they work?

What do they have to say about this event?

Where did Billy Ray obtain the gun he used?

Was it legally registered?

Signed,

Journalism 101 Professor

Replacing quotation marks with apostrophes just makes the problem worse, bud.

Msparber wins in a knockout!

Bud…let’s say we get all those answers (I know, not likely)…what do you suggest we do with them?

So Bud, then why do countries with even more liberal social policies have much less violent crime?

In fairness to bud, jr., those countries are largely homogenous, and minority groups are disproprotionatey responsible for crime in those countries. In fact, a University of Minnesota law professor has written a book on the subject called Crime, Ethnicity, and Immigration.

By the way, in most jurisdictions (including Minnesota, I imagine), you can prove first degree murder without proving premeditation if the homicide was committed in the course of a felony (e.g., armed robbery).

Glib much? Missing the point possibly at all while making jokes about taking someone’s life? I lived a block away (5 blocks now) when this happened and walk by the spot often and just can’t muster any internetsnarkiness for this subject.

Now that Uptown has been violated, I guess you’ll simply have to move to the suburbs.

I thought the free market need him to scrub toilets or cook french fries or haul garbage.

Oh, wait. The free market decided he could make more money robbing and shooting people in Uptown than cooking french fries.

Looks like the free market wins again.

Actually, as fucked up as Bud Jr clearly is, I think it would be interesting to learn those kinds of things about the suspect. I mean, in trying to reduce crime, doesn’t information help?

Having said that, however, I do believe that everyone is innocent until proven (or admittedly) guilty, so these sorts of questions might be better saved for after a case has been completed, lest they taint the procedure.

I just appreciate the WHOLE story when processing the cold blooded murder of an innocent man in one of our prime city neighborhoods.

Call me crazy!

Hi there, ranty!

Ranty, I’m sorry your neighborhood has more crime than mine, does that mean I can’t care about crime in my neighborhood beacuase yours has more? I’ve lived in the city of mpls for 18 years and have no plans to move to the burbs.

PS – “those kinds of things” was meant to refer to the list of questions, not just race.

No “—”, it doesn’t mean you can’t care about crime in your neighborhood.

I just find it interesting how much attention this case has received, and how many are up in arms about it while others are killed in cold blood with regularity up 94 a bit, and it’s shrugged off, by and large.

I think it makes sense that I would be paying attention, since it happened right by me. If you have a problem with others, like the media, paying disproportionate attention, give them shit not me.

I just find it interesting how much attention this case has received, and how many are up in arms about it while others are killed in cold blood with regularity up 94 a bit, and it’s shrugged off, by and large.

ranty, it’s because white graduate students are much more valuable than black dropouts. Just ask the free marketeers. They’ll be happy to explain.

Course, some of it has to do with timing. The OMGWTFBBQ factor goes *way* up during sweeps week.

Oh, and Minneapolitans in “safe” hoods tend to be pretty glib about NoMpls murder rates too, fyi.

Finally, a voice of reason…

Fine triple-slash, agreed.

(See how reasonable I am?)

Disclaimer:

At the time that I was typing “reasonable,” I had no idea that BJ (hehe) was simultanously referring to “reason.”

By the way, in most jurisdictions (including Minnesota, I imagine), you can prove first degree murder without proving premeditation if the homicide was committed in the course of a felony (e.g., armed robbery).

That’s exactly what the first degree murder statute says, as I quoted at the top.

On the journalism angle, though, the Strib and others are not going to report on the race of the shooter and his background because: 1) a little of it has already been done; and 2) everybody has already made up his mind about the various implications of everything about the shooter: his race, his poverty, whatever. The only fact we can all agree on is that he shot an unarmed, compliant victim in the head in front of his sister and mother. Anyone who thinks he can justify, or even explain that, is kidding himself.

Finally, as H.L. Mencken said: “The common argument that crime is caused by poverty is a kind of slander on the poor.”

And the point is – where the outrage should be directed – is the county didnt have to offer him a plea. There is not a risk of him not going to prison, hes going to get convicted of at least 2nd degree murder anyway. And hes the shooter, youre not bargaining to get the lesser evil here to testify against the more egregious. The whole thing is DUMB.

I was listening to a public radio program a while ago with Mike Freeman and his StP counterpart. (I forget her name.) Among other things, they talked about how they basically only want to prosecute cases they can win.

So perhaps they didn’t think they could win on 1st degree.

I presume we have not heard the end of this story, and hope that some reporter will ask the CA and/or his staff about the deal.

Yeah, so the Strib could do an in-depth story about this killer, and his parents, and his upbringing, and where he went wrong, and his whole freaking life story (including his race), and Bud Jr. and his cohorts would bitch that the Liberal Media is making us feel sorry for him or making him into a sympathetic character.

Whatever. He won’t be happy until the headline is “Evil Negroes strike again.”

Among other things, they talked about how they basically only want to prosecute cases they can win.

This tells me they have no confidence that a local jury would be smart enough to convict.

30 will probably be a life sentence, anyway. Prison doesn’t do much for longevity. If it’s what the family wants, I’m all for it.

Also, it’s tricky as hell to avoid premeditation after you point a gun at someone’s head. Premeditation isn’t like a plan, it just means you had a chance to change your mind, and you chose not to.

It is what it is, and I suppose the Strib is under no real obligation to confirm the biases of its readers, whatever they may be. Im past the point where I need them to tell me the perps are black, or what have you.

The Strib just published a short profile on the Waseca killer. A stupid piece that treated the perp there with some sentimentality (we never would have expected this from him, he was unremarkable&blah, blah, blah). Im sure we will get a similar story about the Zebuhr killers here in the future, one that somehow mitigates the abhorence of their actions.

And the kicker will be, the editorial staff will continue to attempt to guilt us over things like education cuts and social service cuts and poverty that dont really exist. Thats the crock!

The Strib is inadequate in so many ways…

With a few drinks under my belt, I am prepared to express my sincere views on this subject.

Centuries ago, Galileo reminded the world what Greek astronomers had long thence realized — that the sun was at the center of the solar system. The intelligentisia dismissed this theory as blasphemy, content in the righteousness of their belief that the earth (as all that is holy) stood at the center of the solar system.

