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Breaking Down The Blockbuster Trade With Memphis

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Let's start this with the big fat cavaet that I rarely watch, and am certainly not very well versed about, college basketball. And since two of the key principals in the eight-player swap that the Timberwolves and Grizzlies pulled off in the middle of the night Thursday/Friday are high-caliber college players, I am working with hearsay and inferences rather than my own eyes about how good or appropriate Kevin Love and OJ Mayo will be while plying their now-lucrative trade for their new NBA teams. Maybe when I get a gander at Love and Mayo in action, I'll have a totally different take. For that matter, maybe my college ignorance is why I seem to be among the minority (and in agreement with ESPN's Chad Ford, which may be worse) in thinking it is a good trade for Minnesota. So be it. You can only go with what you think you know. I'm not trying to hedge, I'm just honestly laying out the context.

First of all, the question isn't whether the Timberwolves helped themselves last night--compare the pre-draft and post-draft rosters and try to tell me they didn't significantly upgrade--but whether they helped themselves as much as they could. My answer is no, they didn't, but that's because they idiotically punted the 34th pick for no discernible reason other than to be pennywise, and we all know the second half of that course of action.

Let's cut to the chase. Here are the reasons I really like the Memphis deal.

1) Mike Miller, who is one of the more underrated players in this league.

Well, maybe not underrated so much as unknown despite his gaudy accomplishments. If you put out the trivia question: "Which NBA player has been named both Rookie of the Year (in 2000-01) and 6th Man of the Year (2005-06) during his career?" how many guesses would it take before folks came up with Miller? Having turned 28 in February, the guy is in his prime, yet sports the kind of game that isn't likely to fall off a cliff once he moves past 30. Last season was arguably the best of his career. He sank over half his shots (50.2%), which is made more impressive by the fact that over 40% of them were treys (359 three pointers, out of 824 total FGA), of which he converted 43.2%. Those are career-best numbers but not a huge aberration, as Miller is a career 40.3% shooter from behind the arc after nine NBA seasons. He also led the Grizz in rebounds last year, averaging 6.7 per game, and doled out 3.4 assists. He's 6-8--a legitimate 3 and a matchup problem for opponents at the 2. He is a floor-spacer par excellence, making it very difficult for teams to double down on Al Jefferson in the low block without getting singed from outside.

2) Having a plan and sticking to it.

The most glaring need for the Wolves coming into the draft was gaining size, and picking up personnel that would banish the absurd smallball that had Jefferson at center and Ryan Gomes at power forward many times during the season. Taking OJ Mayo with the third overall pick meant that for the fourth straight year the Wolves were drafting a backcourt swingman (McCants/Foye/Brewer/Mayo). When the team thought Mayo was indeed their pick, I heard Fred Hoiberg tell the Draft Party audience that they could always address the need for a big in free agency. Ah, but when you look at the free agent list, it's slim pickin's indeed--the best of the lot are probably Kurt Thomas and Dasagna Diop, both less-than-perfect fits (to put it mildly) who will command inflated salaries on the free market. So, that meant paying through the nose or putting up with another year of Mark Madsen and Chris Richard when you didn't want to play smallball.

Now you've got Jason Collins, who has fallen off a bit but is still a better complement to Jefferson in the pivot than anyone else previously on the roster. He's a legit seven-footer who doesn't need touches on offense and knows his meal ticket is rugged defense. You've got Collins for one year and then his $6.2 million comes off the books and you might have to look for another backup center before you can bring over the hot second round pick Nikola Pekovic, who most agree can be a player in the pivot once his rich deal with a team in Greece expires in two years.

But more importantly, if you're Kevin McHale, you have eliminated excuses, introduced more direct accountability, and gone out and acquired the person you unequivocally state is "the best big man in the draft." Kevin Love is just a shade under 6-10, has a wide body, is reputed to be a tenacious rebounder, and was named the Player of the Year in the PAC-10 as a freshman, a league that also contained OJ Mayo, Brook Lopez and Russell Westbrook. Many think he is too small to succeed in the NBA paint: McHale is not one of them. The Wolves front office get feisty in pointing out that his combine numbers for size and athleticism compare with Atlanta center Al Horford. They think Jefferson and Love are a legit 4/5, or 5/4, depending on the matchups. I don't know if they're right, but I do strongly suspect that Jefferson/Love will play bigger than Jefferson/Gomes, with the 7-footer Collins available to change the mix. More to the point, you don't have a paucity of big men that enable you to trot out a 3-guard offense as the other side of frontcourt smallball and pretend that's what you really wanted to do. If you're McHale, you drafted Randy Foye stating that he can be a combo guard with a primary emphasis on the point, and OJ Mayo is not around to gum up and otherwise complicate that evaluation. The Wolves needed size and they got a better backup than they had last year and the person they believe is the best big man to come out of college this year. If they're wrong, it will be very easy to notice.

3) Boil down the legacy and it's a 2-for-1 swap

Thank god for salary cap junkies who keep us all honest, and for closet GM types always figuring the roster angles. They will have a field day with this 8-player (count 'em, eight!) deal and all its salary implications and ability to maneuver or not. Well, having watched this Wolves squad for the past four non-playoff seasons, I am well aware of what Marko Jaric, Antoine Walker and Greg Buckner bring to the table. Jaric has been reviled for what he got--a ridiculous contract that will pay him more than $7 million a year through 2010-11--and what he was not--he was not a good complement for Kevin Garnett, not good in the clutch, not capable of making anyone forget he cost not only Sam Cassell but a precious first round pick that has led to tanking by the franchise in order to keep it. Marko can be a spasmodically effective player in a "do all the little things mode." That's not the definition of a $7 million man, however. Walker would have been bought out last year if he hadn't greedily wanted more than he was worth to go away. And Buckner spent more time in street clothes than a uniform.

Minnesota is not exempt in this deal from taking on the Grizzlies' mistakes. Foremost among them is Brian Cardinal, who will make $6.5 million a year through 2009-10 and is less effective than Jaric. And Collins we've already discussed--overpaid at more than $6 million. So there you have it. The players who are truly coveted in this exchange, the ones whose talent really matters and will thus determine the legacy of the deal, amounts to OJ Mayo for Memphis and Mike Miller and Kevin Love for the Wolves. And that's what will have to be determined: Is OJ Mayo ultimately worth more or less than Love and Miller?

Those are the three reasons why I currently endorse the trade. But do I perceive there to be any downsides to the deal? Yeah, some potentially serious downsides. This is by no means a slam-dunk bonanza. Here are my primary concerns.

1) No defense and lots of turnovers

The Wolves brass seem convinced that Love and Jefferson on the front line is perfectly sufficient--no, even better, part of the new vogue--for the long term future of the franchise. But almost all the raving I've heard about Love is about his passing, his midrange and long range shooting, his savvy box-outs--not a lot about his defense. On top of that, there are some questions about his physicality in the paint. Now I know Jefferson's game, and his offense is light years ahead of his defense. So going with a pair of legit power forwards who don't excel at D sounds like a recipe for disaster in the paint against large lineups. True, large lineups don't happen even a majority of the time anymore, but, funny, the really good teams seem to be able to defend them, mostly by having one themselves. Not to put too fine a point on it: Minnesota's interior defense could be in trouble if Jefferson and Love are your frontcourt. Maybe it will be better than Jefferson-Gomes, simply because Love is larger, but let's not forget that Gomes is pretty big (250 pounds) and smart too.

What's more, you no longer have Mayo in the backcourt and by most accounts, Mayo can be very good with perimeter defense. Stopping penetration was one of the team's biggest bugaboos last year, and Mike Miller doesn't seem like the answer. In fact a quintet of Jefferson-Love-Gomes-Miller-Foye, as marvelous as it might be on offense, sounds like a disaster on D. The Wolves would win and lose a lot of game by scores like 115-111, and that's not the way to build a winning culture in the NBA.

The silver lining in this, perhaps, anyway, is that the NBA showed us this year that defense is more than ever (in this time of zones are okay and hand-checking isn't) about time synergy more than individual prowess. The Celtics only had two good/great individual defenders in its starting lineup--KG and Rondo--yet played masterfully together, rotating and fluctuating as if everyone was on a string. By contrast, the Nuggets had two defensive studs among its five starters--Marcus Camby and Anthony Carter--and played wretched, dreadful, pathetic team defense. The lesson is emphasis and motivation. Do I think current coach Randy Wittman can emphasize and motivate a subpar defensive team to be appreciably better than their individual collective talents? No, not really, which is why this is a concern.

The other concern with the new Wolves roster is turnovers. For all of Miller's strengths, he turns the ball over more 2.6 times per game, which is plentiful. As a rookie, even a precocious one, Love is going to make mistakes that lead to turnovers. Most importantly, Randy Foye is going to have to be your floor general and steady ballhandler. In addition to being a porous defender last season, Foye was hardly Mr. Steady with the handle. In fact I'd say Bassy Telfair is a large beneficiary of this trade, even as Corey Brewer seems penalized by it.

2) That Mayo is a Superstar about to happen

On draft night a few years back, everyone was wondering whether Detroit should have taken Carmelo Anthony instead of Darko. Turns out the real choice was Dwyane Wade after LeBron. It happens every year: Some people thought Marcus Williams deserved to go over Chris Paul and Deron Williams and some thought it idiotic. And there was Foye/Roy. Now we've got two guys who are consensus stars in Rose and Beasley, and divided opinion on OJ Mayo. Some see him as star who belongs in the conversation with Rose and Beasley, much as Wade did with LeBron and Melo. If those people are right, then this will obviously be a horrible trade for Minnesota. There are some things that could make it much less horrible--the emergence of Randy Foye into a star himself, making Mayo's stardom redundant to the position; or the overachievement of Kevin Love from very solid pro to Chris Bosh-like invaluability. As I said before, the legacy boils down to Love/Miller for Mayo. And if Mayo is the dominant star who leads his team beyond expectation, bad deal for Minnesota.

I'll tell you what I'm not concerned about. I'm not concerned about Mike Miller retarding the development of Corey Brewer and inflating the Wolves to mediocrity so it can't seize any more stud draft picks. If Brewer develops, he'll earn minutes--the Wolves desperately a quality defender in their rotation--and the idea that Miller is going to come and go before he can be really important to the franchise underestimates his shelf life value.

Last but not least, I want to reiterate how dumb it was for Minnesota to fritter away its second second-rounder at #34. I like the blockbuster Memphis trade (with the college cavaet unfortunately attached) and the first second rounder, who seems to be a mixture of draft luck and solid scouting. But this seems like it was a pretty deep draft--at least that's what the Wolves braintrust itself was telling everyone to get its flock excited about the second rounders. And this did seem to be a draft where there was more-than-usual disagreement about who did and didn't have first-round potential, meaning that some players regarded by smart, diligent scouts as first-rounders were still there at #34. For the Wolves to let Miami simply take it from them for two future second-rounders and cash feels like a lack of resolve to improve as rapidly as possible and bear relatively small cost for trying.

More than that, it was stupid public relations. As one of the commenters to his site, Andy G, mentioned last night, there is going to be at least one or two players picked at or beyond #34 that will pan out in this league, opening the Wolves up to the same kind of scorn they received for Josh Howard.

Worst of all, it may be the pick they handed over to Miami that is the specific example. The Heat chose Mario Chalmers, who the rep of being a steadying influence, a selfless point guard who enabled his more talented teammates at Kansas and then hit the big shot when it mattered to send the championship game into overtime. In other words, Chalmers is calm, seasoned and without a lot of ego. Now he is going to a team that has a pretty dire situation at the point, meaning that Chalmers might be able to work his way into getting quality minutes with a starting unit that includes Wade, Beasley and Shawn Marion. There's potential for 8-10 assists per game right there, and if Chalmers gets them as a rookie, he's going to have a very high profile. For all I know, this will be a laughable scenario when we look back on it a year from now. But if so, the Wolves will have dodged a bullet--and one fired from a gun they handed over to their critics.