In this day, a new truth has become blasphemy. Namely, the intelligenstsia will brand you a heretic if you acknowledge what is manifest to anyone who cares to notice — that there is a culture of violence, misogyny, and “getting mine (without effort and with utter disregard for all others)” which is distinctively prevalent within the African-American community.

To those who blame poverty, I ask: Why is North Dakota’s incarceration rate a fraction of Alabama’s? Why is Wynn Las Vegas (with rooms priced well above what the average cracler can afford) the scene of a melee on NBA All-Star weekend? Why do you excuse homicide by a downtrodden African-American in the same breath that you condemn a dowtrodden white American for using the n-word?

It must be that blacks are violent, and their culture is depraved. Thank god you’ve pointed this out to us Galileo.

Christ. Racists always think they’re onto some great truth that the rest of us are blind to.

I don’t blame poverty. It’s just that violent crimes, carjackings, and streetcorner thuggery is the sort of crime that is available to the poor. The rich get away with much bigger crimes, such as starting illegal wars, invading sovereign nations, killing tens or hundreds of thousands of their citizens (a well as thousands of our own), and manages to turn a massive profit for themselves and their cronies in the meanwhile.

And yet nobody ever asks what is it about white culture that encourages such crime. No, the blacks are unique in that their criminality somehow a product of their race.

Have a few more drinks, Galileo. It causes your genius to shine so brightly.

“Why is North Dakota’s incarceration rate a fraction of Alabama’s?”

One factor could be population density. Alabama is almost 10 times as densely populated as ND. It’s a lot harder to get into trouble when your nearst neighbor is 15 miles away. Fargo is just as white as Grafton, but Fargo’s crime rate is higher.

Another factor, you may want to look at the TYPE of poverty. A not insignificant proportion of the people living in “poverty” in ND are farmers and ranchers, whose income may place them below poverty level, but have significant assets in land, equipment and livestock. That may not be the case in AL.

“Why is Wynn Las Vegas (with rooms priced well above what the average cracler can afford) the scene of a melee on NBA All-Star weekend?”

Get a large enough crowd of drunk people away from home, and s@*t happens. The U had riots in the streets 2 or 3 years in a row after the men’s hockey team won the NCAA Championship. Madison has had problems with riots at halloween. Even Mankato has had student riots in the last few years. Last time I checked, each of those are predominantly white and middle to upper class.

Tomorrow night, my friends and I will be assembling at the Shout House for a Wagnerian rendition of “Winds of Change.” Our plan is not to drink beer. And not to smoke weed. But to start an illegal war.

If you’re white, please join us as we indulge in the white privilege of commiting that highest of crimes — illegal war.

I suggest we invade the sovereign nation of Prior Lake. I know a simple but effective single level counting system that should enable us to establish a beachhead in the black jack pit.

local television anchor women and attractive sex column blogging females take special note:

bud jr and his insipid, hate spewing posts illustrate very clearly why nearly all of the notorious serial killers in American History have been fucked up white dudes.

From John Wayne Gacy to Ted Bundy to George W. Bush to Jeffrey Dahmer…such a proud list of men who embody and embrace bud’s views.

Someday perhaps our ‘lil bud will grow up and make his own mark.

Just like his blood thirsty, depraved heroes.

And we can say, we knew him way back when…

But then again, notice how there’s never a shortage of rationale for the irrational. I attribute it to fear of the black man and an subconscious belief that if I feed the alligator, it will eat me last.

Bud jr said: Signed,

Journalism 101 Professor

What his parents do for work is not a story, dick cunt.

“actual; journalist”, eh?

Yet not a peep in the Strib about the perp’s background, family, school.

He just showed up with a gun a shot the guy in the head.

I guess that’s all we “need to know”, eh?

Unless it’s the Waseca farm killer, then we get chapter and verse on every aspect of his life…

Ain’t it curious?

Yeah, “actual journalist”.

Feh

“dick cunt”

Is that an actual journalistic term? Nice…

“Liberal weenie washed up and masturbatory actual journalist”.

That’s more like it.

I’m pretty sure most of the nazis were white.

Tomorrow night, my friends and I will be assembling at the Shout House for a Wagnerian rendition of “Winds of Change.” Our plan is not to drink beer. And not to smoke weed. But to start an illegal war

And my point is made. Its perfectly idiotic to blame crime by whites on their whiteness, but makes total sense to blame crimes by blacks on their blackness.

And you think you shouldn’t be pilloried as a racist in public? You think you’re reasonable, and shouldn’t simply be shouted down? Put the bottle down and back away from the crazy.

It’s just that violent crimes, carjackings, and streetcorner thuggery is the sort of crime that is available to the poor.

yeah, don’t you think black culture glamorizes that type of behavior? i was outside rudolph’s the other night and a group of somali teens got into a brawl, screaming “nigga i kill you!” (it was actually kind of funny. sad, but funny.) i don’t know….the glamorization of the gangsta culture is really fucking destructive.

Again, the point being that there is a very disturbing disparity in how the MEDIA cover these atrocities…

And yet, the last time I checked, the biggest consumer demographic of “gangsta culture” is white suburban males.

i’m not talking about who buys the most fubu jerseys, i’m talking about who is being raised in that culture.

Zactly.

yeah, don’t you think black culture glamorizes that type of behavior? i was outside rudolph’s the other night and a group of somali teens got into a brawl, screaming “nigga i kill you!” (it was actually kind of funny. sad, but funny.) i don’t know….the glamorization of the gangsta culture is really fucking destructive.

I don’t think there’s anything special or unique about what you’re talking about. Like whites don’t have Grand Theft Auto, 24, country murder ballads, cowboy movies, and a thousand other ways that glamorize violence. The Japanese have some of the most violent popular culture around. Having violent popular arts is not unique to blacks, and I’ve seen plenty of whites get into brawls and threaten to kill each other, and never hear you bunch of buffoons try to make the case that it was because they are white and their culture is somehow corrupt.

Why not? Soccer hooligans=european propensity for violence. God, the level of discourse and complexity of thought and analysis on here is positively cartoonish. I may as well go read the stall doors in any truckstop men’s room.

WHAT BULLSHIT.

I remember reading that billy ray useless thug shot him twice in the head.

This piece of shit should never see the light of day.

ranty, STFU. we have all been over why this case was different–victim complied, different neighborhood, all this ‘it only got publicity becuase he was white’ is getting so sickening.

What do you expect in north minneapolis where every 5th black kid is in a gang? of course they are gonna get shot, they are playing with death every day of their life. Not rocket science.
when inncocents die, black or white, they get more publicity. IE Tiesha Edwards.

GANG MEMBERS are not innocent, get that through your god damn skulls. In fact, if you are rolling in a gang, harming society on a daily basis, you don’t deserve that much publicity when you finally get shot.

It’s different when a robber shoots his victim, who complies, in front of witnesses, in a lower crime hood.

This kid, billy ray, had his chance at life, and fucked it up.
this verdict is sickening.

at least the truck stop bathroom grafitti won’t be italicized.

Soccer hooligans=european propensity for violence

i give a rat’s ass about europe….or soccer.

The Japanese have some of the most violent popular culture around

again, when i’m talking about culture, i don’t mean video games and sneakers. i mean absent fathers, dropping out of school, disrespecting authority, glamorizing/accepting general thuggery. all the shit don samuels talks about, but gets villified (?) for. ah well, we’ve been down this road before, aint nothing gonna change.

Max,
If you truly don’t think that there is anything wrong with the gangster culture, and how it is perpetuated proprtionately higher amongst urban black youths, you should probably take a nap. I mean, it is painfully obvious that there is an issue here.
money, bitches, guns, and irresponsibility.

Now I realize there are other ’subcultures’ that are equally destructive, (meth culture, etc)
but to ignore this particular one on the basis of ‘racial sensitivity’ is downright ignorant.

Sure, suburban kids but the FUBU jerseys, but who actually pulls the triggers?

Baker: Try breathing into a paper pag to stop the hyperventilating. Have you followed this thread at all? The dudgeon here, aside from the constant racism that underlies so many of these posters, derives from a PLEA BARGAIN, not a verdict. Some obsessively link the issue to race, despitea complete lack of a connection. The jury nullification in the OJ trial, that was a verdict that outraged people and it WAS race based. This is a plea bargain, the reason for which we still don’t have available to evaluate. But it was likely expedience and fear of losing, which would have been VERY bad politics for Mike Freeman.

When I covered the cops and courts a long time ago, the homicide detectives had a name for the sort of crime you’re talking about, a “misdemeanor homicide,” wherein someone who doesn’t matter to the taxpayers kills someone else who doesn’t matter to taxpayers.

Yeah, it’s hip-hop (CNN rendered the verdict last night: it’s poison) and liberals that are to blame for the ills of society.

a more informational article:
here

the prosecutor seems confused:

“It is clear that Johnson had the gun and pulled the trigger.”

In choosing to accept the plea, Freeman said his office balanced the potential of losing the case with the certainty of putting Johnson away for 30 years.

which is is dude?

And then the public defenders step in with their valuable input:

Scott Holdahl and Davi Axelson, both public defenders, represented Johnson. “He accepted responsibility for what has happened,” Holdahl said. “He obviously felt bad. He had some tears when he was putting in the plea.”

Aww, he had some tears. Poor guy.

I AM SO MAD RIGHT NOW, this is injustice in the worst way.

Italics fixed. Will you people please limit your html use to the bold and italics tools provided below the entry box? Please.

Again, my issue is with the way the Strib covers these cases.

And the knee jerk liberal attack dogs that come out whenever the legitimate questions are raised about the media protecting certain groups, especially when these certain groups have pathologically destructive “cultures”.

Don Samuels faces the same issues.

Thanks to the Strib’s careful, racist and protective editing, we know virtually NOTHING about Billy Ray, the cold blooded killer in our town.

Yet the white trash in Waseca who shotgunned a family, why, we get every single detail about him, along with quotes from classmates, employers, family and friends!

And no one on this forum, not even the “journalists (sic)” have addressed this point!

Thanks, Baker. I read Rochelle’s piece in the Strib. More informational than what? As you point out, the prosecutor doesn’t explain the plea to a very satisfying extent, or is at least not quoted. In a case like this, the expense of a trial or the smooth running of an overwhelmed CJ system is not the rationale for a plea bargain. Again, I ask, what were the evidentiary shortcomings that prevented taking a first degree murder case to trial? Still no answer. As for BudJr’s race obsessions, I don’t recal anybody’s race being mentioned in the coverage: perp, victim, cops, investigators, prosecutors, rochelle olson’s; nobody’s race was singled out because it is not relevant to the case.

kokonutz

Any more comments after the other article I cited? Wasn’t the case pretty open/shut?
The prsecutor seems to contradict himself, based on those few comments.

Listen, it’s not that urban black youths don’t matter to taxpayers, but if people are leading a destructive life, what do they expect?
When they go out to ‘get theirs’ they know they stand a chance of being shot.

Sure, it’s tragic to see kids dying, no matter what status and/or race they are, but a lot less depressing than the death of someone that who was actively trying to contribute to our society, like Zebuhr was. Wasn’t he studying to be a doctor?

Sometimes, responsibility is truly a deciding factor in life/death.

BudJr: Indulge me. Find a single reference to race, anyone’s, in the coversage of the Waseca murder. Knock yourself out. You won’t. Because it’s not relevant.

Again, why is the waseca shooter examined in detail, and not a peep about Billy Ray?

Could the Star Tribune be covering for someone or something?

Why the omission of ANY info?

You are blithely missing the point…again.

The Waseca case is bizarre, inexplicable, no apparent motive, committed in an isolated area, etc. A street mugging is not. Billy Ray wanted money and used force to get it from his victims. It’s boilerplate urban crime. The details that added to the narrative were the victim’s, visiting from out of town, etc. Billy Ray’s behavior as perp were nothing new, sadly.

But, again, where is the reference to anyone’s race in either story? You skip over my questions because the answer is inconvenient to your one-note thesis. Race is not mentioned in either story. Why? Again, say it with me, because it is not relevant in either story.

hell, the fact that he shot him twice in the forhead should have been enough for a 1st degree murder charge to stick.

Baker: You’re late to the discussion. My confusion all along is with why the prosecution copped a plea here. It would seem to this non-member of the bar that this was a clear case of 1st degree murder. Nothing in the Strib’s coverage of the resolution by plea accounts for it. Not in the quotes from the prosecution. When someone takes a plea, before the judge accepts it, the person waiving his right to a trial has to “allocute” as to the details of the crime to the satisfaction of the judge and to provide some closure to the victim’s family. This is likely when the tears of contrition referred to by the defense were shed. Presumably, Rochelle Olsen was there in court for that. But maybe not. She covers City Hall, not courts. Maybe she didn’t have time. Or maybe her editors didn’t give her enough inches to fully explicate what led to the plea bargain.