175 Reader Comments

Cheezy B (not verified)07:32am
Jun 27
I couldn't agree more about Chalmers, Why give him away? I'm still recovering from my initial shock. I went to bed with dreams of my new logo OJ (Juice, we coulda had a guy nicknamed Juice) Mayo jersey. I wake up to white boy bonanza. Mayo was a really exciting player, Love is going to take a lot of warming up to. He seems like an ok guy in interviews but he has none of the flash of Mayo. I've always liked Mike Miller, he needs a fucking haircut but he is a solid player. I asked it last night I'll ask it again, who gets resigned? With what we got I think: Smith: No (Love makes him redundant) Snyder: Nope (Miller) Bassy: Yes (backup point, still young) Richard: Yes (tough one to pick) Gomes: Yes (gives a lot of lineup options) Doleac: No (ha ha yeah right)
Colin Blair (not verified)08:11am
Jun 27
Well as a Celtics fan watching my pups over here, I thought it was a steal for the TWs. I should note that most of the Celtics fan base didn't like the 2 deals Ainge made when they first made them. The most critical issue here is that you got a very good player who in the prime of his career. As for Mayo/Love. Who knows? Maybe Love is the one that shines. Of what I saw of Mayo, he's no Derrick Rose. The draft's a crap shoot. You forgot to add that Miller is an excellent passer though you did list his assist stats. The funny thing about this trade is that Gomes, Love, and Miller are all very good passers and better passers than your starting PG. Passing is a very underrated skill. All during the year, when the Celtics' offense bogged down, it was because they stopped passing the ball. The Wolves backcourt unfortunately doesn't know how to spell pass (excluding Telfair). At least 3 players will know how to make an entry pass to AJ. Maybe Al will become a better passer too with the floor spaced better. He should see less doubling down. As for the 2nd round trade, the TWs don't need more youth right now. Period, underline bold letters and larger font. As for the Money angle, I thought I had read the Wolves get rid of one big contract a year ahead of what they had.
rwblake (not verified)09:12am
Jun 27
Sorry, I cannot disagree more Robson. I usually agree with your assessments. This is a poor trade by all accounts for the Wolves. Love is a PF in the league and likely a career back up. When you have Jefferson as your PF you do not go and take another PF for the team. How many more years are we going to try experimenting with 6'9 guys at center? It has already been shown not to work. Another player is not going to change that fact in the NBA. The things we needed out of the draft were: 1) A true big man to complement Al. 2) A real PG to distribute the ball. 3) A legit scoring threat other than Al. We got none of the above out of the draft. Essentially, McHale and company just took a big dump in all of our living rooms saying this is what I think of the fans who have cheered this team since 1989. Lots of fans are complaining and their is valid reason to complain. People are saying they are not going to renew tickets, League pass or follow them this year. Rob
rwblake (not verified)09:22am
Jun 27
The issue with the Euro center is will he ever come? We all know they get paid more there. When was the last time a 2nd round Euro came to the US to play? Still thinking right? It is drafting on a possibility not an actuality. Its possible he may come, but not at all likely he ever will. Rob
Andy B (not verified)10:32am
Jun 27
He'll come. taking a flyer on European players in the second round is not unusual. The question is whether he will come as a Wolf or not. His rights are worth something in a trade and he may be just as easily used for that in the next few years.
Robby P (not verified)12:10pm
Jun 27
Defense wins championships. Using our highest draft pick in over a decade, the Wolves mangaged to add zero players who can contribute on the defensive end consistently and for a long time to come. I manage to watch a little college basketball throughout the year, and when the season ended my opinion of Kevin Love was: most overrated player on the most overrated team in college basketball. He is deficient athletically; I don't care what his combine numbers were, if you watched him play more than three times you know he benefited greatly from a team that played at an incredibly slow pace (and one that gave him post touches constantly) and he struggled against anything remotely resembling a player with NBA-type athleticism (see: Joey Dorsey, Shawn Taggert). He's completely and totally incapable of playing the three at the NBA level. He measured out to 6'9 or something. That's not an NBA center. So, logically, he's a true 4. Um, don't we have a twenty three year old PF who averaged 21 and 11 last year whose numbers probably would look more like 24 13 if he could have actually, you know, played power forward all year? Am I on crazy pills? Why is everyone trying to convince themselves this was a good trade? One thing that was mentioned in a Pioneer Press column that was glaringly obvious throughout the night was that there was a battle going on in the Wolves front office. Hoiberg wanted Mayo, McHale wanted Love. It's clear who won, and we continue to build a team without any discernible long term plan. Smashmouth basketball? Well let's take a 6-9 power forward who is going to have trouble guarding his man and getting around and holding off bigger more athletic players on the boards and who is going to make his living offensively 16 feet from the basket. Great. And yes I realize Mike Miller is a good, possibly very good player. But we know what he is. Hoiberg himself said that Mayo will probably end up being the best shooter from this draft. He's got the athleticism and size to become so much more (he's a straight shooting guard, he's nearly six-five) and even though he settled for jumpers too often at the college level, it's very likely he will end up being a good penetrator. Congratulations all, you've put the stamp of approval on another McHale nightmare that is going to haunt this franchise for years. As it is, this might be the straw that breaks my Wolves fandom back.
APB (not verified)02:19pm
Jun 27
All right, perhaps so. I disagree, but you certainly might prove to be correct. I really don't know. I liked Mayo and I liked Love. I would never go out on the limb for either and proclaim eventual stardom. However, I love the idea of trading from our glut of guards and adding PF and Centers. Jason Collins, Mike Miller, Brian Cardinal and Kevin Love for Antoine Walker, Marko Jaric, Greg Buckner and Ojay Mayo looks good top me considering our roster. I have laid out elsewhere how I think the rotation might play out with Love and Jefferson, so I won't repeat it. As far as making this out as some sort of battle between Hoiberg and McHale, well we all have imaginations and I suppose its possible, but it looks like to me Kevin Mchale has made another in a short list of recent trades that looks like it might lead to vindicating his reputation that has been so shattered from previous mistakes, lazy work habits and bad luck that people actually paint him as some sort of monster bullying Hoiberg and others in FO meetings. I don't buy it. He just made a smart trade from my perspective is all. But, I might be wrong. We'll find out. This is what makes being a fan exciting, not dividing up sides as between Hoiberg and McHale. Remember, McHale signed Hoiberg in the first place.
Cocorico (not verified)04:17am
Jun 28
I'll be brief since I just posted something similar at Canis Hoopus. I don't think we'll ever see Pekovic, and here's why. If I understand the NBA rookie scale (http://www.nbpa.com/cba_exhibits/exhibitB.php), a guy picked at 31 makes under $1mil/year for the first 3 years. He's getting more than double that with Panathinaikos (1.5mil. euros, i.e. well over $2mil). Unless he gets a serious case of the "I want to play against the best" mentality (and so far his only comment on the matter is this statement: "I don't like the NBA"), I just don't see him here - ever.
Cocorico (not verified)04:26am
Jun 28
Or, to put it a different way: "Hmmm, let's see, should I take $2 mil to be the man on a great team in one of the great cities of the world, or $1 mil to play for...um...where did you say the Timberwolves played?"
Cocorico (not verified)08:48am
Jun 28
my bad - have just learned that there is no salary scale for 2nd-rounders! in which case, forgive the hysterics...and let's hope McHale does indeed have a plan to get him here.
David Brauer (not verified)10:13am
Jun 27
Miller is a totally legit scoring threat. Not out of the draft, but he's a sure thing. There was no ideal C or PG in this draft, so I don't hold the Wolves down for not getting what wasn't there.
Jackson (not verified)01:43pm
Jun 27
In response to rwblake, I would have to disagree with your assessment. You state three things that the Wolves failed to get. 1) A true big man to complement Al. 2) A real PG to distribute the ball. 3) A legit scoring threat other than Al. 1. We got Collins who is a good basic defensive 7foot center. We also got the rights to a potentially great center in a year or two. We also got a 6'10" big guy, Love, who everyone agrees has some great skills and will help our size issues. I like Collins because he does not have to do much. Jefferson is the stud around there and Collins just has to pass a bit, rebound and play defense. He is very capable of that and should be starting for us this year. 2. We have some Foye who the FO is still high one, and Telfair, who is Really young and showed some promise last year so we'll see how that is. True, Telfair can't shoot, but Rondo showed that a PG who can't shoot is something you can work with. 3. A real scoring threat we got. Mike Miller is a real 3-point shooter. He will make the whole team better. Love is a smart, talented passer and with him in there facilitating he will be able to help Jefferson and Miller score even more. Plus with Foye driving to the basket we might have something. But overall, I think it was a good draft that addressed a lot of our needs. Sure it could have been better but I am happy. When you consider that we removed a lot of troublemakers and contract issues, plus we changed one second round pick into two second round picks, it seems good. One problem with this draft is that it somewhat was aimed at the future. We got two second round draft picks in the future. We have this hot center coming in the future. We have big contracts coming off the books sooner, in the future. So I can understand why it is a little unsatisfying in the present. But we did add players that will make us better this year. And if you look out a couple years, we took some big steps towards having a lot less problems and a lot more answers.
Ahhhhhh (not verified)05:28am
Jun 28
Love is not 6'10" for the 8-millionth time. He is slightly less than 6'9" with normal shoes on. This is exactly why he wore those platform shoes to the combine measurements, so people would mistakenly think he's taller than he really is.
KGdaBom (not verified)07:37pm
Jul 6
For the nine millionth time Love is 6'10" by NBA measurements where the norm is to measure in shoes and round up. He is just as much 6'10" as any other player in the NBA listed at 6'10".
KGdaBom (not verified)07:32pm
Jul 6
RW sure it would have been better if we got a stud center in the draft. Well guess what we just might have got him in Pekovic. We needed a stud PG in the draft. There were none available. Our next two biggest needs were size and skill in the frontcourt and Love has both of those in spades. Our next biggest need was good outside shooting and we got great outside shooting. Arguably the best shooter in the NBA. If you hate this deal you are just a hater.
David Brauer (not verified)10:11am
Jun 27
I'd feel better about Love's passing if he didn't have more turnovers than assists. Maybe that's unfair to expect out of a front-court player. The numbers were nearly even. (And BTW, so were Mayo's.)
Wolf in MO (not verified)07:35am
Jun 27
Britt - I was happy when the wolves drafted mayo, even though as you said, it was a redundancy four times over. I didn't watch the second round and was really excited to find out that MN had taken Mario Chalmers. Now here in the heart of Big Twelve country, it is well known that Mario was a VERY solid player on a very solid team. Could have been a star if he had decided to go somewhere else. My happiness was crushed when I saw that he had been traded to the Heat. Now I'm even more depressed to find out it's for future SECOND round picks! I am only bouyed by the fact that the Wolves pulled off this trade with Memphis and got Miller, Love and Collins. I am still not sold that Love is an NBA quality player, but a number of others on this post seem to think he will be a good compliment to Al. I like Collins for his big banging body and Miller for his dead-eye shooting. I am particularly pleased with the fact that we got rid of Walker & Jaric. They just did not fit, no matter which way we went for the future. Looking forward to reading SNP & Andy and all the rest here later.
drza44 (not verified)07:39am
Jun 27
Britt, my reaction to the trade is very similar to yours, with very similar caveats (i.e. relying more on what I've read than what I've seen to judge the college guys). I would not have wanted the Wolves to draft Love over Mayo directly because 1) Mayo was the consensus "talent", and the Wolves couldn't afford to miss picking against public opinion right now and 2) I don't believe a Love/Jefferson frontcourt is big/defensive enough to have legitimate championship aspirations. That said: I like the trade. For one thing, there is a very legitimate chance that Miller might be better than any of the rookies involved will ever be. For a second thing, even if he's not, he's enough value to bridge any perceived talent gap between Mayo and Love. And since Love fits a bigger team need than Mayo, when the talent gap is bridged the tie-breaker is team need, and Love fit that better. Plus, it appears to me that Mchale has (belatedly) decided to enroll in the Danny Ainge/Portland Trailblazers school of team building: acquire assets, then acquire more assets, then acquire more, and once a critical mass is reached try to parlay them into a better team. The Wolves entered last night with the #3, #31, and #34 picks in the draft and came out of the night with a legit lottery talented big man, a very good starter in Miller, a stash-overseas-possible-lottery-talent-in-2-years, a probable rotation-center in Collins, and two future #2 picks. That is a pretty good return on value for their picks, and despite the inherent risks in this approach (Mayo blows up, or Chalmers is legit) I can't hate the thought process that went into it (though I'd also have kept Chalmers). Finally, my favorite line-up from 2 years ago was the "KG + Kids" group because they were the only group on that team that played good team ball. I had talked myself into Mayo because of the talent aspect, but with the trade the Wolves now have the balance and team-oriented guys to revisit the KG + Kids cohesiveness with a somewhat similar talent level. I can imagine this team being fun to watch. Perhaps not championship caliber any time soon, but competitive. I think this was a step in the right direction.
Andy B (not verified)07:50am
Jun 27
Britt, I like how you broke down the trade as a 2 for 1 and I like Mike Miller as well. But, I think Jason Collins will also be an important part of this trade and getting him and Cardinal, for Walker, Buckner and Jaric is also a good trade in my opinion, for both Collins defensive center position and for the improvement of the locker room with Walker leaving. I also am impressed with Miller for his seemingly genuine enthusiasm for playing NBA ball. He just seems to enjoy himself so much out there. I have grave concerns about the frontcourt combinations of Jefferson and Love that I have stated before, but, as I said yesterday, my wish list was for a 7 footer and we got one in Collins that should stretch us to the Pekovic era beginning two years from now. It may seem crazy, but S&P called it beginning a fgew months ago. McHale is rebuilding the Celtics starting lineup of his playing days era. I see a starting frontline of Love, Jefferson and Collins to recreate Bird, McHale, and Parrish. Everyone can see the follies of the comparision especially the Love/Bird one. However, Love is described as a "smart" player, good shooter and passer. Plus, Bird was never known as a great individual defender but he played good team defense. There are possibilities. Also, if Love is getting burned by quicker small forwards, there are Gomes, Brewer and Miller waiting on the bench and if teams really want to go small ball on us, you can move Love to 4 and play Jefferson at the 5, when they can match up with smaller opposing 4 and 5's. The 34th pick does seem bad, but I doubt it will haunt us. I believe some of the reason for this apparent deep draft is the increasing analysis on blogs and the attention college ball gets when compared to high schoolers, because of the extra exposure freshmen get in the NCAA over seniors in High School. These players have all been overanalyzed. In other words, the draft is not as deep as it appears. The 34 pick is still the 34th pick and the chances of those picks being stars is very small indeed. I would have liked CDR, but I suspect Mchale was just looking at his roster for next year and wondering where he would put that poxt year and wondering where he would put that pick. 1. Jefferson 2. Foye 3. McCants 4. Brewer 5. Miller 6. Collins 7. Cardinal 8. Love 9. Madsen resigns 10. Gomes 11. Telfair 12. Richards 13. Smith? 14. Snyder? It was the 34th pick and the way McHale described how everyone wanted their 31 pick this year, he is probably hoping to get another 31 pick from Miami in the future to trade for additional assets. I doubt Beasley and Marion stay with Miami and I think they are rebuilding next year and should be lottery bound next year as well. I think the trade has a chance to work out in our favor and I don't think the draft this year was as deep as everyone believes. But, we'll see.
Andy B (not verified)07:53am
Jun 27
Doesn't a trade sending Mayo to Miami and Beasley to Memphis seem obvious right now. It might be a three way with LA or Detoit involving Marion and other players, but I have to think Mephis has Beasley in mind when making the trade for Mayo, knowing Riley covets him.
stop-n-pop (not verified)10:18am
Jun 27
I'm waiting for Portland to swoop on in somewhere in all of this.
Andy G (not verified)08:18am
Jun 27
Good breakdown of the opposite viewpoint. Love will be fun to watch--I just hope that he's not our center. There's a lot of time between now and Game 1, though, so I'd guess this will be discussed plenty. One thing about Love + Pekovic, though, is that by all accounts last night on ESPN, Pekovic is a legit center, and will be a starter in the NBA. If that's true and he comes over here in a year or two, Love will have to play the 3, or come off the bench. If he succeeds at the 3, great--if not, we traded OJ for a reserve player. Who knows.
pagingstanleyroberts (not verified)09:33am
Jun 27
On the flip side, championship teams win by having bench players who would start on some teams. There aren't a lot of teams who have more than two (or even more than 1) talented big men, and having them could be a big advantage. Part of the reason San Antonio has won titles is because of that versatility. Also, a lot of great players have come off the bench for title teams: Mehmet Okur for Detroit, Manu Ginobili for SA, McHale and Bill Walton for the Celtics, etc. It's not a big deal if Love is good enough to start but doesn't because someone just as good or better is the starter.
Twins Geek (not verified)08:25am
Jun 27
Thanks for talking me off the ledge Britt. I'll add two gripes: 1. If Miller is who we think he is, this trade makes sense in the short term, but I'm not sure it makes sense long term. Is Miller going to get us closer to a championship in 2012? Isn't that the goal? 2. That 34th pick trade was like a kick in the gut. If you're rebuidling a team, and are looking for a point guard, you can't make that trade. And you ESPECIALLY can't make that trade with Miami, who is also rebuilding, also needs a point guard, and whose first round pick YOU OWN. Who signs off on that deal over there? Can't someone - Hoiberg, Stack, McHale, the guy who replaces the urinal cakes - SOMEONE say out loud that maybe this isn't the greatest idea? How does this get through so many people?
David Brauer (not verified)10:20am
Jun 27
On point #1: The Wolves are so freaking young now that it's good to have an older player in his prime. We're in the pole position to re-sign Miller when he's 30, and a great 3-pt guy is certainly a vital part of a championship team. On point #2: I'm a bit perplexed by the flesh-rending on the #2 pick. The Wolves still have a buttload of players (the wave is cresting, but we're still oversupplied). Next year, this won't be a problem. Again, we're a freaking young club - I don't see anything wrong with pushing the pick out a year or two, when roster space is freed and evaluations of the rest of the whelps are further along. Plus gaining a pick to kvetch about a year after that. No one knows how deep the future drafts will be, but generally speaking, two bites of a second-round apple are better than one, even with the fourth pick in this year's 2nd round.
KGdaBom (not verified)07:10pm
Jul 6
You are the first person to make a strong argument against the Chalmers deal IMO. If we lose one to five spots on that first round pick because Chalmers helps Miami win a couple games that could have large implications. Another factor is the PR factor. We got two million in the deal but if we lose ticket sales because of the perception on the move their goes the two million.
eric@ (not verified)09:32am
Jun 27
A good trade for all the right reasons, a bad trade for all the wrong reasons. In a perfect world, this is a very good trade for the Wolves. They improved their contracts, improved their roster balance, got a very good NBA player, and got the player in the draft that a lot of the basketball people (as opposed to the fans and hype feeders) thought was the better prospect. Celebrity <> Ability. I really like Mayo, especially his drive to succeed, but he's famous for being OJ Mayo, not for his actual on-court play. Love was better than him last year on the court and tested out athletically at his position better than Mayo did at his. Unfortunately, this isn't a perfect world. The Wolves needed the publicity and celebrity of Mayo as much as they needed more talent on the court. Mayo would have put them back on the map, back on national TV, and appeased the fans as the popular pick. And sadly, in the NBA, Celebrity >= Ability. In a league's whose credibility is rightly placed somewhere between pro wrestling and boxing, being famous makes you better. I confess I'm proud of the Wolves for making the deal, even if I think they were foolish for not cashing in on the Mayo star power. Let's all hope the continuous, public embarrassment over the NBA officiating will carry over into next season, and that McCants and Foye will get the same calls as Kobe, Lebron, Wade, and Mayo. I won't hold my breath however.
David Brauer (not verified)09:46am
Jun 27
Great time for us amateur capologists! Stripping away the meaningful players (Mayo for Love & Miller), the deal's cap implications are, simply, that Taylor & the Wolves spend a little more in 2008-09, a lot more in 2009-10, and save a fair amount in 2010-11. Here's how it goes: 2009: Wolves spend $1.9M more. Miller ($9M), Cardinal ($6.3M) and Collins ($6.2M) make $21.5M. Walker ($9.3M), Marko ($6.575M) and Buckner ($3.759M) make $19.6M. 2010: Wolves spend $9.4M more. Miller (9.8M) and Cardinal (6.75M) make $16.5M. Marko's $7.1M is the only guarantee the Grizzlies have to meet. 2011: Wolves save $7.625M. All Memphis vets now off Wolves' books. Grizz still stuck with Marko's $7.625M. Currently, Jefferson is the only Wolf with a guaranteed contract in 2010-11 ... which is exactly appropriate for the club's talent. The Wolves should be over the cap by a bit this year when you add on Love's $3.8M slot, re-sign Gomes and maybe a mid-level. The following season (2009-10) they should be $10-$15 million under the cap, assuming they re-sign Gomes, add a midlevel and don't renegotiate any deals. The players still signed that year are: Jefferson, Miller, Foye, Love, Brewer, McCants, Madsen, Cardinal and the last remaining year of Troy Hudson's deal. As noted, in 2010-11, Jeff and Love are the only players guaranteed. Their deals will total roughly $17M. Add in $4.7M for Foye and $3.7M for Brewer (if team exercises options) and you're at $25.4M. Then toss on whatever you think Gomes will make, if re-signed, and one or two mid-level guys. Resigning Miller remains an option.
WallyPA (not verified)09:49am
Jun 27
How could we pass on DeAndre Jordan with both of our second round picks? I am surprised that nobody is talking about this. An extremely athletic true center for our last pick? Maybe he pans out, maybe he doesn't, but he could soak up a lot of mins as a defensive center if he did. Seems like a clear low risk, high reward scenario to me, even if its improbable that he succeeds. That said, I REALLY like mike miller. while he doesnt make us a playoff team in the west, he will get us a lot closer than most people realize right now. HUGE boost to outside scoring, rebounding, and offensive movement. I like the trade, even though I was warming to OJ... Best wished for Love...
stop-n-pop (not verified)10:16am
Jun 27
Jordan had terrible workouts and it turned out he wasn't nearly as athletic as first billed.
Jason Zeaman (not verified)10:29am
Jun 27
I'm a little surprised to read some of the comments from Wolves fans. Perhaps it's a sign of dogs being kicked too often, we assume the worst. That and the peculiarity of celebrity and the power of name repetition and the projection of possibility onto someone we don't know very well. In other words: would you expect the average die-hard Wolves fan to be really upset if the Wolves traded away a young jump-shooting combo guard with little slashing ability and moderate athleticism but good defense who doesn't get to the line very often and has decent but not great point guard skills? Not if they weren't named OJ Mayo. I think Mayo is a solid player who will be good, probably very good. And who has almost no chance of being great. He will not be a great point guard. He will not be a great scorer. He will probably be a very good combo guard who can do a little of everything, the kind that may make an all-star game here or there in their late 20s/early 30s. Billups with better D and slightly worse O as the best case. Is that the kind of player we should be distraught over trading? On the other hand, is Love likely to be a great player? I doubt it. He certainly has more risk than Mayo. He's a bit of a hard player to project I think. He does the things that are undervalued and often harder to see but which do have real game value (spacing, passing, lower % of turnovers, rebounding position), but he also has significant limitations (jumping ability that is below average for the 4 and well below for the 3, 6'9" in shoes, modest speed, though not plodding). Unlikely to be great, might be good. Meanwhile the Wolves acquired a solid NBA starter in Miller who actually will help our one player capable of being great, Jefferson. And we re-arranged some bad contracts with Memphis but to the Wolves' benefit. Not bad. I'm not crazy about trading away Chalmers, but again, there aren't many players selected 34th who end up being significant in the NBA. It happens, but there are reasons he was passed on 33 times. All that and I wouldn't be surprised at all if Pekovic is the most important player in the long run to come out of this draft for the Wolves. Seems like a good night for the team I root for.
stop-n-pop (not verified)12:47pm
Jun 27
"In other words: would you expect the average die-hard Wolves fan to be really upset if the Wolves traded away a young jump-shooting combo guard with little slashing ability and moderate athleticism but good defense who doesn't get to the line very often and has decent but not great point guard skills? Not if they weren't named OJ Mayo." A-frickin-men. With Foye vis-a-vis Mayo it's like a Tercel owner getting all hyped about a Camry.
Andy G (not verified)02:03pm
Jun 27
The Jordan thing is what bothers me most. ZERO risk, HUGE reward. He is like every other player, in that his athleticism is best viewed by watching video. Whether his vertical jump measured at 30" or 44" he makes powerful, agile plays around the rim that are Dwight Howard-esque. For a team whose only center is Jason Collins, it was worth a shot--2nd Rounders don't even get a guaranteed salary.
pagingstanleyroberts (not verified)09:57am
Jun 27
I was looking forward to seeing what they would come up with at 31 and 34, so it's a bit disappointing that no one they picked with those picks will be on the team next year. The one thing that bothers me is that they put more of their future eggs in the Heat's basket. Unless Wade's injuries are chronic and end his career early, they'll probably get back to the playoffs eventually. I'd rather have #34 in a deep draft than #44 in one draft and #39 in another. The one rationalization I can see with this move and all of McHale's moves in the past few years is an attempt to erase previous mistakes -- getting our pick back from Boston, replacing our Clippers pick with Miami's, getting rid of bad contracts, replacing the 2nd rounders we lost in the Marc Jackson and Ronald Dupree trades. Also, having more second-rounders opens up more trade possibilities in the future. Ultimately, though, I think they'd be better off at PG if they re-signed Telfair and picked up a veteran who can play in emergencies and tutor the other players in fundamental defense and running a team.
Captain America (not verified)10:03am
Jun 27
Britt - Really liked your analysis. I too was disappointed with the trade to Miami of Mario Chalmers. Perhaps the Wolves have another card to play at the point? With Heat cash perhaps it will be in free agency. Lost in most readings is the fact that Glen Taylor repeatedly stated well before the draft that the T-Wolves are going to get a Lottery pick and a foreign player who they can incubate in Europe for a year (or two as it turns out). This is right out of the Spurs playbook. The blockbuster trade does clean up the books considerably. If there is addition by subtraction, the trade was just that.
David Brauer (not verified)10:03am
Jun 27
Thinking of Love made me remember McHale's classic comment about taking a dump onstage if the Wolves drafted "Big Country" Reeves all those years back. Memphis fans are making the analogy here: http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2008/jun/26/grizzlies-still-search-draft-day-deal/?feedback=1#comments
JPFnotJPK (not verified)10:08am
Jun 27
I like this trade for all the reasons Britt said, and don't like it for all the reasons he said; I would've also included that our draft day swap history is Nicht Gut. The trade is beside the point though, because we could've left this draft with OJ Mayo and Bill Walker - two high school friends, two incredible talents, and a backcourt of the future. Mayo wouldn't have had that sourpuss look on his face for long if we took Walker. I knew nothing of the Serb, but upon reading and seeing some clips I'm sold - but DeAndre Jordan instead wouldn't have been terrible. Mainly the Mayo/Walker thing, though. Mayo/Walker > Love/Miller, when considering we would've dangled McCants/Jaric(who apparenly Isn't untradeable)/Foye, etc for a big. It's highly possible we're the worst team for Love to go to. Him and Al are essentially - save differences on the offensive end - the same player. It's also highly possible Love keeps doing what he's done at every level. I dunno. It's all a crapshoot after Beasley. Yeah, hey: at least we're not the Bulls. Coulda had Beasley.....foolz.
stop-n-pop (not verified)10:13am
Jun 27
Here's one thing that I think is being overlooked in the aftermath of the deal: there was 1 trading partner for OJ Mayo. Don't get me wrong, I think the Wolves played thier hand the best they could, but Riley was bluffing from the get go, the Knicks and Clips got thier guys while tantilizing the Wolves with trade possibilities, teams like Milwaukee and New Jersey took the money and ran, and the best GM in the league went up for Bayless instead of OJ. All of those teams (except Portland) turned up a bit of the Mayo heat late in the run-up for the draft. All of those teams took players the Wolves were interested in. I know it's not a popular take, but I really don't think Mayo was that high on many peoples boards when it came down to getting value. It sounds like nobody was making any phone calls to the Wolves until Memphis bailed them out late in the game. I'd bet a fair chunk of change that they got more calls for Pekovic than they did for Mayo. I don't think the Wolves could have played it any differently with the top pick, but does anyone else here think that other teams built up the Mayo hype to make sure the Wolves wouldn't do anything out of the ordinary and take Gallinari, Lopez, or Alexander?
jianfu (not verified)02:16pm
Jun 27
Yeah, maybe it's the paranoia particular to Midwesterners in me, but the signal-to-noise ratio on Mayo seemed to jump dramatically from the end of the season to the draft. Keep in mind, when the Wolves got pick #3 in a supposed "2 player draft," many talking heads figured they'd just be drawing straws. Now many of the same commentators are saying they gave away the third potential star/no-brainer of the draft. When did that happen? Maybe I missed some Trojans games? I suspect this will work out fine for Minny. There's lots of players in the league high on skill and short on hops who get it done, including some of the best in Duncan, Dirk, Brandon Roy... I'm not throwing Love in their level yet, not by any stretch; I just think we've reached a point where questions about a guy's athleticism can take a backseat, at least temporarily when he can produce like Love has, particularly at a school like UCLA. Obviously, he's doing something right. Every single analytical-based projection system--from Hollinger to Wages of Wins to Hoopsanalyst.com--has him pegged as hands down the second best prospect in this draft after Beasley (Mayo, OTOH, doesn't fare nearly as well). We'll see obviously. This is certainly a controversial deal, one that might take years to suss out. In that regard, it's interesting. I like the deal. No, it's not perfect. I suspect that Jefferson and Love will be a huge handful on offense but questionable on D. But no matter what they do, they're not going anywhere next year, anyhow. May as well plug in a guy who looks like a good bet to be an asset up front. And I still can't believe they've now dumped both Marc Blount (my least favorite Wolve of all time) AND Marko Jaric. We all have our own personal favorite scenarios (yesterday at canishoopus I tapped into my inner Kevin Pritchard and proposed the Wolves should pull a 3-way where the Bucks get the #3 pick, the Warriors get Yi Jianlin, and the Wolves get Brandan Wright, the #8 (Alexander), and the #14; addressing the Wolves frontcourt/athletic diffeciencies in one fell swoop; but alas, Yi was dealt shortly after to the Nets...) But in the end, if we view the draft more along the lines of "playing the hand you've got", I think the Wolves did just fine. Also, I have a sneaking suspicion that they had a deal with the Clippers to get their pick back should Love have fallen to them. I don't know if Britt was being serious when he claimed McHale bit his hand when the Grizz picked him, but I think that was in the hopper. Just a hunch, plus the fact the Clips were making a late attempt to grab pick #4.
Jim (not verified)10:13am
Jun 27
This trade will end up being the worst in the long line of awful trades McHale has made. Here's why: Superstar factor: Third pick in the draft equals chance to get a legit star. Ask anyone who follows basketball who is more likely to be an all star, love or Mayo, and 95 percent will say Mayo. Defense: Britt correctly notes that Miller is not a great defender. Neither is Love, neither is Jefferson, neither is Foye. Everyone on this board railed on how awful this club was defensively last year and now many are praising a deal that sent away a guy (Mayo) who has a chance to be an elite defender for two guys no one in their right minds thinks will be even above average defensively. Small front line: Love can't play any other position in the NBA but power forward, so Jefferson is going to continue playing center and we all saw how that turned out last year. McHale actually referenced an undersized championship front court from the 1970s in defending this deal, as if that has anything to do with today's NBA. In three years, when Love is a rotation player and Mayo has his own series of Nike commercials and is an all-star, this trade will be remembered as the worst McHale move of all, not to mention the PR hit this team is about to take from casual fans who were eager to see Mayo play. In this case the "sexy" pick was the right one for all kinds of reasons.
jimbotron (not verified)12:15pm
Jul 6
jim, you and levi and rhino can cry all you want. your superstar craving, racist bating, hopelessly in love with hating mchale's every move for the sake of hating is boring. i wish you all would just become a clipper fan and go watch your baron davis, al thornton, tim thomas fun filled, chuckerfest. here's to good ball movement, solid shooting and solid fundamentals.
levi (not verified)07:56am
Jul 9
jimbotron, I've pondered your post for a couple of days now. Frankly, I don't get what you mean by "racist baiting". I don't understand where you perceive "superstar craving" in my postings. I'll grant that it's obvious that I have no respect for the management "ability" of Kevin McHale -- in fact, his ineptitude across decades demands to be called out. But it's not "hating for the sake of hating" as you allege, at least for me personally. Unfortunately, the truth is often inconvenient to the hopeless homers out there who are psychologically unable to face the facts before their eyes. So...anyways... In addition to ball movement, good shooting, and solid fundamentals, here's to hustle, character, and defense. I'd rather watch a team displaying those attributes than a "superstar" like Kobe Bryant any day.
stop-n-pop (not verified)10:26am
Jun 27
I would like to know why people think that OJ Mayo has star potential. I'm not saying this to be a prick, but I just don't get it. What is it? It can't just be "other people think he'll be great" or "this is just another Roy/Foye". What is it?
Jim (not verified)10:36am
Jun 27
Did you watch Mayo play at USC last year? He's an awesome shooter, handles the ball, is an excellent passer, is praised for his competitiveness and thought of as a potentially elite defensive player (shut down Bayless last year), is a smooth, under control player who doesn't force shots, can legitimately play either guard position (unlike Foye) is strong enough to not get pushed off the ball in the NBA (unlike Brewer) and is driven to be an elite all around player (unlike McCants), has been playing and holding his own against NBA players in pick up games in LA for two years, has the kind of star power that would make people actually attend Wolves games unlike the two slow white dudes who the Wolves traded him for. Did I mention he's a sweet shooter?
stop-n-pop (not verified)10:44am
Jun 27
I did see him play. I even read the articles mid-season about how he didn't match the hype and the ones near the end of the season that touted him as a solid, hard working guy. I also caught the Pac-10 awards ceremony. I agree with his defensive potential (he also did a number on Rose and Westbrook), but he's not any bigger or stronger than Foye. He's no more driven than Love (or a number of other players), and he shot well from outside but inside the arc he didn't get to the line or shoot a high percentage. He's a very nice player, but those things can be said about a number of players. To me, most of your description could be applied to Mario Chalmers: great defender, sweet shot, big time competetor, smooth and under control, unflappable, holding his own against high level competition... I also don't get the slow white dude take. Is Al Horford slow and white?
Steve J (not verified)11:55am
Jun 27
After sleeping on it, I'm still with Britt and S & P on this one. Even as Mayo was walking to the podium with a "oh f*ck, I am actually going to have to play in Minnesota" look I started to think he may be Starbury 2.0 in that we wouldn't have him very long before he would find a way out. Sure, Mayo could develop into a superstar in the league. He could also develop into Starbury, Jamal Crawford, Steve Francis, etc etc etc. One cannot discount the entire scope of the trade, however, which is what most commenters seem to have done, opting instead to make a comment about Foye vs. Roy and saying we picked up "two slow white dudes". BTW, Love's 3/4 court sprint time was faster than Beasley's, Deandre Jordan's, and Anthony Randolph's at the pre-draft combine. His 35" max vert tied Beasley's and is really pretty solid for a big. I'm not saying Love is a sure-thing, I'm just wondering where this "slow white guy" label comes from. Mike Miller is a HUGE upgrade for this team and is a legit NBA starter on any team. That simply cannot be undervalued. Also, shedding the Jaric deal was an incredible move even if it meant taking back Brian Cardinal. I'll take the seven-foot character guy for $14 million over 2 years over the definition of "tweener" and his 3 year $21 million deal. $7 Million is a ton of dough in the NBA folks, it's more than a mid-level exception, and it's a large step in becoming a player on the free agent market for the first time since 03-04. Finally, while it would have been nice to have a stud in the backcourt, I agree with S&P that the Wolves weren't going anywhere this year with or without Mayo, and you can find good off-guards in EVERY SINGLE DRAFT, as we'll see at the end of this year when the Wolves are picking late in the first round with the Miami and Boston picks (I think we'll be better than the bottom 10 and lose our pick to the Clips). You simply don't get a chance to get the best big in a draft every year, which is what they did in addition to making the team better, both on opening night this season and in the future.
David Brauer (not verified)10:46am
Jun 27
46 percent from the 2, 40 percent from the 3.
stop-n-pop (not verified)10:55am
Jun 27
198-324 .611 29-82 .354 That's Love from 2 and 3. He also got to the line with a 63.7 FTRate.
Jim (not verified)11:03am
Jun 27
I hope that's not meant to be a rip. Mayo shot 215 threes last year. He was 237 for 536 overall. Love played center and shot 227 for 406 overall and was 29 for 82 from three point range. I hope no one expects him to be a legit outside shooter in the NBA or to shoot above 50 percent from the field.
stop-n-pop (not verified)11:13am
Jun 27
It's not a rip. It's merely a comment about the type of scorers both players are. It's one of the big reasons why one guy is much more efficient than the other. Getting to the line and having a very high eFG is a much better and more reliable way of scoring than depending on 40% of your shots coming off the 3 ball and not getting to the line.
Jim (not verified)11:40am
Jun 27
That's fine but Love won't be able to do what he did in college in the NBA and Mayo will, that's the difference. Love is undersized front court player who isn't fast enough to be a three or tall enough to be a 5 which means Jefferson has to be a center and he's not big enough or a good enough defender.
stop-n-pop (not verified)12:43pm
Jun 27
"That's fine but Love won't be able to do what he did in college in the NBA and Mayo will, that's the difference." ...I get that you like this position, but it's got about as much behind it as me believing in invisible unicorns. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Jim (not verified)12:56pm
Jun 27
And I get that Love's "efficiency" in college was great — but there's a LOT of people who don't think he's big/athletic enough to do what he did at UCLA in the NBA. He was on an elite team in college that was superior to nearly all of their opponents last year. He's shown no ability to be an above average NBA defender, is a small post player, isn't considered explosive on the block and doesn't run the floor well. He's a good passer and shooter and I'm not saying he won't have a solid NBA career. But he doesn't fit in with Jefferson despite whatever McHale spin you hear and doesn't have the home run potential Mayo does, either on the court or off it. With that, I'm out, we'll see next year if all the Love/Brewer lovers on this site are pleased with what they see on the floor, knowing the could be watching a top three of Jefferson, Mayo and Thornton.
wtd3 (not verified)04:44pm
Jun 27
I think the fact that Love was on an "elite" college team last year only speaks to how much more valuable he is than Mayo - Mayo got his numbers on a team where he was far and away the best player, but Love put up even more impressive numbers on a team filled with NBA talent. Maybe I'm way off here, but I think that a guy who stands out among top-flight talent is more impressive than a guy who puts up good numbers on a team he went to expressly so that he could showcase his talents and be the best player there (which, if you go back and read what Mayo said about choosing USC, pretty much sums up his reasons for going to USC). Bottom line, I agree with SNP that all the fuss about OJ Mayo is based largely on hype - how many other 6' 4" combo guards go on to become dominant NBA superstars? Good luck with that, Memphis.
Andy G (not verified)02:50pm
Jun 27
I don't think OJ has the "star" potential of Rose or Beasley, but I think he's an absolute lock to be at least a good guard, and has a very good chance of being an All-Star guard in a few years. He'll never be Kobe Bryant or LeBron James, but those guys come along once or twice in a generation. Derrick Rose is more likely to get in that company, because he's got their athleticism and penetration ability. I think OJ is either a better ball-handling Ray Allen, or a more athletic Sam Cassell. Plus, he's tough on defense. Maybe Love will be a Wes Unseld/Bill Walton type of passing big-man--I just think it's less of a sure-thing as it is that OJ will be a very good, and possibly great pro.
stop-n-pop (not verified)04:09pm
Jun 27
Are Wes Unseld/Bill Waltons just as rare as Kobe/Jameses? I'm not comparing value, but I don't ever hear the opposite asked with the "he could be so-and-so" argument.
Andy G (not verified)04:14pm
Jun 27
Good point--I have no idea; I've never seen Unseld or Walton play. I guess it sounds like Love has the more "rare" skill-set, given his phenomenal outlet passing that nobody (perhaps in the world) has right now. However, I think the Kobe/MJ/LeBron type of explosiveness is more likely to bring team success in the NBA. Hard to say, though. If Love really can initiate an uptempo game with his long passes, it would be a lot of fun to watch--and could possibly save Corey Brewer's career. I just hope we can stop people in the paint.
APB (not verified)10:50am
Jun 27
First, as a courtesy to Andy G, I am changing my name to APB. I don't wish for readers to confuse my comments with the much more astute observations of Andy G. I'm just a fan spouting off. I cannot break the game down as well as him. However, I think all of us have been conditioned by the Wolves to believe that anything they do will be a disaster. I don't think the recent past bears this out. Despite KG's ring, they still made the right trade in getting Jefferson in return. They have more good draft picks coming in the future and a roster of young players that can play right now in the NBA. The difficulty will be finding a rotation. I really don't get all the noise about the 34th pick. Its the 34th pick! I mean, I agree with S&P that Mayo must not have been that high on other teams boards and other teams were bluffing. I think the same has to be said about Chalmers, Jordan and CDR. If past drafts are any indication there is about a 95% chance that these three players will not be in the league in 3 years time. They have two more 2nd rounders coming in return. They don't need any more young players right now to try and figure where they fit in the rotation or to groom for sometime in the future. Come on folks, this is a pretty good trade. Once again we are going into the season with better prospects and possibilites than the previous season ended on. McCants will be working for a contract and I guarantee he will have a very good season making the Mayo even less noticable. Foye will also be going into the season healthy and insynch with his teammates. Telfair showed enough promise last year to be much more deserving of a roster spot than a 34 pick in the draft. And they have a legit center (Collins) to slide next to Jefferson. Love will get his minutes depending on matchups, but I am hoping we see him playing alongside Collins and Jefferson at least for portions of games. And, Miller is a very good player. The guy is great guy. You can see it on the floor and before games during the warmups. He loves being in the NBA and takes nothing for granted. He'll be invaluable when he is on the floor with Jefferson. No more Walker or Jaric contract. THis was a great trade.
APB (not verified)10:51am
Jun 27
formarly Andy B
Andy G (not verified)02:34pm
Jun 27