With ‘good behavior’, billy Ray could be out in 20 years. How is this even close to justice?

I assume that people who think black culture is about nothing but bitches and money are limited in their experience of black people to watching Yo! MTV Raps. Back in 1990. I love this discussion of gangsta culture — man, you’re really up to date with hip hop aren’t you?

max, hip-hop is not the culture I’m talking about.
I’m talking about gangster rap, which are two completely different things.
For someone up on hip-hop, this much should be obvious.

And yes, actually I am up on hip-hop. My ipod is full of it, but it ain’t ‘the hot boyz’, ‘or ‘jeezy’–it’s hip-hop that sends a positive message. The roots, blackalicous, the coup. That’s hip-hop.

Look, there is nothing wrong with admitting that possibly (partly) due to economic disparity, there is a segment of black gangster culture that is disgusting and harmful.
When kids are raised to think robbing, selling drugs, and hurting others is ok and acceptable, and even deserving of respect, there is most definitely something worng with that type of culture.
It really surprises me that that doesn’t stick with you.

Baker: With whom do you think you’re having an argument? Maybe I missed it, but just who has come out in support of the plea bargain? To my recollection, not a single poster. This thing has been dragooned well off point by budjr and his fellow paranoid racists. No progress has been made in figuring out why the plea was offered. The reason for its acceptance is obvious. Your outrage is duly noted.

I assume that people who think black culture is about nothing but bitches and money are limited in their experience of black people to watching Yo! MTV Raps. Back in 1990. I love this discussion of gangsta culture — man, you’re really up to date with hip hop aren’t you?

Are you taking your rhetorical cues from Lil’ Flip’s DJ, who admonished the crowd at Quest with the observation “that shit is 1980s” after someone was shot outside the club.

With all the murder ballads you mentioned, it’s surprising there isn’t similar gun play at We Fest.

Baker, save your breath. White liberals aren’t allowed to say anything derogatory about people of color lest they be labeled racists. We know what drives their intellectual dishonesty. Ask Don Samuels.

kokonutz,
you know more about the legal system than me, thanks for that info.
My argument was based on the fact that outrage is not ACROSS THE BOARD.

and the fact that some people even ignored the contents of this article, and used the tired old ‘it only matters because it happened in uptown to a white guy’, when it is obvious why it is such a different case than ‘gangbanger A kills gangbanger B’.
That type of crap disgusts me.

In other words, you like the mediocre hip-hop?

Brian, can we assume the “P” is for pissant?

i can’t live without my radio

“When kids are raised to think robbing, selling drugs, and hurting others is ok and acceptable, and even deserving of respect, there is most definitely something worng with that type of culture.”

Again, as has been pointed out, those are not unique to black culture.

As for why the plea may have been offered: juries are unpredictible. I would suspect that nay charge to the jury would have indcluded both 1st and 2nd degree murder. If the suspect is willing to cop to the 2nd, why take a risk on an unpredictible jury?

Baker: It is universally the case that people tend to care more about news that involves people with whom they can readily identify. Otherwise it has to be lurid and macabre. When a mugging happens in Uptown to middle class white people, the vast demographic of the Stribune, it captures the imaginations of those readers in a way that black on black violent crime (the vast majority) on the North side of Mpls does not. It is an ineluctible fact of social psychology. That said, it should neither infect the news judgment of ity Hall. I say, “should,” because, of course, ideals aside, it does.

Cos, you might be confused. I am not saying anything derogatory about people of color, I am referring to segments of said culture.
Huge difference.

hiphop has plenty of positive role models like KRS-ONE

gansta rap, not so much.

not that I’m entering into this asinine cultural debate, though, because it’s dumb. I just wanted to point out that hip hop is not about guns and hos, which baker already did. not that I agree with the last part of his comment, though.

I will mention that fiddy cent has a line of youth fiction about gang-bangin now, though. At least, I think it’s youth fiction because it’s written at a 4th grade reading level, only with more swearing and adult themes than a 4th grader should be reading.

Wayne, KRS-ONE positive?
I think he is a hack.

mnblrmkr
perhaps not unique, but certainly disproportionately supported.

And do you honestly think a jury would not have seen this case for what it really was?

If the suspect is willing to cop to the 2nd, why take a risk on an unpredictible jury?
Simply put, because this shitbag will be out of prison in 20 years, and Zebuhr’s family is forever ruined.

kokonutz,
I see your point, as I can more readily identify with a respectable member of society than I can with a gangbanger.

eh, if you listen to his music and ignore his loudmouthed attention-grabbing lately it’s still positive

Baker: “I see your point, as I can more readily identify with a respectable member of society than I can with a gangbanger.”

Be grateful that you so readily do. Just imagine if gangbanging were the prevailing ethos you had marinated in day in and day out from the time you were a little boy to adoelscence to manhood. Not a one of us got to choose our parents or our socio/geographic circumstances. It’s all an unearned gift. Maybe there are some bootstrappers among us who escaped abject poverty, social decay and rampant street crime. And if so, bravo.

But, to paraphrase Damon Runyon: “The race may not always be to the swift or the battle to strong; but that’s the way to bet.”

I assume that people who think black culture is about nothing but bitches and money…

WHAT?

YEAH!

bud jr hates black people

Be grateful that you so readily do. Just imagine if gangbanging were the prevailing ethos you had marinated in day in and day out from the time you were a little boy to adoelscence to manhood. Not a one of us got to choose our parents or our socio/geographic circumstances. It’s all an unearned gift. Maybe there are some bootstrappers among us who escaped abject poverty, social decay and rampant street crime. And if so, bravo.

And now my ‘gangster culture’ argument gets the spotlight.
thanks.

You are right, you don’t choose your socio/geographic circumstances, but you most certainly choose your behavior.

To say one absolutely determines the other is a cop out. There are plenty of people that have risen out of abject circumstances, many of those that haven’t, use their surroundings as a crutch to justify their behavior.

…just as there are many who were raised with every opportunity find themselves in a hopeless world of crime and drugs.

I cut gangbangers no slack–the ‘it’s hard out here bein’ a pimp’ crowd can take a fucking walk. Be a man, and get your shit together.

Maybe there are some bootstrappers among us who escaped abject poverty, social decay and rampant street crime. And if so, bravo.

conversely, those who haven’t, even though the current social circumstances in this country may make it very difficult to do so, get no free ‘mental pass’. You are what you make yourself, abject circumstances or not. Until refroms are made, it is an uphill battle. Meanwhile, I’ll fight to change policy to make it easier for these folk through my vote and voice.

You can’t afford five kids, don’t have unprotected sex. Can’t afford to have a felony on your record, don’t do the crime.

Realizing the importance of personal responsibility, combined with empathy and understanding–that’s the approach I wish more people took. Too many people, like Max, tend to think that poverty has to equal crime.

Oh, bullshit. Don’t go putting fucking words in my mouth, and go back and read the posts. All I said is that crime isn’t limited to the poor, but that the sorts of crimes poor people commit tend to be more visible.

But, hey, thanks for telling everybody what I think about poor people.

I always wonder, and have in past threads like this, if living in bad housing with lead paint exposure leads to criminal behavior?

I wonder if any sort of study has ever been done about the blood lead levels of juvenile offenders? Even if all the lead has been metabolized there would still be tell tale Zinc Protoporphyrin in their blood.

Wouldn’t it be ironic if it was actually the suburban slum lords that don’t maintain their properties that cause all the crime?

Funny you should ask, simpleton.

great, another excuse.

The excuses just keep comin’!

Is NOBODY the least bit curious about who Billy Ray is and where he came from?

Or are you willing to just toss him, unexamined, aside BECAUSE he is a black youth? Or because you KNOW the story will raise questions of personal responsibilty and cultural pathology?

Is the Strib obviously complicit in this?

How is a neurologic problem an excuse?

“And do you honestly think a jury would not have seen this case for what it really was?”

All it takes is one juror.

as for the rest, a prosecutor can rarely look a single case in isolation. It has to be looked at with respect to resources needed for other cases and needs of the office. A 30 year sentence with no trial might look pretty good to the CA, if it means the laywers and support staff can be moved on to other cases.

simpleton, msparber… i can’t even take you 2 seriously. have a good one.

Well, don’t let the door hit you etc, cubbie. We’ll miss your racist diatribes. But we can count on bud to fill in for you in a pinch.

It’s always such a pity not to be taken seriously by a fool.

I’ve met adults that have serious lead toxicity.
They have the mentality of a 10 yo with the impulse control to match.

It’s actually really sad. ):

i can’t even take you 2 seriously
don’t let the door hit you etc

*eats popcorn*

Is NOBODY the least bit curious about who Billy Ray is and where he came from?

Actually, I am interested in that story.

Yum! Popcorn!

This isn’t the first time I’ve seen you post, Max.
We got into this before, several months ago.

You tried then to dismiss that the ‘gangster culture’ was even partly responsible for crime, seemingly attributing the crime to poverty and lack of opportunity.
You seem to never comment on behavior, and responsibility, but instead heaping your entire opinion of urban crime on poverty. Poverty is an influencing factor, to be sure, but it’s about time you at least acknowlege the possible existence of external, culturally related factors.

Sparber, then write to the Strib and ask why they have ignored it.

Ask if they have a newsroom “policy” about which murderers they profile and which they “don’t”.

when you are rasied as a gangster, your dad and neighbors are gangsters, and the community you grew up in tolerated, and respected gangsters, their is a cultural influence there.

add in poverty, and you got a gangsta’s paradise.

hit it coolio.

Again, nonsense. I always maintain that people are responsible for their own behavior, and, if you do the crime, you should be prepared to do the crime. My case was, is, and will continue to be that there is nothing especially unique about African-American culture that makes it especially potent in creating crime, and that to racialize crime is inherently racist. It is the labeling of aspects of urban culture “black” that gets my goat, as we don’t point fingers at violent popular culture that stars white people and claim that it’s an example of white culture, and we don’t point fingers at that culture and claim it causes white crime.

I also argue that, whatever the cause of crime, there’s plenty of it going on everywhere, but that the sorts of crime that poor people commit tends to be more visible. And I argue there is nothing inherent black about these crimes, except that African-Americans are disproportionately poor, and therefore are disproportionately likely to do those crimes. Get a black person in high office, say, as Secretary of State, and she’ll start committing the sorts of crimes associated with rich and powerful people, such as lying to the American public to get them to support a hideously misconceived war.

Sure, gangsta culture might glamorize crime, but suggest it causes crime is absurd and indefensible, any more than video games caused Columbine or the Bible caused Waco.

bud jr, the offender was a juvenile, you tard. That’s not public info.

do crime, do time, rather.

Of course violent crime is more visible. It leaves blood stains on our streets. I’ll take white collar crime against me before getting shot in the face any day.

to ‘racialize crime’ is not inherantly racist, if there is a trend to be spotted within parts of the black culture, and I truly think there is. It may not be provable, but niether is alot of stuff we call common sense.

We don’t point fingers at meth-addiction, and label it as a predominately white, rural issue? Yes we do.

did you ever stop to think that perhaps the ‘gangster culture’ that you deny may actually contribute to poverty? That’s interesting.

You know, get rich fast, sell dope, drop out of school because “i can make more in a week than you can make all year…”

Your uncles tells/shows you this, your father tells/shows you this, a few years of this, you’ve got a youth who has felonies on his record, no education, and no hope for a decent job because of what his peers and neighbors perpetuated on him as he was growing up.
Whallah, another even furthur impovershed individual is created. Interesting, huh? maybe they both ‘feed’ on eachother?

Can you at least hint at the fact that I’m making sense to you?

So were the asshats in Chaska that killed the mom.

Non-starter.

He was tried as an adult.

Sure, gangsta culture might glamorize crime, but suggest it causes crime is absurd and indefensible, any more than video games caused Columbine or the Bible caused Waco.

But there is a big difference here.
Waco, single event.
Columbine and other school shootings, a few events, some attempted to link them to video games.

Black on black youth gang crime–a nationwide epidemic that is haunting our urban centers.

oh my fucking god, bud: are you the world’s biggest broken record or what? shut up already.