Thanks for the praise, although I'm not sure my comments are any more astute than others that comment on Britt's blog. Here's why I was so upset with the 34-pick treatment. I emailed a friend shortly before the draft with my "best case, within reason, scenario for the Wolves." Here's what I wanted to see: OJ Mayo DeAndre Jordan Serge Ibaka or Nicolas Batum Well, we had OJ locked up early in the draft. Ibaka and Batum went in the late-first, but Jordan was somehow slipping past everyone in the 20's. He was rated something like 19th by Bilas and nobody questioned his potential--just his NBA-readiness. So when we took Pekovic at 31, I was disappointed, but quickly turned those feelings around when Fran Fraschilla said he was (in as many words) the exact type of player Minnesota needs. Now, Jordan magically drops a few more spots and we're up with ANOTHER shot at him. NOTHING TO LOSE. Well, it turns out there was something to lose, and that was cash for Taylor. We would not have had to sign Jordan, if I'm not mistaken. I'm not saying he'll be a star, or even be good, but if Jay Bilas--(a guy who watched him play in those A&M games)--considers him the 19th best prospect in the draft, and he fits the most glaring need on our roster, and the guy we just drafted won't be here for another year or two, I just don't understand the decision. Until I hear he smoked pot during water breaks at his workout up here, I'll forever question that choice. Even if he becomes a role-playing enforcer-type, that's exactly what we need and exactly what he appears to have the potential to become. Anyway, we were really close to getting Mayo, Jordan, and a European big man that is probably better than Serge Ibaka, so my dream scenario almost played out. When we passed on Jordan for cash and traded away Mayo, the shit hit the fan, in my opinion. I still like Kevin Love, but I'm not sure if/how he fits into our personnel situation. Hopefully something works out.
Jackdaw (not verified)03:52pm
Jun 27
This is more or less my thinking. We were so close to making all the right choices....and then it all went to pieces. In one deal we gave away an electric scorer, slasher, and plus defender for: an undersized front-line guy who plays the same position as our franchise player, a solid pro who will be long gone before the rest of the roster develops, and deadwood bad contracts. I know a lot of people are high on Love, but I think we again may have traded away the Rookie of the Year. Then in another deal we gave away a level-headed PG for a little bit of cash and future second-round picks that may well be less promising than the current picks--rather a Donald Sterling-type move in my opinion. The only thing I'm pleased about is the Nikola Pekovic selection, but who knows when we'll actually see him in a Wolves uniform.
Wim (Belgium) (not verified)10:59am
Jun 27
Britt In deciding whether or not the Timberwolves helped themselves you look at if the roster improved. I don't agree with that vision. I thought we were rebuilding to get a championship. Rebuilding to get a championship to me means getting 9 to 10 guys who are all about the same age so they can get time to play together, bond and reach their primes together. The fact that so many people dislake the trade is not that the trade was bad, but that there was better to be had, because this trade does not fit in the rebuilding strategy. That trade is bringing us back on the KG road again, good enough for playoffs, no chance to make it anywhere beyond 2nd round. Miller is a good player, no doubt about that, but does he bring us closer to winning a championship in 5 years? No, not a bit, because he will be gone by then or too old ... unless they can trade him off course. So the thing is, that I got the feeling we still need more young guys to try and fit in that core of 9-10 and see what works best (like portland is doing). For instance, I was hopeing something like May for Gallinari and Lee would happen. Or trade down to clippers, take Lopez and get our first rounder next year back. This trade we got nothing but cash relief and players that are going to improve us .. but what's the use, we're not gonna get a championship with them. Also, even though I like Love (seen him play a game or 3-4 in college) there were much better fits in the top 10. Gallinari and Lopez would both have filled either a positional need or functional need. Love only makes the lineup an even bigger bunch off good players thrown together with no identity. It's completely not a philosophy that's behind it...
Wolf in MO (not verified)01:05pm
Jun 27
Wim - I know that this is broken down further in the postings, but I think that was trade was made with an eye to the future. We remove a lot of dead wood that would have been on the books longer and dividing the team. This way, we have more room in future salary cap wise and more possiblities personalty wise. While it would be nice to be able to draft and go straight into the playoffs, I think that this will be better in the long run. On a tangent, I was just reading the grizz postings from the draft up through this AM and noticed that they feel the same way about Chris Wallace as we do McHale. Think we could swap GM's??
APB (not verified)01:41pm
Jun 27
And to add to that, before the trade of Mayo our roster was tied up with Jaric, Buckner and Mayo with Foye, McCants, Telfair and Brewer all taking up roster spots as guards with Snyder also waiting to be signed. Chalmers would have made another guard reserving a spot on the roster. In addition, we had Walker using up a spot and doesn't want to play. After the trade, we have a 7 foot center in Collins, Love, Cardinal and Miller who all, besides Miller who can play either small forward or shooting guard, are forwards and centers, while clearing the logjam we've had at small forward/shooting guard we've had since KG by moving Jaric, Buckner and Mayo. This is an excellent opportunity for McCants to have a breakout year as he works for a new contract and doesn't have to worry about being behind anybody in playing time. He knows the system and what Wittman wants from him, it is just up to him to execute. I am predicting McCants has much better numbers this year than Mayo while improving his defense up a notch that rivals what Mayo might bring to Memphis. I wasn't happy about the Love/Jefferson tandem that moves Al Jefferson to the center position and off the PF spot where he can dominate. However, at times when Big Al is not getting it done against larger and more powerful centers we have an option on the bench in Collins to bring in and change the dynamics of the game. THis is a much better option than Richards who was too undersized to make teams pay for going big against us last year. With Collins, I'm not nearly as worried about Love and Jefferson playing together and I'm still holding out hope we can play the going big card with a Love/Jefferson/Collins frontcourt when the opportunity arises.
midlife crisis (not verified)01:44pm
Jun 27
Getting to a championship??? That is not this team's goal at all. They are hoping for a team that doesn't make it a tough decision between watching the game or catching the new season of reality shows (or worse, Britt covering politics instead of b-ball. It's not realistic to aim at a championship with LA, NO, and Portland in the west; at least not for the near future. They can put together a competitive team, however, and I think we made giant strides towards that. Wouldn't it be nice to make the playoffs, especially if we did it Golden State style with 113-108 games. I want to win a championship, and I want to hope for one.... but I'm also an NBA junkie, and will take what I can get right now. I should admit that I hated the trade last night (especially after the money saving move with #34), but the morning and a cup of coffee helped. If GT wanted to save money, this was a somewhat less painful way of it happening, and I will be fully brought around if they end up paying that European to come over in two years.
Wim (Belgium) (not verified)02:16pm
Jun 27
Obviously I wans't talking about working towards a championship in 2-3 years .. mor like 5-7 .. Just want to say I wouldn't like another 12 years of first round playoff exits because the right pieces never come together at the same time. On the other hand, I can see the point that this allows us to add a (star) player through free agency instead so if that works out it might not be a bad trade after all .. I just hope that frontcourt works .. can't wait for next season.
secretarykissinger (not verified)01:26pm
Jun 27
Liking the trade, especially liking how polarizing it has been. I'm already looking forward to re-evaluating it in a year or two and making some sense of it. I think we have to hope that Collins will show some defensive grit and mitigate at least some of the D problems down low. If so, there's some promise.... But right now it's hard not to be fascinated with what's going on in the front office. Mchale is so clearly driven by these obsessions -- not only with the latest version of his narcissistic front court fantasy, but also with orchestrating these baroque draft night trades, as if when one of them finally clicks he'll be revealed as the genius that he knew he was all along. But even more surprising than his stubbornness is the way that everyone seemed to be on different pages last night, with both Taylor and Freddy Ho out of the loop or even hung out to dry. I haven't read the reports on the contested decisionmaking between Mchale and Hoiberg during the evening, but I cannot believe the disparity between FH and GT's public gushing about Mayo, and the reality of what Mchale was evidently simultaneously cooking up in his lab/dungeon. So are their earlier public comments just posturing, maybe to further inflate Mayo's apparent value, or is Hoiberg boiling with resentment today about both the outcome and the way it came down? I just don't quite know what to think.
el machino (not verified)05:00pm
Jun 27
Mr. Secretary, I'm loving your comments about McHale's obsessions as his only way to salvation. I think he's hoping he finally found the big guy he can take under his tutelage (and 8-ft. wingspan) so we'll finally forget about StoykoVrancovic, Paul Grant, Rasho, Rick Rickert, Ndudi, Eddie Griffin, et al. and finally pronounce him the genius he thinks he is, as the Secretary notes. And the pre-trade comments from Freddie and the gang are truly bizarre, given what ultimately went down.
midlife crisis (not verified)01:56pm
Jun 27
If McHale is to be believed, they continued playing their hand well all the way to the end. By not calling Memphis back, the Grizz never got the discount they were hoping for. After an hour, the thoughts of the Gay-Love jokes flying down south of the mason dixon line, they came back with a really, really good deal for the wolves. The only plus in this trade for the grizz is they have set a new NBA record for earliest tanking date.
stop-n-pop (not verified)02:42pm
Jun 27
In all seriousness towards Memphis, the Gasol deal got them in a good spot and this deal, while exceedingly shitty for their current on-court prospects, keeps them in line for a big free agent push after next season. I think they're nuts to trade a big for a small (especially with their lineup), they are on pace for Conley, Mayo, Gay, Arthur, and Gasol. That's not bad and while I think they traded for the wrong guy and gave up a nice asset in Miller, they clearly have a plan and I think some Wolves fans (judging from some of the cliff jumping that has taken place today) would like that lineup better than what Minny has right now.
David Brauer (not verified)02:46pm
Jun 27
FWIW, the NY Times lurves the Love deal: http://is.gd/Hwr
David Brauer (not verified)02:55pm
Jun 27
But FoxSports hates it: http://is.gd/HwQ
Andy G (not verified)03:33pm
Jun 27
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2008/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=DraftGrades-080627 Notice the A- grade and praise for McHale, and then read what he says about Miami getting Chalmers, and LA Clippers getting Jordan. Is it reconcilable that we did very well in that draft, and yet Miami worked wonders to get Chalmers (we could've kept him) and LAC were brilliant to get Jordan at 35 (we could've drafted him)? I'd give McHale a B- for that draft. Love & Miller for Mayo is totally up in the air, and I just happen to be one of the people who'd prefer Mayo, although still like Love. I think Mayo is a better fit. Pekovic sounds great--good pick there. Completely botched opportunity at 34. Can't get over this.
stop-n-pop (not verified)04:06pm
Jun 27
This could have been a monster draft with Chalmers. For all of the talk about the Wolves needing a true point who could defend and shoot...well, he was there for the taking. BTW: The more I think about it, Miami wanted Beasley and Chalmers all along and both players, I believe, are superior to Love and Mayo, respectively. I don't think the Heat ever had Mayo in mind. If anything, that should be some sort of silver lining here; the Wolves didn't keep the player that Miami didn't want. It's too bad they didn't keep the player they did.
APB (not verified)11:36am
Jun 30
Do you really believe Miami would have preferred Chalmers to Mayo? I think we will find out the Jordan, CDR and Chalmers will pan out as many second round draft picks have in the past--fighting for roster spots for their entire brief careers. That is not to say they might not be good. But remember, the standard for a good pick in the second round is Chris Richards and Craig Smith. Gilbert Arenas, Michael Redd and Manu Ginobilli are anamolies. Its possible one of them rises to that level, but I doubt all three will. Which One, then? I'd take my chances on Telfair over Chalmers at this point. I would have preferred they got CDR, but strictly on your suggestion and I wonder how they would work that into their roster now that they have Gomes, Brewer and Miller (Cardinal?) to fill out that position. I think it would have been a nice problem to have, but we might be wondering about the development of Brewer or CDR's game since both are young and both would require playing time. I'd imagine CDR would have been sitting most of next year on the bench or sent to the developmental league. Not sure that would have suited him too well.
KGdaBom (not verified)03:29pm
Jul 6
Chalmers and Jordan are nothing special at all. Please people if they were all that they would have been drafted in the first round. I know sometimes very good players come out of the second round but they are few and far between. Every year people call some second round pick a future star and people are wrong about it at least 90% of the time.
Anonymous (not verified)03:55pm
Jun 27
Ok. The T-wolves won't be great defensively with Jefferson and Love in the paint. Yes, Jefferson was much better at PF than C. But the addition of Love and Miller should improve the T-wolves team ppg immensely which really was a problem last year. Even when Foye came back they still had problems putting points up as only he, Jefferson, and McCants could get shots off by themselves. Foye can pick and roll with Love or drive and dish with Miller as a stand still shooter. Better perimeter spacing will allow Jefferson more room in the middle. Love's passing will improve everyone (imagine him lobbing the outlet pass to a streaking Brewer, an honest to goodness T-wolves fast break!) The defense will be brutal but don't us fan's deserve a little more scoring excitement than we have received the past three years? This team is still three years away from even beginning to think about contending for a division title. They still need to add good players and get rid of those who don't fit. Someone mentioned the T-wolves imitating the Trailblazer model of rebuilding, of collecting as many assets as possible. Unfortunately, the T-wolves have a long way to go. Nothing better demonstrates this than the trade of their second second rounder to Miami for cash and future picks. Cash? Please! The Blazers BUY 1st round picks! Why isn't any other team doing this? Late 1st round picks are available every year from luxury tax capped out playoff teams who know whoever they draft will be given a guaranteed contract even if they don't make the team. And with the luxury tax, that guaranteed deal is twice as expensive. This is how to acquire assets cheaply and transform a team from a rebuilding effort to being a very good, very young team which will only get better.
David Brauer (not verified)04:15pm
Jun 27
Just wondering ... how have purchased 1st-rounders worked out? Any stars? Definite rotation guys? Don't know if there's a list on this somewhere.
pagingstanleyroberts (not verified)11:31am
Jun 28
Many of them were bought by Portland. This shouldn't be discounted; something tells me the co-founder of Microsoft is less concerned about the bottom line than Glen Taylor. Portland traded the pick they bought this year for Houston's first-rounder (Nicolas Batum); the guy they bought from the Suns last year (Rudy Fernandez) was seen as a lottery pick had he come out this year, and he'll come over from Europe for this year; Rajon Rondo was purchased from Phoenix by Boston; Sergio Rodriguez from Phoenix by Portland; and there were a few more that were bought by Dallas in the early part of the decade like Etan Thomas.
David Brauer (not verified)04:24pm
Jun 27
Kevin Love gets Sam Mitchell's number. Good times.
Anonymous (not verified)06:39pm
Jun 27
Awesome posts as always, Britt and all. I’m a long-time reader, infrequent poster. I watched Love’s so-called “highlight” reels on YouTube, I see: layup, layup, uncontested slam dunk, layup, spotup jump shot, layup… Here’s what I don’t see: Love scoring over a sizable defender who has established good position in the paint. Does Love have moves that will translate to the NBA? Not “big man who can shoot” moves, but legit moves in the post? The skeptic in me is saying that drafting Love is just the latest in a long series of McHale’s wildly irrational man-crushes (Joe Smith, Nesterovic, Jaric…) Calling Love the franchise’s future “center” or asking Jefferson to play the 5 means the Wolves will be lunched on a daily basis, right? Bottom-line: Miller and Collins are probably gone in a few years, so the only question that matters is… did we add a second cornerstone in the 2008 draft? Britt, you are right again in saying that drafting a fourth-straight shooting guard was groundhog-dayesque, but how many times do the Wolves have the good fortune to hold the third pick in a “three-star” draft? It seems to me that if ever there was a year for BPA strategy, this was it…
pagingstanleyroberts (not verified)11:23am
Jun 28
There are a few problems with this, but I'll stick to the most relevant one: this was not seen as a 3-star draft. There was even debate about whether Mayo was the third-best player in the draft. Athletically, he's at about the same level for his position as Love is for his. I watched Mayo a lot in college and never saw one game where he looked dominant or overly athletic; don't most stars show that? I'm not saying that Mayo might not be a superstar, but if he was so highly regarded, there would've been more trade action on him than what there was.
APB (not verified)08:59am
Jun 30
There was even debate on whether Mayo was that much better than Randy Foye or Rashad McCants. I think, Wolves fans should have been worried at least, that Mayo was going to lead to groundhog Days. I am predicting that Rashad McCants has a career year for the Wolves in 08-09 that will have a much greater impact on the Wolves success, than Mayo's rookie year will have on Memphis. Foye will also have better stats than Mayo this year. Mayo won't be far behind, but Mayo's value in a trade peaked on Draft night. Foye and McCants value just wasn't that much, although it might go up.
Anonymous (not verified)07:42pm
Jun 27
We are terrified of success. Using “Mayo didn’t want to play in Minnesota” to rationalize an oversafe draft strategy is blind defeatism. If a guy who has dreamed of playing in the NBA since age 9 can’t be counted on to play here, move THIS franchise to Okla. and let Seattle enjoy Kevin Durant and co.
KGdaBom (not verified)02:59pm
Jul 6
I absolutely agree with this thought that if a team does not draft a player because he might not be thrilled to be there they might as well shut it down. Mayo may or may not have wanted to play here but we drafted him anyway. Now when the opportunity came up to trade him for a better player now in Miller and a potentially better player now and in the future in Kevin Love this deal became a no brainer. Also wanting Love because he showed great enthusiasm to be here was a plus.
Anonymous (not verified)07:49pm
Jun 27
Mayo, D. Jordan, and Chalmers. We could have landed ALL THREE of them. At various points in 2008, these three were pegged as high as #3s (both Mayo AND Jordan) and #15 overall. Sure, only Mayo figures to play right away, but they ALL might have eventually filled gaping holes: Best-case sour grapes 2010 rotation: * D. Jordan * Big Al Rhino * Gomes * Brewer * Mayo Foye Chalmers A super-athletic backcourt capable of shutting down the other teams’ guards… a nice assortment of stars, complimentary parts and role players. It burns.
Snyder (not verified)07:54pm
Jun 27
Count me as tentatively liking this deal. Yes, a Big Al/Love front line is still undersized by NBA standards, but not as much as Big Al/Gomes was. Now if Gomes returns, he plays SF and the Wolves have Brewer and Miller as options at SF/SG as well. If Brewer bulks up and develops range, they don't need to keep Miller after his contract runs out. If he doesn't, Miller's still relatively young for a guy you want to be your 3-point threat, plus he can board and pass a little, too. If Love's outlet passes are anything like people say they are, we're not only going to get to see Brewer catching TDs, but Shaddy, too. Which should hopefully help keep Shaddy happy so he's more willing to play D and less likely to hog the ball. And did I mention no more Jaric? Hooray!
Jason Zeaman (not verified)09:23pm
Jun 27
Regarding Mr. Mayo: 3.3 assists and 3.5 turnovers a game in college does not equal an NBA point guard. He may be a fine jump shooting 2 guard in the NBA, but he will never be a great point guard. Nor is he a slashing, driving, explosive, athletic 2. He does not rock the rim. He doesn't break ankles. He's a shooter. He has a nice shot. He plays good D too. That's not bad, but hardly worth getting out on the ledge because your team traded him away. As for the "Star Quality!" of Mr Mayo, an earlier poster mentioned his upside being Ray Allen. That seems a little lofty for OJ, but within the realm of possibility. Very few players have had the super sweet stroke of Ray Allen, but maybe OJ could get to that level. If he does, one has to ask though: just how many sold out arenas has Ray Allen generated over the years? How many jerseys and posters and shoes has he sold? How many fans have waited breathlessly for Ray Allen to come out for warm-ups? OJ Mayo has a fun name, and he's had that name in headlines for several years now. He sounds exciting, the name alone 'sounds' like a star player. But once he graces the NBA and everyone gets to see him play and see his solid and valuable, but not spectacular skills - well, I don't think anyone will be confusing him with Wade or Kobe anytime soon. But on draft night we can dream and we can gnash our teeth at the big, big star that got away...
Will Lose & Trade Everyone for Chicago's Last 2 Draft Picks (not verified)10:41am
Jun 28
Without any conditions placed on my statement, I think the trade is great. It made the Wolves' draft. Drafting Mayo is like acquiring a Foye backup or a Snyder replacement. The second round decisions were very disappointing. Maybe next year the draft will be deeper and they'll get something out of it after they've sorted out they're present and still messy guard situation. Maybe it, the money, trades, and free agency will allow something significant to happen. The Wolves definitely need another year of development and are still short the long, quick, athletic, defensive center we all know they need with the current roster. But the trade makes them a 30-something win team instead of a 20-something win team. It's scary, but 40 is even a possibility - mainly because they'll be stuck there without pulling off another smart trade. The Wolves just aren't smart enough to become anything other than an also-ran with 2nd-teir lotto picks. What I would have really liked is the Griz's #1 pick next year.
KGdaBom (not verified)02:01pm
Jul 6
Wow if they would have taken that I would have done that without an hesitation. The Grizz pick is almost certainly going to be a top five pick next year even if they still had Miller.
pagingstanleyroberts (not verified)11:54am
Jun 28
Moving away from the draft for a second, is anyone else surprised at who they did (Smith and Richard) and didn't (Telfair) extend qualifying offers to? This means that they still want the Rhino despite his redundancy (I like the guy though) and that they didn't think another team would offer Telfair close to 3.5 million per. FYI, they also extended a QO to Gomes and didn't extend one to Snyder.
Will Lose & Trade Everyone for Chicago's Last 2 Draft Picks (not verified)12:46pm
Jun 28
Other than Richard, that seems smart. Telfair probably would have rejected the minimum QO and is unlikely to see much more than it, so it seems like an OK gamble. Same goes for Snyder. It may say more about what free agents they have their eye on.
Wim (Belgium) (not verified)02:00pm
Jun 28
What's your source on that? Is it sure or just speculation that they're not gonna extend an offer to Telfair?
pagingstanleyroberts (not verified)02:14pm
Jun 28
It was reported in the Strib. They didn't extend an offer to him because they don't want to pay him $3.5 million. They want him back if his salary's lower than that.
Britt Robson12:23pm
Jun 28