“I was listening to a public radio program a while ago with Mike Freeman and his StP counterpart. (I forget her name.) Among other things, they talked about how they basically only want to prosecute cases they can win.“

– - -

Thread’s too long already, but I can’t let this stand.

You’ve misunderstood something.

A prosecutor has a duty to prosecute cases which she believes she can prove beyond a reasonable doubt. A prosecutor has a duty NOT to prosecute cases which she does NOT believe she can prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

This is very different from what you implied. You implied that the County Attorneys Offices in Henn and Ramsey always play it safe, and thus they make bad, too-lenient deals. Not so. They try many cases that are tough to prove, that are certainly not sure winners. They get enough acquittals to make this clear. (The rule of thumb is, if you’re winning every case, you’re giving away some. They don’t and they aren’t.)

As I stated above, this was a good deal for the State. I listed lots of reasons why this was a good deal. And, consider: the vast majority of crim cases – 97%? – are resolved with pleas. If more cases went to trial, the entire system would become backlogged. We don’t have enough judges, courtrooms, prosecutors, or staff to handle more trials than are conducted now. You simply cannot try every case.

.

Bud,

Go play with yer dick cunt

Liberal nerves gettin’ frayed?

Kudos, Bobby, for being on topic. Enlighten me, what made 1st degree murder charges so tough to prove in this case? That’s what I’ve been asking to have explained from the get go. This isn’t some garden-variety felony. Gunning an unarmed person down in the street during the commission of a robbery is street crime at its most heinous. This was no drive-by, no misdemeanor homicide. So expediency argument, keeping the calendar clear for the really important cases doesn’t cut it. If THIS is not the sort of case for which you keep the calendar clear, I don’t know what is.

What’s the matter with you? Premeditation in ANY case is very difficult to prove so they opted for the plea. This is not the movies or TV, so get real.

Well, that clears up the “P” question raised earlier. Somewhere WAYYYYYY back in this thread, BrianP, it was made clear by TBartel (689.105 (3) causes the death of a human being with intent to effect the death of the person or another, while committing or attempting to commit burglary, aggravated robbery, kidnapping, arson in the first or second degree, a drive-by shooting, tampering with a witness in the first degree, escape from custody, or any felony violation of chapter 152 involving the unlawful sale of a controlled substance…)
that in the commission of a felony (armed robbery in this case), if you also intentionally kill someone you’re guilty of 1st degree murder.

Premeditation doesn’t enter into it, BP. In the course of robbing these people at gunpoint this guy also killed one of them, ipso facto, 1st degree murder. So, feet firmly planted in the real world, I continue to await an explanation for why the the county attorney felt the need to plead this out to a lesser crime.

BrianP, you must be new here.

For the Buds (and the rest of the wingnuts), things like Justice and The Free Market only exist in the pure, abstract form. Piddly details like evidence, getting a jury to convict, oligopolies, the benefit of keeping an underclass etc. don’t matter. Or if they do, it’s because ITS TEH FAULTZ OF TEH LIBERALZ.

Not so fast, Counselor. You still need intent to kill a person during the commission of one of the listed crimes. In other words, it’s not a straight felony-murder rule

Please stop using the death of my friend Mike just to rant and further spread the seeds of hate. If you must, take it somewhere else…it has no place next to the legacy of Michael.

I’ve mellowed during the day, I can accept Freeman et als decision I suppose. The Stribs terrible coverage of this and events like it are much more interesting to me.

I think its undeniable, the Strib plays point of view games depending on whos ox is being gored. At worst, they tell out-right falsehoods. They have a habit of sympathizing with the perp when its not warranted – sometimes its related to the protected race/class of the perp. The newspaper has a problem in that they print articles that dont paint a truthful picture, I think they take the word of the folks they interview too much.

Its apparently imcumbent on them to do a piece on all high profile perps at some point.

The guy that shot the mortgage broker was profiled by the world’s worst metro columnist and by a staff writer right around sentencing. Their pieces were not overly sympathetic, but they seem to wrestle with the idea the perp was ‘a good kid growing up’ and didnt display any obvious signs of criminality. I dont buy it. The reporters are either stupid or lazy enough to be misled by their interviewees or are complicit in a lie thats dictated by a politically correct stylebook  the same lie that turns the word riot into melee.

Waseca guy has already been profiled. Strib article on him comes off as naïve as well. He was ‘unremarkable’ and a fairly good kid. I dont buy it. Reporter is being misled by his interviewees here, the ones who actually have insight, and there is undoubtedly some pathology to be exposed in this guys upbringing. Bad reporting, worthless.

They have not yet written the overview of the Zebuhr killers. I imagine they will. My interest is piqued as much as anyones over this, Ive read all the stories in the last year. For sake of truth, we should expect to see an article detailing that these young people were raised in an environment of criminality&As evidenced by the fact that relatives were willing to help them burn the car, and that one of them was enabled to be on the lam for months while the police had no assistance in catching him.

That wont be printed though, that criminality wont be exposed. What well see is an article like those before. One that may not be overly sympathetic, with tales of head start cuts during the youths of the perps, but a story that fails to give us the real story here nonetheless  one that laments how these kids with bright futures could go bad.

With all due respect, Mr. Sullivan, it is probably more appropriate for you to steer clear of this forum and the discussion over the adjudication and sentencing of your friend’s killer. Your reasoning is akin to squelching critcism of the prosecution of the invasion of Iraq because it dishonors the ultimate sacrifices of the men and women who’ve died there. And you know who’d make that argument? Budjr.

My sincere condolences. But I don’t think questioning the prosecution’s decision to offer a lesser charge in exchange for your, Mike’s killer is beyond the pale for discussion in a free society. I can understand why you’d rather not participate. And I share your disgust at some of bigoted digressions. You’ve every right to your private grief and to ask that your friend’s case not be discussed in your presence. But that does not give you leave to come into this discussion and tell other people not to discuss it. Sorry.

i made my point.

There’s a difference between making a point and being right.