Got some sleep after the all-nighter of live blogging and trade analysis after the draft, so didn't stop by here much yesterday. But now that I have, I see that there are various "anonymous" commenters, poking at a pet peeve of mine. For those new to the site: If you are anonymous, you don't exist and I don't consider your comments worthy of attention. Find yourself a handle so you can be accountable for what you say rather than landing in an amorphous bin of cowards unwilling to back up what they say with even a pseudonym. And henceforth on this thread--and others that don't get nationally linked and draw the uninitiated to the conversation--all "anonymous" comments will be deleted. Thanks for your cooperation.
Xand (not verified)12:48pm
Jun 28
I've simmered down a bit after some reflection and my stance of right now is that the Love/Mayo trade, while somewhat of a question mark, has some potential for the Wolves. I'm still very very ticked off by the complete fudging of the 2nd rounders, but the Mayo thing doesn't bug me much. Chalmers, Jordan and/or CDR all would have been excellent pick ups in the 2nd, though Pekovic may pay huge dividends if we can actually get him over here. People say he was the best big in Europe last year despite being only 22, so we'll see how that plays out. As to Love, well, for all the people complaining about his athleticism, it seems like you're basing your comments mostly on others' perceptions. Go look up the combine numbers and I think you'll be quite surprised. He was 16/69 in the lateral quickness drills, besting such highly touted athletes as Rose, Bayless, Joe Alexander and plenty more, while ranking neck and neck with Beasley. His 3/4 sprint was quite good for a guy his size, and his vert was exceptiona (35 inches!)l for a 255 lbs player with 12.9% body fat. It almost makes me wonder if we could slim him down to 230-240 lbs and try him out at the 3.. If Gomes can hack it there at that size, why not at least try it out? If he proves he can be a 3/4 rather than a 4/5 I feel much better about our future front court.
jesse (not verified)03:09am
Jun 29
Ok, When I first heard about the trade I was pretty upset. I was looking forward to solidifying the back court, and the idea that for sure now they had to get rid of the plethora of guards that we have. I was thinking we could get a defender in the perimeter and some reliable outside shooting and quite possibly a future star. I have always liked Mike Miller's game. I believe in the past I once wrote about how much I wanted him along side KG on this blog. But Mike Miller has never played a full season in the NBA. He put up good numbers on a bad team where he had the green light from the word go. If he stays healthy, which is a big "?" then I think he will do pretty good. Al Jefferson to me isn't a good or natural passer. He looks for his shot first, and yes, I know how adept and skillful he can be in doing so. He gets his shot off against double and triple teams. But therein is my beef with him. He will have 1-2 open players and still take it up going commando. Trusting him to be able to pass it back out is not something I'm holding my breath on. Basically, I think for this really to work for the Wolves, Jefferson has to become a better passer. Tim Duncan isn't a great passer either, but I think he feels the court out much better than Jefferson in the low post. Duncan doesn't average a ton of assists, but he makes the smart pass, the smart play. He trusts his team mates and I just think Big Al needs to do the same. I'm not asking for KG like passing skills. I also have to question how food the Wolves think they are going to be next year and or the next. Golden State had 48 wins and missed the playoffs. Portland, who I expect only to be better and get better every year had 41 wins. Even Sacramento had 38 wins. I expect the West to be just as difficult (not better by total wins because this slast season was freakish) but I think all the teams will be just as or even more competitive. That being said, But folks, honestly, (and I hope I'm wrong) but do you see the Wolves making the playoffs next year? How about the one after? And that's a big one because Miller's contract is up and so will be Foye's and also It will be the 3rd year of Brewer's contract as well. I know I'm sounding pessimistic, and the truth is I do actually think we will be more entertaining this coming year. I'm excited to see how it all works out. I think it has potential. As far as the 2nd round picks.. it always happens, but, there will be some players taken in the 2nd round that become very, very good players. The fact that we cold have had our pick of any of them, or even 2 of them is gonna suck.
Cheezy B (not verified)06:44pm
Jun 29
Don't worry about the playoffs for the next two years. If we somehow make it great, but I don't expect it. As you said, the West is extremely competitive. In the East we would have a shot in hell but not in the West. As T-Wolves fans we get the next two years to enjoy our teams growth, we're a year into rebuilding, we've (hopefully) got nowhere to go, but up. As far as resigning Miller, Foye and Brewer in two years, our financial situation looks very promising in two years, unless they all turn into LeBrons we can easily resign them (if they are worth resigning). I have a question though. Is it possible that McHale has screwed up so much in the past that he has learned from his mistakes and now may be a better GM for it? Maybe we are better off with him now because of his horrible track record? Maybe?
KGdaBom (not verified)01:53pm
Jul 6
That is an amazingly insightful post. Perhaps the best thing about McHale is he has had the chance to learn from his own mistakes. He has basically turned 180 from the moves he used to make.
APB (not verified)09:08am
Jun 30
Hasn't Miller's injury problems been sort of KG like? I mean for the last few years he always seemed to be taken out of the lineup at the end of the year to heal some previously unknown injury. In other words, Miller was "tanking," in the same way Taylor believed KG was "tanking." Right? or has it been slightly more bothersome?
paul (ikrushlots) (not verified)10:53am
Jun 29
Forgive me if somebody has already posted this (I haven't had the chance to read all the comments yet). Here are some interesting combine measurements and test results: http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=16619371&sid=1c7bb6c03ff6ba30bf40395979b81932 Seems what Hoiberg has been saying about Love's athletic prowess is true. He has the same vertical as Beasley (35 inches) and agility test is right on par with him. He does better in agility tests than Randolph and Arthur, who are both supposedly "athletic". His standing reach is right in line with these guys too. Hoiberg had pointed out that Love tested out very similar to Al Horford. Here is a comparison: Love(age 19) 6'9.5"---255 lb---6'11.5" wing---8'10" reach---12.9% fat---35" vert---18 reps---11.17 s agility---3.22 3/4 court Horford( age 21 when drafted) 6'9.75"---246lb---7'0.75" wing---8'11" reach---9.1% fat---35.5" vert---20 reps-12.15 s agility---3.37 3/4 court Very similar, and Love is two years younger than when Horford was tested.
Anonymous (not verified)11:02am
Jun 29
Two starting possibilities: PG: Foye SG: Miller SF: Gomes PF & C: Jefferson and Love (don't know what Love can do at center yet, so won't pick positions between the two) PG: Foye SG: McCants SF: Miller PF & C: Jefferson and Love I lean towards the former because I think McCants is best used as an instant offense guy off the bench. I think he has "sixth man of the year' potential. Either one of these lineups should have no problem scoring, but they both are pretty bad defensively.
paul (ikrushlots) (not verified)11:02am
Jun 29
Previous post was by me.
Wim (Belgium) (not verified)12:03pm
Jun 29
I'm not really sure if I like Horford as a center either but it does indeed seem a huge relief he can jump like that. I also (re-)watched his last college game (final 4 against memphis) again and what I could gather from that one game also strokes with what McHale said at the latest presser: He said Love outplayed the bigger men in the workout in target center because he uses his athletecism (and his strength and smartness) to get rebounds. So rebouding will probably not be an issue with Jefferson and Love together. So when I first read about the trade I had lots of concerns, since the athletecism and rebounding have been answered for, the only thing left is defense. It does seem Love was excellent at not giving away post position and also uses his body well (getting a charge in that particular final four game). So the only problem he might have is against 7footers, particulary the strong ones or the ones that don't need to be close to the basket to be effective. McHale says he's got great small-space speed, I sure hope he does because we're probably still gonna get a lot of guards and wing players cutting to the basket. Think I've finally completely 180'd on the trade after hearing the great insights from around here.
Stop-n-Pop (not verified)08:13pm
Jun 29
I think the Al Horford comparisons are to confront the notion that Kevin Love is "slow and white". He is essentially the same size and fitness as Horford, who is decidedly neither slow nor white. I think the lineup we'll end up seeing the most is a high/low post offense run with Foye and Love being the primary ball handlers in the 1/2 court set. Love will operate around the key and Miller, Shaddy, and Foye will alternate cuts towards the bucket with Jefferson moving back and forth between each block. The Wolves' most effective lineup will be this one: Foye, Shaddy, Miller, Love, and Jefferson. That's 3 guys who can hit 40% from range combined with a guy who can pass and shoot from 12-17 and a banger inside. A few things need to happen to make it really click: Shaddy can't hold the ball for more than 5 seconds. He has to realize that his bread can be buttered by shooting quickly, running a pick and roll, or passing and cutting. No one on one is required from the guy. Foye needs to show that he can break down a defense to the left from the top of the key. If these 3 guys can shoot 40% from 3 (which works out to an eFG of 60% by itself) the Wolves should be alright on the offensive end of the court...provided Foye and Shaddy's egos don't get in the way of 3 other guys who will likely clearly understand what needs to be done.
Levi (not verified)09:25pm
Jun 29
It is my contention that Love should not be considered as a starter for the Wolves next year, especially paired with Al Jefferson in a 4/5 combination. That's simply a Kool-Aid I'm not willing to drink. I think it's folly to think that teams don't need size and strength to compete in this league anymore. I suppose we could debate whether the Wolves are actually looking to compete, or just bring in enough of the gullible (or us lovers of the game) to keep some tidy profits rolling into Mr. Taylor's pockets, but that's a different discussion. When I look at the Western Confernce, I see plenty of size and strength in other teams. LA should have Bynum and Gasol (also Odom, Mbenga, and Mihm) next year. The Spurs have Duncan and Oberto (and who knows who they'll pick up). The Suns of course have Shaq and Amare, plus they added Robin Lopez. You can't forget about Yao and Dikembe in Houston. In the Northwest Division, Portland should have Odom and Aldridge (with Frye, LaFrentz, and Pryzbilla). The Jazz added a couple of 7 footers in the draft to help out Okur, Collins, and Boozer. OK, Seattle sucks, and Denver doesn't scare me much. Right now, I'm mentally comparing Kevin Love to Ben Wallace. Wallace used to be a beast, but it should be pretty obvious by now that he needs a big, rugged, 7+foot PF alongside. Ben had one in Rasheed, but gave that up to go to Chicago and the $$$, but found himself flailing there, so next stop Cleveland -- where he actually looked pretty pitiful in this year's playoffs since the Cavs could only field Varejao (or those former Timberwolves Joe Smith and Dwayne Jones) at PF. Now, Love may have more offensive skills than Big Ben, but we have yet to see Love display them at the NBA level. Just remember that Love had problems getting his shots blocked by Missouri Valley Conference players.
Jason Zeaman (not verified)10:05am
Jun 30
"may have more offensive skills than Big Ben" - well, you certainly set the bar at a modest height. I'm thinking Kevin Love will be able to be better than Ben Wallace on the offensive end. My biggest concern with K-Love are the physical things he can't change: height, reach, wingspan. I think he's very, very skilled but I wasn't sure if there was another starting power forward in the league who had his physical stature. I did some digging and here are a few comparisons that are interesting: (all measurements pre-draft combine) K-Love Height w/o shoes - 6'7" 3/4 Wingspan - 6'11" 1/4 Standing Reach - 8' 10" Max Vert. - 35" Carlos Boozer Height w/o shoes - 6'7" 3/4 Wingspan - 7'2" 1/4 Standing Reach - 9' 1/2" Max Vert. - 28.5" David West Height w/o shoes - 6'8" 1/4 Wingspan - 7'4" 1/4 Standing Reach - 9' 1/2" Max Vert. - 31.5" Height doesn't seem to be a big issue, more would help, but there are examples of people his height who have been successful at the 4. His wingspan and standing reach are definitely a concern. He has shorter arms than you would like for an NBA player of that size. It's not catastrophic, but a legitimate concern. Max Vert: Funnily enough - he has hops. The dude can jump. Does that plus good positioning = rebounds against the likes of Boozer or a David West? I suspect it does or that at least he can hold his own. Besides K-Love has been slimming down, his vert may actually increase. He is on the low end of size and wingspan for a 4, no doubt. But I don't think he is an extreme outlier as I had feared. Seems like if he has the talent and smarts and he keeps his jumping ability then his size will not hold him back from being a solid NBA 4.
RhinoLove (not verified)11:00am
Jun 30
Let's not forget that Boozer was a 2nd rounder and West a very late first rounder. We just used the number 3 pick to acquire a guy with questionable size and athleticism...the kind of guy who may turn out to be good (like Boozer and West), but who teams usually pick much later due to the big risks. I can't really say that I was sold on OJ Mayo, but I definitely do not "Love" our draft. While the trade down made some sense, we did not pick up any additional picks or young prospects...which makes zero sense. Collins is garbage and Mike Miller is a fully matured shooting specialist who serves no purpose on a team that doesn't have legit playoff aspirations. The ONLY way this trade works is if we can pull off a trade and dish Miller for picks/prospects. I will be rooting for Love, but I like everyone else, I am fearful of what our interior defense is going to look like next year. The guy is gritty, but he is still fat (after losing 25 lbs!) and short. We know Al Jefferson is not going to have his back either. I fear the best case scenario is Love is good enough to force a trade of Jefferson. I just don't see those two coexisting on a good team. I hope I am wrong about that, but at this point they seem too similar.
APB (not verified)11:25am
Jun 30
FAT? 12.9% body fat is not fat. Its not skinny, but it is far removed from fat. I think it is within the range of most elite athletes outside of marathon runners. I think you are right to be concerned that he has recently lost wieght and what this means for the future and him gaining it back. But, at this point, he is not fat nor even heavy. Fat dudes don't have 35" verticle leaps. I agree on the sililarities of Jefferson and Love and I also wonder about their ability to coexist. However, as has been pointed out, Love/Jefferson is a great improvement on Gomes/Jefferson and having Jason Collins on the bench to bring in against taller centers vs. Chris RIchards and Doleac is another great improvement that will allow Jefferson to flourish. The worse aspect of the trade and the addition of Love you haven't mentioned, but I can understand your dissapointment. It doesn't leave much playing time for Rhino. And as far as trading Al Jefferson, a Love/ Rhino front court would fare much worse. And Mike Miller? No Purpose? How about clearing out some room for Al Jefferson and helping his game mature? All teams have playoff aspirations and all teams need good shooters. I think Mike Miller will be a great addition to this team. I'm excited for this team. I think there are some great opportunities and I see no reason they can't compete and win 40 games next year. A lot will rely upon the improvement of Randy Foye and Rashad McCants, but I think that will happen.
RhinoLove (not verified)11:52am
Jun 30
Yes, FAT, by the standards of the NBA (the most athletic professional league in sports) Kevin Love is still fat. I applaud his weight loss, but the guy still is doughy. He has no definition in his upper body. Not to say he can't continue to shed the poundage, but you've got to be a little scared that he got that big in the first place. He is going to need to be in tip top shape to excel in the NBA given his height, reach and below avg. lateral quickness. You don't seriously think the Wolves has playoff aspirations this season do you? Mike Miller will be in his 30s and long gone by the time we are truly competitive. I would have so much rather gotten Kyle Lowry or another pick. Miller may help us eke out another 4-5 wins this year, but in the grand scheme of things, I fail to see how this helps...unless we can trade him to a contender.
APB (not verified)01:20pm
Jun 30
RL, I'd love to see a comparison study. I'm not sure enough to quote any study, but my guess is that NBA basketball players range from 9 - 15% body fat percentage (you have to throw out guys like Oliver Miller who was over 20%) when I was competing in sports (long distance running) my body fat percentage was 4.5%. I was considered Skinny. In fact, on most scales anything under 5% is considered dangerously unhealthy. About the only athletes under 5% are distance runners and competitive body builders. I am now, in my 40s and no longer running competitively and have a body fat in the nieghborhood of 12 - 15% depending on the season I am measuring in. Anyone who calls me fat is kidding. I'm no longer skinny, but I am a long way from fat. As I said before, its been shown that white guys CAN jump, but not Fat guys, let alone Fat white guys. Wim, The way to build a championship is one step at a time. I think McHale and the Wolves made a step in that direction in trading for Miller, if only for how much he will help Al Jefferson's game over the coming years. Miller's game lends itself to staying effective well past his thirties. Shooting a jump shot with a stroke like Miller is a real talent - it is OJay Mayo like talent only Miller has already demonstrated that he can do it in the NBA. I'm not saying that Mayo won't, but we got Miller and Love. And, RL, yes, I seriously believe they have playoff aspirations next year. You don't step on the floor if you don't. My belief is that they will hang in there till 2-3 weeks left in the season with possibilities of making the playoffs. If they are healthy at that time and they are on a roll, then, I say, much stranger things have happened before in professional sports, such as the Minnesota Twins success this year. I seriously believe Al Jefferson is the type of player who can lead a team to a championship some day, if he is surrounded by the right players. I don't know exactly who those individual players are, but Kevin Love, Mike Miller, Rashad McCants and Randy Foye is a nice start. Then, you have a bench with Jason Collins, Ryan Gomes, Corey Brewer and, possibly Sebastian Telfair (Or some other point guard). Its a nice roster to help figure out what Al Jefferson needs and there will be ample opportunities to address those specific needs in the future with free agents and draft picks.
RhinoLove (not verified)02:17pm
Jun 30
So Kevin Love, a 19 year old guy with a personal trainer, who gets paid to work out has the same body fat content as a 40 year old guy that spends his day posting on NBA blogs? Why is that not reassuring to me? :) Anyways, enough with the fat comments. We obviously have very different perceptions of the overall talent on this roster. I wish I could share your optimism, but I just don't think we have the guns (yet) to be in the mix. And I don't believe that AJ is or probably ever will be a top 5 player at his position (be it 4 or 5). I can't get my mind around the notion of building around around a two-tooled player like him. We just aren't good enough to be adding role players. We need a better core.
levi (not verified)06:49pm
Jun 30
RhinoLove wrote: > I don't believe that AJ is or probably ever will be a top 5 > player at his position (be it 4 or 5). Amen brother Love, I am in your choir. Shall we pray? Dear Lord, we pray that the weighty scales in the eyes of McHale may soon fall away and that we may then rejoice here along the frozen prairie - thy will be done. We pray that no one drinks the Kool-Aid concocted by McHale and his marketing department. We pray also that Glen Taylor's sight might also be restored and that he change his miserly ways so that someday the Timberwolves faithful might be rewarded with a team that can contend for at least a Western Conference semi-final. In the name of James Naismith and the Holy Peach Basket we pray, Let it be.
RhinoLove (not verified)08:39am
Jul 1
Good luck Levi. I've been banging this drum for the last year to little avail. Pro sports being what they are, it seems that every team has to at least pretend they have a superstar player on their team. I can stomach this for marketing purposes. No harm in duping the local fans a little so they stay interested, right? It becomes a problem, when you start believing your own bs, and making personnel decisions based on delusions like "Big Al is a budding superstar" and "Randy Foye is the point guard of the future". This is the crux of why I don't like the trade. I am not saying that Mayo is much, much better than Love. I am saying that the Wolves should have done more with the trade down than dump contracts and pick up a veteran role player like Miller. We need to strike some gold in the draft if we are ever going to become a good team again, and we needed to get more picks to get there. It is simply the fact that the #3 pick is a better asset than the #5 pick, and I don't feel that we got a great return on the swap. Again, that could change if we are able to turn Mike Miller into some (draft) lottery tickets down the road. But on the face of it, I don't like this deal.
Andy B (not verified)09:22am
Jul 1
RL and Levi, You both are absolutely correct about fans wishing that their local team has either a bona-fide or budding superstar on the roster. Fans must also disillusion themselves that the team they root for has a chance to compete sometime in the near future for a championship. The marketing department for local franchises plays a big part in creating this illusion. Unfortuneatly for the Wolves, their marketing has been attrocious. It has run much further behind from the talent they have managed to accumulate since trading KG. But, the events leading up to the trade of KG and KG's subsequent championship n Boston is bound to put the damper on any marketing campaign for a losing local team in the process of rebuilding. Actually, the above described scene caused such hopeles despair among most fans, of which you both represent the majority vs. the minority of commenters here who do see some talent that has mannaged to rekindle a fair amount of hope, that the trade of one promising player at what might be the height of trade value for his entire NBA career plus three veterans with contracts contributing to the hopelessness over the past couple years yielded two promising players, a backup center and an overpaid player with slightly better contract and this still was met with --- "McHale is an idiot intent upon destroying the franchise all by his lonesome." Marketing may have helped this result, but in the end, McHale just made too many wrong moves in the past to persuade the majority of fans who have built such resentment over the years towards him. I'm not going to spend my time defending the Wolves roster to people in such hopeless despair. It is they that have drank the koolaide for too long to believe what has slowly trasformed itself in front of them. They won't believe anything until the Wolves win a championship. Until then, McHale sucks. I also am only going to defend AL Jefferson by saying he already is one of the top 4-5 power forwards in the NBA statistically and he will win when their are better players surrounding him. But, again, this obvious fact will be disputed by those who were forced to believe McHale had assembled a squad around KG that would win a championship and until Al Jefferson wins an MVP award and leads his team to a championship he will be the two tooled chump who we got handed when we were swindled for the rights to the greatest power forward to play the game. I believe that Al Jefferson can lead the WOlves to a championship some day if he is surrounded by the right group of players. Do I seriously, believe this is a likely scenario? No more likely than Mike Beasley, David West, Greg Oden, or the best player on any other team in the NBA who has not yet achieved the level of champion. In a competitive league it is not likely. But, believing it possible is the only thing that keeps me interested. If the Wolves fall short, which they likely will as will most teams, then, just as I was able to maintain an interest in KG while he was chasing an unlikely possibility as a wolf, I will still strive to keep an objective view on which players were promising enough to keep my hope alive. Seeing Al Jefferson on the post last season in games we won and lost, make baskets while double and triple teamed when the Wolves had to have two points just to have a chance to win in the fourth quarter was enough to keep that hope alive in this basketball fans mind. Watching Corey Brewer miss jumpshot after jumpshot was not.