Listen, I don’t think we’re even arguing with each other here. I don’t deny that there is black on black crime, I don’t deny that African-Americans represent a large percentage of those incarcerated for violent crime, I don’t even deny that there is a celebration of thuggery in urban culture. I just refuse to go the additional step and suggest that there is something inherently racial about this, because there isn’t, because there are delightful people out there who will try and make that connection to justify their racist assumptions. If you go into a neighborhood where there aren’t as many black people, you’ll find the same crimes being committed, at the same rates, by whoever is lowest on the totem pole — in towns with a lot of Hispanics, they tend to be the criminal class. In New York during the 20s and 30s, Jews and Italians were the criminal class. And all of them celebrated their criminality in one form or another.

I also think saying, oh, blacks are criminals because they love gangsta culture, because they father babies out of wedlock, because they don’t want to get real jobs, etc., is just a rephrasing of classic racist stereotypes about blacks being lazy subhumans who won’t work, don’t have common sense, and love crime, and I have no patience for those stereotypes. And it doesn’t jibe with my experiences either. And those stereotypes serve a very effective function here for people who have no sense of civic responsibility — by racializing crime, you make blacks somehow exclusively responsible for addressing it, because the problem is not a universal problem, in that people of all races commit crimes, but is an African-American problem, because if they wasn’t fathering so many babies out of wedlock, listening to gangsta rap, dropping out of school, and celebrating the thug life, they wouldn’t be doing all that crime.

There’s nothing inherently racial about it, in the same way there is nothing inherently racial about the fact that an overwhelming number of serial killers are white men. There’s nothing about being white that makes someone a serial killer. But we make the coincidence of skin color, and the gangsta posturing of a small amount of urban culture, the most meaningful thing here, when, as I have repeatedly argued, the most meaningful thing is opportunity. Poor people commit poor people crimes, rich people commit rich people crimes. And I haven’t heard anyone argue the contrary, except to repeatedly screech that there MUST BE MEANING in the fact that so many CRIMINALS ARE BLACK. Yes, there is. Its a reminder that so many black people are poor, and, therefore, if they’re going to commit crimes, they’re going to commit poor people crimes.

i hear what you are saying Max.

>>>I just refuse to go the additional step and suggest that there is something inherently racial about this, because there isn’t,

So do I!!!
I have never suggested anything inherently racial. I stress inherently cultural–specifically urban impovershed culture. It is really quite difficult to articulate my point, I am trying to do the best I can.

>>>because if they wasn’t fathering so many babies out of wedlock, listening to gangsta rap, dropping out of school, and celebrating the thug life, they wouldn’t be doing all that crime.

But it’s just common sense! dropping out of school, celebrating thug life, and children being uncared for do result in more crime. scratch the listening to gangsta rap.

I agree that oppotunity is a very important factor in all of this. My point though is that ‘micro-cultural’ tendencies, and poverty, may perpetuate eachother.

>>>If you go into a neighborhood where there aren’t as many black people, you’ll find the same crimes being committed, at the same rates, by whoever is lowest on the totem pole

I agree, poverty is a very influencial factor. But the same destructive traits can been seen in the cultures of many different racial groups. We were just specifically talking about one here.

nice chatting with you.

Let me try once more:

What is ‘racial’ is the Star Tribune’s coverage of these events, and these perpetrators, who are committing ever more heinous crimes in our once great Midwestern town.

Get it?

The liberal BIAS of the MSM, in this case the pathetically transparent Strib, plays into the hand of liberal doctrine that insists on there being protected classes (and races) of people.

So what if innocents like Ziebuhr die at the hands of the progeny of those served by generations of liberal “social policies” (such as welfare), which have destroyed the black family, and thereby mutated it’s “culture” into today’s ghastly pathologies?

It’s a small price to pay for creating and sustaining that good ol’ reliable voting bloc of po’ disenfranchised folks!

And that’s why we will never see any in-depth factual analysis or coverage of disgusting perps like Billy Ray Deshawn Dirtbag.

So, spare me your shoutdowns and accusations of ‘racism’ which is a societal condition, and not a personal trait.

“Bigot” is the personal descriptive you are seeking in your puny twisted liberal mind, but again, that would describe someone who judges another negatively based solely on their race.

And I can assure you, my friend, that that is not the case with myself.

Giuilani in 08!

Yo, budjr, you might wanna’ give matters linguistic a wider berth, re: “spare me your shoutdowns and accusations of ‘racism’ which is a societal condition, and not a personal trait.” You’re half right, which, for you, aint’ bad. But, don’t leave your views out of the definition:

racist: adjective
1. based on racial intolerance; “racist remarks”
2. discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion

noun
1. a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others

WordNet® 2.1, © 2005 Princeton University

Bigot, though, a broader adjective, works in your case, too.

big·ot /ÈbjgYt/ Pronunciation Key – Show Spelled Pronunciation[big-uht] Pronunciation Key – Show IPA Pronunciation
noun a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

Edified? Fab’.

“Kudos, Bobby, for being on topic. Enlighten me, what made 1st degree murder charges so tough to prove in this case? “

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It’s not that there’s anything intrinsically hard to prove about 1st-degree in particular – it’s the uncertainty of taking ANY charge to a jury.

You get to drag the family and witnesses through it all again and keep the pain fresh for many more months, you devote a ton of City Attorney Office and cop resources to it when you need them in 2000 other places simultaneously, you spend and spend and . . . and then, sometimes, someone makes a stupid statement on the stand, or a judge doesn’t like one of the cop’s attitudes and so your evidentiary rulings start to become . . . novel and interesting . . or a few jurors are all hyped about social issues and allow that hype to convince them to believe . . . novel and interesting theories about what REALLY happened (geez, can you see the 9/11 conspiracy buffs in there testifying that he was killed because he was working on that project?) and so you get a hung jury or an acquittal.

This deal is for sure. It’s done. There’s NO danger of the scuz walking free, unlike the danger inherent in trials. Plus, if you know the sentencing guidelines, you know that they usually set out a range of time, and the range can be fairly wide, and the ranges can overlap, and, in this case, the deal was for a sentence at the top of the range for 2nd. So, this in no way is a lenient deal.

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Well, Bobby, following your rather cautious reasoning, just when would a trial ever occur under your tenure as county attorney? We’re talking a crime in which a defenseless man was gunned down in the street before his relatives like a dog. THEY might find a trial cathartic, not painful. What are you saving the resources of the police and county attorney for, jay walking?

Cathart this, you dink.