levi (not verified)11:04pm
Jul 1
Well, AndyB, I feel pretty confident in saying that the marketing department of any team has virtually no impact on my assessment of their talent level and expectations (or lack thereof) for their success. And I'm not just talking about the players -- I'm including owners, GMs, and coaches too.
APB aka (Andy B) (not verified)09:13am
Jul 2
From what I have read of your comments you seem like a knowledgeable fan to me. I just got the notion from your prayer post that you believed that anyone who felt that the Wolves have improved themselves with the draft and that thinks that Al Jefferson is a player worthy of building a program around must be drinking the koolaide of McHale and the marketing department. I don't believe that and think that anyone saying that has to be a disillusioned fan who has lost so much faith in the FO that even if they make a smart move they won't believe it until they see a championship. Until then the FO is a bunch of FUs. This seems to be the dominant view from folks I talk to and listening to KFAN, etc. However, the knowledgeable folks here and at blogs like Canis Hoopus seem to be of a slightly different persuasion and that confirms my view that the FO has actually made some smart moves in the KG trade and since.
drza44 (not verified)11:26pm
Jul 3
I'm jumping into this discussion way late, perhaps too late, as everyone may have moved on by now. But one of the big things that I noticed in the discussion between APB, Rhino and Levi is the difference between "player to build around" and "franchise superstar". It is a debate that I've been tangentially part of on other sites, and I ultimately tend to leave it be instead of hammering on it because at heart I'm an optimistic person and I know I could very well be wrong. Now, disclaimers aside... Big Al is an excellent low-post scorer and rebounder. He could absolutely be a 25/12 guy this year. He could be a leading player on a good team. But if he's your best player, your team probably isn't winning a title. For an offense featuring Big Al to be championship caliber it would require at least one elite playmaker at another position to be the true offensive engine make the offense efficient and get everyone else involved since Al is a bit of a black hole (in a good way). And Big Al's defense is also not championship caliber, which means that he wouldn't be the defensive anchor either. Big Al's upside on offense is Kevin Mchale, but he doesn't have Mchale's strong defense to pair with it. And even as a strong 2-way player, Mchale needed Larry Bird to be the engine that drove them to a championship. Bottom line: Big Al is a great young building block. But he's not the foundation. If you want to say that the Wolves are "building around him" that's fine, as he is definitely the best piece here, but in reality he needs to be part of the puzzle that is building around someone else. And it seems unlikely that that "someone else" is currently on the roster. So while I think this was a good trade, and I expect the Wolves to field a better team this year, they still need to be on the lookout to find their transcendant talent over the next couple of years before they get any real championship aspirations.
levi (not verified)07:49am
Jul 6
Nicely summed, drza44. I believe that a championship contending team can be built without overwhelming talent at any one position. But how that happens is that all five players on the floor have to work in concert, tirelessly setting screens to create space (especially off the ball), passing the ball, relentlessly blocking out on rebounding, and running hard. Plus defense -- team defense. You know what? On that list, I don't see anything that Al Jefferson really does. Nor do very many of the other Timberwolves on the roster play full-on team ball. Maybe Gomes, Madsen, and Smith. And possibly now, Kevin Love. When you think back to Detroit's most recent championships, that was the brand of ball they played. Same goes for San Antonio. This year, I thought that the Celtics did a great job on the "little things" and when they put it all together, it bordered on awesome (because with KG and a hot Ray Allen, Boston did have some overwhelming talent). But to pin your hopes on the low post offense of Al Jefferson (or worse, his defense) is worthy of ridicule. He's put up some nice "box score" numbers, but has yet to face truly motivated defense (who gets up for a 22-win team?) regularly, not to mention playoff level intensity. And has been noted here several times, the Wolves +/- stat was much better when he was NOT on the floor (caveats of small sample size and quality of opponents apply, but usually it's the other way around).
drza44 (not verified)04:29pm
Jul 7
This response is to what both Levi and Andy B wrote. Andy, you note an interesting phenomenon (and one that I've paid a lot of attention to this year), that people are so invested into their stance on the KG trade that many seem to have a bit of trouble differentiating between Big Al's and KG's actual values, and focus instead what Al/KG's values would have to be in order to validate their positions. This has happened a lot on both sides of the equation...you point out that some KG fans may not want McHale to be right about anything and therefore may not be fair to Big Al, while on the flip side there are many Wolves fans that have been very unfair when retrospectively valuing KG. Not so much on this blog, but on other message boards that I used to post on a lot I got so turned off for awhile by the hyperbole on both sides that I rarely had much to say this season. And before it seems like I'm casting stones let me point out that I'm guilty too. As much as I try not to, I'm sure that I'm such a big KG fan that my analysis can't be as unbiased as I'd like it to be. All of that said...both sides really do have a point, even if they may overstate it. I think the key way to meet in the middle is for both sides to take an accurate stock of the situation without emotion involved. The first key point to realize is that a) KG wasn't perfect, but b) that he was still a once-in-a-generation level player that is one of 3 or 4 guys that can legitimately be in the argument as the best player since Jordan. The point of this isn't to start an argument on KG's legacy, but instead to accurately gauge the Wolves' history when building the expectations for the future. Because many (read: everyone) use KG as the basis for defining Big Al, and that's just not fair to anyone involved. No matter how much he improves, Big Al will never be the best player of this generation nor (IMO) the best player on a championship team. And that's absolutely fine, because he can still be an All Star, All NBA big man that plays a big part on a championship level team. He was still good value in return for those that believe that KG had to be traded. But I think because we saw KG consistently carry mud ducks to 50 wins for almost a decade, many expect that Big Al can develop to do something similar. Especially those that see Al as a "real" big man that posts up on offense, and have convinced themselves that this is the easier way to build a championship than (again the comparison) KG's perimeter game. The reality is that scoring on offense is arguably the weakest part of KG's game, and he still does that at a higher efficiency than Big Al's more traditional low-post scoring. Which again is fine, because KG is a freak. So don't compare Big Al to him when judging the Wolves rebuild process...instead, compare Big Al to historic players from championship teams with similar strengths/weaknesses (i.e. Mchale). Instead, compare him to contemporary players that have had some success with a similar playing style (i.e. Boozer, Brand). And don't compare them in a "which is better?" kind of way, but instead look at the elements that those types of players required to succeed: a strong perimeter offensive engine outside of themselves to get the team involved (Bird, Deron Williams, or Sam Cassell (good but not championship caliber) respectively) AND a strong defensive anchor to build the defense around (Mchale himself + Parish, Kirilenko (not championship caliber), and Brand himself respectively). Over the past 20 years the adage that a championship requires multiple superstars has been broken (Olajuwon's Rockets), and even the truism that a championship requires a single superstar has been bent to the breaking point (Pistons '04, though Sheed would have been considered a Superstar in his Blazers days and can still be on any given night. But I digress). But one commonality of all 20 of the past champions has been at least one strong defensive presence (ideally in the paint). Big Al isn't that, and even if he improves a lot and moves into the correct position it is a stretch that he will ever become that. That is really the only thing that I would fault about the Love trade, if it is intended that Love/Al are the frontcourt of the future. Like Okur and Boozer, I just don't think that's a championship caliber frontline. So hopefully the Wolves eventually address that before they really start thinking title. But that's a long way off. In the meantime, I absolutely think that this current team could be a whole lot more competitive than they were last year. And I absolutely think that the Wolves could build a playoff team built around Big Al as the best player. And that can be fun to watch in the intervening years...but at some point they have to get their offensive engine superstar and/or defensive anchor, because as much as I admire his talents and work ethic I just don't believe Big Al can fill either role.
RhinoLove (not verified)08:39am
Jul 8
Drza44- Damn, you are good. As usual, I agree with everything that you say. I really like the AJ/ McHale comparison (as well as the Brand/Boozer comps). Although you warn against comparing these guys on a "who's better basis", the message should be clear...none of these three great players are going to get you within sniffing distance of a ring without some considerable talent around them. The question remains...how do the Wolves snare that transcendent, top flight talented player when the FO seems hell bent on short term improvement? Are we doing ourselves a long term disservice by acquiring veterans to help pull us out of the cellar? PS- I know it's only preseason, but Beasley had 28points in 26min last night, while playing with a cracked sternum. Is it too late to trade for him :)!?
Andy B (not verified)07:49am
Jul 7
Drza, I think that is a good take. I agree the Wolves and Big Al need something else to win a championship. Not only do they need another player or two, but Big Al has to grow as a player as well. What brings me into the discussion with a bit of a chip on my shoulder to defend BIg Al, is not a belief in his ability to carry a team on his shoulders, Hell, even KG couldn't do that by himself and his selfless play still requires having a superstar player or two on his roster next to him. What has me defending Big Al is demonstrated by LEvi below. He wants to point to weak points in Big Als game rather than his strengths and has the audacity to mention ridicule for those who defend a player who doesn't have the type of game of a team player such as Craig Smith. I won't go into ridicule here, since I think SMith is a nice player, but Smith, Gomes and Maddog as players worth building around? ENough said. As far as Jefferson not facing any defense yet, I think he arguably had a tougher job with opposing defenses than any other player in the NBA given the amount of offensive help he had on the roster. No one expects that he has faced playoff experience at this point in his career. All I am saying is not that BIg Al is an eventual elite NBA player with Champion written into his genes, I am saying that anyone writing him off as a player such as Levi extols below has biased by a hopelessness fueled by the front offices's past mistakes and a wounded heart pierced by the KG trade. They can no more root for big Al than they can root for Kevin McHale, since wishing for BIg Al's success validates McHale's trading of KG. It just can't be is these fans minds. THey look for the weakness's in young Al's game now and write him off as a me-first player who will never win. I see what you are saying and agree that Big Al's game has to improve and he needs someone who is a larger offensive threat than he is to succeed in the NBA. He needs to play better defense and he should when paired with a bigger player as a center. He needs to be a better passer and he should be when there are options to pass to. He should be able to demonstrate more of a complete game this year, but he will need another All star player on the roster to challenge him for the leading scorer on a nightly basis to take some of the offensive load off him. Gettign the Wolves deep into the Western conference will take an additional player or two to be added to the roster for sure, but you have to feel like the Wolves are taking the right steps to get there, so far.
midlife crisis (not verified)06:09am
Jul 2
Although Jefferson is a great offensive player and rebounder, the post players that led their teams to glory also played great defense. KG in boston wasn't only transformational for the culture, he also covered a tremendous amount of space. Statistically, he had his worst year in a long time, and still had the same frustrating unwillingness to dominate his defender, but he was the guy that got the Celtics there. Another way to look at this is that Ben Wallace won a championship but Karl Malone didn't. Jefferson has to help protect the rim or some good team will be able to take advantage of it. But I like the trade, and I kind of like our team now. We still don't have a PG, Love is still too small to play center, but we traded out 3 SG, and that alone will make this team easier to watch. The PG hole is still a problem. Without Telfair, Neitzel (an invitee for summer league) may be our best bet at having a real point guard. But I agree that a lack of PG (and the wins that come with it) won't diminish the joy of watching Jefferson catch the ball in good position and knowing that his defender has no chance of stopping him.
Andy B (not verified)09:05am
Jul 2
Midlife, I agree that defense wins champinships. I am not sold on the Love/Jefferson frontcourt as an eventual championship contending combo, yet. I definitely have my doubts, but there is no doubt it is an improvement on Jefferson/Gomes and I like that they have a defensive-minded 7' on the bench. Jefferson's defense also improved as the year went on. He is still a very young player and seems very coachable. He is much better defensively when guarding the PF vs. the Centers at this time. What the Wolves need is an assistant coach like Thibideau to coach defense and the young players have to buy into the concept of playing defense as a unit. It probably won't happen in one year, but I hope to see improvement next year. I would like to see them sign Telfair, but there seems to be a lot of possibilities for signing or trading for a good backup PG. I'm still willing to hand Foye the reigns for startign duites and see what he can do with it, so what we need is a serviceable backup who plays good defense and can spot start when needed. I think there are quite a few players out there fitting that description if we are willing to go get them.
RhinoLove (not verified)09:11am
Jul 2
No doubt Al Jefferson's offensive numbers put him in the top 5 of the league's PFs. But, he did that in the context of a 22(!) win season. He also had the 3rd worst +/- on the team (on an equalized 48 minute basis), behind only Bassy and Buckner. Putting up big numbers on a bad team means nothing, and it means even less when your team tends to keep the game closer when you are on the bench. Now, that said, I don't think Al Jefferson is a "chump". I think he is a very good NBA player, but one that does not play defense or pass the ball. These limitations, unless he can overcome them, keep him from being a true superstar-type talent that teams with legit title aspirations are built around. We either need one guy that is better than him, or two that are of equal talent (a la Detroit) if we are going to make a deep run in the next three-five years. Please don't confuse my realism for hopeless despair. I am as big of a Wolves fan as there is, but I won't let hope deceive my eyes and brain.
APB (not verified)10:03am
Jul 2
RL, No, I don't think you eyes and brain are being decieved by hope. I think they are being deceived by hopelessness. We can go around and around on numbers and stats. +/- on a 22 win team for the player playing the majority of minutes means very very little. Al Jefferson was playing on a young team with an inexperienced, unproven coach with players who were not scoring threats (Brewer), no center beside him, and where the second best player missed half a season. Calling him a two tooled player who will NEVER be good enough to be one of the 4 or 5 best player at his position at his age after what he did last year on a team surrounded by such ineptitude is just plain irrational. His defense and passing improved as the year went on and his scoring and rebounding did not suffer from his shift in emphasis in priority even as some of his teammates seem to regress as the season went on. Cendemning Al Jefferson for his team winning 22 games last year makes as much sense as condemning KG for never winning a championship in MN. We all should no better by now. It takes a team to win. Al can't do it by himself. He has better players going into next year. If the Wolves and Al's game regress next year with a healthy roster of improved and talented players around him, then I'll hop on your two-tooled assessment. But, I don't think any rational fan would believe that possible, only the disillusion and hopeless fan would.
RhinoLove (not verified)12:36pm
Jul 2
First of all that 3rd worst +/- stat is on an equalized basis, projecting every roster players numbers over 48min. The obvious flaw in the comparison is that Jefferson, as a starter, logs more minutes against the opponents best players. However, I would challenge you to find another top 10 PF/C in the league with worse +/- numbers than Al....either on an absolute basis or relative to the team's average +/-. These numbers are relevant, especially if you are going to cite Al's points and rebounds as "proof" that AJ is one of the top players at his position. These numbers help back up what I see on the court ...1) Al has a habit of making his defensive assignment look really good, and is either unwilling or unable to provide help defense 2) our ball movement tends to stagnate when we move into our "feed the ball to Al" offense, resulting in a lot less easy baskets. We both agree that the 22 win season is not Al's fault, and that he needs help. I guess I just think that he needs a lot more help than you do. Finally, is regression even possible?
Andy B (not verified)01:48pm
Jul 2
Yes, the obvious flaw. Al Jefferson was the only player on the Wolves roster opposing teams had to prepare for. Teams went big against the Wolves because Al didn't have a center to play against. When Al sat, opposing big men sat and guys like Smith and RIchards get a nice little boost to their +/-. The plus/minus is not a very useful stat for analyzing Al Jefferson's year if it is very useful for analyzing any player as a stand alone stat. Al's rebounds and ppg are much more revealing to the player he might be than last years +/-. But, enough with the +/-, we can agree to disagree. We can agree that 22 wins is not Als fault, but apparently you want to believe a stagnant offense is. You have Rashad McCants, Sebastian Telfair, Corey Brewer as the other options on offense to shoot the ball. One of those can shoot it (Rashad) but is known himself for holding on to the ball once it gets in his hands. The other post players are Chris Richards, Craig Smith or Ryan Gomes, all undersized and, with the possible exception of Gomes, not known for their off-ball movements and cuts. THen, the supposed second best offensive option sits out half the year and you have to spend the second half of the season getting used to playing with a different point gaurd (Foye) with different skills from the one you previously were playing with (Telfair). On the bench are two veterans that were not happy to be here (Ratliff, Walker and Jaric), and a couple more with diminishing skills and not known for their offensive contributions (Buckner and Maddog) and a guy who doesn't have a clue yet what the game of BBall is (Green). But, you want me to believe that a stagnant offense is a result of Al Jefferson, the only legitimate offensive threat on the roster. Okay.... I'm not citing numbers as proof of anything. All I said was that statistically he could already be considered one of the top 4-5 power forwards in the league. That is true. I fully understand he has to do more, however, to "prove" that he is one of the 4-5 best power forwards in the league. From what he has shown so far, I don't think there are any serious basketball fans around the league who follow all the players who do not think this is within his reach given his age and his production so far, as well as the trajectory his improvement has shown the last two years. You said, however, that he will NEVER achieve this status as he is two-tooled. I think the only people who could hold such a position hold not because of what they see with their eyes and analyze with their brain, but because of a deep resentment of McHale and the hopeless depair that accompanies it. That's my only way I can ratinalize it, because saying that Jefferson will never be one of the 4-5 best players in the league at his position based upon what he has achieved so far and the trajectory his career is on is just plain nots in my opinion. Sorry, but thats what it seems like to me.
APB aka (Andy B) (not verified)02:35pm
Jul 2
"And I don't believe that AJ is or probably ever will be a top 5 player at his position (be it 4 or 5). I can't get my mind around the notion of building around around a two-tooled player like him." Okay, you didn't say NEVER, but "Probably ever will a top 5", instead. My point remains that it still seems irrational to criticize the FO for deciding to build aroung Al and for the job they have done since in putting better players around him. They may not succeed, but it is WAY too early to declare that building around Al is a losing strategy. WIth his offensive skill set, I don't think any GM would consider Al Jefferson as the PF on their team with a talented 7' at the center spot, and offensive shooter and solid defending 2 and 3 and top tier PG surrounding him is a losing team in the future. The Wolves may not have found these players, yet, but they certainly have made some good steps towards achieving this goal. I could see not believing the Wolves can ever make the right steps in bringing this type of roster sto surround Al given their track record with KG and finding talent to surround him with. But, to start off the bat and criticize Al Jefferson and the notion of building around him after what he has shown so far and write him off as two-tooled - that is what seems niave and nuts to me.
RhinoLove (not verified)08:43am
Jul 3
The blog format does not promote subtlety in argument, and my quickly conceived posts are not helping either. I think my point has gotten lost somewhere along the way. So, let me rephrase it. I certainly am not trying to say that Al Jefferson is not a nice building block (though I don't see him as a superstar) or that the Wolves don't have a few other nice young players with significant upside (although realistically only 1-2 will probably be starting in the league in three years). I am saying that rebuilding a team is a long, slow process, that 9 times out of 10 requires some big luck in the draft. Unless your team is in a glamor market or possesses a brilliant and aggressive GM (not us obviously), getting good requires patience and pain. I would rather incur that pain now. Lose our games, give our young guys a lot of playing time, and get high draft picks. I don't think the Wolves have a strong enough core to be adding veteran role players. Too me, this is short term thinking. Guys like Mike Miller will help us win some games, and improve our record, but only to the point where we are getting worse draft picks. Do we really want to be one of those perennial bubble playoff teams winning 35-45 games? Yes it's improvement, but league history is riddled with teams that fall into this mode for 5-10 year stretches. I honestly fear we may be headed down this path, when we should be stockpiling picks and prospects (ie buying and trading for not selling and trading away) hand over fist. That is all I am saying. The situation is far from hopeless, but I am having some issues with our present approach.
APB (not verified)09:58am
Jul 3
I agree that it is long painful building process. I like Miller and not because he will be the key component to an eventual championship team. I like him because I think he can help the development of Jefferson and also get us some wins. I can't think of anything worse to the development of a talented young players competitive spirit than giving him no chance to win. Miller and Love give him that chance and I never though Mayo was going to be the superstar the Wolves might get lucky with. Possible, but I think Love has the exact same possibilities. Trading Mayo for Love and Miller seems like a no brainer to me. Adding to the trade Walker, Buckner and Jaric for Collins and Cardinal almost puts this trade in the same category of "GM redemption" as the Davis Blount trade for Doleac, Wlaker and Simione plus a first round draft choice that McHale managed to pull off last year. Does it make up for some bad draft picks in the past, inability to get players to surround KG, Smith fiasco, and other moves pre KG trade? I don't think it does, but its still two pretty amazing trades in a row in my opinion that continues the long slow painful process of rebuilding that began with the lop-sided trading KG for Al Jefferson (with Gomes, Telfair, and Green and 2 first rounders thrown in). I don't agree with losing for ping pong balls and better draft position, but I like the idea of accumulating draft picks. We have some disagreement that writing about on blogs tends to accentuate, but I agree that we are both big enough fans to care in the first place. Anyway, I need these discussions to get me through the summer, so thanks for that.
midlife crisis (not verified)07:28am
Jul 4
I completely agree about Al Jeff's deficiencies, but I don't think fielding (sorry, it's baseball season) a bad team is the way to make it to the promised land. Mike Miller is not just a role player, he's a really good player. Unless Love instantly fulfills all of McHale's expectations, Miller is going to be our second best player next year and probably for the next 3. And what does the draft do for a team? It's not just getting the top pick, but getting it at the right time. Even in the LeBron/Anthony/Bosh/Wade draft, is anyone besides LeBron a player that changes a team from crappy to contender? How many drafts produce something better than Jefferson? Even with his obvious deficiencies, at least we have one really good player. I don't think he's ever something that brings us to the next level unless he starts protecting the rim from penetrating guards, but he's definately not the problem on this team. The clippers had 8 consecutive lottery appearences, with 2 #4s, a 3,2 and #1 pick and it pretty much did squat for them. I can see the argument that if you win a title, then stinking for 5 years may be worth it, but what if you don't win a title? We're looking up at NO and Portland, two very young teams with much more talent than ours. I think it's as appropriate to say now as it was when we traded KG: the woofies picked the wrong time to stink. For me, I would rather watch a 40-50 win team locally (and I think that's possible in the 09-10 season) while watching the Blazers in June than looking at draft express starting in January of each year.
RhinoLove (not verified)07:46am
Jul 7
The Clippers are the worst case, but you also cite NO and POR as two young up and coming teams...why? I am guessing Chris Paul/West and Roy/Oden/Aldridge....all players these teams acquired via the draft (at least indirectly). The draft is, of course, a crapshoot. But, you can't win if you don't play. Portland, in particular, has thrown up a great model for rebuilding. They are consistently doing everything they can to add picks, and have now put together so much young talent and prospects that they have a ton of roster flexibility. I am not suggesting that we field a bad team. I am saying that we should build through the draft and play our young guys a lot. If our picks are poor, we lose, if they are good we win, and we don't need the draft anymore.
pagingstanleyroberts (not verified)01:19pm
Jul 1
Thinking they could've done better when swapping #3 for #5 is also somewhat delusional. There isn't a record of any team being able to pick up an all-star-caliber player simply by swapping two picks. The only time it's happened was when GS traded the #3 (McHale) and Robert Parish for the #1 (Joe Barry Carroll), one of the most lopsided trades in history mainly because of how much Parish improved as a Celtic and how much better McHale was than Carroll. The Clippers had to give up their #2 pick in a weak draft for Elton Brand; the Wizards had to give up their #5 to get Antawn Jamison. Neither team got a high pick back with the player. As for Miller being a role player -- yes, he might be, but if so, he's one of the best role players in the league. A good comparison would be Peja Stojakovic, who's probably the 4th-best player on the Hornets but is probably the third option on offense on a really good offensive team. There's a difference between a role player like James Posey (who's a really good one) and a role player like Miller who has won a Sixth Man of the Year award. He might not make an All-Star team, but he would've been the sixth man on probably all of the conference finalists and started for most of the rest of the playoff teams. He's the type of player who could be the second option here and then take a step back if other players assert themselves.
KGdaBom (not verified)12:44pm
Jul 6
I don't get these people who keep trying to call Miller a role player. He is arguably the best shooter in the NBA and is an excellent rebounder. That is not a role player. If we want a lottery draft pick for him all we have to do is pick up the phone and make a call. He is not old and is the kind of player that any team that has aspirations of going far in the playoffs would kill for. So we got both a killer player for us now and a very highly tradeable commodity. Miller is the best player in the trade right now and could very easily be the best player in the trade down the road. Mayo or Love is 50/50 that either of them will ever be better than Miller is right now.
pagingstanleyroberts (not verified)07:53pm
Jun 30
After reading all of the comments on this thread, I think there are a couple of things to keep in mind. First, many people with more knowledge and experience watching basketball and particularly these two players think that Love can be as good or better than Mayo. There's no way of knowing this for sure right now, but just because it's uncertain doesn't mean that that favors Mayo. The people who like Love as a player aren't being naive homers; they're going off of scouts' opinions and detailed stats. The reason the Wolves made this trade was because they don't think Love is a role player; they think he'll be an impact player. The addition of a role player doesn't lead to some people writing that the Wolves could have a great offensive tandem inside. Love can already shoot college 3's, rebound, pass, score in the post, and play center for one of the best defensive teams in college basketball, and he matches up at least decently, measurement-wise, with very good players like Boozer, West, and Horford. Why should it be held against West and Boozer that other NBA teams were stupid enough to pass on them? In addition, there's as much of a possibility that Mayo turns out to be as good as a guy like Miller as there is that he turns out to be as good as Dwyane Wade. One of the reasons people have praised this trade is because of the possibility that Mayo won't be much or any better than Miller (one of 10-15 guys to finish in the top 50 in points and rebounds last year), which means that the Wolves might have received two really good players for the price of one. Second, teams become good through having talented players who fit together. The Wolves didn't fit that well together last year, yet they still finished fairly well after the first 40 games. If they've added more size, which was a weakness, more offensive talent, which was a weakness, and have a more balanced roster, why wouldn't they win at least 10 more games? That, in turn, would make their younger players more valuable, keep them eligible to keep the Clipper pick, and give them 2-3 draft picks plus the young players and expiring contracts they already have for possibly getting better players. A team can trade two decent players for one good player and/or two good players for one All-Star. Every player on an NBA team has value to someone; think about how many guys the Wolves have traded in the past two years that were considered unwanted by other teams.
pagingstanleyroberts (not verified)06:43pm
Jun 30
Two things. First, you should read the combine measurements for all of the drafted players. Kevin Love's lateral quickness was in the top 10 of all players drafted, ahead of Derrick Rose, Jerryd Bayless, DJ Augustin, and pretty much every big besides Beasley. He was also faster than Beasley, DeAndre Jordan (a supposedly freakish athlete), and Anthony Randolph. Along with that, he did more bench press reps than everyone drafted except Sean Singletary, Joey Dorsey, Beasley, DeVon Hardin, and Joe Alexander. Who cares if a player has "defined" muscles? This isn't a bodybuilding contest. I have questions about him too, but know the facts before making evaluations. As for Miller, why wouldn't he be around? As long as he doesn't want another $9 mil/per, there's a good chance he'd stay because he's a local kid who loved MN sports when growing up and is friends with other MN athletes. If he doesn't want to be back, why couldn't they trade him before his contract expires for something? He's the type of player who'd fit with a lot of contenders. Also, if they'd taken Lowry instead of Miller, that would've meant not including one of the big contracts they traded in the deal.
Andy G (not verified)08:24pm
Jun 30
The combine results are interesting. Nobody thinks Love is quicker than Rose & Augustine, but they are evidence that he's more athletic than expected. We'll get a much better understanding of his quickness if and when he tries guarding athletic small forwards like Rudy Gay and Tracy McGrady. Although if McHale & Wittman's pre-draft comments are any indication, it's his vertical that will be put to the test while he mans the center position. So, I guess we can just hope that his mega-hops can slow down the Duncans and Howards of the league. As for the "slow, fat, white guy..." stuff, I think the people making those comments are basing them more on his season at UCLA and less on his more toned physique at the pre-draft camps. There's no question that he was pudgy in college, but also that he lost weight and looks more athletic. The reasonable questions that some are asking is whether he can keep that weight off, and how it will affect his game if he does or doesn't.
midlife crisis (not verified)11:20pm
Jun 30
To be optimistic about it, there's more changes that can happen in his body than just losing a little fat. Anyone who remembers the Clem Haskins gophers remembers how muscular the front court players became over their years hear. Love is still young, and it's not just losing fat that is likely to happen. Without being a very competetive athlete (cross country skier), I grew 2 inches and gained 20 pounds of muscle while maintaining 7% body fat. Love is still just a really athletic kid with some surprising basketball skills. If he could grow strong enough to defend (or at least push) the 5 spot, we could have a nice offensive front line that wouldn't be a disaster on defense. It would even be a 3 man rotation for the future if we get the European guy when Collins' is not longer servicable. Not to be completely rose colored, butwWIth Miller playing the type of game that ages well, we start to look like we're solidifying a few spots on a good team (if only we didn't have to play any guards). Truly, if Mayo took a few years and then started putting up the numbers that Miller puts up, he would have been considered a good pick at number 3.
Anonymous (not verified)12:18pm
Jul 6
I can't take this thinking that Miller was not a great player to get in the deal. How freaking young do you want our team to be. Miller is basically young. 28 years old and a sharp shooter. He should be able to play at a high level until he is 35 and possibly longer. He isn't just a shooter either as he is an excellent rebounder. Those people thinking we should have a team full of under 25 year old players that is a recipe for disaster.
Wim (Belgium) (not verified)11:56am
Jun 30
APB. Most people probably see the 40 win thing happening the real question is, what's the use of winning 40 games if it doesn't give you a chance to win a championship. I think that is the biggest concern. The ones of us that don't (or didn't, like me) like the trade, don't like it because it doesn't (on first sight) bring us further down the path of becoming a championship team in the future. It improves us, no question about that, but on first sight most people don't see how it fits into the rebuilding plans of becoming a championship team down the road. Though if you look at it thoroughly, shedding all those bad contracts gives us a lot of cash in 2011, the biggest free agent market in the near future. As somebody has already pointed out, we could go all out for someone like Tyson Chandler, so even tough we didn't get any young guys know, we will have lots of money in 2011 to see what the final gaps are and we can just pick up whom we thinks will fill the gaps. So it's a good trade after all. @Levi You say you wouldn't start Love and Jefferson together. Although I agree it's not a perfect situation on defense. What would your frontcourt rotation be? Would you start Collins? Jefferson+Gomes? That's even smaller so .. whom would you start?
levi (not verified)01:30pm
Jun 30
Who would I start? IMHO it's too soon to think about because the Wolves need to get the 5-hole filled with someone not named Al Jefferson, Kevin Love, Chris Richards, or Mark Madsen. For openers, I'd resign Doleac tomorrow (barring something I don't know about). I'd try to trade Collins or Richards packaged with McCants and every draft pick for the next two years to get a servicable center -- as if anyone is giving them away for junk like that. Then, I'd be looking for a free agent center. When training camp opens, I'd see what's what, and who's who, and let you know.
APB (not verified)02:06pm
Jun 30
Why isn't Collins a servicable center? Seriously, although I would have thought Doleac was serviceable before he rarely came of the bench for the Wolves last year, I would think Collins is more serviceable than that. I mean, he isn't that old and he started off so well with New Jersey. I would think he has some attributes to bring to the game. I'd like someone more serviceable, but, frankly servicable long centers are not that easy to come by. Who would you target with McCants and Collins?
Wolf in MO (not verified)04:03pm
Jun 30
While Collins as a "serviceable" center may be debated here, he has started full time with the Nets a couple of years ago (2003-2007 70+ gp & gs) and had serviceable numbers from a team that seemed to run and shoot a lot. His FG% is far below what I would consider decent for a 7 footer, but his presence on defense should alter the opponents more than Jefferson/Love. That being said, what kind of odds are out there that we could persue Okafor? Here is a kid (26) that averages 14 & 10 on a below average Bobcat team. 2 blk/g also couldn't hurt. What kind of a deal could be worked out for him??
Wim (Belgium) (not verified)04:15pm
Jun 30
Anyone can contradict me on this one but if I'm right the chances are 0.1%. We already resigned some of our free agents and are, Telfair or someone else, getting a PG. Getting okafor requiers a lot of money that we don't have because of the cap thingy so it would only work with a sign and trade. That's reeeeeeeeeaaly far fetched. Look for the wolves to try to resign Telfair for somewhere 1-2 mil for 1 year. This will give him another chance to prove himself, if he does good he might get a longer deal next year, if he doesn't, we find someone else. If somebody else offers him more money, I don't know how he feels about Minny, might have some sympathy because of the fact that he got a chance here, might not like it here because of the typical reasons (small market, weather, bla bla). So then we'll get some other temp PG for just one year and see what's next. Don't think they're going for anything else than a Backup piont this summer. Also, hope I'm not running ahead with starting the free agent debate here already.. If I am, you can delete this post :)
levi (not verified)10:50pm
Jun 30
One guy who has come a long way is Samuel Dalembert, in Philly. Unfortunately, other than Iguodala and Andre Miller, Sam's about all the quality that the Sixers have, so it might be tough convincing them to part with him. He's also getting paid a lot, so we'd have to throw another player in with Collins and McCants -- Brian Cardinal comes to mind. Maybe a verrrry persuasive fellow could make a deal that hinges on the Wolves sending two veteran big men (Collins, Cardinal) to help bridge the gap until Philly's other young big man prospects (Jason Smith, Marreese Speights, and Herbert Hill) develop. RealGM.com shows us that Collins+Cardinal for Dalembert meets the Collective Bargaining Agreement salary matching rules, but the Sixers take on some salary. Adding McCants adds too much salary, McCants might fit right into Philly-ball, so I'd try to get the Sixers to throw in PG Louis Williams to balance out the deal as well as help address the Wolves lack of depth at PG. The Sixers made Williams a qualifying offer the other day, though, and they really don't have depth at PG either. Sayyyyyy.... seen any flying pigs lately?
midlife crisis (not verified)11:24pm
Jun 30
I agree that it would need to be a pretty good persuader to get that deal done. Offhand, I'm thinking Luca Brasi might do the trick.
levi (not verified)11:29am
Jun 30
Nice research on the size, but we must remember that Boozer lists a 266 lbs, West (and Wallace ) at 240lbs. Love lists at @255, but most say should lose 20+ pounds, so he will likely be a little light in the pants no matter what position he plays. One of the critical "measurements" that I've seen is hand size. You may remember that Christian Laettner had relatively small hands and he had trouble holding onto the ball in traffic because of it. I was really amazed by Rajon Rondo's hands this year -- the dude looked totally comfortable holding the ball with one hand dangling at his side. I don't have a handle on Love's grasp yet. Anyone? But a pair (of hands) like Laettner's will doom him in the NBA's painted area. Over the long haul, I discount vertical leap. The NBA season just wears a body down. For example, KG has lost most of his, I haven't seen him win a jump ball in a long time, where he never used to lose any of them. On the other hand, the standing reach can help overcome a slight height disadvantage. Unfortunately, we see that Love is a couple inches shy of Boozer and West.
Ray M (not verified)11:32am
Jul 2
In order to beat those huge Western Conference teams, the Wolves (or any other smaller team) will need to have 4 shooters on the floor who can also rebound. Love can shoot the three, rebound, and he is a great athlete. Miller is perhaps the best shooter in the NBA and he lead his team in rebounds last year. The Wolves bigs are on the short side of big but Jefferson can score against even the best (and biggest) defenders but now he is surrounded by guys who can shoot. I would love to see a great center next to Jefferson at PF, but that's not going to happen. Mayo is obviously a better shooter than Love, but he's not going to be better than Miller. One of the best things about those two guys are that they will make Corey Brewer such a better player. Love's passing will get him plenty of open looks from three and plenty of uncontested layups. Its just too bad we don't have DeAndre Jordan waiting in the wings...
Paul (ikrushlots) (not verified)12:47am
Jul 3
Ben Wallace was a beast before Rasheed got to there. His two best rebounding and block seasons were pre-Wallace. Big Ben's numbers were already declining in Detriot. It was obvious age and injuries were taking a toll. This is the reason an astute GM like Dumars was willing to let him go, while a knucklehead like Paxon took on an aging player who was showing signs of wear and tear. Had nothing to do with who he was playing with.
Stop-n-Pop (not verified)09:30am
Jul 1
I think there's something that is missing from all the discussion about the Love/Mayo trade. Let me ask a question: Q: What was the most important part of the Wolves' 2007/08 season? A: A coin flip. Had they not won the draft coin flip with Memphis, we'd be discussing the relative merits of a Kevin Love pick at #5 in this thread. Since they did win the coin flip, we're talking about Mike Miller, Kevin Love, future cap space, and the fact that the team got rid of Marko Jaric and Toine. Forget OJ Mayo, a coin flip turned Kevin Love into Kevin Love, Mike Miller, and a 2010 free agent run. Who says the Wolves don't get lucky?
Wolf in MO (not verified)12:38pm
Jul 2
Thanks SNP I HAD forgotten that memory. As of right now, I still like the trade for the future. Since all of us gathered here KNOW that we are not contending for a championship next year, we should be glad to get rid of some dead wood and get some decent players back. So lets look at our current (non free agent) roster and see if we can improve on last year... because if you're not improving, you losing ground... 22 Corey Brewer F-G 6-9 Brian Cardinal F 6-8 Jason Collins C-F 7-0 4 Randy Foye G 6-4 25 Al Jefferson C-F 6-10 Kevin Love ** C-F 6-10 35 Mark Madsen C-F 6-9 1 Rashad McCants G 6-4 Mike Miller G-F 6-8 Nikola Pekovic ** C-F 6-11 I do not see them hanging on to Cardinal too long, unless he becomes the player that got him that big contract to begin with. I may be buying into the koolaid that the front office is selling, but I really would like to see a starting lineup of Foye,Miller,Love, Jefferson and Collins. Is it intimidating? No, but we are larger and may even play better defense. Yes I know, with all the comments I've seen this team wouldn't play ANY defense. Is this team better than the one we had last year, though, and can it lead to some interesting trades/picks? I would like to see Pekovic play and if he "tests" out as well as it sounds, that would give us a big presence in the middle that scores & defends. I would also like to qualify Jeffersons defense last year with the fact that he was guarding the C most of the time and no matter how quick he is, it just doesn't match up well with large, strong centers around the hoops ( eg: Shag-Fu) There is my unqualified, very amateur, analysis.
levi (not verified)09:34am
Jul 3
A few years ago, Roland Beech of 82games.com, discovered that Brian Cardinal's "intangibles" gave him an outstanding +/-, especially considering his salary at the time. He got a big free agent contract with Memphis, which became one of the "absolute worst contracts" as his production fell off the map and he became a bench warmer. You can bet that's why he is only talked about as a "great locker room guy". After Roland touted him, I tried to watch him as much as possible -- to tell you the truth, I didn't see anything particularly encouraging about his play. Basically, I think he's gonna be just another millstone around the neck of the Wolves -- no one is going to trade for him. And let's be real, I doubt that the Wolves would have traded for him if they weren't trying to unload Jarics so desperately. As far as Pekovic goes, I sincerely believe that we will never see him in a Wolves uniform, and probably never in the NBA. It's just McHale hoping to land a lucky shot. The good news (for him) is that it doesn't cost Glen Taylor a dime -- unless you consider "opportunity cost". "Let's Build It Together" - what that fine slogan from the Wolves marketing department really means is: "Give us your money so that we can line our pockets while we squander all of our opportunities to build a decent team". Am I harsh? Yes. The teams biggest needs were (and have been for years) servicable centers and point guards. Have you seen evidence of the Wolves trying to acquire any, via draft or free agency? I think not.
Wolf in MO (not verified)10:12am
Jul 3
You are correct in that they do continually need PG & C's, but my question is why they don't use what they had. My example is Walker & Theo Ratliff. Now in Theo, there was a completely serviceable center, but yet it seems to me like he never played. I know he was injured at the beginning of the season, but even afer he came back, he didn't play much. I don't remember him ever saying he wanted out, yet the wolves bought him out and he winds up playing pretty well for Detroit, albeit in a back up position. Why did the Wolves not use him like that?? Then Walker was b*&^%ing about not playing and the wolves refused to buy him out. Can anyone explain all the logic that was involved in those two moves/nonmoves, or am I just too far away to hear all the murmers?