So, budminor, you are cool with the 2nd degree murder plea. YOU, Mr. Law and Order, don’t think the victim’s family and friends deserve to see his killer stand trial for the actual crime he committed, first degree murder, rather than the time and resource-saving 2nd degree murder. That wouldn’t be cathartic?

I thought you had your thong in a knot about this very disconnect at the top of this thread. You catch a case of misology over the weekend? Right, like reason has ever been one of your stronger faculties.

Or is this just a function of your linguistic inadequacy? That’s more likely it. “Catharsis,” oooooooooo, three syllables. Tell you what, budminor, get yourself a dictionary, or, try http://www.dictionary.com, and improve yourself. It’s not everyone else’s job to get dumber.

“Well, Bobby, following your rather cautious reasoning, just when would a trial ever occur under your tenure as county attorney? We’re talking a crime in which a defenseless man was gunned down in the street before his relatives like a dog. THEY might find a trial cathartic, not painful. What are you saving the resources of the police and county attorney for, jay walking?“

– - -

A major, expensive, painful trial would occur under my tenure when the defendant wouldn’t plead guilty to a charge only slightly less serious than the charge for which I was going to try him – and, when the agreed-upon sentence was close to a sentence he might get imposed if he was found guilty.

And, yeah, the family MIGHT have found a trial cathartic. Given that this deal was run past the family before it was made, though, it’s more likely that they approved it, and, like most people, decided that the prospect of reliving that night in front of a jury, and then being picked apart by a defense lawyer in cross, was something less than appealing.

And, I guess I’d be saving the resources of the police and county attorney’s office (which might be consumed in a weeks-long trial) for work on 500 or 1000 other criminal cases.

.

“Like most people”? Wait a minute there, Bobby Boy, when someone argues to you that there is a concensus among scientists who study climate, you tell ‘em their argument is without merit. Don’t waste YOUR time with citing concensus among people vastly more learned than you.

But when it suits your facile position on a subject, you presume to speak for “most people.” Get thee to a logic 101 class. You could just audit.

Take a deep breath and see if you can cobble something together more cogent than : “f— you, kokonutz.”

“But when it suits your facile position on a subject, you presume to speak for “most people.” Get thee to a logic 101 class. You could just audit.

Take a deep breath and see if you can cobble something together more cogent than : “f— you, kokonutz.”"

– - -

Yeah, that was overbroad and ill-supported. I should have said:

“Like the vast majority of crime victims and relatives of victims and witnesses with whom I’ve dealt while working as a lawyer in the crim justice area – numbering in the hundreds – on both sides of the fence, the prospect of going into court and reliving the experience to a jury while being picked apart, denigrated, ridiculed, and basically called a stupid, biased liar by one side or the other is less than appealing.”

Not facile at all, LJ, merely written without citation to direct authority. Sometimes we know things through experience, and forget that others don’t have that experience and so don’t have foundation to support the conclusion we’ve drawn. We just have to remember to explain things slower sometimes.

And, LJ, I’ve yet to encounter here that person “vastly more learned” than I of whom you speak. Smarter, maybe, but that’s not the word you chose, and I assume your word choices have some basis. If my response to the statement that “all major climate scientists in the world believe X” was, in your mind, facile, then I remain comfortable in that judgment.

.

I don’t think I like this coconuts woman.

Uh, let me make myself clear:

Fry the bastard.

I hope you’re not billing someone for this time.

Bobby, look up “facile.” superficial: proposed a facile solution to a complex problem. Readily manifested, together with an aura of insincerity and lack of depth: a facile slogan devised by politicians.”

I say, old bean, did “we” catch a matinee of “The Queen” before tapping this one out? What’s with the royal, “we” all of a sudden? ” Or do you have multiple personalities? If so, let’s meet ‘em.

“We just have to remember to explain things slower sometimes.”

Not slower, Bobby. I don’t care how many WPM you can manage. How about just, at all. I think it’s safe to assume that everyone on this forum has “experience.” One hopes, to borrow your purple syntax, that it is deept and wide-ranging experience. The wisdom of the mob, and all that rot. But it is still subjective and limited.

Anyway, yes, counselor, I’ll take the concensus opinions of the world’s leading climatologists over some lawyer practicing in the “crim justice area” when the question before us is the validity of global warming theory. On that subject, I feel safe in stating categorically that, yup, they’re vastly more learned on this complex problem than you are, or Dick Cheney or our imbecile president.

But, hey, if I get a DUI, you’ll be the guy I call, not a climatologist. What’s your hourly?

But not you, barrister: “If it please the court, your honor, most people…” Cue the gavel. You’ve tried a lot of 1st degree murder cases, have you? I’ve covered a few. Every single one, a guilty verdict.

If you’ve got foundation, and as a lawyer you’d understand that concept from first year, don’t hide it under your copy of Black’s. It’s a term that kinda’ explains itself. But, anyway, if you’ve got it, yes, do include it next time, old boy. What am I, The Amazing Kreskin (OK, not a mind reader but a “mentalist”)? Don’t just blurt out these ridiculous categoricals, “most people,” as though they carry any weight on their own. Especially when you decry others for citing widely reported concensus among credible experts as a bulwark against you’re, “nuh, uh, is not” style of forensics. I can get get that level of discourse on talk radio.

“I can get get that level of discourse on talk radio.“

– - -

What a coincidence. I read your comment, and now I feel like I just sat through a few hours of talk radio. (I thought we were speaking about criminal trials here, not GW. I missed something . . . .?)

(BTW – the state announced this morning that the current total for defense fees – just defense fees alone – for Alfonso Rodiguez stands at about $995,000. That’s what I meant about taking a case to trial being expensive.)
.

Money well spent. Seems odd you’ve chosen to practice, er, “work” in the “crim justice area” given your decided lack of brio when it comes to going to trial.

Yes, you did miss something, the entire point. I was addressing your double standard when it comes to what passes for foundation when making an argument and its reductive influence on discourse.

As for the Rodriguez case, I’ve met the victim’s parents and step-parent on more than one occasion and I can tell you that they would’ve preferred it if more money and time had been spent by the criminal justice system on Mr. Rodriguez before he snatched their daughter from a shopping mall parking lot.

Sure, plead out the car thefts and the petty drug busts. But our more heinous crimes deserve full-length adjudication if the evidence supports it. I’m STILL waiting for somebody, a JD holder perhaps, to tell me where the evidence was lacking for a first degree murder conviction here.