stop-n-pop (not verified)12:56pm
Jul 3
We have a few Pekovic YouTubes up over at Hoopus and the first thing that pops to my head in watching them is this: Why would a young Euro with any kind of talent want to play in the NBA? From language and cultural issues to the increased fandom brought about by club play to the weak dollar, I don't know why people like Pekovic, Fernandez, Splitter, Rubio, and Gasol would even consider coming over here. I get that the top end contracts in the NBA make it worthwhile for the best of the best and that even guys like Krstic and Pekovic can increase their earning potential if they are drafted in the 2nd round, but I think the gap between the NBA and the EuroLeague, at least in terms of incentive to play, is rapidly decreasing in the minds of above average European talent.
Andy G (not verified)03:07pm
Jul 3
I don't know anything about the Euro labor agreements (if they even have such things) but I'd guess that Euros look at Tim Thomas, Theo Ratliff, Vince Carter, Stephon Marbury, and many others and see an opportunity to lock in $30-100 million, only a small percentage of which they'll actually have to earn. The NBA players have a really favorable agreement, with the only exception being the rookie pay-scale that is dwarfed by NFL 1st Rounders (which apparently might get changed in the next CBA negotiation).
Paul (ikrushlots) (not verified)09:51pm
Jul 3
It's was pretty much a given that any team picking 1st in the second round was going to pick Pekovic. What are you basing your "belief" on.
pagingstanleyroberts (not verified)04:31pm
Jul 4
As for Pekovic, he wouldn't have been in so much demand if teams didn't think he'll eventually come over. That "belief" is probably based on less information than what the Wolves have from Pekovic and his agent. Why would he apply for the draft if he didn't want to come over? I know someone mentioned a quote, but if that's the case, cite the quote; don't just bring up "I heard that...". That's not proof. As for serviceable centers, you might not believe this, but I think Collins is a serviceable center; look up how many playoff starts he has. That means something. Mark Blount, despite being a head case, is a serviceable center. Rasho Nesterovic and Marc Jackson were serviceable centers. Ervin Johnson was a serviceable center. For me, being "serviceable" means being capable of starting for a playoff team. All of the guys listed did that. Teams don't need more than one true center in their rotation anymore.
front-officelackey (not verified)10:45am
Jul 6
would you include stanley roberts in the "serviceable" category? i kid, i kid. i think it's funny, when people were touting kg's defensive prowess over the last few years, they brought up his league-leading defensive rebounding as a key stat. if kevin love boxes out well, doesn't that qualify as defense? if he takes charges and positions himself as well as those other "serviceable" guys at center -- he's gonna be fine. it's not as if his game is built on jumping over people for rebounds and slashing for highlight reel material -- stromile swift, chicago's thomas, tyson chandler, dwight howard fit that bill off the top of my head. if love is serviceable on defense and more than that on rebounding, is that enough?
pagingstanleyroberts (not verified)03:03pm
Jul 7
I think it counts. The strange thing is that they've never had a great center, yet it didn't matter when they had a system that worked and players who bought into it. Even Roberts platooned with Cherokee Parks during their second playoff year. The main thing was protecting the paint, playing off of the scorers, and defensive rebounding. Obviously, KG was a big help to whoever was playing with him.
levi (not verified)12:27pm
Jul 7
I was reading several articles re draft prospects and articles on him -- I didn't bookmark the references, sorry. My conclusion that it's a very long shot that Pekovic will come to the NBA, and thus wasted draft choice for the Wolves that they can ill-afford. Other teams, e.g. the Celtics, can afford to gamble on a player that won't be available for two years. I sincerely hope that I am wrong and that the Wolves do obtain the services of a bona fide center.
Courtside (not verified)01:52pm
Jul 4
Since this is public information now, having been posted in its entirety on the espn board, I thought we might as well throw some more fuel on fire. It's purportedly an email response from Assistant GM Jim Stack to a disappointed Wolves fan. I can't vouch for its authenticity, but it seems believable to me. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- First of all thanks for your concerns regarding what we did on draft night. I can assure you I understand how important it is to have fans who are passionate. I would like to address your concerns in the order you presented them if that is good with you. Regarding getting Jaric included in the deal with Memphis, this was an extremely important step for us to put us in a position to be cap fluid in two years. Our near term goals are to make the team as competitive as possible right now so we will be attractive to free agents over the next two years. Because I am in contact with all the other teams in the league all the time and many of them are eyeing the free agent market as well, I felt if we could move Jaric now it would be something we needed to do based on cleaning our books up for 2010.Getting Jaric's third year off our books without having to take back a similar contract really sets up our future. To get Miller and Love included and a backup center in Collins really addresses the needs we had going into the draft. Cardinal brings experience as well as perimeter shooting and is a great locker room presence. Regarding Buckner and Walker being bigger assets because of 11 million in expiring contracts I respectfully disagree with you.In talking to teams around the league it was clear to me that we would have to include one or possibly two of our young players in any deal with Walker involved to maybe have a chance at taking on a player who probably has underachieved with his previous team. I have studied the market very carefully as this is part of what I do and it is a real gamble to wait back and hope a Gasol type deal presents itself like what happened for the Lakers. I believe because of the backlash that deal received for Memphis, teams will not be willing to trade an asset of Gasol's caliber unless they are really holding you up in terms of what they get back. Coupled with the fact that Antoine was becoming a distraction in our locker room with Al Jefferson using Al to push for playing time for himself. Buckner was a pro in every sense of the word.In order to get Collins who I think has shown he can play as he has been on some playoff caliber teams as a starting center, it was a deal I felt like we had to make. It gives us flexibility with our roster to play big when the need arises. Collins is also a great guy and will fit in well with the culture we are building. I understand clearing cap money does not guarantee we will sign a star but as we move forward with our team Al Jefferson will be a star.Mike Miller is an elite level shooter who is in the prime of his career and can start or come off the bench as demonstrated by his sixth man of the year a few years back. Kevin Love is the most skilled big man in this draft by far and at 19 years old has a really bright future.He will make everyone around him better and he is a winner. Randy Foye it's a shame he got injured last year but he is one-hundred percent healthy and showed me down the stretch of the season he has a chance to be really good. Corey Brewer can defend elite wings right now in our league and as his shooting develops he will be a really good role player for us.So as we move forward I think our team has a chance to dramatically improve and be very attractive to free agents the next couple of years.Walker and Buckner were instumental in helping us get Miller and Love and Collins. Adding Jaric to be cap fluid was a very important add on. Regarding Al and Kevin Love playing together at 4 and 5, I think you have to realize that whether Al is listed as a 4 or a 5 he will draw the other team's best low post defender. What Kevin brings is a guy because of his skill set who can step out and shoot and pass and rebound. He can also post and dribble drive and will be defended by the weaker of the other team's low post players. They fit together very well on offense and I am really excited to see that evolve next season. On the defensive side Al made a bigger commitment down the stretch of last year to be a basket protector as demonstrated by his shot blocking. Kevin is an early help player who understands team defensive schemes and will take charges and is very physical.All of these traits will translate at the defensive end. The league has downsized overall upfront with the exception of a few teams where I think having Collins will give us the ability to play bigger when we need to.I can assure you we will not be getting destroyed down on the blocks with Big Al and Kevin.In fact I think it will be the other way around. Regarding trading the pick at # 34 in the draft, we did not have the Memphis deal until after that pick was made. A few other thoughts for your consideration.Chalmers played mostly the off guard at Kansas. They had Russell Robinson and Sherron Collins as their main ballhandlers.While Chalmers did play some point he was primarily a defender and scorer for the Jayhawks last year and at 6'1" is a very undersized two guard who showed some ability to play the point in certain situations. The other important point to consider is that being a rookie in the NBA next year at a position that he only played part time and is the most difficult position in the league to learn, there will defeinitely be a long learning curve for him to adjust to playing this position on a more full time basis. I think you saw that last year with Telfair who has been a point guard his whole life where there were some real growing pains for him before he found his groove and started playing better down the stretch of the season. In my view there are other avenues for us to pursue to find a more accomplished experienced point guard than Chalmers.I do not think we are in a position to wait on a player who has not played the position full time and who will be a rookie next year. Telfair was in the league three years before we got him and he still had a very difficult adjustment period last year and still needs to upgrade his shooting before we can consider him to be a bonifide part of our core moving forward. Regarding there being no reason not to have the Memphis deal done prior to the draft,that is a difficult one for me. We had to have Miller in the deal and have Jaric in the deal for us to consider doing it and Memphis did not budge until we were midway into the second round. This in my mind would not have affected what we did in the second round at 34 anyway.We got the best big man in Europe at 31 and for me I did not feel it would be prudent to add two more rookies to our team this year.We will have Pekovic in two years and he is already a player who can come in and play for us. I generally put rookies into three categories. Projects,prospects and players. Peckovic is a player. Chalmers is between a project and a prospect because he is not s natural point guard. Chris Douglas Roberts is a prospect in my view because he has a natural ability as a scorer but my feeling is that he is nowhere close to Miller,McCants, or Brewer in terms of fitting into our team and having a chance to supplant one of them.Being a rookie is another hurdle for him to overcome and he will have to go through a lot of the growing pains that McCants and Brewer have alreadty been through.McCants while he knows he must get better defensively, really seemed to find his niche coming off the bench for us last year.He averaged 15 points in just under 27 mpg and also shot almost 41 percent from the three point line which was in the top five percentage wise in the league among players with more than four attempts per game. I can assure you James a lot of ground work was layed leading up to the draft to position the deal we did with Memphis but we needed Memphis to be a participant and they did not feel it was something they could do until we worked a couple more angles which I cannot get into. DeAndre Jordan is a project in my view meaning he has not one discernible NBA skill at this point in time. Getting Pekovic who can step on an NBA floor right now and be productive was a much better option for us than Jordan. We will have a player who in two years can step in and play for us.With Jordan I did not like his profile. He has some red flags in terms of desire and work ethic that were of concern to me to go along with his underdeveloped skill level. We also received two second round picks for 34 and a hefty sum of cash which will help us in adding players to our team in the future. Please be assured we in the front office are always discussing the type of team we want to have that will give us our best chance to compete for a championship My view is that we want players who come from winning programs who are very competitive by nature and who want to play in Minnesota and be a part of what we are building.As far as style of play we want to be a team who can play inside out and play a power game through Al Jefferson in the post while putting periimeter shooting around him to make teams pay for over commiting to him. Getting Miller and Love not only upgrades our shooting but also gives us two team guys who are excellent passers and guys who have high basketball IQ's.We want to play uptempo when the opportunity presents itself but I believe we have the type of team that can also sit in the half court and make things happen with Foye, Jefferson,McCants,Miller, Gomes as focal points Defensively our challenge is to collectively play as a unit. We have to play team defense.This involves trust and effort which I believe we will get effort and having the same core of guys back will help our continuity and build more trust.Building momentum and confidence by everyone being on the same page will be a challenge for our coaches to make sure they are teaching our players properly and staying consistent with their message. As for O.J.Mayo I feel he will be a solid pro.He is undersized a little at the two guard being only a shade over 6'4" and about 195. Mayo is a shot maker who can defend and brings some versatility in terms of playing both backcourt spots.However in my view he does not have what we call blow by speed to get by people off the dribble and was not very effective getting to the foul line. He does not turn the corner consistently off the dribble and was turnover prone at times when he forced the issue. I was content with him because of his shooting and defense and he has a great work ethic but he can be over run physically at the off guard spot. To me when Memphis came back to us with the Love/Miller deal it filled too many holes for us to pass up. To add Jaric in was icing on the cake as it really sets the table for us moving forward into free agency the next couple years. In closingI hope I have addressed some of your concerns.We take everything we do here very seriously I certainly value your support and hope you will stay the course with us.It will be an exciting time for us as move into the future. Sincerely, Jim Stack
jesse (not verified)02:51pm
Jul 5
Well... One thing I don't like about what he is saying is about Pekovic being ready now, and we wait 2 years of uncertainty. If he comes over and produces then I guess I will be eating crow. Also, CDR not fitting into our team? What kind of team do we have that he wouldn/t be a good fit for? I mean, he's (Stack) insinuating that we have some sort of team ideology or some style of play in place already. Really...what kind of team are we now--that he wouldn't fit into? From all I can tell we don't really have a type of offense, we don't have a set type of defense either. We're not offensively loaded nor do we have great defenders. Though I do think Love is now becoming more appealing to me. He has decent height and at 19 years old, he still has room to grow. He may grow another inch or 2 by the time his rookie contract is up. Still, our perimeter defense is horrid, and because of that it puts a lot of stress on the guys up front who aren't good defenders either. Guy come in late, draw fouls or just easy straight to the hoop lay ins for the opposing team. If we learned anything from last years playoffs, it's that teams that have solid/strong/good/great defense go deeper in the playoffs than teams who don't have it. All the teams in the playoffs had scoring capability, but few had the defensive tenacity of the Celtics and that to me is what put them on the podium holding up the Larry O'Brien trophy.
Jason Zeaman (not verified)09:13pm
Jul 6
Wow, I didn't think that was a real letter from Stack until I was halfway through it and it seemed like it contained too much insight to not be real...or the work of an amazingly good hoax artist. I agree with everything he wrote about Mayo and Chalmers. I'm a little sad that the people who were SO upset when the trade first happened because of losing those two will not remember how they felt in 4 years when Chalmers is a bench player (at best) and Mayo is a solid, not spectacular 2 guard.If only our discussion thread aliases could carry our lifetime worth of posts so we could know who said what when. :-)
stop-n-pop (not verified)08:40am
Jul 7
I'll put my name down in the Chalmers column. When the team is in December with Blake Ahern coming off the bench for Shaddy at the point when Foye goes down for 5 games and the Wolves lose to a Heat team led by a PG duo of Bassy and Chalmers...well, I promise not to say "I told you so." Chalmers was a swing and a miss if only for the fact that they had a league minimum backup for a single year.
Jason Zeaman (not verified)12:53am
Jul 8
You're right in that the Wolves will probably be in a spot this year where they could have used Chalmers. But that's 20/20 hindsight. Chalmers wasn't Chalmers on draft night when the trade was made, he was just the #34 pick in the draft for a team that had alot of youth + Jaric and Buckner. It's only after the Memphis trade that the team misses that pick and that isn't something they could have known. In order for the trade of the #34 pick to be really bad Chalmers or Jordan or one of those picks around there would have to become a really solid starter and I feel comfortable betting that won't happen.
stop-n-pop (not verified)07:22am
Jul 8
Well, I'll continue to say what I've said before: he'll be starting in Miami by the end of the year and he'll do it by excellent perimeter shooting, not turning the ball over, and solid perimeter defense. In no way, shape, or form is this 20/20 hindsight. If they were working the Love trade (and from the Memphis Commercial Appeal timeline, they were), they should have had a backup plan at the point from the get-go. Here's hoping they worked out a sign-and-trade deal with Memphis with Smith for Lowry.
APB (not verified)07:29am
Jul 8
What about Stack's contention that Chalmers is really an undersized off guard with limited experience as a PG in college? If this is true, it certainly demonstrates why he slipped to #34. I'm thinking he sounds a lot like his upside might be Bobby Jackson. In which case, handing him the reigns of an NBA team might be extremely frustrating for his first few seasons. That is if he has as much talent as Jackson. If not, he is probably not going to make it as an NBA player.
stop-n-pop (not verified)12:49pm
Jul 8
We'll see if that letter is from Stack. I've emailed the club and I'm waiting to see if it's verified or not. If it is, I think they made 2 gigantic FUBARs with CDR and Chalmers; both of whom are players that could have helped the Wolves with the pick they stupidly traded away. If Rodney Carney ends up on this squad without another trade happening, it will further compound the FUBAR.
Andy G (not verified)01:36pm
Jul 8
I saw Chalmers play a handful of times in his KU career, and always liked him as a college player, and never considered him a high pro-prospect. He was too small to be a two guard, and didn't seem to have any noticeable playmaking ability at the point. That said, SnP is right that he can shoot and defend point guards. With a Wade/Bryant/James/Melo type next to him in the backcourt, I think he could possibly play a long career. With Foye/McCants/Brewer, I'd say it's more doubtful. However, if we lose Bassy, and don't bring in an adequate replacement, we could've used him for the lone fact that we won't have a point guard in certain situations. The Wolves needed to gamble on upside with that pick and Jordan and Walker have upside (as does CDR, to a lesser extent). They both might bust, and it's not going out on a limb at all to predict that both will be out of the league in 4 years. However, 2nd Round picks are worth almost nothing, so I didn't understand the decision to waste an opportunity.
Collin Trude (not verified)04:25pm
Jul 8
Chalmers did outplay Rose in an early summer league game yesterday. I think he was one of the better prospects from a number standpoint according to hollinger. The numbers make him look like a very efficient scorer, who doesn't turn the ball over a whole lot but instead steals a lot of balls from the other team. http://www.draftexpress.com/article/Just-by-the-Numbers--Evaluating-this-year-s-Point-Guard-Crop-2919/
RhinoLove (not verified)08:12am
Jul 8
This is the same team that trades Brandon Roy for Randy Foye, under the assumption that they can turn undersized SG Foye into a PG. If that wasn't a bad use of a #7 pick, how could we justify the reverse logic on a #34 pick? Your not going to get a sure thing PG in the 2nd round. The guy will either have dubious talent and athleticism or he won't be a pure point. I think Chalmers had a ton of value as a #34. More than a few draft boards had him pegged as a late lottery pick. The guy can play, and I would not be surprised if he has a long career. What more can you ask of a 2nd round pick? I agree with you S&P, he could easily be starting in Miami, although playing next to another ballhandler like DWade is an ideal situation for a player like him. He would be less effective with the Wolves (who isn't :)), but we sure could have used him. Stupid, stupid move trading that pick.
Michael W (not verified)04:02pm
Jul 5
I've been a wolves fan for a long time. (Here's a clue as to how long: I remember when Bob McCann was their best post player.) And I've gotta say, I really like the trade for Love and Miller. Check out this lineup: Jefferson Love Gomes Miller Foye You've got great passing at the 3 & 4. You've got good shooting at 1 through 4 to space the floor giving Al plenty of room down low. You've got Foye's penetration when the offense gets stagnant. You have decent speed at all positions and fantastic size everywhere but at the 5. Ball handling could be an issue, but rebounding is good and you can just have Love chuck the ball upcourt. Even better, the bench complements the starters. If they go to a full court trap, you put in bassy for miller or foye. If you're getting killed at the 4 or 5, put Collins in for love and slide al to 4. If their wings are bothering you, put in brewer. If they go small, put the rhino in at 4 and kill 'em on the offensive glass. Sub in shaddy with Collins or bassy to hide their offensive shortcomings. I think that's a sensible rotation that could do some damage next year. And the be
antonymous (not verified)12:16pm
Jul 8
Wolves latest move is that apparently we've gotten Calvin Booth, Rodney Carney, and a protected first-rounder in exchange for the trade exception we received from the Mark Blount deal. Philly is looking to clear cap space for Brand or Josh Smith. Good move, even though both players are non-factors. Taking the cash we got from the Chalmers trade + not signing our second-rounder, and spending it on a future pick isn't bad. Of course, this can't be announced until tomorrow when the cap is announced, but the Wolves sure are piling up bodies, aren't they? I forget exactly what the trade rules are, but I believe that recently-traded players cannot be packaged with other players for 30 days (or maybe 60), but they can be dealt on their own. I don't have any insight as to what any other moves are (if any), but we certainly would be able to package a bit of our younger talent with some of these expiring deals in about a month, right?
Collin Trude (not verified)04:09pm
Jul 8
Calvin Booth? Weird, in ea nba live 2000, I made an entire team out of calvin booth clones with enhanced skills. It was funny to me because Calvin Booth seemed like such an unexceptional player. Even at age 13, I had an odd sense of humor. Now, finally my dream has come true and Calvin Booth is a timberwolf until probably mid preseason at least. Granted, even if he's not a special nba player,, he'd probably beat me in a game of one on one 21 to nothing.

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